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General: Item Stores & Payment Models: Not All RMT is Bad
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
In a new Player Perspectives column that is sure to spark some fiery discussions in its comments, MMORPG.com writer Isabelle Parsley gives her take on the 'free to play' movement, item malls, microtransactions and real money transactions. Check it out, don your fireproof undies and wade into the conversation in the comments.
I usually try to see all sides when it comes to MMO debates, but when I wrote “real money transactions” I was thinking “item stores”; I entirely forgot about the less savory roots of RMT, which is gold selling. Let’s be clearer this time: I don’t approve of gold selling at all. I understand where it comes from and I know why some people feel compelled to use the service, but I think it’s directly detrimental to the games in which it happens and more indirectly bad for the community and industry as a whole.
Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: Item Stores & Payment Models: Not All RMT is Bad.
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Comments
I have no problem with cash shop as long as it's vanity/appearance only. I know a ton of people who'll pay a little extra for a pet or vanity gear. The second it goes buy-2-win, I'll uninstall.
If it helps keep the servers up and content coming, doesn't affect gameplay, why not?
If a game is 'F2P', go nuts.
If a game is P2P, then why the hell should I pay a monthly subscription if I'm not getting all of the content?
The items I'm talking about are outside the normal content. If you want to pay an extra $5 for a golden horse while everybody else rides a black one, why not. I dunno, to me content means gameplay, not eye candy. Guess I'm just a no frills kinda' guy.
"The more payment models we have, the more new games have a chance of succeeding and the more choice we’ll have as players and as customers."
Agreed. I think it's important to remember that MMOs are often more than just a game for a lot of people - they are a hobby and a social circle. In that light, it's easy to see how additional items and services are desirable. For the vanity and customization minded, those extras could be unique gear/looks, reserved areas, VIP access, or Preferred Customer options. For example, the UO High Seas Booster Pack is something that's great for the peopel interested in buying that additional content. People who do not want the content do not have to pay for it. The argument against it is often that your fifteen bucks should cover everything. To that, I've ask if they have the same issue with buying expansion and rarely is there an aswer.
I don't want a hockey jersey when I go to an Islanders game. Other people do. I don't need a bungalo when I go to Wet Republic (although, they are rather badass) but some other people really want them. I'd much rather the people that want those things bear the cost of them and not have that cost divided among the rest of us, which is what would have to happen in order to offer the extras that go into games now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nice write-up Isabelle ! (Steampunk MMO ? - Space:1889 yah !!!). In your post I saw you mentioned grinding. Now grinding is a deliberate design method for the purpose of maintaining a player base in-game for longer periods of time in a sub-based game (EQ and WOW for ex). Also it helps to slow down a younger gamer population who grew up with arcade/console games and want to power thru to end, play around a while then put it aside and go to the store for the next hyped game module. So grinding is a basic system integral to the subscription business model to make money.
Newer subscription games have kept the grind but have made great strides in making the grinding more interesting and fun. Bioware's SWtOR and GW2 etc...have worked hard to make the gameplay (including grinding) more interesting and fun than has been the case so far. Successfully? Don't know yet but have my fingers crossed.
Item shops have a tendency to bring out highly emotional responses from gamers. PvP centric players are especially wary of item shops. Star Trek Online has an item shop and pushes the envelope for in-game stuff and has seemed to be successful with it. MMO companies have to find a balance with the desirable revenue stream vs a negative reaction from a fairly large portion of their player base. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
Gold sellers? They are breaking either the rules or the law or both. That is a moral decision for the seller and the buyer. Everyone makes their own decision on that, don't need or want my preaching.
What we are going to see in the future are the companies walking that RMT line between revenue and player attitude. If a game can do that well, then it may assist itself in remaining longlasting - and profitable. If not - well the 'store' is full of new games.
The trend indicate that all MMO's will have cash shops sooner or later, so I kind of just accept it. If I was younger, I probably would fight against it. But now that I work and make income, these cash shops don't bother me as much as it used to when I couldn't afford anything. I imagine that's one big part of why some like it some don't, as those without money to spend feel they're left out.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Interesting article. Although the whole time reading, I kept thinking it was a written version of Extra Credits with the use of images and overall tone. Heck even some of the pictures were direct ports.
Its not a bad thing, as I really like Extra Credits and their method of reporting. Perhaps MMORPG is starting to take the next step towards more entertaning reporting.
I consider "normal content" to be pretty much everything in the game. If it exists in the game it should be acquired through ingame means, the only exception beign expansion content -- in which case the expansion unlocks the ability to acquire the item ingame.
Charging a subscription and selling "fluff" for extra is double dipping.
I agree. Any content that is in the game that you unlock with your wallet goes against the general principle of subscription rates, in my opinion. The expansion argument is sound though. I suppose it would come down to whether you want your content all at once or if you'd rather pay for it in small chunks. I always feel like I'm getting nickel and dimed if companies go for the small chunks of content.
