I assumed Bioware went this way because they had so many more ideas for classes than classes available, and because they specifically said WoW is a good game and they're using it for inspiration for their own MMO.
And if you look at WoW as such a source of inspiration, then having classes that can change their role in a party is one of the unique properties of it.
Bioware obviously thought thats a good idea, so they copied it.
A lot of players are selfish, so they will choose DD for sure when they could be a tank or healer.
I don't understand why it's selfish to choose a damage dealing class at all...
I just get a feeling he lacks social skills or a PROPER guild experience.
Lets hope that groups of friends can do well here; Guilds are just full of bully boys and demands; For once I want a fun game experience with people who are in for the haul not just a job to beat the game (guild approach).
I am hoping the game is abouit tactics and teamplay not stupid uber builds, and selfish players.
This is one to be enjoyed and if i can finish this with eight friends over a period of a year then I will be happy. NoMark guild can stay as such not interested in egotist slave drivers.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
The secret world, guild wars, terra, archeage, world of darkness, firefall, undead labs zombie mmo, end of nations, probably even titan are all innovating and making changes on the old boring worn out overused archaic formula. It happened with Rift and it will happen with SWTOR. People will get bored. How long can you stick to these elementary designs?
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
The secret world, guild wars, terra, archeage, world of darkness, firefall, undead labs zombie mmo, end of nations, probably even titan are all innovating and making changes on the old boring worn out overused archaic formula. It happened with Rift and it will happen with SWTOR. People will get bored. How long can you stick to these elementary designs?
Well even tho there will still be a trinity in place, classes will be able to fill 2 or even 3 of the roles and you will also have companions to help out. Also, why can't we have games that have a trinity system and ones that try to go away from it on the market at the same time?
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
The secret world, guild wars, terra, archeage, world of darkness, firefall, undead labs zombie mmo, end of nations, probably even titan are all innovating and making changes on the old boring worn out overused archaic formula. It happened with Rift and it will happen with SWTOR. People will get bored. How long can you stick to these elementary designs?
Like I said, good luck with them. So far MOST of those are not even out yet and we know about as much of them as we do SWTOR, much less actually for a few of them. You are counting some serious chickens here before they are even hatched. Also expecting a company like Blizzard to come up with anything truly innovative, when they have made an art of the "copy and paste" is pretty funny, glad to see you at least have a sense of humor here.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
The secret world, guild wars, terra, archeage, world of darkness, firefall, undead labs zombie mmo, end of nations, probably even titan are all innovating and making changes on the old boring worn out overused archaic formula. It happened with Rift and it will happen with SWTOR. People will get bored. How long can you stick to these elementary designs?
Like I said, good luck with them. So far MOST of those are not even out yet and we know about as much of them as we do SWTOR, much less actually for a few of them. You are counting some serious chickens here before they are even hatched. Also expecting a company like Blizzard to come up with anything truly innovative, when they have made an art of the "copy and paste" is pretty funny, glad to see you at least have a sense of humor here.
Um... the point is: BW themslves said it that they are letting many classes be able to pick healer and tank b/c many people were having to wait around for the class. Now this is with their testers and sorry, I don't remember where I read this.
At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
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At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
Precisely. The thing is WoW brought so many people to this genre it was almost a reset. Those of us around forever can see WoW as a dumbed down, tightly packed, highly polished, solid game with kind of old and worn out concepts. Those that came on strong to MMO's right around WoW or with WoW will just now be getting bored with the elementary systems. I don't see many games continuing this formula because it is boring, it is worn out, and it is these things on the most basic of levels.
Maybe EQ next, and maybe one or two other AAA clones will try it, but it is dying out and just like Souldrainer said above players will jump in because of Star Wars, Bioware, story, etc. but when it starts to fade the monotomy of playing another cloned game will rear its head.
At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
Precisely. The thing is WoW brought so many people to this genre it was almost a reset. Those of us around forever can see WoW as a dumbed down, tightly packed, highly polished, solid game with kind of old and worn out concepts. Those that came on strong to MMO's right around WoW or with WoW will just now be getting bored with the elementary systems. I don't see many games continuing this formula because it is boring, it is worn out, and it is these things on the most basic of levels.
