Random loot is so much better than what we have in MMOs. Diablo had a really clever itemisation system. I really loved farming for items in Diablo.
Too bad MMOs have fixed loot tables and time lockouts and a few other things which ruin all the fun. Althought GW1 was fairly similar to Diablo.
Crafting only gets in the way of killing and blowing stuff. Unnecessary time sink ^^
The problem i have with player made stuff is the fact that once again you know what you are getting before you even get it.
you grind up mats to make a item that everybody else on the server is makeing, everybody looks the same and you are right back to standing around with " the best " items bored.
with random loot ( random stats on loot ) there never is " the best " you are allways searching for better
Diablo imo had a very good loot system, I wish we would be seeing more of it in MMOs.
Yup I agree, that loot system would work pretty well in all the loot heavy mmorpgs of today. People would be having more of a good time for sure. No more knowing ahead time what your going to get, this is fun sign me up. It would make raiding or killing of such mobs a more enjoyable experience like it was in Diablo.
I played Asheron's Call 2 as my first mmo and it sounds like they used the same random loot used in the original. Admittedly i loved that as well. Guild Wars also sorta has it right as well, but it was just a bit more limited in itemization and i think implemetning green items was a step backwards from this sadly.
But yeah i usually have terrible luck in these games for getting loot and winning loot rolls in groups, so i look back on AC2 fondly. Every once in a great while giving me something off a minor mob that was in my way that turned out to have an epic drop. It would make my week.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
seriously im sorry your first MMO was WoW.
and i honestly dont mean that in a bad way, im just sorry people never got to experience real MMO's back before " end game " and " epic gear " meant everything.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
There were set items in Diablo as well. Set items:
- lead to limited choice because of the bonuses they provide
- let people know which the "best" items are. In WoW I never had to think twice about which item I want to equip. It was always super easy to tell which one is better whereas in Diablo you had to see which one best fits your build.
- everybody looks the same because they are all wearing set items
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
There is a way around this problem.
On a side note, Diablo actually had more stats than WoW. In WoW, items are mostly stat sticks + agi + str etc. You will rarely see unique effects on items. Set items give only 1 or 2 unique effects if you have the whole thing. In Diablo there were so many stats to look at it which were more than +1 agi/str/int etc.
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I disagree with end game raiding and such, but what's not to say the systems can't work together? Asheron's Call had quest items. People are assuming random loot were the only items in the game. Some were collection related, that took weeks or even months to complete. The resulting item would be a cool set of armor or some powerful weapon. The difficulty wasn't simply a raid that you did from start to finish in one sitting. The dungeons were cool, had puzzles or tricks sometimes, and at one point took large groups to complete similarly to raids. It was something you felt really accomplished after getting, because there may have been several steps to it. Also, someone above mentioned all your armor being mismatched, and that can be solved with a simple dye system. Asheron's Call again surpasses modern games because it had an excellent, but very simple dye system. It involved a bit of tradeskills, and finding dye plants scattered around the world, some rarer than others. I think the only time I've ever had mismatched armor was when I was a noob, or when I played on the Darktide server.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
seriously im sorry your first MMO was WoW.
and i honestly dont mean that in a bad way, im just sorry people never got to experience real MMO's back before " end game " and " epic gear " meant everything.
not sure where you got WoW being my first mmo from my post but okay...
@fivo - wasn't aware diablo had set items(been to long since i played), i think i'm mostly posting without really understanding this random loot idea. was it that any mob you killed could drop a set piece(given ofcourse apporiate range of levels. ie. a max lvl set piece of loot would of course not drop from a lvl 1 spider) or only the bosses/mini bosses dropped the rarer/epic quality pieces like set gear
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
seriously im sorry your first MMO was WoW.
and i honestly dont mean that in a bad way, im just sorry people never got to experience real MMO's back before " end game " and " epic gear " meant everything.
not sure where you got WoW being my first mmo from my post but okay...