I agree. But that's the thing, our subscription money does go toward developing those things we do not care to purchase, just as your stadium ticket prices go up in order for them to buy jerseys to sell to people. The companies are making money on both ends, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
If cosmetic items, sold in a typeical subscription game, were not profitable on their own, they would not be added in. It doesn't make sense to take the subscription funds to create additional cosmetic stuff only to lose money on such a venture.
They would either stop adding such items to the cash shop or increase the prices on the items.
To your issue about the subscription price going toward the development of item store features; there's really no data to support that unless you have data or an article that indicates other work for an MMO was getting put off or delayed as a result of the creation of item store gear.
More to the point, if the extra items and service weren't paying for themselves, and it was costing money out of the 15 bucks per month they are getting from players to provide the extras, why would any company make them? This brings us to your jersey example wher they raise ticket prices to make them. That just doesn't make any financial sense, especially when it comes to MMO pricing which hasn't changed for 6 or 7 years.
Is it that you feel that developers are cutting corners on their base content to provide the extras or do you feel the cash shops are operating at a loss and are absorbing funds that would otherwise have gone toward developing the base content?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My feelings on RMT vary according to the game. I can't blame indie developers with low sub numbers looking for a way to bring in extra cash (as long as the items available aren't imbalance causing), I look at it as a sort of tip-jar. I feel like giving them extra money, I'll buy something random from the cash-shop.
On the other side of the scale, you have Blizzard asking $25 for a mount, and it's not like they need the extra revenue - fine to sell them for charity, but to line already brimming pockets? Not so good.
I like the freemium models and I think DDO and LoTRO have really well worked out item shops, unlike some F2P games that extol the dubious virtues of "pay to win" with their options.
So yeah, for me approving or otherwise depends on the way a game chooses to implement RMT. Optional is best, and greed is never good (m'kay?).
Well, I've bought from items shops, usually regretted it, don't really care for them, but face the fact they are inevitable.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't hate how in DDO and LotRO you get the game free and then you can buy new classes and areas. To me that is just like buying exps.
But I won't buy an MMO that sells items on the shops. I don't care if they cosmetic or effect gameplay they both RUIN RUUIIIIINNNN the game's encomy.
If company needs more money to make a better product (game) charge MORE. I would have no problem with playing 30 or even up to 50 a month to play a really good sandbox mmo, but for some reason game companies think that they can sell games at $15 a month (I would be subprized if anyone actually did any market research on it). Personally I look at it like any other product I am willing to pay more for something better.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
You're probably right, perhaps there is no data to support my assertion. It's just the way I feel about it. I do feel like they are cutting corners on normal content. I also feel violated sometimes as the companies try to use psychology to get me to buy something the way they do in some MMO's. I don't play F2P MMOs so I'll use a single player game as an example: In Dragon Age when you get to the main camp where all your companions are and there's a quest giver there to wherever it is (I forget), when you click on him he sends you to the EA store to DL the content. I was thinking:
" You know, they probably already had this content finished, and withheld it from the initial release just to get players to pay more money."
That may not have been the case, but that's how it made me feel. And I've heard horror stories of the things some MMOs do to 'trick' players into buying content and items.
It's just advertising, I guess, like a commercial. I suppose it comes down to my base sense of entitlement when I'm subscribed to something and pay the same as everyone else does, I don't feel like I should have to pay extra to keep up with other players (even socially via fluff content). It's dumb and selfish, I know and if it bothers me that bad, I could just buy the stuff or not play.
That's the best way to deal with it for me, I suppose: just try to ignore it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
LOL! You know, I can understand and empathize with that. I probably would have felt the same way in that DA situation, so I have a bit better understanding of where you're coming from now. Thanks, Pale!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EVE Online is a pay to play, with a fully supported RMT system. You can buy anything for real money and they allow it just fine - characters, ships, modules, it's all perfectly fine.
Probably the decision CCP made that I hate the most.
I was so disgusted by this, that I never bought DA2 - Bioware got several minuses in my book for that stunt. This is the perfect example of why some people hate RMT.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
RMT is basically tricking customers of money.
Here is a brand new phone for only 0.99 (but the phone can only call locally untill you purchase our premium package). Your new car comes with free insurance (provided you only use our service mechanics shops). These are examples, but RMT in games are worse because the fine print is not even show at purchase, it is hidden stuff you won't discover or realize untill later.
It just reminds us of the old too shady commercials, and it puts the companies who offers RMT in the pot of potential shady businesses we have to be wary about. We just don't like to be tricked.
Infact consumer institutions all around the world are constantly working to remove deals such as these in all market segments, to make the real costs more clear for the buyer.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
If the prices, restrictions or additional services were hidden or unavailable prior to playing F2P MMOs then there would be some comparison.
UOGameCodes.com is a public site. Most Eastern F2P games have the shop right on the site. Games like DDO and LOTRO with hybrid models have comparison charts posted on their site so people can see ahead of time what comes with each level of membership. Puzzle Pirates clearly lays out what costs money and what doesn't on their Doubloon servers.
