On my way to post an update that my longtime project had finally been brought back from obscurity I noticed this thred. It makes me glad to hear that many people actually are looking for a sandbox experience and I hope you'll check out Divergence as it is now!
I think you have all skewed the definition of a Sandbox and a Theampark....
Sandbox is a world where all players can access all area's
Theampark is an area inside of a world that can only be accessed by a small group IE a dungeon in WoW is Theampark content...
I contend that WoW is a Sandbox with Theampark content because by and large the entire WoW world can be accessed by any character at any level with the exception being the dungeons...
Now lets look at SWTOR.... This is Theampark to a new terrible extent.... a player cannot go anywhere in the world he wants because he is stuck in every zone until he completes the quests to move on... this is Theampark!
The difference is the freedom of movement of a player in a true Sandbox there is no where a player can hide from another player determined to find him....
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
I think you have all skewed the definition of a Sandbox and a Theampark....
Sandbox is a world where all players can access all area's
Theampark is an area inside of a world that can only be accessed by a small group IE a dungeon in WoW is Theampark content...
I contend that WoW is a Sandbox with Theampark content because by and large the entire WoW world can be accessed by any character at any level with the exception being the dungeons...
Now lets look at SWTOR.... This is Theampark to a new terrible extent.... a player cannot go anywhere in the world he wants because he is stuck in every zone until he completes the quests to move on... this is Theampark!
The difference is the freedom of movement of a player in a true Sandbox there is no where a player can hide from another player determined to find him....
NO NO NO NO NO NO and NO!!
A sandbox is the absence of a script and artificial barriers, and lets you impact the gameworld. The freedom to go where you want is a sandbox element, but just one of many.
A pure sandbox is just a box of sand and Minecraft is probably the closest we can get to a pure sandbox game. Any less and you would basicly be writing code to play.
WoW has a plethora of artificial bariers, many that make sense in order to have a fun game and some that just get in the way of fun.. too many of the last one to claim that it is a sandbox.
When I played WoW I was sickened by the bind on pickup/equip mechanic.. Even if you could craft useful items that werent by far outshined by drops or rewards, they couldnt be traded, so it made crafting a requirement rather than a playstyle.
Combined with the lack of item degredation there was just no point to being a crafter... So to give players something to do in the game, cause there was very little sand in this box, they have them grind endlessly for better drops or rewards.
But to clarify the differences between Sandbox and Themepark I will list some examples.
Sandbox elements:
No "locked doors" (you cant enter because you are the wrong race or the wrong level or you are supposed to go in from the other end) it might have some restrictions... but you are able to get around that by getting a "key" from someone else.
Monsters shouldnt be tethered so you cant pull them away from their allies or so you can just step back to reset them if they were tougher than you thought.
Doing anything should have an effect in the world, from the small like denying a resource to everyone else because it is now in your pocket, or you just killed a monster so now noone else can kill that particular monster (I personally accept respawns as part of a game but it isnt sandbox), up to major changes in the world like ownership of regions,building a road, or leveling a mountain, and so on.
The abillity to decide who your alliess and enemies are and to betray and attack allies. And the ability for the community to deal with rampant backstabbing.
All in all; very few hard rules and very little control in the hands of the game developers of what goes on.. but with emergent gameplay and rules that come from the player community.
Themepark elements:
Scripted progression. First you are here and you do this thing and then you get to go there and do some other thing. Gotta do all these things and go these places before you get to do "endgame".
You have to use your skills this way. Because we planned it that way and we wouldnt know what to do if we allowed you to charm that monster, or let casters wear plate armor.
No you cannot trade that item as it would be the beginning of a free economy that we wouldnt have control over.
No you cannot have a lasting effect on the gameworld, because that doesnt jive with what we planned for the next expantions.
Oh you want to go on that ride again? Sorry for health and safety reasons you have to wait a week.
That guy is ticking you off, well you could try and submit a harrassment ticket and we will look at it in a week. Oh, you want do something about it now?.. well tough shit.. he is your ally and you cannot. Oh, you dont want to be his ally... well you could transfer to another server.
Invisible walls that block you off from going where you please.
Tethered mobs that, while protecting the game from exploits (in a sandbox, many "exploits" would be completly legit), take alot of gameplay away from the game.
Basicly themeparks are full of rules and restrictions that allow the developers to maintain control of the game and how it is played. They have planned for almost every moment of your game experience, except for some of the player interaction.
In my view Themeparks are single player games that happen to have other people in them. And a sandbox is a world that happens to be a game.
A sandbox is the absence of a script and artificial barriers, and lets you impact the gameworld. The freedom to go where you want is a sandbox element, but just one of many.
...
In my view Themeparks are single player games that happen to have other people in them. And a sandbox is a world that happens to be a game.
Can't we make it simple.
Theme park like a park , you ride and ride again until you tired of game.
Thought in real life , you have to wait for your turn (lol life's a sandbox game) .
In Theme park game , you don't have to wait for your turn.
You don't to worry about other player take away your turn.
You play it until you get sick of it and move to next game.
Sandbox mean a sand box , it limit of sand so if someone take away you sand , you can't play with it.
So it mean any action of player will effect to the sand box.
Not like theme park where everything ready made and you only have to ride it.
In Sand box main story caused by player
For example.
You need sand to build your dream castle.
Then someone also need sand to build his sand castle.
So it will end up a fight between players to hold his hand on the sand (rescources).
lol , it your story when you fight with other , because game don't build it in first place.
And i agree with your last line.