@fivo - wasn't aware diablo had set items(been to long since i played), i think i'm mostly posting without really understanding this random loot idea. was it that any mob you killed could drop a set piece(given ofcourse apporiate range of levels. ie. a max lvl set piece of loot would of course not drop from a lvl 1 spider) or only the bosses/mini bosses dropped the rarer/epic quality pieces like set gear
think of it like this, when out exploreing killing mobs you get items that drop. It could be lets say a sword. you get lets say 4 swords that drop, each one has random stats. one could have damage 5-10 with a buff on it that gives stats to sword skill, or a % to your attack or a % to your melee Defense, all these stats are random.
the higher the level mobs the better the stats are but still random. you may get a sword that is 5-10 with +20% attack another one that is 6-15 +5% attack and so on and so on the random part of this is really endless. not to mention the color and the way the sword looks is also part of it.
the bottom line of random loot is this. you never have " the best " gear your allways looking out for that next item that could improve your collection of swords or daggers, armor, helms what ever it may be.
you dont go online and look up the best weapon in the game find wich raid boss drops it and do that raid over and over till you get this item. games like that are full of people standing around in full epic the best everything bored out of their mind because there is nothing left to do.
I know its not for everybody, alot of people like the WoW/Rift style of raid get what you are looking for and be done with it, but to each their own i guess.
sorry if i offended you for asumeing WoW was your first MMO i just figured it might be sense you said random loot was so dumb in your other post.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
seriously im sorry your first MMO was WoW.
and i honestly dont mean that in a bad way, im just sorry people never got to experience real MMO's back before " end game " and " epic gear " meant everything.
not sure where you got WoW being my first mmo from my post but okay...
@fivo - wasn't aware diablo had set items(been to long since i played), i think i'm mostly posting without really understanding this random loot idea. was it that any mob you killed could drop a set piece(given ofcourse apporiate range of levels. ie. a max lvl set piece of loot would of course not drop from a lvl 1 spider) or only the bosses/mini bosses dropped the rarer/epic quality pieces like set gear
think of it like this, when out exploreing killing mobs you get items that drop. It could be lets say a sword. you get lets say 4 swords that drop, each one has random stats. one could have damage 5-10 with a buff on it that gives stats to sword skill, or a % to your attack or a % to your melee Defense, all these stats are random.
the higher the level mobs the better the stats are but still random. you may get a sword that is 5-10 with +20% attack another one that is 6-15 +5% attack and so on and so on the random part of this is really endless. not to mention the color and the way the sword looks is also part of it.
the bottom line of random loot is this. you never have " the best " gear your allways looking out for that next item that could improve your collection of swords or daggers, armor, helms what ever it may be.
you dont go online and look up the best weapon in the game find wich raid boss drops it and do that raid over and over till you get this item. games like that are full of people standing around in full epic the best everything bored out of their mind because there is nothing left to do.
I know its not for everybody, alot of people like the WoW/Rift style of raid get what you are looking for and be done with it, but to each their own i guess.
sorry if i offended you for asumeing WoW was your first MMO i just figured it might be sense you said random loot was so dumb in your other post.
oooohhhh, you see i didn't understand. personally i dont believe you guys should call it 'random loot' because what is loot? its the item itself that is dropped so when you say random loot, i assumed random loot being dropped. and that you were hating WoW's system since how Wow had set loot tables
but in actuality you were talking about the STATS being random not the loot. that puts things in perspective for me now and i can see where you guys are coming from. and i would say that isn't such a bad idea, but personally i don't have much of a problem with the current system WoW uses either, but i understand the appeal for this random stat-idea for loot, and it would make things more interesting since not everyone would be using the same exact gear for their builds and would make things a bit more interesting in pvp i would think.
Random Loot is the way to go, unfortunately developers still don't have a clue even after so many years of failed raid/fixed loot games (yes, i do count WoW as a failure because it is a boring and ugly MMO). Fixed Loot creates so many problems.
Fixed Loot Pro: You know what you get. Thats it, nothing else.
Fixed Loot Con: Most of the time you get nothing as drop rates are horrendous because the developers want you to keep paying to play and get that item. Mobs get heavily camped. Instances and Raids have to be created beacause of the camping issues. Raids need to be on a timer to prevent people spamming them all day. Raids become the end game activity, mindlessly running instances like a friggin' job with a guild that has outlandish rules on item distribution.