Maybe EQ next, and maybe one or two other AAA clones will try it, but it is dying out and just like Souldrainer said above players will jump in because of Star Wars, Bioware, story, etc. but when it starts to fade the monotomy of playing another cloned game will rear its head.
Of course, you are both ignoring the fact that most of the classes have some Healing Ability, Crowd Control, Tanking, and Damage Dealing in some measure. Maybe not all four in the same class/advanced class, but there is enough variety that it adds a bit a fresh air to the mix. From what I have seen so far, these classes seem to blend abilities very well and I can't wait to see how well that actually is in person.
Oh and Souldrainer, make your game and I will play it, on a free trial of course. If it is as good as you seem to think you could make it, I'll even buy it and subscribe to it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Of course, you are both ignoring the fact that most of the classes have some Healing Ability, Crowd Control, Tanking, and Damage Dealing in some measure. Maybe not all four in the same class/advanced class, but there is enough variety that it adds a bit a fresh air to the mix. From what I have seen so far, these classes seem to blend abilities very well and I can't wait to see how well that actually is in person.
Yeah there are unknowns since I haven't played it with my own hands. There are just a large number of design ideas, statements from developers, and data that we have received that lead me to make my initial comment. I think these guys are lacking entirely in innovation or originality. I have thought this of Bioware ever since the 2nd KOTOR came out. Bioware is milking the same formula with different skins for everything it is worth, and it is a good formula but they are turning into the new EA. Oh yeah...
No one could look me in the eye with knowledge of the genre and gaming and tell me that Bioware isn't milking it's formula, designing it's game to be like WoW and to compete directly with WoW, and that they aren't targeting the lowest common denominator. You can't tell me they are focusing on pushing the genre forward, innovating, or bringing something new to the table. They are trying to make WoW 2.0 with a Star Wars settings and the milked Bioware game formula. They are doing this because it has the potential to yield the most amount of profit and I don't blame them. It will still be boring though, and it will still feel like the same thing you have been playing forever once the honeymoon period is over.
Oh and Souldrainer, make your game and I will play it, on a free trial of course. If it is as good as you seem to think you could make it, I'll even buy it and subscribe to it.
The world is not ready for me as a game designer.
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Of course, you are both ignoring the fact that most of the classes have some Healing Ability, Crowd Control, Tanking, and Damage Dealing in some measure. Maybe not all four in the same class/advanced class, but there is enough variety that it adds a bit a fresh air to the mix. From what I have seen so far, these classes seem to blend abilities very well and I can't wait to see how well that actually is in person.
Yeah there are unknowns since I haven't played it with my own hands. There are just a large number of design ideas, statements from developers, and data that we have received that lead me to make my initial comment. I think these guys are lacking entirely in innovation or originality. I have thought this of Bioware ever since the 2nd KOTOR came out. Bioware is milking the same formula with different skins for everything it is worth, and it is a good formula but they are turning into the new EA. Oh yeah...
No one could look me in the eye with knowledge of the genre and gaming and tell me that Bioware isn't milking it's formula, designing it's game to be like WoW and to compete directly with WoW, and that they aren't targeting the lowest common denominator. You can't tell me they are focusing on pushing the genre forward, innovating, or bringing something new to the table. They are trying to make WoW 2.0 with a Star Wars settings and the milked Bioware game formula. They are doing this because it has the potential to yield the most amount of profit and I don't blame them. It will still be boring though, and it will still feel like the same thing you have been playing forever once the honeymoon period is over.
just wanted to correct something for you. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II, Obsidian Entertainment did.
Yeah at the suggestion of Bioware because they were too busy. It still used the same formula, and they continued to milk the same formula since KOTOR 1. They will continue to do so, and they will release DLC right after launch, and they will continue to churn out these games with different skins.
Whenever a company joins up with EA to milk their formula and IP the games start to lose their soul, and before long they lose their popularity, and then we know how EA deals with developers who don't make them money.