But if i have to say who will win in Sandbox VS ThemePark,
I think theme park win the game of life.
To created nice and large sandbox you will need extreme large fund.
The more large and complex of virtual world , the harder to run it smooth.
So we can't hope anyone will take a risk to created a big game like that.
Unless we have a billionaire want to make a master piece art who don't care about money earning from his work.
lol. Tell me your true thought ,
Do you want to play a true sandbox game with out date 90s 2D dots art
or a beauty theme game with highest 3D graphic ?
You have to know that sandbox can't become a beauty woman,
i doubt any beauty sandbox will come out in 10 more years.
A sandbox is the absence of a script and artificial barriers, and lets you impact the gameworld. The freedom to go where you want is a sandbox element, but just one of many.
A pure sandbox is just a box of sand and Minecraft is probably the closest we can get to a pure sandbox game. Any less and you would basicly be writing code to play.
Basicly themeparks are full of rules and restrictions that allow the developers to maintain control of the game and how it is interaction.
In my view Themeparks are single player games played. They have planned for almost every moment of your game experience, except for some of the player interaction.
I think this best describes sandboxs and themepaks in the most encompassing way possible (atleast from what I have seen so far).
I think you have all skewed the definition of a Sandbox and a Theampark....
Sandbox is a world where all players can access all area's
Theampark is an area inside of a world that can only be accessed by a small group IE a dungeon in WoW is Theampark content...
I contend that WoW is a Sandbox with Theampark content because by and large the entire WoW world can be accessed by any character at any level with the exception being the dungeons...
Now lets look at SWTOR.... This is Theampark to a new terrible extent.... a player cannot go anywhere in the world he wants because he is stuck in every zone until he completes the quests to move on... this is Theampark!
The difference is the freedom of movement of a player in a true Sandbox there is no where a player can hide from another player determined to find him....
NO NO NO NO NO NO and NO!!
A sandbox is the absence of a script and artificial barriers, and lets you impact the gameworld. The freedom to go where you want is a sandbox element, but just one of many.
A pure sandbox is just a box of sand and Minecraft is probably the closest we can get to a pure sandbox game. Any less and you would basicly be writing code to play.
WoW has a plethora of artificial bariers, many that make sense in order to have a fun game and some that just get in the way of fun.. too many of the last one to claim that it is a sandbox.
When I played WoW I was sickened by the bind on pickup/equip mechanic.. Even if you could craft useful items that werent by far outshined by drops or rewards, they couldnt be traded, so it made crafting a requirement rather than a playstyle.
Combined with the lack of item degredation there was just no point to being a crafter... So to give players something to do in the game, cause there was very little sand in this box, they have them grind endlessly for better drops or rewards.
But to clarify the differences between Sandbox and Themepark I will list some examples.
Sandbox elements:
No "locked doors" (you cant enter because you are the wrong race or the wrong level or you are supposed to go in from the other end) it might have some restrictions... but you are able to get around that by getting a "key" from someone else.
Monsters shouldnt be tethered so you cant pull them away from their allies or so you can just step back to reset them if they were tougher than you thought.
Doing anything should have an effect in the world, from the small like denying a resource to everyone else because it is now in your pocket, or you just killed a monster so now noone else can kill that particular monster (I personally accept respawns as part of a game but it isnt sandbox), up to major changes in the world like ownership of regions,building a road, or leveling a mountain, and so on.
The abillity to decide who your alliess and enemies are and to betray and attack allies. And the ability for the community to deal with rampant backstabbing.
All in all; very few hard rules and very little control in the hands of the game developers of what goes on.. but with emergent gameplay and rules that come from the player community.
Themepark elements:
Scripted progression. First you are here and you do this thing and then you get to go there and do some other thing. Gotta do all these things and go these places before you get to do "endgame".
You have to use your skills this way. Because we planned it that way and we wouldnt know what to do if we allowed you to charm that monster, or let casters wear plate armor.
No you cannot trade that item as it would be the beginning of a free economy that we wouldnt have control over.
No you cannot have a lasting effect on the gameworld, because that doesnt jive with what we planned for the next expantions.
Oh you want to go on that ride again? Sorry for health and safety reasons you have to wait a week.
That guy is ticking you off, well you could try and submit a harrassment ticket and we will look at it in a week. Oh, you want do something about it now?.. well tough shit.. he is your ally and you cannot. Oh, you dont want to be his ally... well you could transfer to another server.
Invisible walls that block you off from going where you please.
Tethered mobs that, while protecting the game from exploits (in a sandbox, many "exploits" would be completly legit), take alot of gameplay away from the game.
Basicly themeparks are full of rules and restrictions that allow the developers to maintain control of the game and how it is played. They have planned for almost every moment of your game experience, except for some of the player interaction.
In my view Themeparks are single player games that happen to have other people in them. And a sandbox is a world that happens to be a game.
You are getting to focused in the rules of coding and less focused on what makes a sandbox and what makes a themepark.
Very simple.
Sandbox is about how restrictive the game is in the choices you can make and how much effect on the world. Themepark is about where it can take you whether you choose to or not you only push forward you can't push in your own direction.
There are many parts to a game, and breaking them down will help tell you if it's a sandbox or themepark. Both have their pros and cons. They will also have somethings in common.
Social interaction (A) and player interaction with enviroment (B)
NEW THEMEPARK
A) Characters may form and join guilds, allowing characters within the guild access to the guild's chat channel, the guild name and optionally allowing other features, including a guild tabard, guild bank, and dues.
