Meh. This whole 'my favorite themepark MMO has all the features that sandbox MMO's have' is kind of a silly argument.
Nice argument for baiting though
Although it also maybe shows a lack of experience/knowledge of MMO's and gameplay in them, or maybe a refusal to acknowledge different types of MMO's and gameplay styles.
Because looking at this thread and others like it, all the arguments that pointed towards the differences have been mentioned. If people still can't acknowledge the differences between games like UO, SWG and EVE and games like WoW or Rift, then it's obviously because people don't want to see the differences, or lack experience with all those MMO's.
I agree. I played UO for about 9 years, and WoW for 4 years. The differences are tremendous. In UO gamers had thousands of possible skill combinations/templates (maybe tens of thousands). Players could choose to do nearly anything they wanted. In the early years you could even take someone's head.
The problem with themeparks is they are primarily driven by leveling. Sandboxes were/are driven by player motivation (e.g. money, power, domination, and so on).
Obviously, there are many other problems and differences between the gaming models such as the lack or freedom of expression and so on.
I think EQ is a sandbox, but is much more restricted in terms of what you can do in game. The only way to progress is through combat professions unless you are really good at wheeling and dealing with other players. Generally every class is based on combat. The structure of the world and the economy are sandbox like though. There are a very small amount of optional quests that don't really do much for you in most cases. It's mostly a game of exploration and learning to get along with other people in the community. Ultima Online was closer to a virtual world because you could choose to do many different things that had nothing to do with combat.
What a long topic, going back for years and still active... I skipped the middle BTW... But why argue back and forth about sandbox vs themepark? Why not instead create a list of features of games and let's see who likes/dislikes which particular detail and why? I liked EVE. I also liked WOW. I also liked Rift. I'm about to start playing Archeage. I did not like LOTRO or STO. When Maplestory2 comes to the west I'm going to check it out. I enjoyed several MUDs back in the day (legendMud). SecondLife is astounding but I don't want to code any more.
I like story. I think many of us do. But I don't like when you don't even have to read anything to do the quests. You can click and follow an arrow, and click and push some buttons, and follow an arrow. There needs to be thought involved. Not just spell out some simple meaningless pointless nothing. Give us a puzzle to figure out. I mean shit might as well be a robot. I like it when there is nothing on the screen except the world you see. We don't have names floating above our heads. When we need to find someone, we have to ask around and go looking. Same thing with cities and other places. Buy a map, or just wander, or talk to people, or look for signs. It is interaction and exploration. When we talk to someone, we either need to write it down, or remember, or we need to go back and talk to them again. Having some automatic quest log takes away that. I like interacting with other people in game. And in character I might add. I'm here for an immersive interactive experience. When everyone in the game just goes running everywhere and never stops and says "HI" there is alot of loss in the experience. And I don't mean making all conversation through a global chat box. I mean localized. You need to be in hearing range. I like being able to wear any gear and train any skill, or spell, change the configuration of my ship, or starship, or airship, though with some reasonable reasons as to how and why and sensible limitations. Also only having one shard or server or world or instance... where everyone who plays the game plays together. And having changes that are permanent. Being able to change the environment. Having a complex resource exploitation, crafting, researching, building, trading economy. And player controlled and fought over territory. Yes I want devs to come up with great story arcs and quests. And if somehow the players of the game through the nature of their choices causes it to go a different direction than the devs intended... great, go with it. You got a protaganist/antagonist relationship to build on there. And if someone manages to figure out how to get the big bad demon out of the cave and follow them to the city where it kills everyone... f*ing AWESOME! The story just got updated! Or if the player base amasses an unprecedented show of force to take out he all powerful NPC organization, and actually manages it... it is kind of disappointing if the next day it's just back to the way it was. I know that is going to throw a great big wrench into your game as you have to figure out how to respond to that one, but come one... enjoy the challenge. And this idea of joining any quest at any time from anywhere and instantly teleporting with no in game mechanic or reason is crap. Oh and swimming in plate armor? Nope. I think you would sink, let's disrobe some first. And where did my horse just disappear to? Oh hear it is in my back pocket. No... if you leave something big somewhere, you got to go back and get it. If you get down, walk it by the reins. If you got more than one ship you want to get to different ports? Hire transport for yourself in between your runs, from either another player, or the NPC transit. And yes, great big scale battles sometimes. Naval armadas, and fields full of soldiers. Of course this is not going to happen all the time. Consequences. Yeah sorry but if you get killed you are going to lose your stuff. And hell why not your scalp or hear or ear or something as a trophy, or a fetish? I started mucking about with computers when the commodore 64 and apple 2 came out. For the most part things seem to have changed from needing to think and having consequences to just blazing through and things always working out. There is still much variety in the world of games, but it seems harder to find the good stuff.
You want to call it a hybird? Did I mention some things that maybe were outside of the scope of things that people were debating too?