Of course, you are both ignoring the fact that most of the classes have some Healing Ability, Crowd Control, Tanking, and Damage Dealing in some measure. Maybe not all four in the same class/advanced class, but there is enough variety that it adds a bit a fresh air to the mix. From what I have seen so far, these classes seem to blend abilities very well and I can't wait to see how well that actually is in person.
Yeah there are unknowns since I haven't played it with my own hands. There are just a large number of design ideas, statements from developers, and data that we have received that lead me to make my initial comment. I think these guys are lacking entirely in innovation or originality. I have thought this of Bioware ever since the 2nd KOTOR came out. Bioware is milking the same formula with different skins for everything it is worth, and it is a good formula but they are turning into the new EA. Oh yeah...
No one could look me in the eye with knowledge of the genre and gaming and tell me that Bioware isn't milking it's formula, designing it's game to be like WoW and to compete directly with WoW, and that they aren't targeting the lowest common denominator. You can't tell me they are focusing on pushing the genre forward, innovating, or bringing something new to the table. They are trying to make WoW 2.0 with a Star Wars settings and the milked Bioware game formula. They are doing this because it has the potential to yield the most amount of profit and I don't blame them. It will still be boring though, and it will still feel like the same thing you have been playing forever once the honeymoon period is over.
First off, KoTOR II was made by Obsidian, not BioWare. That is a common mistake so don't feel bad. It did weaken your argument though a little. Which was made worse when you admitted being wrong by saying, "Yeah at the suggestion of Bioware because they were too busy."
Second, Bioware is "milking the same formula" as you put it as much as any other company does it. The difference, in my opinion, is that their formula is a lot more fun. I personally like the idea of choices in my quests OTHER than yes or no. BioWare started that a long time ago and have been building on it ever since. I like the idea of Voice Overs as well (I am holding my breath that it will be done well enough to truly add to the game). I like to craft and this system that BioWare seems to be implementing seems to be a much better system than I have seen in a LOT of games. Mostly that it takes time, even if you are having your Companions do most of it, but it doesn't have to end your play time (questing) to do it. Oh, and Companions. Started WAY back in Balder's Gate timeframe and they have been tweaking it ever since to make for a better and better system. Personally, I like it, though I can see why some would not and that is the best part, BioWare even made the Companions optional for questing. They are almost a built in "hard mode". Leave them in the ship and you have to work harder to complete the missions. Want to speed things up a bit? Being along your Companion.
All in all, there are innovations in SWTOR. If nothing else spending the time and money to produce a game the size this one is going to be at launch is innovative, just look at all the other tiny games that have released that people get bored to death on in the first month. You can also look at the level of polish that seems to be lacking lately as a form of innovation, granted a "No Duh" type of innovation, but it has also been lacking lately. If that isn't good enough for you though, I personally think that the true innovation of this game will be in how everything fits together "In-Game".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
First off, KoTOR II was made by Obsidian, not BioWare. That is a common mistake so don't feel bad.
Second, Bioware is "milking the same formula" as you put it as much as any other company it. The difference, in my opinion, is that their formula is a lot more fun. I personally like the idea of choices in my quests OTHER than yes or no. BioWare started that a long time ago and have been building on it ever since. I like the idea of Voice Overs as well (I am holding my breath that it will be done well enough to truly add to the game). I like to craft and this system that BioWare seems to be implementing seems to be a much better system than I have seen in a LOT of games. Mostly that it takes time, even if you are having your Companions do most of it, but it doesn't have to end your play time (questing) to do it. Oh, and Companions. Started WAY back in Balder's Gate timeframe and they have been tweaking it ever since to make for a beter and better system. Personally, I like it, though I can see why some would not and that is the best part, BioWare even made the Companions optional for questing. They are almost a built in "hard mode". Leave them in the ship and you have to work harder to complete the missions. Want to speed things up a bit? Being along your Companion.
All in all, there are innovations in SWTOR. If nothing else spending the time and money to produce a game the size this one is going to be a launch is innovative, just look at all the other tiny games that have released that people get bored to death on in the first month. You can also look at the level of polish that seems to be lacking lately as a form of innovation, granted a "No Duh" type of innovation, but it has also been lacking lately. If that isn't good enough for you though, I personally think that the true innovation of this game will be in how everything fits together "In-Game".
