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MMO's have gone to crap since WoW came out.
Siveria
Member UncommonPosts: 1,421
Anyone else think that mmorpg's have pretty much gone to crap since wow came out? Since its came out almost all orignal devolopment has pretty much stopped and every dev tries to make a copy of wow with its linear themepark like gameplay insted of trying their own thing. Rift is a prime example, its bascally WoW exactly in a diffrent skin, its also starting to or rather has been effecting f2p titles badly too. look at RoM, Allods etc.
I used to be a diehard mmorpg fan, but now a days no mmo interests me because they all feel way to much like wow, or rather like "I've done this in the last X amount of mmo's its just not fun anymore"
What I'd like to know is why don't the devs get the hint? People are sick of wow-themepark clones and are dying for something that at least tries to be orignal. Mind you this is pretty hard to do, but TBH i'd love to see a game like Auto Assault made by a AAA dev team, would be something great if its done right.
Anyone else feel this way? When I look at GW2 SW:ToR I just can't seem to get excited since they both just sound like the same crap over again in a diffrent wrapper.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Comments
I think everyone can agree that post-WoW, MMO's has been crap. The only good games for me these days are City of Heroes which came out a month before WoW and EVE which came out in 2003(?). Aion and LoTRo are also decent.
The past 3 years has been a total waste of time for MMO's. All we have seen is lets do a re-skin of older games and hope that folks don't notice it.
Right now all the new mmo's have big shoes to fill and they seam to fail at it.
Yes I think the 1000 other posts like this show that people agree. Probably the more silly notion I see is that it's WoW's fault that no other really good MMO's have been released. Hopefully something new and wonderful will come. I have a few in mind but I'm not the kind of person that goes on about what game coming is going to rule all. How mant times has that been said in the last few years......you never really know til it actually hits. Just my opinion of course.
what do you mean since wow came out, wow was like the first giant turd that hit the pile, it just happened to be a golden turd that made alot of money so greedy people that run the gaming companies tell a developer to go make another wow so we can get more skittles.
btw city of heroes came out way more than one month before wow. coh was out in april or may and wow came out november of 2004.
maybe swtor and guild wars 2 will be different, im sure they will have raiding and instance gear gating and that kind of stuff, but hey even coh has went to raiding to get the end game stuff done, rather than raiding for fun, but at least swtor might be fun to get to the top instead of just a grind to get to the top so i can grind some more.
I think its true that MMO's have gone to crap since WoW came out, but the only thing WoW did was raise the bar on quality and expectations. Think about it, games were in development WELL before WoW came out. So if it takes 5 years to make a quality MMO it would not be until 2009 that you would REALLY be seeing WoW-clones. WoW raised the bar and made everything else look like trash.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
The thing is that most MMOs have always been crap. There were a few good games pre Wow and have been a few after (like Guildwars, CORPG or not).
Good MMOs are few and long between. Another problem is that the devs copy eachother so much rthat some games that are otherwise fine just feels like you played them for years and are tired of them after a week (*cough* Rift *cough*).
Wow did set a new standard in programming. Too bad that so far have just Guildwars followed it in that way even if others are on the way now. I dunno if you remember but games like M59, EQ & UO were horrible buggy at times.
We also have to add that since most MMOs are so similar you don't get the same great "new kind of game" feeling we got from our first themepark and first sandbox. That also make newer games to feel worse.
Rift would have been an awesome game if we hadn't played a zillion identical games before.
Wow was in one way really bad for the genre: It did persuade almost all companies that this was how a successful MMO must be. But the blame are the devs that decide that they should do a almost identical game with same mechanics.
Take the holy Triad, it was in Meridian 59 and ever since have almost all MMOs used it no matter the fact that there are many other ways to handle group combat. That tells us how stale the genre is in most cases.
There were more varying games before Wow, since both EQ and UO were relatively successful were there no bluprint on how to make a super MMO, but already then were there loads of crappy copies of older games.