The term "instance" comes from each group or party having a separate copy, or instance, of the dungeon, complete with their own enemies to defeat and their own treasure or rewards.[39] This allows a group to explore areas and complete quests without others interfering. Dungeons are spread over the game world and are designed for characters of varying progression
Old RPG
A).....features a unique allegiance and fealty system that creates formal links between players and rewards cooperative play.A player of equal or lower level can swear allegiance to a player of the same or higher level, becoming a vassal of a patron. The patron earns a small percentage of bonus experience based on what the vassal makes, while the vassal is motivated to seek a patron exchange for money, items, game knowledge or protection.
A) In the words of one reviewer: "At worst, the allegiance system is a multilevel marketing scheme, whereby greedy, uncaring Patrons enlist as many Vassals as possible in order to gain large amounts of bonus experience. But at best, the allegiance system can provide a tightly knit companionship for players genuinely interested in helping others and developing an organized assembly." Players may also join together in fellowships, temporarily splitting the experience they gain amongst themselves.
The world itself is large at over 500 square miles (1,300 km2).Unlike many other games in the genre, there are no zones. This means players can cross the world on foot, without loading screens or invisible barriers, and any terrain that can be seen in the distance is a real object in the world. It also has a much longer viewing distance than other games of its vintage, with mountains, bodies of water and other terrain being visible long before it is actually approached.
The world is also dotted with a system of one-way portals which expedite travel. Knowing the location and destination of the portals, as well as lifestones, is of vital strategic importance - especially on the Darktide (PVP) server, where allegiances battle each other constantly for dominance over lucrative hunting zones and trading cities.
Apart from the seamless surface world, some of the portals also lead to intricate dungeons. Many of the dungeons are part of quests and contain unique treasures. Dungeons are often much more difficult to navigate than the surface world. They include dizzying labyrinths of passageways in which it is possible to get lost or cut off from your adventuring group, trapped in pits due to missing difficult jumps, stuck behind locked doors, or simply surrounded and overwhelmed by beasts. Some doors require keys. Other dungeons have a series of levers which open otherwise impassable doors, and require group teamwork and timing to run or jump through.
These two games are Asheron's Call ( Released on November 2, 1999 ) & World of Warcraft (released on November 23, 2004 ).
In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here .
Remember to stay on topic.
Thanks.
ok, making it simple;
-Sandbox games: games with players who want to make content for themselves, can think for themselves and want to do what they think is fun;
-themepark games: games where the devs decide what is fun for the player.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.
It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.
Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.
That's no even remotely true. Content does NOT define a sandbox or themepark.
It does.
all video games are sandboxes. That's what the game engine is. The restrictions come from the developers who add stuff to the game.
The restrictions come from the developers.. not so much because they add stuff. Much more because they are afraid their added stuff will be modified or destroyed from the players, hence they lock it, make the content static, or just used in one way. Like riding the rollercoaster, but not rebuild or modify it.
Originally posted by observer
Sandboxes = Content (sand) created by clients/users with Tools (shovel/hands/water), provided by developers of the various inter-connected protocols.
Thempark = Content (pre-defined constructions/objects) created by developers, which clients/users can experience with limited use and restrictions.
It is really much more about the Tools or the lack of.. and not so much about Content.
You could have a world filled with Towns and NPCs and millions of Quests and could be a perfectly sandbox as long as you have the Tools and everything applies to it.
Example. NPC with Quest. You kill NPC, quest is gone. Perfectly sandbox style. At the same time you could add another NPC with another Quest. Exaxtly the same with Towns.. as long as you can afterwards modify or even destroy it, it is completely sandbox style. Ok, better would be most probably solve quest partially. Quest is closed for some time. Solve quest definite. Quest is gone forever.
Example:
Story: There is a place somewhere with a rat problem. So the herald of that place handles out a Quest to kill 10 rats, as long as there are rats around. If the rats are gone, the Quest is closed. But over time rats may immigrate from other places, and the problem will arise again. And the Quest is again available. But if someone comes up with a clever idea to prevent rat immigration, the problem is solved forever. (Quest is destroyed)
And to go on:
And a good sandbox game should have content in the beginning. It should be able to played almost like a themepark. With the difference that the world may change over time. (old content disappears and new player and developer created content appears)
There is a lot of potential in it, which is more or less not used at all.
- We have either empty worlds, where the player have to create content first. (like Minecraft, Wurms, or almost any so called pure sandbox)
- Or games with static content but sandbox tools to build up. You cannot modify or destroy the old developer content, but you can add new content. Examples like UO, SWG or ArcheAge. So called Hybrids.
But would it be not more fun, if you could modify the developer content, too? (Not destroying within a minute, but more like slowly evolving and developing over time. So insta destruction is always dangerous)
Towns will grow or shrink, will look completely different over time. New ones will appear, and old ones may disappear.
Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.
It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.
Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.
No, it's not. A theme park has tons of invisible walls that "force" you to travel somewhere, much like the ropes you see near a ride where people are guided in an organized fashion toward the attraction. Themeparks also restrict your content by locking it out until you visit a specific "attraction," whereas in a sandbox you can enter content whenever you wish.
But probably the biggest difference between themepark and sandbox is the content. In a themepark, developers have to create content faster than the playerbase consumes in order to be successful. This usually leads to repetative expansions that are basically the same rehashed garbage they put out last expansion with a new skin... <cough cough> WoW <cough cough>. In a sandbox, players create their own content and gives developers ample time to work on more quality content to consume.
I'm personally more into themeparks. Though I'll try to be objective.