I know it was made by another company, but using Biowares engine and Biowares assistance. The formula didn't change and it has been milked the same way since KOTOR 1 through Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. Each iteration gets more and more EA'd. I was simply referencing the time period when I grew bored of the formula that has since been used a number of times across Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc.
You are right though about it being a good formula. I agree these games provide a pretty fun gaming experience. I think this game will be insanely high production quality, polished, and rock solid. It will be a good game for sure, and anyone who picks it up will get their moneys worth out of the box price.
There are changes coming that don't normally exist in MMORPG's and that come from Biowares formula of games. I hadn't mentioned that I will pick this game up and play it at launch for the story, the star wars, and because I am ridiculously addicted to MMO launches.
Still they are designing the MMO parts of this game around old archaic systems that are flat out boring and worn out. The companions, self heals, etc. are just another excuse for people to be antisocial and solo to end game where the old worn out MMO design patterns will be in full force. There will be a shallow treadmill at the end of the game.
Don't get me wrong though. I am sure it will be a good game and will sell well. When I say 'you' in my posts I am obviously referring to me since it is my opinion so don't take it personal.
I guess you could just say I am dissapointed in another waste of a AAA mmorpg that I know will just be another entry in the 1-3 month sub category with no long lasting appeal due to boredom and archaic designs. Still it is hard for me to care much about it with so many titles that are trying to do push the genre forward and game designers that actually have some creativity and have the power to bring their ideas to life. Could you imagine being a designer on SWTOR's or RIFT's MMO systems? I feel like they have the creative freedom of a tax auditor.
First off, KoTOR II was made by Obsidian, not BioWare. That is a common mistake so don't feel bad. It did weaken your argument though a little. Which was made worse when you admitted being wrong by saying, "Yeah at the suggestion of Bioware because they were too busy."
Second, Bioware is "milking the same formula" as you put it as much as any other company does it. The difference, in my opinion, is that their formula is a lot more fun. I personally like the idea of choices in my quests OTHER than yes or no. BioWare started that a long time ago and have been building on it ever since. I like the idea of Voice Overs as well (I am holding my breath that it will be done well enough to truly add to the game). I like to craft and this system that BioWare seems to be implementing seems to be a much better system than I have seen in a LOT of games. Mostly that it takes time, even if you are having your Companions do most of it, but it doesn't have to end your play time (questing) to do it. Oh, and Companions. Started WAY back in Balder's Gate timeframe and they have been tweaking it ever since to make for a better and better system. Personally, I like it, though I can see why some would not and that is the best part, BioWare even made the Companions optional for questing. They are almost a built in "hard mode". Leave them in the ship and you have to work harder to complete the missions. Want to speed things up a bit? Being along your Companion.
All in all, there are innovations in SWTOR. If nothing else spending the time and money to produce a game the size this one is going to be at launch is innovative, just look at all the other tiny games that have released that people get bored to death on in the first month. You can also look at the level of polish that seems to be lacking lately as a form of innovation, granted a "No Duh" type of innovation, but it has also been lacking lately. If that isn't good enough for you though, I personally think that the true innovation of this game will be in how everything fits together "In-Game".
I know it was made by another company, but using Biowares engine and Biowares assistance. The formula didn't change and it has been milked the same way since KOTOR 1 through Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. Each iteration gets more and more EA'd. I was simply referencing the time period when I grew bored of the formula that has since been used a number of times across Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc.
I can't argue with you here, if that is when you started getting bored then that is when it started.
You are right though about it being a good formula. I agree these games provide a pretty fun gaming experience. I think this game will be insanely high production quality, polished, and rock solid. It will be a good game for sure, and anyone who picks it up will get their moneys worth out of the box price.
Okay, I'm a little confused about why you are upset here. No, a LOT confused.
There are changes coming that don't normally exist in MMORPG's and that come from Biowares formula of games. I hadn't mentioned that I will pick this game up and play it at launch for the story, the star wars, and because I am ridiculously addicted to MMO launches.