Fixed loot just creates problems after problem. It's a bad idea.
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Random Loot is the way to go, unfortunately developers still don't have a clue even after so many years of failed raid/fixed loot games (yes, i do count WoW as a failure because it is a boring and ugly MMO). Fixed Loot creates so many problems.
Fixed Loot Pro: You know what you get. Thats it, nothing else.
Fixed Loot Con: Most of the time you get nothing as drop rates are horrendous because the developers want you to keep paying to play and get that item. Mobs get heavily camped. Instances and Raids have to be created beacause of the camping issues. Raids need to be on a timer to prevent people spamming them all day. Raids become the end game activity, mindlessly running instances like a friggin' job with a guild that has outlandish rules on item distribution.
Fixed loot just creates problems after problem. It's a bad idea.
lol ummm...random loot con is the same as fixed loot con, most of the time you get nothing of use to you. and no matter what game ur playing, killing an 'elite' or 'boss/miniboss' mob will reward you with higher quality than normal gear, even if it was random dropping, the chance to get a higher quality piece of gear would be higher, so mobs would still be camped.
instances and raids would still be used if a regular mmorpg like WoW were to use random loot. Tell me what end game activity there is if not for Raids? I think i'm gonna start askign people this from now on. Aside from pvp, what other pve end game can there be if not for Raids?
I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
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I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
that was one of the stupidest things WoW could have done. it makes fighting the boss anti-climactic to get some special currency to which you then take to an npc who has all powerful gear for all classes and will only give you 1 piece for said special currency.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
Actually, you naild it. The "problem" the OP is trying to solve isn't one of randomized loot, but rather what is really needed is an end game that doesn't involve ever increasing tiers of raid instances.
In the standard MMO end game, developers have to create standardized loot in order to ensure the player base has a clear path of what they need to accomplish before attempting to advance to the next higher tier. Can't really randomize the loot, would be almost impossible to properly balance the raid encounters.
I suspect that while AC might have had raiding, it was nothing as structured as the dungeons and instances of WOW and Rift. The "gear set mentality" that you mention is a vital part of the equation in current MMORPG design.
As for visually appealing gear, meh, never was too concerned about how I looked, I'll wear pretty much anything as long as the stats are good and why there's any other color of armor besides dark black I'll never know. (DAOC veterans know what I'm talking about) But as someone mentioned, a good dye system goes a long way to making visually appealing armor sets and no, I don't want to look like the other 2K Druids on my server.
Regarding randomized drops of high level gear in the open world I'll disagree there too. Lineage 1 had it, you could be farming level 18 mobs on your level 15 character and suddenly get the Sword of Whoopass and suddently you had something really valuable to sell, to me it made the game much more fun.
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oooohhhh, you see i didn't understand. personally i dont believe you guys should call it 'random loot' because what is loot? its the item itself that is dropped so when you say random loot, i assumed random loot being dropped. and that you were hating WoW's system since how Wow had set loot tables
but in actuality you were talking about the STATS being random not the loot. that puts things in perspective for me now and i can see where you guys are coming from. and i would say that isn't such a bad idea, but personally i don't have much of a problem with the current system WoW uses either, but i understand the appeal for this random stat-idea for loot, and it would make things more interesting since not everyone would be using the same exact gear for their builds and would make things a bit more interesting in pvp i would think.
There is another thing. In Diablo you had a lot of unique items which had fixed stats with some variability for example it can have 5-25 strength but it is fixed within these limits. Unique items (similar to epic items in WoW) required the mob to be a certain level to be able to drop it. You won't see Tyrael's Might (the rarest item in Diablo with a drop chance of 0.00002% I think ) drop from a random mob. I think that only the last few bosses in the game could actually drop it.
However, some lower level unique items can be found from a random thrash mob but the chances were much lower.
