Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
Not even close on that one. sorry
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Well yeah, we've known this for a long time. Now, almost all big budget MMOs aim to clone WoW rather than innovating even the slightest bit, and fail because they don't understand the MMO sphere. The market is saturated with clones focusing on singleplayer, and going BACKWARDS. It's sad that MMOs from the 90s had more features than most million dollar games have now after 6 years of development...
You're preaching to teh choir. Anyone who tries to argue that the genre has improved clearly wasn't around before WoW. The genre has improved for ONE type of gamer, the non MMO gamer, the gamers that WoW appealed to. And they already have WoW. Now they have a choice between, WoW with low graphics, realistic graphics, WoW with blasters, WoW with more instancing, WoW with super heroes, ect ect. Nowhere are there games for the core MMORPG demographic being made by large companies, only indie companies that work to push the genre forward, but lack the funds or manpower to ever put out a game that can truly compete. And at the same time, those indie companies are the only MMOs growing and getting better over time. WoW clones get big box sales then settle into a steady rapid decline. Games like Eve or Darkfall start off small and have been exponentially growing.
It's a sad time for the genre.
I'll argue that the MMO genre as a whole as improved light years ever since WoW.
This is a genre where '500k sub' was considered a huge income stream. Nothing like $$$ to spur companies to invest into something. EVE, DF, MO Ryzom are all around and successful in their own right.
It is an awesome time for the genre, it has millions of people playing and more MMOs with different things coming out each year.
I can't fault something for its popularity. Sometimes my taste isn't what the majority of people want and thus I have to accept that my taste in something won't have much variety. Nothing wrong with that.
Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
I believe Aion has a 3M sub. LoTRO/DDO also has a significant amount of subs although their F2P model skews the numbers.
Pretty sure LoTRO broke the 500k mark while they were P2P though.
EVE is around 300k-400k last I checked.
Regardless, they are all financially successful and will continue to be so for a while as all have increasing sub numbers.
I see great increases in EVE sub numbers once Incarna/Captain's quarters releases though. While the tech demo shown so far is not very well executed the potential for 'walk on station' is just mind-blowingly good.
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
Not even close on that one. sorry
What is it then?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Guess I am not the only one who relises this about GW2 and SW:ToR. You wanna fix mmo's? Get rid of all gear drops from npc's make them drop materials insted, where player crafters have to make items out of it. Fallen Earth sort of does this since gear drops from mobs in most cases are non-existant. You can still have raids they will be for the best crafting parts in the game. or make it so the best gear drops you can get are uncommon, anything rare or better MUST be crafted. I, Too am tired of mmorpg's leaving crafting as a side thing, in most mmorpg's crafting is generally a waste of time since you can usually find far better things off the stuff you kill. Again the exception I know of is fallen earth you can craft almost every item in FE that exists in the game and crafted weapons and armor from a high skill crafted tend to be the best things out there, FF11 too to a lesser extent, some of the better items have to be made.
WoW's 1st exp had a crafting system where the crafted equipment was better than the 2nd to last dungeon drops. This forced almost everyone that wanted to raid to level-up the crafting profession. I can't say I was a fan of that as it must have been a huge pain to balance to the game-devs when your playerbase suddenly has access to gear you did not intend them to have at that stage of raiding.
If you have drops from raids that must be used for said crafting gear, then you just increased the gear-grind for people.
Not seeing any benefit except that people will have to grind more. Guess it is good if you want to stretch one's content? ?_?
Who cares about raiding. Why the hell does 90% of the customers pay to have their gameplay chiseled away into a funnel that empties into the void that is raiding.
See how the majority's gameplay is diminished because the devs decide to artificially infalte raiding? Everone else's gameplay and sub fee's are taken to make raiding gear the best and worth it to 10% of people while everyone else gets to quit.
Now pvpers get owned by raid gear so they have to grind pvp to get pvp gear. So instead of pvp, they have a gear grind too.
These wolrds are being destroyed by raiding, for the sake of raiding.
Not sure why you are espousing the the 'raid hate'. Having a boss in a video-game is nothing new, (Mario/Bowser anyone?) and sometimes it makes sense for an MMO to have one.
Not seeing 'worlds are being destroyed' bit either, people will play a section of the game that tthey want. Whether that is enjoyable/fun or not is irrevelant as you can't pysically force players to play a certain part of your game.