Why? I'm more into crisp mechanics and combat. Most themeparks deliver on this far more then sandboxes do. I also really appreciate lore, story and characters. Some scripted things can be super awesome too if done right (though, scripting can get stale very fast). Themeparks could also learn a lot from sandboxes when it comes to making your character more unique, allowing more player freedom, non-scripted things, etc.
Now, I do love the idea of sandboxes. Where it's more up to the player to run the economy and make their own stories. One of the downsides to sandboxes though, in my opinion, is they only appeal to people that have a good imagination. What happens when someone that doesn't have a great imagination tries to play a sandbox? they are left bored, confused and probably frustrated too. I personally haven't found a sandbox MMO that appeals to me mechanically or artistically yet (since that is most important to me) and I have other, more preferred ways of expressing my imagination.
I do believe one day a developer is going to get the perfect blend. Where the themeparker is going to be satisfied with the game mechanics and story elements -- but there will also be tools for players to carve their own path in a massive, non-linear, open ended and player run universe. Some would argue that the two ideas are exclusive to each other and don't work together but I kinda disagree. Life is proof that it can work. There are some games that are starting to toy with this now, but only time will tell I guess.
Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.
It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.
Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.
That's no even remotely true. Content does NOT define a sandbox or themepark.
It does.
all video games are sandboxes. That's what the game engine is. The restrictions come from the developers who add stuff to the game.
The restrictions come from the developers.. not so much because they add stuff. Much more because they are afraid their added stuff will be modified or destroyed from the players, hence they lock it, make the content static, or just used in one way. Like riding the rollercoaster, but not rebuild or modify it.
Originally posted by observer
Sandboxes = Content (sand) created by clients/users with Tools (shovel/hands/water), provided by developers of the various inter-connected protocols.
Thempark = Content (pre-defined constructions/objects) created by developers, which clients/users can experience with limited use and restrictions.
It is really much more about the Tools or the lack of.. and not so much about Content.
You could have a world filled with Towns and NPCs and millions of Quests and could be a perfectly sandbox as long as you have the Tools and everything applies to it.
Example. NPC with Quest. You kill NPC, quest is gone. Perfectly sandbox style. At the same time you could add another NPC with another Quest. Exaxtly the same with Towns.. as long as you can afterwards modify or even destroy it, it is completely sandbox style. Ok, better would be most probably solve quest partially. Quest is closed for some time. Solve quest definite. Quest is gone forever.
Example:
Story: There is a place somewhere with a rat problem. So the herald of that place handles out a Quest to kill 10 rats, as long as there are rats around. If the rats are gone, the Quest is closed. But over time rats may immigrate from other places, and the problem will arise again. And the Quest is again available. But if someone comes up with a clever idea to prevent rat immigration, the problem is solved forever. (Quest is destroyed)
And to go on:
And a good sandbox game should have content in the beginning. It should be able to played almost like a themepark. With the difference that the world may change over time. (old content disappears and new player and developer created content appears)
There is a lot of potential in it, which is more or less not used at all.
- We have either empty worlds, where the player have to create content first. (like Minecraft, Wurms, or almost any so called pure sandbox)
- Or games with static content but sandbox tools to build up. You cannot modify or destroy the old developer content, but you can add new content. Examples like UO, SWG or ArcheAge. So called Hybrids.
But would it be not more fun, if you could modify the developer content, too? (Not destroying within a minute, but more like slowly evolving and developing over time. So insta destruction is always dangerous)
Towns will grow or shrink, will look completely different over time. New ones will appear, and old ones may disappear.
here is the problem:
griefers will kill the quest npc, just for fun, and the content will be gone
if you have a very small, and tight community, then it might Work, but not for bigger games
look at EVE,,that how far you can go with a sandbox game
even CCP are trying to go for other players/platforms now,,would they do that, if EVE was swimming in Money?
No wonder there are always so many discussions comming from these terms. Reading through this everyone seem to have a different definition, so who not another one.
First by whatever definition You use, there are many games which are neither Sandbox nor Themepark. Because a game is not Sandbox doesn't necessary make it Themepark. These are my defintions.
Sandbox:
A world with little limitations to what a player can do, where a player can go. This world only contains the rules that allow the world to exist and the players to exist in it, while allowing maximum possible freedom. These games typically offer high degree of PvP freedom, but not limited to PvP games, it is just easier to make sandbox with PvP mechanics. Often Sandbox offers players to influence the world physically and financially, and has a minimum of status-quo mechanics. Non-instanced is not an absolute necessity but it falls naturally for a Sandbox.
Themepark:
A world with a high degree of designed adventure, with alot of limitations to what a player can do. This world is build up of "rides" to try that a game designer has pre-build and has a high degree of control over. This is Your typical quest hubber, story driven, often instanced and raiding are mostly very designed in nature. Also to further control the game, it is also often ingame currency with gear NPC based. The defintion can be taken pretty directly out of the name, You enter a park (game world) where You can go and try out the various designed Rides (quests, stories, events, raids, instanced pvp).
So by this definition I would give a few examples. EVE is high Sandbox, WoW(as of today)/Gw2 are themepark, AC/EQ/DAOC are neither. And many other examples, these are just the games I know best (I will discuss my definitions, but not the examples).
I haven't read through the whole thread, but from what I have read through I'm amazed people could go on about sandbox games and never once bring up Shadowbane.