Also it is really hard to get the item YOU actually want. Lets say you are running Mephisto on Hell, he can drop:
1. Any unique item up to his monster level. It is something around 500+ unique items.
2. He can drop any set item in the game.
3. He can drop an almost infinite number of magic or rare items which have random stats.
4. He can drop vendor trash like potions, scrolls etc.
5. Drop any rune up to his monster level.
He can drop any of these items. So how do you get the shield you actually want? You don't really cause it is really hard to get the item you want as he can drop sooooooooooooooo many items. Then throw in stat variability say you want a Death Phantom's Shard with 30% cold skill damage (varies between 15-30%) then you must be really lucky. I have played Diablo for a very long time and I never actually got that item with 30% or other items like Tyrael's Might. It is more likely that a plane will crash into you while you are walking down the street than to actually get Tyrael's Might
Originally posted by Kyleran
Actually, you naild it. The "problem" the OP is trying to solve isn't one of randomized loot, but rather what is really needed is an end game that doesn't involve ever increasing tiers of raid instances.
Tiers is the worst design ever imo. This limits you to a very small number of zones/dungeons given your current gear level. Look at Guild Wars. That game did it right. There are many zones, elite missions, mission, quests and dungeons for max level so you have a huge variety. Then again you also have hardmode which makes every mission/zone/dungeon challenging for max levels characters. Now they have began to add hard mode quests.
Imo horizontal spread of zones/dungeons + random loot + fixed loot (unique items/sets etc) is it a much nicer system than what we have in most MMOs.
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Are we talking Kinder Suprise type of random loot where most of the toys you get are pretty cute or are we talking Magic the Gathering type of random loot where you can open a dozen boosters and get crap rares and commons you already have boxes full of?
Sounds to me your wanting to replace a bad gear grind for a worse gear grind.
DDO had a random loot system in a sense but they had named items that your constanty grinding n grinding n grinding in raids. Course these were named items but it does follow a random loot system as you gan get non named items with stats.
Personally I hate gear grinds and much rather just have a mechanic that allows more for fun and not some gear grind mechanic,
I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
that was one of the stupidest things WoW could have done. it makes fighting the boss anti-climactic to get some special currency to which you then take to an npc who has all powerful gear for all classes and will only give you 1 piece for said special currency.
thats so lame.
So instead you'd prefer a mechanic that forces you to do the same encounter over n over n over n over again on the same toon? I prefer the currency with limitations as it'll allow you to use alts more often that can spicen up you play time, while you can swap to a different toon in you prefered style but when you have a main you want the best gear possible which forces you to always play the same toon.
BC was pretty spot on as it allowed a few choice pieces for that "just won't friggin drop" kind of gear, however Wrath they went ridiculously overboard.
Ive never personally liked the week long lockouts and stuff, thats just stupid to me, it spoils the fun. Not because i want to farm all day long and get loot in one sitting but because i enjoy killing monsters and bosses. Only being able to fight a mob once a week has always just been real stupid to me.
I agree. It's like wanting to PvP for a few hours since I finally have time, and then spending half of that time in a queue. /logout
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I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
that was one of the stupidest things WoW could have done. it makes fighting the boss anti-climactic to get some special currency to which you then take to an npc who has all powerful gear for all classes and will only give you 1 piece for said special currency.
thats so lame.
While I feel you could have presented that better, I agree that from both a game design and incentive standpoint, any offer of a usable item is a more appealing reward than money, as money is viewed as a means whereas an item is viewed as an end.
Less rewarding boss drops are currency, materials and junk loot. Average rewarding items are consumables and items that can be refined to materials. More rewarding boss drops are rare materials (completion items), usable gear.
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I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
that was one of the stupidest things WoW could have done. it makes fighting the boss anti-climactic to get some special currency to which you then take to an npc who has all powerful gear for all classes and will only give you 1 piece for said special currency.
thats so lame.
Yeah it's stupid, and really immersion breaking.
You are a hero in the world, and you have just been told that you need to destroy Evil Dude, and this guy is really really evil, he wants to destroy the entire world. Now to be able to kill Evil Dude you need to collect magical armor and weapons, but a very good friend and ally of the guy who just told you to go and kill Evil Dude have everything you need, but he won't give it to you, and would rather risk the end of the world then parting with his dear magical armor. But he agrees to give it to you if you can kill all of Evil Dudes henchmen, who are almost as powerful as Evil Dude himself.