In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here .
Fuck the idea of this thread. Restricting discussion about fundamental game concepts to a single thread because there's too much discussion about it elsewhere? That makes so much sense--if you're one of the hundred theme park MMO developers and don't want anyone to know that MMO gamers used to have a choice. #conspiracy
Fuck the idea of this thread. Restricting discussion about fundamental game concepts to a single thread because there's too much discussion about it elsewhere? That makes so much sense--if you're one of the hundred theme park MMO developers and don't want anyone to know that MMO gamers used to have a choice. #conspiracy
ya they have a choice of 1-3 games. Just like they are now...
Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.
Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability.
Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this. End game may or may not be relevant. A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers. And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained. re OP.
I really don't agree, because I think even a Themepark can cultivate a thriving community or economy. I think it simply boils down to a sandbox offers you tools to manipulate the world and/or build on to the world. Themeparks usually don't offer such a thing.
In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here .
For me the different between Theme park and sanbox mmo are the end game focus:
++ Theme park: end game is achieved level cap, raid, dungeon, pvp to get gear, to be big, bad , shinny guys and afk in town to show off. There could be a housing system , a castle /siege system,... However on personal level it's still achieve the highest level with highest gear and afk in town
++ Sandbox : end game isn't defined by highest level or strongest gear due to there are many things to achieve more than just afk in town. Your end game could be: the best fishers in game, the best farmmer in game, the best trader, the richest person in server. You could go out and fishing for entire week to find a rarest fish in game. You could go out there to mining 2000 nodes, chopping 3000 tree and then build the biggest the mod badass castle in ever exist. Basically you have more than 1 end game goal.
I don't think you can have both. Either build the game where just about everything in it can be crafted or created by players form the ground up or make it a theme park. Its two different styles of play.
Its like Crafting, many MMOs back in the day though it was a stupid thing, now they tack it on like a feature but it's not. To make crafting be anything but a side thing you do to kill time or a prerequisite to get your gear boosted you have to make crafting like THE GAME with an adventure world built on top of it. All your gear is crafted, all the building are "crafted" and maintained. The entire caste you are in is actually built and maintained through crafters. The quests are essentially "jobs" posted by other players who run the city and need other people with the time to do it just like that same leader isn't maintaining the castle walls all day with his masonry skill.
There is a goblin cave nearby that is spewing goblin attacks on my city and the only way to stop it is enough players bring back the WAGH banner from the end boss there and burn it in the chapel. "Assign Open Quest tot he Quest board" pay 1,000 gold and XYZ experience points AND.OR maybe a special item my crafters have been making to upon completion .
I don't think you can have both. Either build the game where just about everything in it can be crafted or created by players form the ground up or make it a theme park. Its two different styles of play.
Its like Crafting, many MMOs back in the day though it was a stupid thing, now they tack it on like a feature but it's not. To make crafting be anything but a side thing you do to kill time or a prerequisite to get your gear boosted you have to make crafting like THE GAME with an adventure world built on top of it. All your gear is crafted, all the building are "crafted" and maintained. The entire caste you are in is actually built and maintained through crafters. The quests are essentially "jobs" posted by other players who run the city and need other people with the time to do it just like that same leader isn't maintaining the castle walls all day with his masonry skill.
There is a goblin cave nearby that is spewing goblin attacks on my city and the only way to stop it is enough players bring back the WAGH banner from the end boss there and burn it in the chapel. "Assign Open Quest tot he Quest board" pay 1,000 gold and XYZ experience points AND.OR maybe a special item my crafters have been making to upon completion .
That's the dream game system
sounds like the game for me.
the 'tack on crafting that has zero real point or affect with the rest of the game so we can say we have crafting' I find deeply insulting.
like EQ2...at least around 2008 days
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Fuck the idea of this thread. Restricting discussion about fundamental game concepts to a single thread because there's too much discussion about it elsewhere? That makes so much sense--if you're one of the hundred theme park MMO developers and don't want anyone to know that MMO gamers used to have a choice. #conspiracy
Complaining that there aren't multiple threads on this subject, when you haven't even said enough on the subject to justify one thread continuing. #irony
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Fuck the idea of this thread. Restricting discussion about fundamental game concepts to a single thread because there's too much discussion about it elsewhere? That makes so much sense--if you're one of the hundred theme park MMO developers and don't want anyone to know that MMO gamers used to have a choice. #conspiracy
Complaining that there aren't multiple threads on this subject, when you haven't even said enough on the subject to justify one thread continuing. #irony
I've said plenty on the subject elsewhere, as have many others. It's bullshit to try and limit discussion about the subject to a single thread when almost every thread on these boards devolves into a sandbox vs. themepark thread. Also, nice fucking Vonnegut quote there in your sig. What skill level in pretension do you need to equip that?