I recall spending long hours farming mobs for materials and grinding up the levels so that I could be lethal in pvp. Our nation was made up of a small number of guilds; some with fortresses, of those some specialized in different crafting methods. There were no quests and mobs existed only to farm materials, gear, and xp. There was land ownership, resource development and ownership, guild vs guild warfare, and the closest things to factions that existed were North American guilds uniting to stop the spread of the Chinese guilds (this was, of course, a breeding ground for racism).
To me, that's what a sandbox was. The experience is entirely player driven. Something that actually forces you to behave as if you are a part of the world through a series of non-directed/packaged mediums. Some of my fondest memories in onling gaming were from hunting/stalking someone from an enemy guild trying to power-level a new recruit, or being asked by my guild to go at sabotage defences at an enemy castle a few hours before an assault. There's a reason its harder to solo in sandbox MMOs; it's because the players are the be all and end all of the game's experience.
When I play a theme park game, I find myself becoming very anti-social. Mostly because with the way the content gets delivered, the immersion is often ruined by a player base that simply wants to burn through the content for the end game. PVP systems are often rigid and restrictive (full PVP available only on a PVP server), battle grounds are sometimes the only place where pvp feels meaningful (and it's for the gear), and you may as well be on rails when it comes to meaningful content (although some side quest chains I have found to be very rewarding in WoW and SWTOR, and Earth & Beyond).
If I were to speak from a behavioural economic view, I'd say we are getting this collective sense of erosion in the mmo market because of theme park games not just because they are overly accessible, but because they've watered down the value people take away from these games. Rather than aiming to make it feel like you've had an impact on the world, these games water the reward to down to some gear that needs to be rebalanced every 2-4 months. Accessibility should never be a bad point for a game. In fact, the easier it is to pick up its more complicated features so that players are better able to recognize how to get the full value of the world if going to be how sandbox titles maintain themselves against theme park games, we simply need to be more aware of what needs to be recognized.
I like sandboxes , I never read quest stories , don't care about them because most are boring been there done that .
If Minecraft & ArcheAge had a baby I would play that game .
I'm surprised there's not much discussion of Wurm Online here.
After all it was co-created by the Minecraft guy.
To me it is the prototypical sandbox MMORPG, since Minecraft is more of an online toy than an RPG.
Each server is a distinct, fractally-generated 256 km sq elevation map with nothing but wilderness and wandering predators at launch (well, there's a water line and ore veins hidden underground as well).
You can dig to lower and raise terrain (terraform), which you can also pave in various ways. This is relevant because terrain slows movement in a natural way. Unlike Minecraft, however, terrain is smooth because the engine is surface-based rather than voxel-based. Trees sprout, age, die, and can all be chopped for lumber.
It's essentially a wilderness survival game where players start with no skills and next to no gear and have to craft their way to safety and civilization, which is greatly aided by banding together. There are server-unique uber-monsters such as dragons to locate and eventually slay, but no quests or dungeons only "achievements".
I am neither advocating nor dismissing the game but I will say I am impressed that the community has created such structures as 3 kilometer-long canals dug under mountains at the water line to establish naval trade routes connecting lakes to the ocean.
The game makes certain visual sacrifices (eg, animations are lacking and pavement and fencing are tile-based which leads to jagged patterns) but I think it serves as a testament to the potential of the sandbox concept. Very little in-your-face anti-immersive junk, just proudly decorated homesteads.
I'm surprised there's not much discussion of Wurm Online here.
After all it was co-created by the Minecraft guy.
When I played Wurm, someone stole my ore out of my fire. I was thrilled by the complexity of the crafting & harvesting. I spent my first week looking around and making food and water. I spent my second week trying to make nails, while everyone else spent their time preventing me. This game is like EvE where the vet community eagerly awaits the new player, and squeal like pigs when they ruin the new gamers experience with the game.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.
Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability.
Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this. End game may or may not be relevant. A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers. And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained. re OP.
I really don't agree, because I think even a Themepark can cultivate a thriving community or economy. I think it simply boils down to a sandbox offers you tools to manipulate the world and/or build on to the world. Themeparks usually don't offer such a thing.
Distopia is more correct.
Historically, sandboxes allow permanent impact on the world itself, whereas themeparks do not.
Bladestrom's statement that sandboxes are "about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy" is vacuous, and tacitly applies to any successful MMO.
______________________________________________
Before you disagree, take note that WoW cultivates and maintains a stable community and economy (excepting gear treadmillery) for many years. Furthermore Minecraft (the best known sandbox revival title) does little to cultivate the larger community, as all servers are independently run.
Vis-à-vis, Bladestrom's definition wrongly categorizes the best-known examples of both Themepark AND Sandbox gameplay.
I like Sanbox mmos, but i also like beeing given some directions, just a tad of handholding.
Im a player that likes doing every possible quest in one "town" before i go to the next one.
Problem with games like Skyrim for me is that im doing quests in one town, move a little outside that down, and immideiatly get 1 gazilion quests that has nothing to do with that town.
I would like a hybrid, how to do it well im not sure.
One thing i idnt like in Guild Wars 2 was i did one zone "my level" then it felt like a job farming quests in the other zones for the other races so i could get 100%. It felt really tedious, and alot of my friends felt the same, it was no fun and sucked the joy away from many. I was outleveld for the area, but still was forced to do it.
Comments
On my way to post an update that my longtime project had finally been brought back from obscurity I noticed this thred. It makes me glad to hear that many people actually are looking for a sandbox experience and I hope you'll check out Divergence as it is now!
www.Divergence-Online.com
Steam: 100_carson | Skype: carson.wilde
I think you have all skewed the definition of a Sandbox and a Theampark....