If this guy is one of the good guys, it makes more sense if he just gave you everything you asked for, so you can complete the task at hand.
Oh and yeah, im in favor of loot being random. I think it would give you a better incentive to do what you find fun, rather than killing this one boss over and over until you get that special item.
Comments
Random loot is so much better than what we have in MMOs. Diablo had a really clever itemisation system. I really loved farming for items in Diablo.
Too bad MMOs have fixed loot tables and time lockouts and a few other things which ruin all the fun. Althought GW1 was fairly similar to Diablo.
Crafting only gets in the way of killing and blowing stuff. Unnecessary time sink ^^
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The problem i have with player made stuff is the fact that once again you know what you are getting before you even get it.
you grind up mats to make a item that everybody else on the server is makeing, everybody looks the same and you are right back to standing around with " the best " items bored.
with random loot ( random stats on loot ) there never is " the best " you are allways searching for better
Yup I agree, that loot system would work pretty well in all the loot heavy mmorpgs of today. People would be having more of a good time for sure. No more knowing ahead time what your going to get, this is fun sign me up. It would make raiding or killing of such mobs a more enjoyable experience like it was in Diablo.
Definitely agree. Also would like to see it where you can do any of the content, even without "uber" gear.
For myself, I am done with the gear grind system like WoW and Rift have. I will never play that kind of game again.
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I played Asheron's Call 2 as my first mmo and it sounds like they used the same random loot used in the original. Admittedly i loved that as well. Guild Wars also sorta has it right as well, but it was just a bit more limited in itemization and i think implemetning green items was a step backwards from this sadly.
But yeah i usually have terrible luck in these games for getting loot and winning loot rolls in groups, so i look back on AC2 fondly. Every once in a great while giving me something off a minor mob that was in my way that turned out to have an epic drop. It would make my week.
If you want to play Diablo, just go ahead. I swear I wont stop you.
Random loot is a horrible idea for end game raiding. Sure it may have worked for Diablo but Diablo is a far cry different game than say WoW.
The reason its a horrible idea is because generally in end game raids you farm the bosses for your set gear or tier gear. Which is pieces of a set for the different classes. Random loot dropping means getting rid of the set gear mentality completely. It also means being unable to have visually appealing gear, as in they wont match at all since they're not part of a set. It's a stupid idea in short.
Not even to mention if it was random, then you could get the same super mega duper epic from killing a mob in a normal map that you get from killing an end game raid boss? That's just stupid, though i'm sure that's probably not what you meant by random but i didnt really read through this thread that much tbh cause the idea itself is just dumb for a pve/end game raid focused game.
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seriously im sorry your first MMO was WoW.
and i honestly dont mean that in a bad way, im just sorry people never got to experience real MMO's back before " end game " and " epic gear " meant everything.
On a side note, Diablo actually had more stats than WoW. In WoW, items are mostly stat sticks + agi + str etc. You will rarely see unique effects on items. Set items give only 1 or 2 unique effects if you have the whole thing. In Diablo there were so many stats to look at it which were more than +1 agi/str/int etc.
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I disagree with end game raiding and such, but what's not to say the systems can't work together? Asheron's Call had quest items. People are assuming random loot were the only items in the game. Some were collection related, that took weeks or even months to complete. The resulting item would be a cool set of armor or some powerful weapon. The difficulty wasn't simply a raid that you did from start to finish in one sitting. The dungeons were cool, had puzzles or tricks sometimes, and at one point took large groups to complete similarly to raids. It was something you felt really accomplished after getting, because there may have been several steps to it. Also, someone above mentioned all your armor being mismatched, and that can be solved with a simple dye system. Asheron's Call again surpasses modern games because it had an excellent, but very simple dye system. It involved a bit of tradeskills, and finding dye plants scattered around the world, some rarer than others. I think the only time I've ever had mismatched armor was when I was a noob, or when I played on the Darktide server.
not sure where you got WoW being my first mmo from my post but okay...