Still they are designing the MMO parts of this game around old archaic systems that are flat out boring and worn out. The companions, self heals, etc. are just another excuse for people to be antisocial and solo to end game where the old worn out MMO design patterns will be in full force. There will be a shallow treadmill at the end of the game.
It has already been stated that this game CAN be soloed, but that you will get extra benefits from teaming (better drops) AND that there is content you will miss out on if you refuse to team. I think that is about as close as you will ever come to a game forcing you to team anymore. Forced teaming for a lot of people is a game killer and so companies will avoid that whenever possible, which means almost always. As for the end game, we know almost nothing about that other than that BioWare has stated there will be endgame content at release. To say anything about it at this point is just premature.
Don't get me wrong though. I am sure it will be a good game and will sell well. When I say 'you' in my posts I am obviously referring to me since it is my opinion so don't take it personal.
I haven't taken anything personal yet. To be honest I have enjoyed this little exchange of ours. To many people get all upset over the silliest thing in these forums and you are not so this has been a good discussion.
I guess you could just say I am dissapointed in another waste of a AAA mmorpg that I know will just be another entry in the 1-3 month sub category with no long lasting appeal due to boredom and archaic designs. Still it is hard for me to care much about it with so many titles that are trying to do push the genre forward and game designers that actually have some creativity and have the power to bring their ideas to life. Could you imagine being a designer on SWTOR's or RIFT's MMO systems? I feel like they have the creative freedom of a tax auditor.
Now after reading this I almost wonder if you are not just getting burnt out on MMOs in general. I did a while back and took a year off gaming. Did an amazing thing for me, I learn to just enjoy the experience again.
In RED above to make it easier to reference.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Oh yeah man I am so burnt out on MMO's. I haven't had an MMO that has held my interest for more than the first couple months in way too long. They have all been fun launches though. I love the chaos.
I want an MMO that pushes the genre forward. When I first started playing them and when I was inspired to go to school for game development I saw so much potential in the genre that is just stalling out. I think WoW might of reset it and brought it more to the masses so maybe now it will be pushed forward. Maybe now all these WoW players are coming to the point that I was at when WoW first launched. I am very jaded and burnt out on the genre right now.
If only I wouldn't have had an adorable little daughter and burnt out on the game industry maybe I would be able to make a difference instead of programming slot machine games.
I can understand the MMO Launch excitement. That is what actually made me take a break though. To many launches that ended up being duds. SWTOR will be the first launch I have participated in (other than Rift which I found disappointing) in a long time. I am hoping that the innovations (as I mentioned earlier) that I see in the game really draw me into this game. If nothing else, the size will I am sure.
I do have one question though. Why aren't you making a game for that little girl of yours? Dude, that would be an awesome little gift from Daddy (or Mommy).
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I'm burnt out on programming too. That weird thing where doing your hobby as your job kind of ruins the hobby. We have destroyed this thread haha.
Who knows though SWTOR may catch me off guard since I have such low expectations. I am really just excited about the Secret World and World of Darkness right now, but the best experiences i've had with MMO's have been the ones that caught me off guard.
At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
Well put man, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. This is excatly why TOR does not have my full attention but GW2 does. You can't say "Oh he does not have social skills." This is just wrong, what's right is: he does not want to wait around for 45 minutes and play for 15 minutes b/c he's only got an hour to play. Even this EA or BW discussed it. They were like we know this is the problem. Too bad they are not solving it...
I'm burnt out on programming too. That weird thing where doing your hobby as your job kind of ruins the hobby. We have destroyed this thread haha.
Who knows though SWTOR may catch me off guard since I have such low expectations. I am really just excited about the Secret World and World of Darkness right now, but the best experiences i've had with MMO's have been the ones that caught me off guard.
I have to admit that WoD has me interested too and that game may very well innovate the "classes". Especially if it stays true to the PnP game. Very nice that they decided to go with the older version of the game too (I think). Low expectations though are a good thing unless you refuse to let them go even in the face of proof otherwise. This way if the game is good, you'll be very happy because you are only expecting the "same ol' same ol'".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
Well put man, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. This is excatly why TOR does not have my full attention but GW2 does. You can't say "Oh he does not have social skills." This is just wrong, what's right is: he does not want to wait around for 45 minutes and play for 15 minutes b/c he's only got an hour to play. Even this EA or BW discussed it. They were like we know this is the problem. Too bad they are not solving it...