Can you link to some of the F2P games where the costs of items and services are hidden or not present on the site? The normal response to that is about how in MMO x a person would have to pay y thousands to have the best gear. Feel free to go there, if you want, but I'd much rather you answer the question with a couple of links to F2P games where the cost of items and services are hidden or not present on the site.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The point is not whether you can see what is for sale, but rather that you will need these things once you played for awhile, but at when you start playing you are not aware of this. When you find a game you like, you WILL invest time in it - Invested time makes it harder to just quit a game once you realize the real payment cost, hence making it more likely you buy items of the shop = You got tricked.
Buying a pet or other display items are pretty harmless, but many of these so called free to play games can only be played endgame/finished with a purchase. Offcourse many of these games devs know this argument and made the game so that you actually can, but only in theory because it would take thousands of boring grind hours to do it.
And then there is the fact that item shops can change at any time, going from non essential shops with pets to essential purchases for those who want to stay in the high game. There are no guarantees of anything in this world, but an item shop is a sign of intentions. Micro transactions are a harder discussion because you could argue that it is just buying a game in very small bits, but on the other hand it is a hidden expense put on you once you are ... hooked.
Beeing aware of this I really don't fall into that trap anymore, but an example from old times is Conquer Online (not sure it exist still) - In that game it was essential to upgrade your gear to progress, upgrading gear required hmm dragonballs or something which were rare, but fortunately item shops provided dragonballs .. and it was not cheap if you wanted to be in the "endgame". Hmm Balloons TD a little fine tower defense game .. last levels only beatable with a RMT purchase. Settlers 7 (what a dissapointing game) came with only 7 maps or something, the rest were purchasable. Dragon Age had areas and adventures only playable with RMT purchases. Never played Runes of Magic but I am told it is an expensive game to play for real. I am sure others can list many more examples.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Look at what LOL does, im pretty much fine with that style. You can pay now or unlock stuff. and while for the first x level paying might give u an avantage you lose that quickly.
Now i agree even skins should be obtainable but rare. (or fluffy golden ponies)
Atlantica is an unplayble game becuase the cost of playing it is $50+ a month (if your reallyu attmepting to compete)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Hi Isabelle,
I normally agree with you but on this topic I strongly disagree.
"It might even mean games developers get to start concentrating on the fun aspect of their games rather than on ways in which to wring yet another month of subs out of people by extending the daily grind." This, in particular, strikes me as wishful thinking.
What I find most telling is how you originally refused to partake in RMT. You once hated the idea. So, what happened? The idea didn't change. You did. Or rather, I would suggest that you were gradually changed. From my experience - mainly with Turbine and DDO - you have been carefully manipulated and trained to the point of "making peace". For example, the practice of giving out some "free" coins so that players get accustomed to using the item shop is a fantastic form of manipulation. WoW's "trick" of mixing item shop with charity was also a stroke of marketing genius. These and other tricks have been very sucessful at manipulating players like you to "soften" you towards RMT.
I think you should trust your instincts more. You were initially leery of RMT, and even the subscription model. I think this is spot on. The subscription model serves the interests of the developers not the players.
People, you are being farmed. If you just accept everything these companies promote you are just sheep, bleating every now and again but ultimately following the crowd and doing as you are told, buying the products you are told to buy.
I've argued this before but what we really need is a site like this to stand up for the players, a kind of consumer protection perspective.
As far as I can tell, this site is really more about "protecting" the developers. And no, not because this site is being "paid off" but perhaps because the site managers are good friends with many developers, plus the perspective you get of players on these forums doesn't exactly win your heart towards them lol. Nevertheless, there is so little real criticism. It's a shame.
Ah, a post like this gives me a little bit of hope. As you say, consumer institutions do work hard at protecting comsumers in all sorts of markets. This site, unfortunately, doesn't.
Do you know of any consumer protection groups that have looked at MMOs?
I don't mind games that make you pay for ingame content via micro transactions
The only problem with those types of business models is eventually the people who run the servers get greedy and try to squeeze the player base for every drop they can get
Spending money becomes more important than actually playing the game or advancing through it... why work for the best weapon / armor in the game when you can just buy it or in most cases.. *have* to buy it
I think a system that would work well would be paying for access to raid zones.. something like pay 5 dollars for access to a raid zone for a week or something along those lines.
or pay a few bucks for access to the more exciting pvp zones.
Actually selling individual items making the only way to obtain individual items by buying them from the item shop hasn't seemed to work well to me.
Paying for access to specific zones that drop gear or have special pvp rule sets or effects would be interesting to me and not feel like i'm being squeezed for every penny i got..
I've seen people spend hundreds even thousands of dollars just to be great at an item mall type pvp game... it seems crazy to me.. but im not super rich lol
Guess i feel a game shouldn't be about how big your wallet is.