@fivo - wasn't aware diablo had set items(been to long since i played), i think i'm mostly posting without really understanding this random loot idea. was it that any mob you killed could drop a set piece(given ofcourse apporiate range of levels. ie. a max lvl set piece of loot would of course not drop from a lvl 1 spider) or only the bosses/mini bosses dropped the rarer/epic quality pieces like set gear
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think of it like this, when out exploreing killing mobs you get items that drop. It could be lets say a sword. you get lets say 4 swords that drop, each one has random stats. one could have damage 5-10 with a buff on it that gives stats to sword skill, or a % to your attack or a % to your melee Defense, all these stats are random.
the higher the level mobs the better the stats are but still random. you may get a sword that is 5-10 with +20% attack another one that is 6-15 +5% attack and so on and so on the random part of this is really endless. not to mention the color and the way the sword looks is also part of it.
the bottom line of random loot is this. you never have " the best " gear your allways looking out for that next item that could improve your collection of swords or daggers, armor, helms what ever it may be.
you dont go online and look up the best weapon in the game find wich raid boss drops it and do that raid over and over till you get this item. games like that are full of people standing around in full epic the best everything bored out of their mind because there is nothing left to do.
I know its not for everybody, alot of people like the WoW/Rift style of raid get what you are looking for and be done with it, but to each their own i guess.
sorry if i offended you for asumeing WoW was your first MMO i just figured it might be sense you said random loot was so dumb in your other post.
oooohhhh, you see i didn't understand. personally i dont believe you guys should call it 'random loot' because what is loot? its the item itself that is dropped so when you say random loot, i assumed random loot being dropped. and that you were hating WoW's system since how Wow had set loot tables
but in actuality you were talking about the STATS being random not the loot. that puts things in perspective for me now and i can see where you guys are coming from. and i would say that isn't such a bad idea, but personally i don't have much of a problem with the current system WoW uses either, but i understand the appeal for this random stat-idea for loot, and it would make things more interesting since not everyone would be using the same exact gear for their builds and would make things a bit more interesting in pvp i would think.
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Random Loot is the way to go, unfortunately developers still don't have a clue even after so many years of failed raid/fixed loot games (yes, i do count WoW as a failure because it is a boring and ugly MMO). Fixed Loot creates so many problems.
Fixed Loot Pro: You know what you get. Thats it, nothing else.
Fixed Loot Con: Most of the time you get nothing as drop rates are horrendous because the developers want you to keep paying to play and get that item. Mobs get heavily camped. Instances and Raids have to be created beacause of the camping issues. Raids need to be on a timer to prevent people spamming them all day. Raids become the end game activity, mindlessly running instances like a friggin' job with a guild that has outlandish rules on item distribution.
Fixed loot just creates problems after problem. It's a bad idea.
lol ummm...random loot con is the same as fixed loot con, most of the time you get nothing of use to you. and no matter what game ur playing, killing an 'elite' or 'boss/miniboss' mob will reward you with higher quality than normal gear, even if it was random dropping, the chance to get a higher quality piece of gear would be higher, so mobs would still be camped.
instances and raids would still be used if a regular mmorpg like WoW were to use random loot. Tell me what end game activity there is if not for Raids? I think i'm gonna start askign people this from now on. Aside from pvp, what other pve end game can there be if not for Raids?
btw nice going on 666 posts on friday the 13th
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I'm more of a fan of bosses dropping special currency then buy what you want.
that was one of the stupidest things WoW could have done. it makes fighting the boss anti-climactic to get some special currency to which you then take to an npc who has all powerful gear for all classes and will only give you 1 piece for said special currency.
thats so lame.
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Actually, you naild it. The "problem" the OP is trying to solve isn't one of randomized loot, but rather what is really needed is an end game that doesn't involve ever increasing tiers of raid instances.
In the standard MMO end game, developers have to create standardized loot in order to ensure the player base has a clear path of what they need to accomplish before attempting to advance to the next higher tier. Can't really randomize the loot, would be almost impossible to properly balance the raid encounters.
I suspect that while AC might have had raiding, it was nothing as structured as the dungeons and instances of WOW and Rift. The "gear set mentality" that you mention is a vital part of the equation in current MMORPG design.