Well, that's not entirely true, they did solve it, in their own way.
You have Companions to fill in any gap there might be when you're missing a specific role in a group. Also, there's a large emphasis on a soft trinity, where classes are good in fulfilling various roles in their own way and all have healing skills outside combat and revive skills. Also devs stated that it would be possible to engage combat successfully with a group that seems to lack a pure/dedicated healer or tank, it would be more of a challenge but still very much possible. Granted, we have to see how this works in practice.
Of course, it doesn't solve the problem if people have grown completely bored with any form of trinity oriented combat, but then again, you have also people who have grown completely bored with themepark styled gameplay, no game can please everyone.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I assumed Bioware went this way because they had so many more ideas for classes than classes available, and because they specifically said WoW is a good game and they're using it for inspiration for their own MMO.
And if you look at WoW as such a source of inspiration, then having classes that can change their role in a party is one of the unique properties of it.
Bioware obviously thought thats a good idea, so they copied it.
Personally I dont like it much, but whatever.
Lets hope that groups of friends can do well here; Guilds are just full of bully boys and demands; For once I want a fun game experience with people who are in for the haul not just a job to beat the game (guild approach).
I am hoping the game is abouit tactics and teamplay not stupid uber builds, and selfish players.
This is one to be enjoyed and if i can finish this with eight friends over a period of a year then I will be happy. NoMark guild can stay as such not interested in egotist slave drivers.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I have problems with the classes, the armor progression, the holy trinity use, and almost everything to do with these systems in SWTOR. So much lack of any innovation, originality, or anything new. Clone # 21 with a Bioware wrapper.
Good luck finding your "innovation, originality, or anything new" in some other game out there. Plain and simple fact is that most approaches have been tried at one point or another and now the real "new" approach is to find a new way of putting the peices together that people can enjoy.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
The secret world, guild wars, terra, archeage, world of darkness, firefall, undead labs zombie mmo, end of nations, probably even titan are all innovating and making changes on the old boring worn out overused archaic formula. It happened with Rift and it will happen with SWTOR. People will get bored. How long can you stick to these elementary designs?
Well even tho there will still be a trinity in place, classes will be able to fill 2 or even 3 of the roles and you will also have companions to help out. Also, why can't we have games that have a trinity system and ones that try to go away from it on the market at the same time?
Like I said, good luck with them. So far MOST of those are not even out yet and we know about as much of them as we do SWTOR, much less actually for a few of them. You are counting some serious chickens here before they are even hatched. Also expecting a company like Blizzard to come up with anything truly innovative, when they have made an art of the "copy and paste" is pretty funny, glad to see you at least have a sense of humor here.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
If I can make someone laugh today then it has been a good day. =D
Um... the point is: BW themslves said it that they are letting many classes be able to pick healer and tank b/c many people were having to wait around for the class. Now this is with their testers and sorry, I don't remember where I read this.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
At the heart of it, this whole problem would be solved if the world listened to me. For about 4 years now, I have been saying that the "trinity" system of classes is dying. People are realizing that there is more to fun gaming than looking for a tank and/or healer all day.
Some say "but I like to tank and/or heal." ---> how is that relevant to the fact that there is a shortage?
Some say "it's not that bad." ---> 45 minute queue times in WOW. Not bad, horrible!
Some say "let guilds sort that out." ---> Great, so now you want guild recruiters to spend thousands of hours doing this, and dozens of hours playing the game? Sounds fair.
Some say "TOR has the master plan and will fix this." --- > regardless of what you think they are doing with it, it's still trinity, aka putting polish on a turd.
I'm going to grab this game for the story/voice overs and the single player style aspects, but if they expect to hold my interest with holy trinity raiding and two-faction PVP, they're sadly mistaken. I'll just level up alts until I get bored, then call it a month.
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Precisely. The thing is WoW brought so many people to this genre it was almost a reset. Those of us around forever can see WoW as a dumbed down, tightly packed, highly polished, solid game with kind of old and worn out concepts. Those that came on strong to MMO's right around WoW or with WoW will just now be getting bored with the elementary systems. I don't see many games continuing this formula because it is boring, it is worn out, and it is these things on the most basic of levels.