A game-dev can encourage by putting something nice (IE Epic gear) so the playerbase might do something but at the end of the day, the playerbase will decide what section of the game they will play.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Guess I am not the only one who relises this about GW2 and SW:ToR. You wanna fix mmo's? Get rid of all gear drops from npc's make them drop materials insted, where player crafters have to make items out of it. Fallen Earth sort of does this since gear drops from mobs in most cases are non-existant. You can still have raids they will be for the best crafting parts in the game. or make it so the best gear drops you can get are uncommon, anything rare or better MUST be crafted. I, Too am tired of mmorpg's leaving crafting as a side thing, in most mmorpg's crafting is generally a waste of time since you can usually find far better things off the stuff you kill. Again the exception I know of is fallen earth you can craft almost every item in FE that exists in the game and crafted weapons and armor from a high skill crafted tend to be the best things out there, FF11 too to a lesser extent, some of the better items have to be made.
WoW's 1st exp had a crafting system where the crafted equipment was better than the 2nd to last dungeon drops. This forced almost everyone that wanted to raid to level-up the crafting profession. I can't say I was a fan of that as it must have been a huge pain to balance to the game-devs when your playerbase suddenly has access to gear you did not intend them to have at that stage of raiding.
If you have drops from raids that must be used for said crafting gear, then you just increased the gear-grind for people.
Not seeing any benefit except that people will have to grind more. Guess it is good if you want to stretch one's content? ?_?
Who cares about raiding. Why the hell does 90% of the customers pay to have their gameplay chiseled away into a funnel that empties into the void that is raiding.
See how the majority's gameplay is diminished because the devs decide to artificially infalte raiding? Everone else's gameplay and sub fee's are taken to make raiding gear the best and worth it to 10% of people while everyone else gets to quit.
Now pvpers get owned by raid gear so they have to grind pvp to get pvp gear. So instead of pvp, they have a gear grind too.
These wolrds are being destroyed by raiding, for the sake of raiding.
Not sure why you are espousing the the 'raid hate'. Having a boss in a video-game is nothing new, (Mario/Bowser anyone?) and sometimes it makes sense for an MMO to have one.
Not seeing 'worlds are being destroyed' bit either, people will play a section of the game that tthey want. Whether that is enjoyable/fun or not is irrevelant as you can't pysically force players to play a certain part of your game.
A game-dev can encourage by putting something nice (IE Epic gear) so the playerbase might do something but at the end of the day, the playerbase will decide what section of the game they will play.
Most decide not to raid. So why cant they have top teir crafted gear again?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
Not even close on that one. sorry
What is it then?
Dofus, Rift, Aion and Runescape are some of the big names after WoW. There's WoW numbers and then there's the rest - and Eve is comfortably in "the rest" bin.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
Not even close on that one. sorry
What is it then?
Dofus, Rift, Aion and Runescape are some of the big names after WoW. There's WoW numbers and then there's the rest - and Eve is comfortably in "the rest" bin.
In terms of raw subscribers yes. But don't sell Eve short . You have to take into account all of eve's players play on ONE server. Lets see warcrap do that. They are continually working on upgrading the single server "world" to work more efficiently. WoW is working on developing features to charge you more for nothing.
But I digress. WoW IS the greatest game of all time. Its a gamers paradise and whatever else anyone want's to say so long as the vomit raid till you die or you are a POS Scrub instant gratification crowd STAYS in their WoW. Don't come polluting the new games coming out with the wow crowd in new game xxx chat talking about how wow is soooo much better cause it has "puke feature 2264287462378462646" Friggin stay in WoW... PLEASE I beg you.
PS and lets face it, the WoW crowd hates the Eve one (in general) Probably due to the fact you come into eve and say , Warcraft this or that xxxxx and the results are =
A - you'll get killed for it.
B - you'll get killed for it.
And to add to that, you will get killed for it lol.
I wonder how Mortal Online, Darkfall and Dawntide would have been if they had a 200 million dollar budget.
And I wonder why the big companies who have those 200 million dollar waste it on a copy of another game and hype it up to be a golden turd when in reality is just a turd in turdville.
Personally I think even Wow was crap too they have made people always want easy access and no hard graft in any MMO's so I don't bother since all this shit has come out.
Anyone else think that mmorpg's have pretty much gone to crap since wow came out? Since its came out almost all orignal devolopment has pretty much stopped and every dev tries to make a copy of wow with its linear themepark like gameplay insted of trying their own thing. Rift is a prime example, its bascally WoW exactly in a diffrent skin, its also starting to or rather has been effecting f2p titles badly too. look at RoM, Allods etc.