Sandbox is a world where all players can access all area's
Theampark is an area inside of a world that can only be accessed by a small group IE a dungeon in WoW is Theampark content...
I contend that WoW is a Sandbox with Theampark content because by and large the entire WoW world can be accessed by any character at any level with the exception being the dungeons...
Now lets look at SWTOR.... This is Theampark to a new terrible extent.... a player cannot go anywhere in the world he wants because he is stuck in every zone until he completes the quests to move on... this is Theampark!
The difference is the freedom of movement of a player in a true Sandbox there is no where a player can hide from another player determined to find him....
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
NO NO NO NO NO NO and NO!!
A sandbox is the absence of a script and artificial barriers, and lets you impact the gameworld. The freedom to go where you want is a sandbox element, but just one of many.
A pure sandbox is just a box of sand and Minecraft is probably the closest we can get to a pure sandbox game. Any less and you would basicly be writing code to play.
WoW has a plethora of artificial bariers, many that make sense in order to have a fun game and some that just get in the way of fun.. too many of the last one to claim that it is a sandbox.
When I played WoW I was sickened by the bind on pickup/equip mechanic.. Even if you could craft useful items that werent by far outshined by drops or rewards, they couldnt be traded, so it made crafting a requirement rather than a playstyle.
Combined with the lack of item degredation there was just no point to being a crafter... So to give players something to do in the game, cause there was very little sand in this box, they have them grind endlessly for better drops or rewards.
But to clarify the differences between Sandbox and Themepark I will list some examples.
Sandbox elements:
No "locked doors" (you cant enter because you are the wrong race or the wrong level or you are supposed to go in from the other end) it might have some restrictions... but you are able to get around that by getting a "key" from someone else.
Monsters shouldnt be tethered so you cant pull them away from their allies or so you can just step back to reset them if they were tougher than you thought.
Doing anything should have an effect in the world, from the small like denying a resource to everyone else because it is now in your pocket, or you just killed a monster so now noone else can kill that particular monster (I personally accept respawns as part of a game but it isnt sandbox), up to major changes in the world like ownership of regions,building a road, or leveling a mountain, and so on.
The abillity to decide who your alliess and enemies are and to betray and attack allies. And the ability for the community to deal with rampant backstabbing.
All in all; very few hard rules and very little control in the hands of the game developers of what goes on.. but with emergent gameplay and rules that come from the player community.
Themepark elements:
Scripted progression. First you are here and you do this thing and then you get to go there and do some other thing. Gotta do all these things and go these places before you get to do "endgame".
You have to use your skills this way. Because we planned it that way and we wouldnt know what to do if we allowed you to charm that monster, or let casters wear plate armor.
No you cannot trade that item as it would be the beginning of a free economy that we wouldnt have control over.
No you cannot have a lasting effect on the gameworld, because that doesnt jive with what we planned for the next expantions.
Oh you want to go on that ride again? Sorry for health and safety reasons you have to wait a week.
That guy is ticking you off, well you could try and submit a harrassment ticket and we will look at it in a week. Oh, you want do something about it now?.. well tough shit.. he is your ally and you cannot. Oh, you dont want to be his ally... well you could transfer to another server.
Invisible walls that block you off from going where you please.
Tethered mobs that, while protecting the game from exploits (in a sandbox, many "exploits" would be completly legit), take alot of gameplay away from the game.
Basicly themeparks are full of rules and restrictions that allow the developers to maintain control of the game and how it is played. They have planned for almost every moment of your game experience, except for some of the player interaction.
In my view Themeparks are single player games that happen to have other people in them. And a sandbox is a world that happens to be a game.
Can't we make it simple.
Theme park like a park , you ride and ride again until you tired of game.
Thought in real life , you have to wait for your turn (lol life's a sandbox game) .
In Theme park game , you don't have to wait for your turn.
You don't to worry about other player take away your turn.
You play it until you get sick of it and move to next game.
Sandbox mean a sand box , it limit of sand so if someone take away you sand , you can't play with it.
So it mean any action of player will effect to the sand box.
Not like theme park where everything ready made and you only have to ride it.
In Sand box main story caused by player
For example.
You need sand to build your dream castle.
Then someone also need sand to build his sand castle.
So it will end up a fight between players to hold his hand on the sand (rescources).
lol , it your story when you fight with other , because game don't build it in first place.
And i agree with your last line.
But if i have to say who will win in Sandbox VS ThemePark,
I think theme park win the game of life.
To created nice and large sandbox you will need extreme large fund.
The more large and complex of virtual world , the harder to run it smooth.
So we can't hope anyone will take a risk to created a big game like that.
Unless we have a billionaire want to make a master piece art who don't care about money earning from his work.
lol. Tell me your true thought ,
Do you want to play a true sandbox game with out date 90s 2D dots art
or a beauty theme game with highest 3D graphic ?
You have to know that sandbox can't become a beauty woman,
i doubt any beauty sandbox will come out in 10 more years.
I doubt.
I think this best describes sandboxs and themepaks in the most encompassing way possible (atleast from what I have seen so far).
You are getting to focused in the rules of coding and less focused on what makes a sandbox and what makes a themepark.
Very simple.
Sandbox is about how restrictive the game is in the choices you can make and how much effect on the world. Themepark is about where it can take you whether you choose to or not you only push forward you can't push in your own direction.
There are many parts to a game, and breaking them down will help tell you if it's a sandbox or themepark. Both have their pros and cons. They will also have somethings in common.