Maybe EQ next, and maybe one or two other AAA clones will try it, but it is dying out and just like Souldrainer said above players will jump in because of Star Wars, Bioware, story, etc. but when it starts to fade the monotomy of playing another cloned game will rear its head.
Of course, you are both ignoring the fact that most of the classes have some Healing Ability, Crowd Control, Tanking, and Damage Dealing in some measure. Maybe not all four in the same class/advanced class, but there is enough variety that it adds a bit a fresh air to the mix. From what I have seen so far, these classes seem to blend abilities very well and I can't wait to see how well that actually is in person.
Oh and Souldrainer, make your game and I will play it, on a free trial of course. If it is as good as you seem to think you could make it, I'll even buy it and subscribe to it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Yeah there are unknowns since I haven't played it with my own hands. There are just a large number of design ideas, statements from developers, and data that we have received that lead me to make my initial comment. I think these guys are lacking entirely in innovation or originality. I have thought this of Bioware ever since the 2nd KOTOR came out. Bioware is milking the same formula with different skins for everything it is worth, and it is a good formula but they are turning into the new EA. Oh yeah...
No one could look me in the eye with knowledge of the genre and gaming and tell me that Bioware isn't milking it's formula, designing it's game to be like WoW and to compete directly with WoW, and that they aren't targeting the lowest common denominator. You can't tell me they are focusing on pushing the genre forward, innovating, or bringing something new to the table. They are trying to make WoW 2.0 with a Star Wars settings and the milked Bioware game formula. They are doing this because it has the potential to yield the most amount of profit and I don't blame them. It will still be boring though, and it will still feel like the same thing you have been playing forever once the honeymoon period is over.
The world is not ready for me as a game designer.
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just wanted to correct something for you. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II, Obsidian Entertainment did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_II_The_Sith_Lords
Yeah at the suggestion of Bioware because they were too busy. It still used the same formula, and they continued to milk the same formula since KOTOR 1. They will continue to do so, and they will release DLC right after launch, and they will continue to churn out these games with different skins.
Whenever a company joins up with EA to milk their formula and IP the games start to lose their soul, and before long they lose their popularity, and then we know how EA deals with developers who don't make them money.
First off, KoTOR II was made by Obsidian, not BioWare. That is a common mistake so don't feel bad. It did weaken your argument though a little. Which was made worse when you admitted being wrong by saying, "Yeah at the suggestion of Bioware because they were too busy."
Second, Bioware is "milking the same formula" as you put it as much as any other company does it. The difference, in my opinion, is that their formula is a lot more fun. I personally like the idea of choices in my quests OTHER than yes or no. BioWare started that a long time ago and have been building on it ever since. I like the idea of Voice Overs as well (I am holding my breath that it will be done well enough to truly add to the game). I like to craft and this system that BioWare seems to be implementing seems to be a much better system than I have seen in a LOT of games. Mostly that it takes time, even if you are having your Companions do most of it, but it doesn't have to end your play time (questing) to do it. Oh, and Companions. Started WAY back in Balder's Gate timeframe and they have been tweaking it ever since to make for a better and better system. Personally, I like it, though I can see why some would not and that is the best part, BioWare even made the Companions optional for questing. They are almost a built in "hard mode". Leave them in the ship and you have to work harder to complete the missions. Want to speed things up a bit? Being along your Companion.
All in all, there are innovations in SWTOR. If nothing else spending the time and money to produce a game the size this one is going to be at launch is innovative, just look at all the other tiny games that have released that people get bored to death on in the first month. You can also look at the level of polish that seems to be lacking lately as a form of innovation, granted a "No Duh" type of innovation, but it has also been lacking lately. If that isn't good enough for you though, I personally think that the true innovation of this game will be in how everything fits together "In-Game".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I know it was made by another company, but using Biowares engine and Biowares assistance. The formula didn't change and it has been milked the same way since KOTOR 1 through Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. Each iteration gets more and more EA'd. I was simply referencing the time period when I grew bored of the formula that has since been used a number of times across Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc.