It seems that it is indie developers that are able to push boundaries in the MMO world for the next decade. Major developers will shy away from the risks, which is actually makes a lot of sense considering how expensive bets these games are and how long it takes to make them.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
That's usually how the markets work. The big players have too much red tape, worrying about stock price, investors and board members to really make risky moves. This doesn't just apply to the game market, you hardly see innovation come from larger well established companies. The only exception I can think of is google, and they base their entire company around innovation such to the point that one day of each week people can work on their own projects.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I am not sure. The problem with the indie game is that they are so lousy coded and usually released in a really pethetic shape.
But some devs that started out as indie studios have been growing up and are making games with better funding and more experienced programmers now. CCP and Arenanet are 2 good examples of studios that started out really small but will release AAA games soon, while still keeping their own style instead of just copying the rest. There are also a few experienced devs that start up a new studios based on their merit and some good sponsoring like Jeff Strains "Zombie labs". They have a lot of potential to change the genre as well.
The indie studios are breeding ground for new devs, and a few of those studios will grow into larger companies. But I don't see them to truly influence the genre as long as they still are indie companies.
It is unlikely that change will come from the giants, but a indie MMO needs to be perfect to become large and indie devs don't have the funding for that.
You might want to get more knowledge about economics. Hardly see innovation? Big companies fight over clients with innovations and other things given that their branch depends on tech and developement.
QFT
I don't understand your point. "Big companies fight over clients with innovations"? If anything big companies just acquire companies with "innovation". Lets see what the big players are (I will use mostly tech where most of the innovation comes from in this generation). Microsoft... still making the same "Windowed" OS, Document reader/writers, and servers. Apple is the Blizzard of technology companies, take something everyone already has, then polish it until its a perfect compact system. Cisco? please, switches and routers and getting beat in every other field they attempt to be innovative in.
They were innovative to START their companies. Then they hit upon a successful business model and ran with it. There is nothing wrong with that... I'm just saying the smaller players often times have more freedom to take the risks and be more innovative.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
In my opinion MMORPG's have simply focused too much on the whole combat aspect of the game. With kill X to get Y the only really thing that matters. There is only so many ways a game can deliver that and when so many different MMO's have tried to twist and turn how it is done it just get's boring.
All MMORPG's seem to have combat as their main focus with crafting and other areas just mediocre add-ons that really have no real impact on the game. I think an MMORPG needs to branch out a bit and spend as much time and effort on other areas and not just combat and quests. That's all MMO's seem to offer nowadays and it is just boring.
I think the next MMORPG that comes up with great new ways for players to immerse themselves and bring real depth to the game will be the one that reinvigorates the genre. Something which has in depth crafting, multiple ways of player progression and varies ways of impacting the world other than killing some elite mob in a dungeon.
Just my thoughts...
I agree -- even before WOW -- most mmos were bug filled and poor received
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_MMORPGs
EQ2 fan sites
Innovation is just one factor among many.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
WoW isnt a bad game but it sure is designed for the masses. You ought to blame the stupid money grubbing developers trying to cash in on WoW's success instead of trying something new. Imagine If every single player game was exactly like Call of Duty. The thing is developers of single player games know other forms of gameplay can and will make money but the devs and stuidos think MMO's are a nioche genre and afraid to think outside the box.
Sandbox MMO's (ones designed by western companys and not Korean grindfest like ArchAge) are a vastly better gameplay that I hope an MMO developer here in America finally figures out. I recently quit Rift after a 2 month stay because the gameplay was exactly like WoW which I played for 5+ years. WAR and AIon were the same game, every MMO released in the last 6 years are either FTP crap, poorly developed or a WoW clone. The thing is even with some new bells and whistles layered on a WoW style gameplay does not make the game original. SWTOR and GW2 will be the same exact game as WoW and will prolly hold my intrest for no longer then 2-3 months im sure.
Someone please develop Asherons Call into a modern MMO because right now the only title that partially hol,ds my intrest is The Secret World.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Also, WoW is a very different game than it was back in 2004.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I wish this what they did what they reall do is re'skins of older games with less features and content and hope that folks don't notice.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I can't say that I disagree. It's not so much about WoW setting the bar or creating the road to successful MMOs. WoW has very out dated graphics and has been on the market for years now but it's still going strong. It's more along the lines of MMO developers continue to pump out big name MMO titles at a alarmingly disappointing success rate. MMO games are being released unfinished, buggy, with missing content or with just plain bad development decisions. Say what you want about WoW but Blizz has continously supported their product with all sorts of expansions, content and in game stuff. That's the difference.
Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
Get off my lawn!
I think wow showed the industry that polish goes a long way but now after so many years, polish, while still absolutely necessary is not all that is needed. A polished turd is still a turd. I think what we are finding out is that you need some dynamicism and sandboxiness, hopefully both. People keep gravitating to PvP centric games because they have, for the most part, been the best example of dynamicism. People are unpredictible. Unfortunately people are unpredictible so they are hard to keep balanced and fun and people find ways to break them very fast.
Sandbox elements also seem to help keep a game going. EvE never seems to die. EQ2 also seems to chug along even if somewhat small and I suspect it is because it has a pretty big world and one of the best housing systems. Take out the housing and guild halls and EQ2 would fold in a week. I think even WoW's longevity has to be at least in part credited to how big the old world was/is and how much replay ablility you could get out of it. No, WoW is not a sandbox but being given lots of choices on where to go at any given level gives some of the illusion of sandbox. Unrestricted choice is a hallmark of sandbox.
Which is why I think theme park games have been failing over and over but everybody keeps pointing back to WoW as the granddaddy of theme parks as the example of how themeparks are supposed to be successful. No, I don't think they really are, not in the long term, we were just fooled by WoW because the original world was bigger than usual, having been modeled on EQ, and so had high replayablity. Theme parks are only good for as long as they last. once you have done it all you get bored and want ot move on. Most of the theme parks since WoW have suffered because they either weren't polished and sank, or they got pushed out too soon and didn't have enough content/end game or they were fine games but had no replayablility ans so people got bored in a month. Aion and Rift fall into this catagory though Rift has blunted the edge a bit with their events system and the speed they have been putting out updates. But have you noticed that most themeparks now usually only have two starting areas each shared between several races and only really one path to level though? WoW on the other hand is one of the few themepark games to have had pretty close to a unique starting area for each race, and now they actually do. Further you had anywhere from two to four zones that you could go to level up in before hitting 60. You always had a choice. I don't think the theme park was so much the success factor as the amount of choice made the theme park tolerable.
I think what we are going to see going into the future is that SWTOR is show us that simply putting even more polish on the same thing doesn't really work. People will enjoy it for as long as it lasts but when they complete the story it will loose most of its appeal. Hopefully lots of planets means lots of leveling and starting choices and replayablity. But if it is just a shiner version of the 1 or 2 path leveling game that we have seen in the last few years then I think we will see trouble.
I think we have seen in Rift what a little bit of dynamic content can do. I don't think it was quite enough for a lot of people but it certainly helped and people were and many still are excited about it. I think the events coupled with what looks like a very aggressive update schedule will keep Rift in play for a good long while. It wont topple the giant but it did perhaps expose some weaknesses.
I think in Guild Wars 2 we are going to see even more of the shift to dynamic content and of course emphasis on PvP will also make it strong. It looks like it will have a pretty big world so hopefully again a shift away from tiny isolating maps with high walls and only enough content to just get you though the levels once.
I think Archeage could be a game that surprises a lot of people. It seems to be generating a lot of noise. If they can pull off what people are hoping they can pull off then we might just see an tectonic plate shift in what developers try to do with MMOs. The question will be, is the term sandpark just more hype and a clever marketing slogan? or will they really deliver. Because it is not like people don't enjoy themeparks, they simply don't have enough to keep people going for ever. but pulling them in and getting them settled using themepark elements and then giving them game longevity with sandbox elements I think will be the way of the future regardless if it is AA that does it large scale or someone else.
All die, so die well.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Topics at MMORPG.com's General Discussion have gone to crap since WoW came out.
How about we have the 1 milionth thread about how WoW has ruined the genre for this or that reason? Because Everquest, Ultima Online, and Meridian 59 had nothing to do with it. DAOC was the golden age of MMORPGs.
I wonder sometimes if you guys really play MMORPGs or your just epic trolls.
Granted, the WoW model is old and im ready for something new. But people have beaten the WoW discussion to death on these forums. It was beaten to death in 2008.
Its 2011.