I used to be a diehard mmorpg fan, but now a days no mmo interests me because they all feel way to much like wow, or rather like "I've done this in the last X amount of mmo's its just not fun anymore"
What I'd like to know is why don't the devs get the hint? People are sick of wow-themepark clones and are dying for something that at least tries to be orignal. Mind you this is pretty hard to do, but TBH i'd love to see a game like Auto Assault made by a AAA dev team, would be something great if its done right.
Anyone else feel this way? When I look at GW2 SW:ToR I just can't seem to get excited since they both just sound like the same crap over again in a diffrent wrapper.
I can't get myself also anymore into mmo's im prolly burned out.
First i hate lvls and xp then also item based and kill X- boars,rats or wolfs whatever.
Freedom and world full of danger and adventure exploring find secrets and dynamic roaming mobs/npc with there own lifes.
I hoped Darkfall would have that but it dissapointed me alot. World looks great and i love the open world without loadscreens or instance. But the quests are terible kill 400x mobs aahhh...and pve sucks plus you dont see any mobs untill you come close they spawn at small area no roaming mobs they are always at same spot:( Weather system and sound also dissapointed me alot plus the whole lvling to lvl100-120skill that takes along time i hate NUMBERS:(
We realy need a mmo with total freedom of elder scrolls but without numbers and some good dynamic and realistic roaming mobs/npcs and weather system with good sound. And craft thats exciting and fun. Building house where you want or small camp or village town where ever you want.
Im playing solo games now untill maybe oneday some company make my game:)
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
Why is it people need this explained to them? It's really not hard to see is it? EVE grows as it does due to it's competition, which is basically none. It's the only sandbox out that has high production values, as well as great word of mouth advertising. (before it's said) No Darkfall is not competition for EVE, it's a totally different game with a different niche in mind.
Now look at theme-park AAA competition, it's a totally different ball game. Most of these games are in direct competition with each other and WOW. There are only so many MMO gamers to draw from, meaning the barrel has to dry up at some point. Of course some of these games are having problems.
It's a testament to the fact offering something for the other side of the equation (sandboxers), still isn't going to bring in anyway near WOW type figures, even if it has no direct competition. Which is sad, I to prefer sandbox games, there just are not nearly as many of us out there as there are people who enjoy the Theme-park approach.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Eve online is the #2 sub game in the west as far as I know. Must have taken alot of improvement from the Industry since WOW, to make a game that came out before WOW and was made for 25k people, to reach 2nd in command. Just saying.
Not even close on that one. sorry
What is it then?
Dofus, Rift, Aion and Runescape are some of the big names after WoW. There's WoW numbers and then there's the rest - and Eve is comfortably in "the rest" bin.
Well Dofus and runescape are children mmo's with children's prices. Aion is an eastern game, and Rift is only going one direction. They may have more subs technically, but not exactly a comparison. Runescape is also one of them pre wow games still beating the new clones. Is it a sandbox too? Dofus a flash game released in 2005.
So you may be right, i guess. I wasnt thinking of childrens games with lower subs or eastern mmos. Western companies with 15 dolla subs is what I meant, sorry. that leaves us with rift.
Or is there others?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The OP said nothing about region of production or target audience. Aion might have been made in Korea but it's a legitimate western MMO just like WoW, EVE, LotRO, etc. Yes, EVE has been a success outside of the "WoW" inspired genre and good for it. I would be playing myself if it wasn't a sci-fi game.
Yes, WoW did set a standard that was a dumbed down colorful version of it predecessors that has left us with more of the same. WoW also brought in millions of new MMO gamers. WoW's level of success has allowed a higher level of production in each MMOs after it and continues to do so. We are still left with a model that is sub-par by "true MMO" standards but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are already games coming out, though some in the distant future, that look to get off the tracks.
For now we're stuck wearing Mickey Mouse hats wondering when Zim is going to come and kick his arse.
All thats needed is for someone to make a game like Ultima Online.
Skill goes up by useing it not leveling. Pvp that if you lose you actually lose something, not just respawn and run back. No epic ledgendary equipment that takes 25 people and 4 hours to get. Then you will see a game that actually requires skill to be good at it.
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
Why is it people need this explained to them? It's really not hard to see is it? EVE grows as it does due to it's competition, which is basically none. It's the only sandbox out that has high production values, as well as great word of mouth advertising. (before it's said) No Darkfall is not competition for EVE, it's a totally different game with a different niche in mind.
Now look at theme-park AAA competition, it's a totally different ball game. Most of these games are in direct competition with each other and WOW. There are only so many MMO gamers to draw from, meaning the barrel has to dry up at some point. Of course some of these games are having problems.