-MrDDT
Social interaction (A) and player interaction with enviroment (B)
NEW THEMEPARK
Old RPG
These two games are Asheron's Call ( Released on November 2, 1999 ) & World of Warcraft (released on November 23, 2004 ).
AC vs WOW
ok, making it simple;
-Sandbox games: games with players who want to make content for themselves, can think for themselves and want to do what they think is fun;
-themepark games: games where the devs decide what is fun for the player.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The restrictions come from the developers.. not so much because they add stuff. Much more because they are afraid their added stuff will be modified or destroyed from the players, hence they lock it, make the content static, or just used in one way. Like riding the rollercoaster, but not rebuild or modify it.
It is really much more about the Tools or the lack of.. and not so much about Content.
You could have a world filled with Towns and NPCs and millions of Quests and could be a perfectly sandbox as long as you have the Tools and everything applies to it.
Example. NPC with Quest. You kill NPC, quest is gone. Perfectly sandbox style. At the same time you could add another NPC with another Quest. Exaxtly the same with Towns.. as long as you can afterwards modify or even destroy it, it is completely sandbox style. Ok, better would be most probably solve quest partially. Quest is closed for some time. Solve quest definite. Quest is gone forever.
Example:
Story: There is a place somewhere with a rat problem. So the herald of that place handles out a Quest to kill 10 rats, as long as there are rats around. If the rats are gone, the Quest is closed. But over time rats may immigrate from other places, and the problem will arise again. And the Quest is again available. But if someone comes up with a clever idea to prevent rat immigration, the problem is solved forever. (Quest is destroyed)
And to go on:
And a good sandbox game should have content in the beginning. It should be able to played almost like a themepark. With the difference that the world may change over time. (old content disappears and new player and developer created content appears)
There is a lot of potential in it, which is more or less not used at all.
- We have either empty worlds, where the player have to create content first. (like Minecraft, Wurms, or almost any so called pure sandbox)
- Or games with static content but sandbox tools to build up. You cannot modify or destroy the old developer content, but you can add new content. Examples like UO, SWG or ArcheAge. So called Hybrids.
But would it be not more fun, if you could modify the developer content, too? (Not destroying within a minute, but more like slowly evolving and developing over time. So insta destruction is always dangerous)
Towns will grow or shrink, will look completely different over time. New ones will appear, and old ones may disappear.
No, it's not. A theme park has tons of invisible walls that "force" you to travel somewhere, much like the ropes you see near a ride where people are guided in an organized fashion toward the attraction. Themeparks also restrict your content by locking it out until you visit a specific "attraction," whereas in a sandbox you can enter content whenever you wish.
But probably the biggest difference between themepark and sandbox is the content. In a themepark, developers have to create content faster than the playerbase consumes in order to be successful. This usually leads to repetative expansions that are basically the same rehashed garbage they put out last expansion with a new skin... <cough cough> WoW <cough cough>. In a sandbox, players create their own content and gives developers ample time to work on more quality content to consume.
I'm personally more into themeparks. Though I'll try to be objective.
Why? I'm more into crisp mechanics and combat. Most themeparks deliver on this far more then sandboxes do. I also really appreciate lore, story and characters. Some scripted things can be super awesome too if done right (though, scripting can get stale very fast). Themeparks could also learn a lot from sandboxes when it comes to making your character more unique, allowing more player freedom, non-scripted things, etc.
Now, I do love the idea of sandboxes. Where it's more up to the player to run the economy and make their own stories. One of the downsides to sandboxes though, in my opinion, is they only appeal to people that have a good imagination. What happens when someone that doesn't have a great imagination tries to play a sandbox? they are left bored, confused and probably frustrated too. I personally haven't found a sandbox MMO that appeals to me mechanically or artistically yet (since that is most important to me) and I have other, more preferred ways of expressing my imagination.
I do believe one day a developer is going to get the perfect blend. Where the themeparker is going to be satisfied with the game mechanics and story elements -- but there will also be tools for players to carve their own path in a massive, non-linear, open ended and player run universe. Some would argue that the two ideas are exclusive to each other and don't work together but I kinda disagree. Life is proof that it can work. There are some games that are starting to toy with this now, but only time will tell I guess.
I like sandboxes , I never read quest stories , don't care about them because most are boring been there done that .
If Minecraft & ArcheAge had a baby I would play that game .
here is the problem:
griefers will kill the quest npc, just for fun, and the content will be gone
if you have a very small, and tight community, then it might Work, but not for bigger games
look at EVE,,that how far you can go with a sandbox game
even CCP are trying to go for other players/platforms now,,would they do that, if EVE was swimming in Money?
No wonder there are always so many discussions comming from these terms. Reading through this everyone seem to have a different definition, so who not another one.
First by whatever definition You use, there are many games which are neither Sandbox nor Themepark. Because a game is not Sandbox doesn't necessary make it Themepark. These are my defintions.
Sandbox:
A world with little limitations to what a player can do, where a player can go. This world only contains the rules that allow the world to exist and the players to exist in it, while allowing maximum possible freedom. These games typically offer high degree of PvP freedom, but not limited to PvP games, it is just easier to make sandbox with PvP mechanics. Often Sandbox offers players to influence the world physically and financially, and has a minimum of status-quo mechanics. Non-instanced is not an absolute necessity but it falls naturally for a Sandbox.
Themepark:
A world with a high degree of designed adventure, with alot of limitations to what a player can do. This world is build up of "rides" to try that a game designer has pre-build and has a high degree of control over. This is Your typical quest hubber, story driven, often instanced and raiding are mostly very designed in nature. Also to further control the game, it is also often ingame currency with gear NPC based. The defintion can be taken pretty directly out of the name, You enter a park (game world) where You can go and try out the various designed Rides (quests, stories, events, raids, instanced pvp).
