Because devs and non MMO players are determined to turn the genre into a singleplayer RPG with occasional coop with real life friends.
Yep. And for me, it's great. Singleplayer with occasional coop? Good, I can play it. Spending 3 hours a day and 6 hours on weekend building a second life for myself in the game, with second set of human relationships, second job, etc? Sorry, no way I'm playing that. Don't have time.
Because devs and non MMO players are determined to turn the genre into a singleplayer RPG with occasional coop with real life friends.
Yep. And for me, it's great. Singleplayer with occasional coop? Good, I can play it. Spending 3 hours a day and 6 hours on weekend building a second life for myself in the game, with second set of human relationships, second job, etc? Sorry, no way I'm playing that. Don't have time.
Then this genre isn't for you. There are already a ton of games that do what you want. Go play Diablo, or Torchwhatever, and all this coop RPGs that exist. MMORPGs were about living in an immersive virtual world. Not being the hero of a singleplayer story arc with a chat box fused on.
Because devs and non MMO players are determined to turn the genre into a singleplayer RPG with occasional coop with real life friends.
Yep. And for me, it's great. Singleplayer with occasional coop? Good, I can play it. Spending 3 hours a day and 6 hours on weekend building a second life for myself in the game, with second set of human relationships, second job, etc? Sorry, no way I'm playing that. Don't have time.
Then this genre isn't for you. There are already a ton of games that do what you want. Go play Diablo, or Torchwhatever, and all this coop RPGs that exist. MMORPGs were about living in an immersive virtual world. Not being the hero of a singleplayer story arc with a chat box fused on.
{mod edit}
Actually, no, you're not the demographic anymore. Enjoy the end of your ride while it's here.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
City of villians,DC universe and lord the rings online PVP are all games that allow you to play the villian. but yeah most mmo's has you play as the good guy.
This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.
Just about in every mmo you are already guaranteed to beat the game and be the hero. It has been the same concept for as long as I can remember. What if you actually played a mmo where you were not the "hero of the day" right away. What if the end game story consisted of you getting your butt kicked and evil won. How would you feel ?
Today in mmos everything is laid before your eyes. All you have to do is follow the yelow brick road , grind easy tasks and eventually beat the game with little to no challenge at all. Sounds boring doesn't it ? I wish someone would come along and make a mmo that is worthy of a challenge. Like, oh wow I just got pwned because I failed to pay attention or maybe I just got pwned because it actually takes some thought to beat this scenario.
Can't I atleast earn my hero status instead of buying it ?
Consider EVE: 1 server, strongly player-orientated, PvE is designed to be a wealth generator to support player interaction.
No-one is a hero there unless they earn it and they're lucky and they're doing something people care about.
Single-player RPGs do this by letting you be THE HERO. You're the chosen one, the last of an ancient race of powerful mages or whatever. It's you against the world. You have amazing powers, you fight unthinkable odds, and you emerge victorious, and the world is saved.
MMORPGs do this by telling you that you are THE HERO, but you're not. You're the chosen one, the last of an ancient race of powerful mages...just like the other 100,000 people playing. You have amazing powers, can't die, can't win, and the world never really changes. Or if it does, that's just for you and your instance.
In my opinion, MMORPGs should be less about THE HERO and more about the world. Provide chances for individuals or groups to do heroic things, to become known as heroes, but not as THE HERO, the chosen one.
If everyone is a hero, no one is.
Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another
Consider EVE: 1 server, strongly player-orientated, PvE is designed to be a wealth generator to support player interaction.
No-one is a hero there unless they earn it and they're lucky and they're doing something people care about.
This seems like the same thing that happens in WoW. Just because you pretend that you are a hero, does not make you one in the eyes of other players.
Some people are just unable to seperate being a hero in a storyline and being a hero in a multiplayer environment. Just beacue the NPCs hail them as heroes, they delude themselves that they are real heroes.
This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.
Consider EVE: 1 server, strongly player-orientated, PvE is designed to be a wealth generator to support player interaction.
No-one is a hero there unless they earn it and they're lucky and they're doing something people care about.
This seems like the same thing that happens in WoW. Just because you pretend that you are a hero, does not make you one in the eyes of other players.
Some people are just unable to seperate being a hero in a storyline and being a hero in a multiplayer environment. Just beacue the NPCs hail them as heroes, they delude themselves that they are real heroes.
Agreed, heroes can be made in the eyes of the players in any MMORPG, but in a themepark the NPC's can artifically treat you like your special somehow. (even if you are hero # 34598 on the XYZ shard)
I play EVE, I am not heroic in any way really, (in EVE terms), but I do enjoy living in that world regardless
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Consider EVE: 1 server, strongly player-orientated, PvE is designed to be a wealth generator to support player interaction.
No-one is a hero there unless they earn it and they're lucky and they're doing something people care about.
This seems like the same thing that happens in WoW. Just because you pretend that you are a hero, does not make you one in the eyes of other players.