It's a testament to the fact offering something for the other side of the equation (sandboxers), still isn't going to bring in anyway near WOW type figures, even if it has no direct competition. Which is sad, I to prefer sandbox games, there just are not nearly as many of us out there as there are people who enjoy the Theme-park approach.
Nothing is going to bring in WOW numbers. La point.
The rest of your post is pure unoriginal speculation. No one knows. No one would think that sandbox gamers would be found in themepark audiences in large numbers either. Why do you? It's a risk, that's all. It doesnt have a proven model. No one knows how big or small any audience is.
Eve will not bring in wow numbers. That has nothing to do with being a sandbox. That has to do with eve. People dont quit eve becasue it's a sandbox. Even if it had content from start to end as a pure themepark, it wouldnt be more popular. It's because of eve, not sandbox games. Another sandbox game wont compete with eve because its a sandbox. Do you know why people play eve at all?
Thats why its funny that eve can beat most of the clones. It's super niche among mmo sandbox lovers even. Its old. Its point and click space combat for christ's sake. The vast majority of gamers have never even heard of it. The vast majority of the old sandbox players dont play it. Yet.
It grows too, sometimes. Maybe themeparkers are being converted?
Losts of people like sandbox style in other genres. No wait.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The OP said nothing about region of production or target audience. Aion might have been made in Korea but it's a legitimate western MMO just like WoW, EVE, LotRO, etc. Yes, EVE has been a success outside of the "WoW" inspired genre and good for it. I would be playing myself if it wasn't a sci-fi game.
Yes, WoW did set a standard that was a dumbed down colorful version of it predecessors that has left us with more of the same. WoW also brought in millions of new MMO gamers. WoW's level of success has allowed a higher level of production in each MMOs after it and continues to do so. We are still left with a model that is sub-par by "true MMO" standards but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are already games coming out, though some in the distant future, that look to get off the tracks.
For now we're stuck wearing Mickey Mouse hats wondering when Zim is going to come and kick his arse.
The OP didnt ask.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
Nothing is going to bring in WOW numbers. La point.
The rest of your post is pure unoriginal speculation. No one knows. No one would think that sandbox gamers would be found in themepark audiences in large numbers either. Why do you? It's a risk, that's all. It doesnt have a proven model. No one knows how big or small any audience is.
Eve will not bring in wow numbers. That has nothing to do with being a sandbox. That has to do with eve. People dont quit eve becasue it's a sandbox. Even if it had content from start to end as a pure themepark, it wouldnt be more popular. It's because of eve, not sandbox games. Another sandbox game wont compete with eve because its a sandbox. Do you know why people play eve at all?
Thats why its funny that eve can beat most of the clones. It's super niche among mmo sandbox lovers even. Its old. Its point and click space combat for christ's sake. The vast majority of gamers have never even heard of it. The vast majority of the old sandbox players dont play it. Yet.
It grows too, sometimes. Maybe themeparkers are being converted?
Losts of people like sandbox style in other genres. No wait.
Actually, EVE Online has experienced a decrease in subs. Granted, I'm pretty sure that it will gain subs again when Incarna goes live. I consider EVE Online as an example of a game that shows it makes a difference when you do your expansions right.
As for the popularity of (pure) sandbox design among MMO gamers, well, doesn't history give examples of that? SWG even with its big IP and its pure sandbox design couldn't enthrall more than 300k MMO gamers at its peak, and it was even bleeding tens of thousands of subs which was the reason for the NGE in the first place: if it was growing and increasing as EQ did beforehand or WoW was doing, then there would have been no need for such desperate, rigorous measures.
Also, looking at former years, themepark MMO's are the ones that have got more MMO gamers playing them than pure sandbox MMO's: it was a themepark design in the first place that got whole hordes of people playing MMO's, and it's themepark designed MMO's that rake in the big sub numbers and even hold the bigger sub numbers right now. I doubt that besides EVE Online there's even one sandbox MMO that has more than 100k subs, maybe even questionable how many have more than 50k subs now.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes when GW2, SWTOR, ArcheAge, TSW, Firefall and WoD will arrive. Personally I think that the way forward in integrating themepark design with sandbox design smartly, because both have their merits that the other design doesn't have or in a lesser degree.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I was talking with a guild mate of mine about another game where we were wondering if we were going to continue to subscribe to, about this very topic. I summed it up like this.
The current MMO market is saturated with crap, done by underfunded, overconfident, underskilled, oversided ego ridden programers and devopers that see a chance to make a quick buck/euro.