So by this definition I would give a few examples. EVE is high Sandbox, WoW(as of today)/Gw2 are themepark, AC/EQ/DAOC are neither. And many other examples, these are just the games I know best (I will discuss my definitions, but not the examples).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Consolidation :-)
Do the same for non-consentual PvP threads and you'll have my respect forever.
I haven't read through the whole thread, but from what I have read through I'm amazed people could go on about sandbox games and never once bring up Shadowbane.
I recall spending long hours farming mobs for materials and grinding up the levels so that I could be lethal in pvp. Our nation was made up of a small number of guilds; some with fortresses, of those some specialized in different crafting methods. There were no quests and mobs existed only to farm materials, gear, and xp. There was land ownership, resource development and ownership, guild vs guild warfare, and the closest things to factions that existed were North American guilds uniting to stop the spread of the Chinese guilds (this was, of course, a breeding ground for racism).
To me, that's what a sandbox was. The experience is entirely player driven. Something that actually forces you to behave as if you are a part of the world through a series of non-directed/packaged mediums. Some of my fondest memories in onling gaming were from hunting/stalking someone from an enemy guild trying to power-level a new recruit, or being asked by my guild to go at sabotage defences at an enemy castle a few hours before an assault. There's a reason its harder to solo in sandbox MMOs; it's because the players are the be all and end all of the game's experience.
When I play a theme park game, I find myself becoming very anti-social. Mostly because with the way the content gets delivered, the immersion is often ruined by a player base that simply wants to burn through the content for the end game. PVP systems are often rigid and restrictive (full PVP available only on a PVP server), battle grounds are sometimes the only place where pvp feels meaningful (and it's for the gear), and you may as well be on rails when it comes to meaningful content (although some side quest chains I have found to be very rewarding in WoW and SWTOR, and Earth & Beyond).
If I were to speak from a behavioural economic view, I'd say we are getting this collective sense of erosion in the mmo market because of theme park games not just because they are overly accessible, but because they've watered down the value people take away from these games. Rather than aiming to make it feel like you've had an impact on the world, these games water the reward to down to some gear that needs to be rebalanced every 2-4 months. Accessibility should never be a bad point for a game. In fact, the easier it is to pick up its more complicated features so that players are better able to recognize how to get the full value of the world if going to be how sandbox titles maintain themselves against theme park games, we simply need to be more aware of what needs to be recognized.
I'm surprised there's not much discussion of Wurm Online here.
After all it was co-created by the Minecraft guy.
To me it is the prototypical sandbox MMORPG, since Minecraft is more of an online toy than an RPG.
Each server is a distinct, fractally-generated 256 km sq elevation map with nothing but wilderness and wandering predators at launch (well, there's a water line and ore veins hidden underground as well).
You can dig to lower and raise terrain (terraform), which you can also pave in various ways. This is relevant because terrain slows movement in a natural way. Unlike Minecraft, however, terrain is smooth because the engine is surface-based rather than voxel-based. Trees sprout, age, die, and can all be chopped for lumber.
It's essentially a wilderness survival game where players start with no skills and next to no gear and have to craft their way to safety and civilization, which is greatly aided by banding together. There are server-unique uber-monsters such as dragons to locate and eventually slay, but no quests or dungeons only "achievements".
I am neither advocating nor dismissing the game but I will say I am impressed that the community has created such structures as 3 kilometer-long canals dug under mountains at the water line to establish naval trade routes connecting lakes to the ocean.
The game makes certain visual sacrifices (eg, animations are lacking and pavement and fencing are tile-based which leads to jagged patterns) but I think it serves as a testament to the potential of the sandbox concept. Very little in-your-face anti-immersive junk, just proudly decorated homesteads.
When I played Wurm, someone stole my ore out of my fire. I was thrilled by the complexity of the crafting & harvesting. I spent my first week looking around and making food and water. I spent my second week trying to make nails, while everyone else spent their time preventing me. This game is like EvE where the vet community eagerly awaits the new player, and squeal like pigs when they ruin the new gamers experience with the game.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Distopia is more correct.
Historically, sandboxes allow permanent impact on the world itself, whereas themeparks do not.
Bladestrom's statement that sandboxes are "about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy" is vacuous, and tacitly applies to any successful MMO.
______________________________________________
Before you disagree, take note that WoW cultivates and maintains a stable community and economy (excepting gear treadmillery) for many years. Furthermore Minecraft (the best known sandbox revival title) does little to cultivate the larger community, as all servers are independently run.
Vis-à-vis, Bladestrom's definition wrongly categorizes the best-known examples of both Themepark AND Sandbox gameplay.
(hilighted for difficult trolling)
(and I am aware that Minecraft is not an MMO
)
I like Sanbox mmos, but i also like beeing given some directions, just a tad of handholding.
Im a player that likes doing every possible quest in one "town" before i go to the next one.
Problem with games like Skyrim for me is that im doing quests in one town, move a little outside that down, and immideiatly get 1 gazilion quests that has nothing to do with that town.
I would like a hybrid, how to do it well im not sure.
One thing i idnt like in Guild Wars 2 was i did one zone "my level" then it felt like a job farming quests in the other zones for the other races so i could get 100%. It felt really tedious, and alot of my friends felt the same, it was no fun and sucked the joy away from many. I was outleveld for the area, but still was forced to do it.