You are right though about it being a good formula. I agree these games provide a pretty fun gaming experience. I think this game will be insanely high production quality, polished, and rock solid. It will be a good game for sure, and anyone who picks it up will get their moneys worth out of the box price.
There are changes coming that don't normally exist in MMORPG's and that come from Biowares formula of games. I hadn't mentioned that I will pick this game up and play it at launch for the story, the star wars, and because I am ridiculously addicted to MMO launches.
Still they are designing the MMO parts of this game around old archaic systems that are flat out boring and worn out. The companions, self heals, etc. are just another excuse for people to be antisocial and solo to end game where the old worn out MMO design patterns will be in full force. There will be a shallow treadmill at the end of the game.
Don't get me wrong though. I am sure it will be a good game and will sell well. When I say 'you' in my posts I am obviously referring to me since it is my opinion so don't take it personal.
I guess you could just say I am dissapointed in another waste of a AAA mmorpg that I know will just be another entry in the 1-3 month sub category with no long lasting appeal due to boredom and archaic designs. Still it is hard for me to care much about it with so many titles that are trying to do push the genre forward and game designers that actually have some creativity and have the power to bring their ideas to life. Could you imagine being a designer on SWTOR's or RIFT's MMO systems? I feel like they have the creative freedom of a tax auditor.
In RED above to make it easier to reference.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Oh yeah man I am so burnt out on MMO's. I haven't had an MMO that has held my interest for more than the first couple months in way too long. They have all been fun launches though. I love the chaos.
I want an MMO that pushes the genre forward. When I first started playing them and when I was inspired to go to school for game development I saw so much potential in the genre that is just stalling out. I think WoW might of reset it and brought it more to the masses so maybe now it will be pushed forward. Maybe now all these WoW players are coming to the point that I was at when WoW first launched. I am very jaded and burnt out on the genre right now.
If only I wouldn't have had an adorable little daughter and burnt out on the game industry maybe I would be able to make a difference instead of programming slot machine games.
I can understand the MMO Launch excitement. That is what actually made me take a break though. To many launches that ended up being duds. SWTOR will be the first launch I have participated in (other than Rift which I found disappointing) in a long time. I am hoping that the innovations (as I mentioned earlier) that I see in the game really draw me into this game. If nothing else, the size will I am sure.
I do have one question though. Why aren't you making a game for that little girl of yours? Dude, that would be an awesome little gift from Daddy (or Mommy).
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I'm burnt out on programming too. That weird thing where doing your hobby as your job kind of ruins the hobby. We have destroyed this thread haha.
Who knows though SWTOR may catch me off guard since I have such low expectations. I am really just excited about the Secret World and World of Darkness right now, but the best experiences i've had with MMO's have been the ones that caught me off guard.
Well put man, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. This is excatly why TOR does not have my full attention but GW2 does. You can't say "Oh he does not have social skills." This is just wrong, what's right is: he does not want to wait around for 45 minutes and play for 15 minutes b/c he's only got an hour to play. Even this EA or BW discussed it. They were like we know this is the problem. Too bad they are not solving it...
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
I have to admit that WoD has me interested too and that game may very well innovate the "classes". Especially if it stays true to the PnP game. Very nice that they decided to go with the older version of the game too (I think). Low expectations though are a good thing unless you refuse to let them go even in the face of proof otherwise. This way if the game is good, you'll be very happy because you are only expecting the "same ol' same ol'".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Well, that's not entirely true, they did solve it, in their own way.
You have Companions to fill in any gap there might be when you're missing a specific role in a group. Also, there's a large emphasis on a soft trinity, where classes are good in fulfilling various roles in their own way and all have healing skills outside combat and revive skills. Also devs stated that it would be possible to engage combat successfully with a group that seems to lack a pure/dedicated healer or tank, it would be more of a challenge but still very much possible. Granted, we have to see how this works in practice.
Of course, it doesn't solve the problem if people have grown completely bored with any form of trinity oriented combat, but then again, you have also people who have grown completely bored with themepark styled gameplay, no game can please everyone.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."