Hell lets look at the last few "major" game releases in the past 2 years. Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, and APB. Now all 3 of those games had HUGE amounts of hype generated here and on thousands of other forums about them. The developers all promissed the universe and delivered a lump of coal, or in some cases a lump of shat. They all were made by realitively small firms, that were funded by small budgets, when compaired to SOE, Blizzard, or Turbine. They all "rushed" their games to get them out early, or ontime, only to fail in getting out a playable product on release. They all struggled with angry playerbases for the first few months, and one of them didnt make it, APB. But all the while they charged premium prices for their sub-premium products. And we like lemmings paid those prices in the false hope that if we fund them, they will make it better. Trueth is, they dont. They DO however take that money and deposite it into their accounts and pay what bills they have with it, and put out a token patch every so many weeks, or when the masses get restless, and hope that a few new bells and whistles will keep the children happy for another month, while they continue to dance around the root problems in all their games..... BAD CODING!!!
Instead of hiring people with the money from those subscription fees they choose to unjustly charge the players for a game that is NOWHERE NEAR what they promised or even whats on their original website. This is not WoW's fault, no the crap game syndrome has been around since before WoW... hell WELL before WoW.
Lets look back to when most of you were in kindergarden.... 1999. There was about a hundred MMO'esk games on the market. Some of them werent that good, hell most of them werent that good. But they were still charging to play by the hour in some cases.
Now its all about the quick buck, not about the quality of a good product, or actually producing something new, and interesting. For me I have been waiting for a good "sandbox" game. Something like UO-preTrem, or SWG-PreCU. But I doubt any MAJOR game company will attempt to do one, as long as the mindless masses continue to pay for substandard crap month after month.
So I pose this question to all of you who bother to read my post.
WHY DO YOU KEEP PAYING FOR CRAP?
If its no good, stop paying for it, make them listen by hitting them where it matters, their wallet.
So I pose this question to all of you who bother to read my post.
WHY DO YOU KEEP PAYING FOR CRAP?
If its no good, stop paying for it, make them listen by hitting them where it matters, their wallet.
Isn't the reason obvious? Because what you consider crap doesn't have to be crap for another gamer.
As example, you might dislike golf or hockey or R&B, but that doesn't mean that there are whole masses of people around the world that enjoy those things that you might not enjoy.
In the end, what kind of design an MMO is doesn't mean shit.
People play the things that they have fun in, and they keep playing what they think is most fun.
It doesn't mean that there aren't better possible alternatives, but what they're playing right now is what people think is most fun for them right now. You can make the point that there's too little actual choice and variety for people to choose from(although that's only partially true with the hundreds upon hundreds of MMO's that's out there), but you can't make a point that people choose to play this or that MMO because it bores them most: they pay and play it because it provides gaming fun to them.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
Nothing is going to bring in WOW numbers. La point.
The rest of your post is pure unoriginal speculation. No one knows. No one would think that sandbox gamers would be found in themepark audiences in large numbers either. Why do you? It's a risk, that's all. It doesnt have a proven model. No one knows how big or small any audience is.
Eve will not bring in wow numbers. That has nothing to do with being a sandbox. That has to do with eve. People dont quit eve becasue it's a sandbox. Even if it had content from start to end as a pure themepark, it wouldnt be more popular. It's because of eve, not sandbox games. Another sandbox game wont compete with eve because its a sandbox. Do you know why people play eve at all?
Thats why its funny that eve can beat most of the clones. It's super niche among mmo sandbox lovers even. Its old. Its point and click space combat for christ's sake. The vast majority of gamers have never even heard of it. The vast majority of the old sandbox players dont play it. Yet.
It grows too, sometimes. Maybe themeparkers are being converted?
Losts of people like sandbox style in other genres. No wait.
Actually, EVE Online has experienced a decrease in subs. Granted, I'm pretty sure that it will gain subs again when Incarna goes live. I consider EVE Online as an example of a game that shows it makes a difference when you do your expansions right.
As for the popularity of (pure) sandbox design among MMO gamers, well, doesn't history give examples of that? SWG even with its big IP and its pure sandbox design couldn't enthrall more than 300k MMO gamers at its peak, and it was even bleeding tens of thousands of subs which was the reason for the NGE in the first place: if it was growing and increasing as EQ did beforehand or WoW was doing, then there would have been no need for such desperate, rigorous measures.