I've said plenty on the subject elsewhere, as have many others. It's bullshit to try and limit discussion about the subject to a single thread when almost every thread on these boards devolves into a sandbox vs. themepark thread. Also, nice fucking Vonnegut quote there in your sig. What skill level in pretension do you need to equip that?
Continuing to be ironic won't dismiss my point. (In fact it strengthens it.)
It is a nice quote. On what basis, or for what purpose would you call it pretentious? I can think of three possibilities:
You've embraced the general culture of knowledge-rejection that much of society has, where intellectual pursuits are criticized or belittled.
You're being hilariously ironic, in a self-aware way by acting exactly as the Vonnegut quote predicts: I criticized your idea, you took it as personal insult, then you criticized my idea regardless of its truth.
You're being hilariously ironic, but not aware of it. (This seems more likely, but doesn't diminish the hilarity of it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've said plenty on the subject elsewhere, as have many others. It's bullshit to try and limit discussion about the subject to a single thread when almost every thread on these boards devolves into a sandbox vs. themepark thread. Also, nice fucking Vonnegut quote there in your sig. What skill level in pretension do you need to equip that?
Continuing to be ironic won't dismiss my point. (In fact it strengthens it.)
It is a nice quote. On what basis, or for what purpose would you call it pretentious? I can think of three possibilities:
You've embraced the general culture of knowledge-rejection that much of society has, where intellectual pursuits are criticized or belittled.
You're being hilariously ironic, in a self-aware way by acting exactly as the Vonnegut quote predicts: I criticized your idea, you took it as personal insult, then you criticized my idea regardless of its truth.
You're being hilariously ironic, but not aware of it. (This seems more likely, but doesn't diminish the hilarity of it.)
When stating the obvious you're not so bad. But that's simply stating the obvious. "People like playing games that are fun." is generally a statement that doesn't need to be said.
As it relates to this. The complaint seems to be that there is more to discuss than simply "sandbox vs themepark" and that drawing any discussion about either of the subjects into a single thread where it pulls the focus away from one of them to turn it into an argument about the superiority of the other, kills the potential to make any more meaningful discussions on the topics at hand.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I have simple solution for this: Play sandbox multiplayer game for example terraria now or planet centauri at next month with your friends and play your themepark mmo when you feel like it
In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here .
You can put themepark questing inside a sandbox MMO. You can even put template characterbuilds (classes) in skill based sandbox MMO's. As long as it is still optional, it remains a sandbox MMO. Anarchy Online and Fallen Earth (on release) did this. It helps casual players getting used to a more complex MMO.
Just my 2cts about why I think themepark vs sandbox doesnt even have to be an issue.
I believe the main different of this 2 was the repetitive value.
Theme park = max probably 5 option, 5 ending, Player follow dev story
Sandbox = over 9000 different stories, especially when developer make a random generated quest, there is many types of random generated quest. see skyrim radiant quest. Player create their own story
I haven't seen a good sandbox vs themepark argument for a long time... at least more and more people are accepting that there are some good sandbox games, it took awhile for that.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Comments
I agree. I played UO for about 9 years, and WoW for 4 years. The differences are tremendous. In UO gamers had thousands of possible skill combinations/templates (maybe tens of thousands). Players could choose to do nearly anything they wanted. In the early years you could even take someone's head.
The problem with themeparks is they are primarily driven by leveling. Sandboxes were/are driven by player motivation (e.g. money, power, domination, and so on).
Obviously, there are many other problems and differences between the gaming models such as the lack or freedom of expression and so on.
I liked EVE. I also liked WOW. I also liked Rift. I'm about to start playing Archeage. I did not like LOTRO or STO. When Maplestory2 comes to the west I'm going to check it out. I enjoyed several MUDs back in the day (legendMud). SecondLife is astounding but I don't want to code any more.