Some people are just unable to seperate being a hero in a storyline and being a hero in a multiplayer environment. Just beacue the NPCs hail them as heroes, they delude themselves that they are real heroes.
Agreed, heroes can be made in the eyes of the players in any MMORPG, but in a themepark the NPC's can artifically treat you like your special somehow. (even if you are hero # 34598 on the XYZ shard)
I play EVE, I am not heroic in any way really, (in EVE terms), but I do enjoy living in that world regardless
When everyone is "a hero", then no-one really is. I will probably never be a hero in EVE, but at least I have a chance of being one.
Although these days, I seem to prefer being a villain... but again, at least EVE lets me do that too, unlike so many MMOs these days.
When everyone is "a hero", then no-one really is. I will probably never be a hero in EVE, but at least I have a chance of being one.
Precisely.
That's why MMORPGs those days are so boring.
The fun and the challenge is to try to become a hero.
If there is no challenge and everyone and their dog can become a hero, what is the point in playing a game?
In every game there should be losers and winners, if everyone is a winner then the game is just not worth it (This is true for all WoW clones that's why people desert them after the first month of release)
This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.
This.
Guess what? If WoW became a deep sandbox almost overnight, it'd lose 3/4 of its playerbase, too. What happened to SWG is not a triumph for those who believe their MMO ideology is infalliable and the only way to go; it's really a lesson of what not to do to your game: change the core mechanics.
It's part of why themeparks are so addictive, and it's also conversely why they're so ungodly boring for MMO vets who are more self-aware.
When someone has no sense of accomplishment from their daily life, they turn to other things. MMOs, particular themeparks, are great at giving a false sense of accomplishment.
Don't take the above statement the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with the above so long as it doesn't turn into an unhealthy addiction and substitute for reality.
Back to the point, when a game is designed to give players the sense that they are the hero through quests and NPCs, it inflates that false sense of accomplishment much more. This ceases to work for players who realize the paradox of the design: When everyone is 'the hero', and accomplishes the same tasks, then noone really is.
That's why themepark MMOs are so popular, because they're addictive from the degree of false sense of accomplishment they give. That's also why sandbox MMOs aren't as popular, in part because NPCs aren't constantly giving players praise for completing what in actuality are very similar ingame tasks.
This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.
This.
Guess what? If WoW became a deep sandbox almost overnight, it'd lose 3/4 of its playerbase, too. What happened to SWG is not a triumph for those who believe their MMO ideology is infalliable and the only way to go; it's really a lesson of what not to do to your game: change the core mechanics.
The standing point is there are a great many people out there who enjoyed not being the hero, enough to sustain an entire genre.
All you people talking "when everyone is a hero, no one is" is taking this shit way to far.
Its just games people. Stop trying to get all deep and philisophical on us. Seriously.
Its a GAME. Sure, i agree there should be more mmorpgs that allow us the choice to be good or evil(Faxion sort of comes to mind since most believe angels = good, demons = evil so in a way faxion allows you that choice but not really...)
But to say 'when everyone kills the Lich King, no one really did anything' is kinda stupid when you look at the fact that you're playing a mostly scripted game. Just think about it for a second...
Regardless if you killed him or not, no one really did anything...
All you people talking "when everyone is a hero, no one is" is taking this shit way to far.
Its just games people. Stop trying to get all deep and philisophical on us. Seriously.
Its a GAME. Sure, i agree there should be more mmorpgs that allow us the choice to be good or evil(Faxion sort of comes to mind since most believe angels = good, demons = evil so in a way faxion allows you that choice but not really...)
But to say 'when everyone kills the Lich King, no one really did anything' is kinda stupid when you look at the fact that you're playing a mostly scripted game. Just think about it for a second...
Regardless if you killed him or not, no one really did anything...
You're the one taking it too far. Obviously we realize it's a game.
We're talking in the context of the game world. We're quite aware that there isn't actually a real Lich King that gets killed.
However, in the context of the game world, there is. The lack of any real meaning is to be taken in that context. If there is only one Lich King, and once he is killed he is gone, then there is some real meaning there. If he just respawns and you can farm him, then there isn't.
Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another
Comments
Because devs and non MMO players are determined to turn the genre into a singleplayer RPG with occasional coop with real life friends.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Err ... unless you are in the top raiding guild of the server, nope, you dont "win" a MMO.
You are just another one of many.
How so?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yep. And for me, it's great. Singleplayer with occasional coop? Good, I can play it. Spending 3 hours a day and 6 hours on weekend building a second life for myself in the game, with second set of human relationships, second job, etc? Sorry, no way I'm playing that. Don't have time.