Also, looking at former years, themepark MMO's are the ones that have got more MMO gamers playing them than pure sandbox MMO's: it was a themepark design in the first place that got whole hordes of people playing MMO's, and it's themepark designed MMO's that rake in the big sub numbers and even hold the bigger sub numbers right now. I doubt that besides EVE Online there's even one sandbox MMO that has more than 100k subs, maybe even questionable how many have more than 50k subs now.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes when GW2, SWTOR, ArcheAge, TSW, Firefall and WoD will arrive. Personally I think that the way forward in integrating themepark design with sandbox design smartly, because both have their merits that the other design doesn't have or in a lesser degree.
You may be right. But lets just look at swg. Sandbox had the most subs, hybrid had fewer, themepark had fewest. If your going by design only, with a popular IP, given all 3 types. The last was even a free client. Sandbox wins. With your opinion, i proved my point.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You may be right. But lets just look at swg. Sandbox had the most subs, hybrid had fewer, themepark had fewest. If your going by design only, with a popular IP, given all 3 types. The last was even a free client. Sandbox wins. With your opinion, i proved my point.
Eh? I don't know what you're referring to. What examples of this did you have in mind?
Personally I don't consider any of the MMO's before WoW themepark MMO's, looking at the differences in MMO design I don't find it strange that the term 'themepark MMO' came in use with WoW, because that's the best example of that type of design, and MMO's that came afterwards come closer to that kind of design than the MMO's before WoW ever did.
And with WoW, the rise and popularity of the themepark MMO design became clear, themepark MMO raked in the most subs consistently collectively from 2005 onwards to now.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
Not even close on that one. sorry
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Eve is 2nd in command in sub games in the west. Aion doesnt have any in the west, like lineage, LOTRO wasnt as successful as you think, nor do they have more subs now. They only sold to WB for 160 mil. Great for an indie!! But not that great.
My point was how does the genre improve since wow, when a pre wow game has grown and post wow clones cant beat it. They wither and die and go f2p while the old sandbox grows and grows.
It's either a testament to the sandbox and ccp, or the industry has gotten worse.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
What is it then?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Not sure why you are espousing the the 'raid hate'. Having a boss in a video-game is nothing new, (Mario/Bowser anyone?) and sometimes it makes sense for an MMO to have one.
Not seeing 'worlds are being destroyed' bit either, people will play a section of the game that tthey want. Whether that is enjoyable/fun or not is irrevelant as you can't pysically force players to play a certain part of your game.
A game-dev can encourage by putting something nice (IE Epic gear) so the playerbase might do something but at the end of the day, the playerbase will decide what section of the game they will play.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Most decide not to raid. So why cant they have top teir crafted gear again?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Dofus, Rift, Aion and Runescape are some of the big names after WoW. There's WoW numbers and then there's the rest - and Eve is comfortably in "the rest" bin.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Define 'most' and how you got that figure. Last I checked, PVE endgame (raid) was fairly popular in WoW and other MMOs.
PVP is also a valid playing style that is supported by many MMOs including WoW.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I know LOTS of people including myself that don't like raids, they take way too long.
PS- Aion is way up there even in the west.
In terms of raw subscribers yes. But don't sell Eve short . You have to take into account all of eve's players play on ONE server. Lets see warcrap do that. They are continually working on upgrading the single server "world" to work more efficiently. WoW is working on developing features to charge you more for nothing.
But I digress. WoW IS the greatest game of all time. Its a gamers paradise and whatever else anyone want's to say so long as the vomit raid till you die or you are a POS Scrub instant gratification crowd STAYS in their WoW. Don't come polluting the new games coming out with the wow crowd in new game xxx chat talking about how wow is soooo much better cause it has "puke feature 2264287462378462646" Friggin stay in WoW... PLEASE I beg you.
PS and lets face it, the WoW crowd hates the Eve one (in general) Probably due to the fact you come into eve and say , Warcraft this or that xxxxx and the results are =
A - you'll get killed for it.
B - you'll get killed for it.
And to add to that, you will get killed for it lol.
I wonder how Mortal Online, Darkfall and Dawntide would have been if they had a 200 million dollar budget.
And I wonder why the big companies who have those 200 million dollar waste it on a copy of another game and hype it up to be a golden turd when in reality is just a turd in turdville.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Personally I think even Wow was crap too they have made people always want easy access and no hard graft in any MMO's so I don't bother since all this shit has come out.
Asbo
I agree with the title, I want my 6 1/2 years back.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I can't get myself also anymore into mmo's im prolly burned out.
First i hate lvls and xp then also item based and kill X- boars,rats or wolfs whatever.