As for visually appealing gear, meh, never was too concerned about how I looked, I'll wear pretty much anything as long as the stats are good and why there's any other color of armor besides dark black I'll never know. (DAOC veterans know what I'm talking about) But as someone mentioned, a good dye system goes a long way to making visually appealing armor sets and no, I don't want to look like the other 2K Druids on my server.
Regarding randomized drops of high level gear in the open world I'll disagree there too. Lineage 1 had it, you could be farming level 18 mobs on your level 15 character and suddenly get the Sword of Whoopass and suddently you had something really valuable to sell, to me it made the game much more fun.
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There is another thing. In Diablo you had a lot of unique items which had fixed stats with some variability for example it can have 5-25 strength but it is fixed within these limits. Unique items (similar to epic items in WoW) required the mob to be a certain level to be able to drop it. You won't see Tyrael's Might (the rarest item in Diablo with a drop chance of 0.00002% I think
) drop from a random mob. I think that only the last few bosses in the game could actually drop it.
However, some lower level unique items can be found from a random thrash mob but the chances were much lower.
Also it is really hard to get the item YOU actually want. Lets say you are running Mephisto on Hell, he can drop:
1. Any unique item up to his monster level. It is something around 500+ unique items.
2. He can drop any set item in the game.
3. He can drop an almost infinite number of magic or rare items which have random stats.
4. He can drop vendor trash like potions, scrolls etc.
5. Drop any rune up to his monster level.
He can drop any of these items. So how do you get the shield you actually want? You don't really cause it is really hard to get the item you want as he can drop sooooooooooooooo many items. Then throw in stat variability say you want a Death Phantom's Shard with 30% cold skill damage (varies between 15-30%) then you must be really lucky. I have played Diablo for a very long time and I never actually got that item with 30% or other items like Tyrael's Might. It is more likely that a plane will crash into you while you are walking down the street than to actually get Tyrael's Might
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Are we talking Kinder Suprise type of random loot where most of the toys you get are pretty cute or are we talking Magic the Gathering type of random loot where you can open a dozen boosters and get crap rares and commons you already have boxes full of?
Sounds to me your wanting to replace a bad gear grind for a worse gear grind.
DDO had a random loot system in a sense but they had named items that your constanty grinding n grinding n grinding in raids. Course these were named items but it does follow a random loot system as you gan get non named items with stats.
Personally I hate gear grinds and much rather just have a mechanic that allows more for fun and not some gear grind mechanic,
So instead you'd prefer a mechanic that forces you to do the same encounter over n over n over n over again on the same toon? I prefer the currency with limitations as it'll allow you to use alts more often that can spicen up you play time, while you can swap to a different toon in you prefered style but when you have a main you want the best gear possible which forces you to always play the same toon.
BC was pretty spot on as it allowed a few choice pieces for that "just won't friggin drop" kind of gear, however Wrath they went ridiculously overboard.
Loot is for sissies.
I agree. It's like wanting to PvP for a few hours since I finally have time, and then spending half of that time in a queue. /logout
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While I feel you could have presented that better, I agree that from both a game design and incentive standpoint, any offer of a usable item is a more appealing reward than money, as money is viewed as a means whereas an item is viewed as an end.
Less rewarding boss drops are currency, materials and junk loot. Average rewarding items are consumables and items that can be refined to materials. More rewarding boss drops are rare materials (completion items), usable gear.
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Yeah it's stupid, and really immersion breaking.
You are a hero in the world, and you have just been told that you need to destroy Evil Dude, and this guy is really really evil, he wants to destroy the entire world. Now to be able to kill Evil Dude you need to collect magical armor and weapons, but a very good friend and ally of the guy who just told you to go and kill Evil Dude have everything you need, but he won't give it to you, and would rather risk the end of the world then parting with his dear magical armor. But he agrees to give it to you if you can kill all of Evil Dudes henchmen, who are almost as powerful as Evil Dude himself.
If this guy is one of the good guys, it makes more sense if he just gave you everything you asked for, so you can complete the task at hand.
Oh and yeah, im in favor of loot being random. I think it would give you a better incentive to do what you find fun, rather than killing this one boss over and over until you get that special item.