This is all I ever wanted from a game. Non-mmo players? ooh, please... elitism at its best!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Then this genre isn't for you. There are already a ton of games that do what you want. Go play Diablo, or Torchwhatever, and all this coop RPGs that exist. MMORPGs were about living in an immersive virtual world. Not being the hero of a singleplayer story arc with a chat box fused on.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Actually, no, you're not the demographic anymore. Enjoy the end of your ride while it's here.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Whatever ya need to tell yourself. Just enjoy it.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
City of villians,DC universe and lord the rings online PVP are all games that allow you to play the villian. but yeah most mmo's has you play as the good guy.
This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.
Consider EVE: 1 server, strongly player-orientated, PvE is designed to be a wealth generator to support player interaction.
No-one is a hero there unless they earn it and they're lucky and they're doing something people care about.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Heh ,why not be a building then? Always standing in the same place , doing nothing but enjoying the view ?
Here's the problem:
Games should allow you chances to be heroic.
Single-player RPGs do this by letting you be THE HERO. You're the chosen one, the last of an ancient race of powerful mages or whatever. It's you against the world. You have amazing powers, you fight unthinkable odds, and you emerge victorious, and the world is saved.
MMORPGs do this by telling you that you are THE HERO, but you're not. You're the chosen one, the last of an ancient race of powerful mages...just like the other 100,000 people playing. You have amazing powers, can't die, can't win, and the world never really changes. Or if it does, that's just for you and your instance.
In my opinion, MMORPGs should be less about THE HERO and more about the world. Provide chances for individuals or groups to do heroic things, to become known as heroes, but not as THE HERO, the chosen one.
If everyone is a hero, no one is.
Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside
Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another
This seems like the same thing that happens in WoW. Just because you pretend that you are a hero, does not make you one in the eyes of other players.
Some people are just unable to seperate being a hero in a storyline and being a hero in a multiplayer environment. Just beacue the NPCs hail them as heroes, they delude themselves that they are real heroes.
This.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Agreed, heroes can be made in the eyes of the players in any MMORPG, but in a themepark the NPC's can artifically treat you like your special somehow. (even if you are hero # 34598 on the XYZ shard)
I play EVE, I am not heroic in any way really, (in EVE terms), but I do enjoy living in that world regardless
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Correction, everyone wants to be the ANTI-Hero. Preteens rebelling against daddy cause he wouldn't pay for their cell/internet bill.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
When everyone is "a hero", then no-one really is. I will probably never be a hero in EVE, but at least I have a chance of being one.
Although these days, I seem to prefer being a villain... but again, at least EVE lets me do that too, unlike so many MMOs these days.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Precisely.
That's why MMORPGs those days are so boring.
The fun and the challenge is to try to become a hero.
If there is no challenge and everyone and their dog can become a hero, what is the point in playing a game?
In every game there should be losers and winners, if everyone is a winner then the game is just not worth it (This is true for all WoW clones that's why people desert them after the first month of release)
Guess what? If WoW became a deep sandbox almost overnight, it'd lose 3/4 of its playerbase, too. What happened to SWG is not a triumph for those who believe their MMO ideology is infalliable and the only way to go; it's really a lesson of what not to do to your game: change the core mechanics.
It's part of why themeparks are so addictive, and it's also conversely why they're so ungodly boring for MMO vets who are more self-aware.
When someone has no sense of accomplishment from their daily life, they turn to other things. MMOs, particular themeparks, are great at giving a false sense of accomplishment.
Don't take the above statement the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with the above so long as it doesn't turn into an unhealthy addiction and substitute for reality.
Back to the point, when a game is designed to give players the sense that they are the hero through quests and NPCs, it inflates that false sense of accomplishment much more. This ceases to work for players who realize the paradox of the design: When everyone is 'the hero', and accomplishes the same tasks, then noone really is.
That's why themepark MMOs are so popular, because they're addictive from the degree of false sense of accomplishment they give. That's also why sandbox MMOs aren't as popular, in part because NPCs aren't constantly giving players praise for completing what in actuality are very similar ingame tasks.
The standing point is there are a great many people out there who enjoyed not being the hero, enough to sustain an entire genre.
Darkfall Travelogues!
All you people talking "when everyone is a hero, no one is" is taking this shit way to far.
Its just games people. Stop trying to get all deep and philisophical on us. Seriously.
Its a GAME. Sure, i agree there should be more mmorpgs that allow us the choice to be good or evil(Faxion sort of comes to mind since most believe angels = good, demons = evil so in a way faxion allows you that choice but not really...)
But to say 'when everyone kills the Lich King, no one really did anything' is kinda stupid when you look at the fact that you're playing a mostly scripted game. Just think about it for a second...
Regardless if you killed him or not, no one really did anything...
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
You're the one taking it too far. Obviously we realize it's a game.
We're talking in the context of the game world. We're quite aware that there isn't actually a real Lich King that gets killed.
However, in the context of the game world, there is. The lack of any real meaning is to be taken in that context. If there is only one Lich King, and once he is killed he is gone, then there is some real meaning there. If he just respawns and you can farm him, then there isn't.
Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside
Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another