Freedom and world full of danger and adventure exploring find secrets and dynamic roaming mobs/npc with there own lifes.
I hoped Darkfall would have that but it dissapointed me alot. World looks great and i love the open world without loadscreens or instance. But the quests are terible kill 400x mobs aahhh...and pve sucks plus you dont see any mobs untill you come close they spawn at small area no roaming mobs they are always at same spot:( Weather system and sound also dissapointed me alot plus the whole lvling to lvl100-120skill that takes along time i hate NUMBERS:(
We realy need a mmo with total freedom of elder scrolls but without numbers and some good dynamic and realistic roaming mobs/npcs and weather system with good sound. And craft thats exciting and fun. Building house where you want or small camp or village town where ever you want.
Im playing solo games now untill maybe oneday some company make my game:)
Why is it people need this explained to them? It's really not hard to see is it? EVE grows as it does due to it's competition, which is basically none. It's the only sandbox out that has high production values, as well as great word of mouth advertising. (before it's said) No Darkfall is not competition for EVE, it's a totally different game with a different niche in mind.
Now look at theme-park AAA competition, it's a totally different ball game. Most of these games are in direct competition with each other and WOW. There are only so many MMO gamers to draw from, meaning the barrel has to dry up at some point. Of course some of these games are having problems.
It's a testament to the fact offering something for the other side of the equation (sandboxers), still isn't going to bring in anyway near WOW type figures, even if it has no direct competition. Which is sad, I to prefer sandbox games, there just are not nearly as many of us out there as there are people who enjoy the Theme-park approach.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well Dofus and runescape are children mmo's with children's prices. Aion is an eastern game, and Rift is only going one direction. They may have more subs technically, but not exactly a comparison. Runescape is also one of them pre wow games still beating the new clones. Is it a sandbox too? Dofus a flash game released in 2005.
So you may be right, i guess. I wasnt thinking of childrens games with lower subs or eastern mmos. Western companies with 15 dolla subs is what I meant, sorry. that leaves us with rift.
Or is there others?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The OP said nothing about region of production or target audience. Aion might have been made in Korea but it's a legitimate western MMO just like WoW, EVE, LotRO, etc. Yes, EVE has been a success outside of the "WoW" inspired genre and good for it. I would be playing myself if it wasn't a sci-fi game.
Yes, WoW did set a standard that was a dumbed down colorful version of it predecessors that has left us with more of the same. WoW also brought in millions of new MMO gamers. WoW's level of success has allowed a higher level of production in each MMOs after it and continues to do so. We are still left with a model that is sub-par by "true MMO" standards but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are already games coming out, though some in the distant future, that look to get off the tracks.
For now we're stuck wearing Mickey Mouse hats wondering when Zim is going to come and kick his arse.
Just not worth my time anymore.
All thats needed is for someone to make a game like Ultima Online.
Skill goes up by useing it not leveling. Pvp that if you lose you actually lose something, not just respawn and run back. No epic ledgendary equipment that takes 25 people and 4 hours to get. Then you will see a game that actually requires skill to be good at it.
I can only hope.
Nothing is going to bring in WOW numbers. La point.
The rest of your post is pure unoriginal speculation. No one knows. No one would think that sandbox gamers would be found in themepark audiences in large numbers either. Why do you? It's a risk, that's all. It doesnt have a proven model. No one knows how big or small any audience is.
Eve will not bring in wow numbers. That has nothing to do with being a sandbox. That has to do with eve. People dont quit eve becasue it's a sandbox. Even if it had content from start to end as a pure themepark, it wouldnt be more popular. It's because of eve, not sandbox games. Another sandbox game wont compete with eve because its a sandbox. Do you know why people play eve at all?
Thats why its funny that eve can beat most of the clones. It's super niche among mmo sandbox lovers even. Its old. Its point and click space combat for christ's sake. The vast majority of gamers have never even heard of it. The vast majority of the old sandbox players dont play it. Yet.
It grows too, sometimes. Maybe themeparkers are being converted?
Losts of people like sandbox style in other genres. No wait.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The OP didnt ask.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Actually, EVE Online has experienced a decrease in subs. Granted, I'm pretty sure that it will gain subs again when Incarna goes live. I consider EVE Online as an example of a game that shows it makes a difference when you do your expansions right.
As for the popularity of (pure) sandbox design among MMO gamers, well, doesn't history give examples of that? SWG even with its big IP and its pure sandbox design couldn't enthrall more than 300k MMO gamers at its peak, and it was even bleeding tens of thousands of subs which was the reason for the NGE in the first place: if it was growing and increasing as EQ did beforehand or WoW was doing, then there would have been no need for such desperate, rigorous measures.
Also, looking at former years, themepark MMO's are the ones that have got more MMO gamers playing them than pure sandbox MMO's: it was a themepark design in the first place that got whole hordes of people playing MMO's, and it's themepark designed MMO's that rake in the big sub numbers and even hold the bigger sub numbers right now. I doubt that besides EVE Online there's even one sandbox MMO that has more than 100k subs, maybe even questionable how many have more than 50k subs now.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes when GW2, SWTOR, ArcheAge, TSW, Firefall and WoD will arrive. Personally I think that the way forward in integrating themepark design with sandbox design smartly, because both have their merits that the other design doesn't have or in a lesser degree.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I was talking with a guild mate of mine about another game where we were wondering if we were going to continue to subscribe to, about this very topic. I summed it up like this.
The current MMO market is saturated with crap, done by underfunded, overconfident, underskilled, oversided ego ridden programers and devopers that see a chance to make a quick buck/euro.
Hell lets look at the last few "major" game releases in the past 2 years. Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, and APB. Now all 3 of those games had HUGE amounts of hype generated here and on thousands of other forums about them. The developers all promissed the universe and delivered a lump of coal, or in some cases a lump of shat. They all were made by realitively small firms, that were funded by small budgets, when compaired to SOE, Blizzard, or Turbine. They all "rushed" their games to get them out early, or ontime, only to fail in getting out a playable product on release. They all struggled with angry playerbases for the first few months, and one of them didnt make it, APB. But all the while they charged premium prices for their sub-premium products. And we like lemmings paid those prices in the false hope that if we fund them, they will make it better. Trueth is, they dont. They DO however take that money and deposite it into their accounts and pay what bills they have with it, and put out a token patch every so many weeks, or when the masses get restless, and hope that a few new bells and whistles will keep the children happy for another month, while they continue to dance around the root problems in all their games..... BAD CODING!!!
Instead of hiring people with the money from those subscription fees they choose to unjustly charge the players for a game that is NOWHERE NEAR what they promised or even whats on their original website. This is not WoW's fault, no the crap game syndrome has been around since before WoW... hell WELL before WoW.
Lets look back to when most of you were in kindergarden.... 1999. There was about a hundred MMO'esk games on the market. Some of them werent that good, hell most of them werent that good. But they were still charging to play by the hour in some cases.
Now its all about the quick buck, not about the quality of a good product, or actually producing something new, and interesting. For me I have been waiting for a good "sandbox" game. Something like UO-preTrem, or SWG-PreCU. But I doubt any MAJOR game company will attempt to do one, as long as the mindless masses continue to pay for substandard crap month after month.
So I pose this question to all of you who bother to read my post.
WHY DO YOU KEEP PAYING FOR CRAP?
If its no good, stop paying for it, make them listen by hitting them where it matters, their wallet.
So much crap, so little quality.
Isn't the reason obvious? Because what you consider crap doesn't have to be crap for another gamer.
As example, you might dislike golf or hockey or R&B, but that doesn't mean that there are whole masses of people around the world that enjoy those things that you might not enjoy.
In the end, what kind of design an MMO is doesn't mean shit.
People play the things that they have fun in, and they keep playing what they think is most fun.
It doesn't mean that there aren't better possible alternatives, but what they're playing right now is what people think is most fun for them right now. You can make the point that there's too little actual choice and variety for people to choose from(although that's only partially true with the hundreds upon hundreds of MMO's that's out there), but you can't make a point that people choose to play this or that MMO because it bores them most: they pay and play it because it provides gaming fun to them.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You may be right. But lets just look at swg. Sandbox had the most subs, hybrid had fewer, themepark had fewest. If your going by design only, with a popular IP, given all 3 types. The last was even a free client. Sandbox wins. With your opinion, i proved my point.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Eh? I don't know what you're referring to. What examples of this did you have in mind?
Personally I don't consider any of the MMO's before WoW themepark MMO's, looking at the differences in MMO design I don't find it strange that the term 'themepark MMO' came in use with WoW, because that's the best example of that type of design, and MMO's that came afterwards come closer to that kind of design than the MMO's before WoW ever did.
And with WoW, the rise and popularity of the themepark MMO design became clear, themepark MMO raked in the most subs consistently collectively from 2005 onwards to now.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What you call 'crap' is not for someone else. Gasp! People have different taste!
I don't really like Jazz but that doesn't mean Jazz is crap.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.