I like story. I think many of us do. But I don't like when you don't even have to read anything to do the quests. You can click and follow an arrow, and click and push some buttons, and follow an arrow. There needs to be thought involved. Not just spell out some simple meaningless pointless nothing. Give us a puzzle to figure out. I mean shit might as well be a robot. I like it when there is nothing on the screen except the world you see. We don't have names floating above our heads. When we need to find someone, we have to ask around and go looking. Same thing with cities and other places. Buy a map, or just wander, or talk to people, or look for signs. It is interaction and exploration. When we talk to someone, we either need to write it down, or remember, or we need to go back and talk to them again. Having some automatic quest log takes away that. I like interacting with other people in game. And in character I might add. I'm here for an immersive interactive experience. When everyone in the game just goes running everywhere and never stops and says "HI" there is alot of loss in the experience. And I don't mean making all conversation through a global chat box. I mean localized. You need to be in hearing range. I like being able to wear any gear and train any skill, or spell, change the configuration of my ship, or starship, or airship, though with some reasonable reasons as to how and why and sensible limitations. Also only having one shard or server or world or instance... where everyone who plays the game plays together. And having changes that are permanent. Being able to change the environment. Having a complex resource exploitation, crafting, researching, building, trading economy. And player controlled and fought over territory. Yes I want devs to come up with great story arcs and quests. And if somehow the players of the game through the nature of their choices causes it to go a different direction than the devs intended... great, go with it. You got a protaganist/antagonist relationship to build on there. And if someone manages to figure out how to get the big bad demon out of the cave and follow them to the city where it kills everyone... f*ing AWESOME! The story just got updated! Or if the player base amasses an unprecedented show of force to take out he all powerful NPC organization, and actually manages it... it is kind of disappointing if the next day it's just back to the way it was. I know that is going to throw a great big wrench into your game as you have to figure out how to respond to that one, but come one... enjoy the challenge. And this idea of joining any quest at any time from anywhere and instantly teleporting with no in game mechanic or reason is crap. Oh and swimming in plate armor? Nope. I think you would sink, let's disrobe some first. And where did my horse just disappear to? Oh hear it is in my back pocket. No... if you leave something big somewhere, you got to go back and get it. If you get down, walk it by the reins. If you got more than one ship you want to get to different ports? Hire transport for yourself in between your runs, from either another player, or the NPC transit. And yes, great big scale battles sometimes. Naval armadas, and fields full of soldiers. Of course this is not going to happen all the time. Consequences. Yeah sorry but if you get killed you are going to lose your stuff. And hell why not your scalp or hear or ear or something as a trophy, or a fetish? I started mucking about with computers when the commodore 64 and apple 2 came out. For the most part things seem to have changed from needing to think and having consequences to just blazing through and things always working out. There is still much variety in the world of games, but it seems harder to find the good stuff.
You want to call it a hybird? Did I mention some things that maybe were outside of the scope of things that people were debating too?
Ok tear me up now.
ya they have a choice of 1-3 games. Just like they are now...
++ Theme park: end game is achieved level cap, raid, dungeon, pvp to get gear, to be big, bad , shinny guys and afk in town to show off. There could be a housing system , a castle /siege system,... However on personal level it's still achieve the highest level with highest gear and afk in town
++ Sandbox : end game isn't defined by highest level or strongest gear due to there are many things to achieve more than just afk in town. Your end game could be: the best fishers in game, the best farmmer in game, the best trader, the richest person in server. You could go out and fishing for entire week to find a rarest fish in game. You could go out there to mining 2000 nodes, chopping 3000 tree and then build the biggest the mod badass castle in ever exist. Basically you have more than 1 end game goal.
I don't think you can have both. Either build the game where just about everything in it can be crafted or created by players form the ground up or make it a theme park. Its two different styles of play.
Its like Crafting, many MMOs back in the day though it was a stupid thing, now they tack it on like a feature but it's not. To make crafting be anything but a side thing you do to kill time or a prerequisite to get your gear boosted you have to make crafting like THE GAME with an adventure world built on top of it. All your gear is crafted, all the building are "crafted" and maintained. The entire caste you are in is actually built and maintained through crafters. The quests are essentially "jobs" posted by other players who run the city and need other people with the time to do it just like that same leader isn't maintaining the castle walls all day with his masonry skill.
There is a goblin cave nearby that is spewing goblin attacks on my city and the only way to stop it is enough players bring back the WAGH banner from the end boss there and burn it in the chapel. "Assign Open Quest tot he Quest board" pay 1,000 gold and XYZ experience points AND.OR maybe a special item my crafters have been making to upon completion .
That's the dream game system
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
the 'tack on crafting that has zero real point or affect with the rest of the game so we can say we have crafting' I find deeply insulting.
like EQ2...at least around 2008 days
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is a nice quote. On what basis, or for what purpose would you call it pretentious? I can think of three possibilities:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When stating the obvious you're not so bad. But that's simply stating the obvious. "People like playing games that are fun." is generally a statement that doesn't need to be said.
As it relates to this. The complaint seems to be that there is more to discuss than simply "sandbox vs themepark" and that drawing any discussion about either of the subjects into a single thread where it pulls the focus away from one of them to turn it into an argument about the superiority of the other, kills the potential to make any more meaningful discussions on the topics at hand.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Its open to missuse by hackers, bots etc- take archeage for example.
Themepark is easy to set up and play, but it lacks endgame content most of the times.
Its more casual and less depth oriented.
@DLangley ;
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Anarchy Online and Fallen Earth (on release) did this. It helps casual players getting used to a more complex MMO.
Just my 2cts about why I think themepark vs sandbox doesnt even have to be an issue.
Theme park = max probably 5 option, 5 ending, Player follow dev story
Sandbox = over 9000 different stories, especially when developer make a random generated quest, there is many types of random generated quest. see skyrim radiant quest. Player create their own story
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA