As a brand new player to EVE, I have had basically zero contact with other players, save for one extremely sudden death when I approached a stargate on my one foray into <0.5 sec space. These missions that are offered to me are basically the whole game to me so far. I look forward to finding the "real" game, to play with people, but I honestly have no idea what to expect or how to get involved. If the gap is as large as it seems, will it really take six months to a year to reach the point where I can actually participate beyond mining endless amounts of veldspar? And why is that a good thing?
What I did for a while was to go ratting in low sec.. just dead end 0.4 and 0.3 not much going on.. had a minor chance of some faction loot to make money off and once in a while someone else showed up and would might have a little fight if we both felt like or if only one of us felt like it and scrambled the other..
It was usually pretty cordial and often we had some great post combat discussions about fittings and combat and what we hoped to do in EVE.. I never joined a corp with any of them since I was busy doing my own thing in high sec at the time.. But it was offered.. and I might have accepted if I wasnt set on trading on that character.
Trouble with being a new player is less about skill points and more about trust.. The older your character is (especially if you have many skill points) the more time you have invested in that character and you would be less likely to ruin the reputaion of that character.
Im not saying that skillpoints dont matter at all.. Corps usually like you to have some flexibility so you can fit into their various fleet types.. And ofcourse we cant completly ignore that it has an effect on how well you can fly your ship..
Also there are some old hands in the newbie npc corps.. they can be very helpful if your questions arent drowned out by all the RL crap they keep yammering on about :P
There is a lot of stuff to wrap your head around in eve before you can say you know enough to not be a noob with any sort of certainty.. read read read the forums and chats and try to learn as much as you can about how this and that works, so you wont sound like a gibbering idiot when you talk to people about joining there corp..
If you are eloquent and you have a plan for yourself and know a little about eve.. you can talk your way in to almost any corp..
Ofcourse some corps would like you to get your basic training elsewhere but I hope you didnt expect a management position in a 1000 player alliance with 6 months experience
thank you WWB4W. This my friends is called INTERACTION. Let's see here...he would travel to a deadend .4 or .3 system and rat some. Then he might run into another player and they would fight a bit and here comes the good part...THEY would DISCUSS fittings, loadouts, etc.
I keep telling new fish this over and over. If you are soloing or generally lonely in EvE...it's YOUR fault. FIND something to do. See those little pictures in local? They are other human players there. Make note of who is in your system...you will be glad you learned this early in your career.
Next, see what they do. Offer to help them rat or mine or haul or whatever. Don't beg. If they say no..no worries. This is where adults have advantages over children in this game. I deal with adults daily. I'm used to it. If I need something, I approach people like an adult...try it out.
Next..get on a VOIP service and bingo!! you have a new EvE friend. Now maybe when you go into that dread Ammake or some other low sec system...you have someone that might watch out for you.
For God's sake...whatever you do...don't stay in the NPC Corp forever...these people are hi sec dwellers and have no real interest in moving on. Some of them are so jaded and will tell you never trust anyone, never do any favors, nothing. Sadly, some of this is true...but if you are a brand new person...what have you to lose?
Time? A frigate? A little bit of isk? Really...this is why you will never accept a fleet invite? True scamming/skulldruggery isn't until much later in the game. If you are in a null sec holding corp of a large alliance...then that's a different story. If you are in the NPC corp and running missions..you are at the bottom of the barrel. Some people get so used to eating shit, they should name all of their marauders "Catfish."
Get out of the NPC corp and take a chance. All the fruit is at the end of the damn tree limb...stretch out and get it.
Edit:spelling
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Skill points are only going to benefit PVE players. To help them get to the higher levels of PVE content faster. This is what the majority of EVE players already do, and the game has seen change after change to help them do it faster.
You are just talking about buffing a side of the game that has seen buff after buff. Players come in, and in no time are in a glorious ship they love, only to lose it to a newer player, in a lesser ship, that really understood how to pilot a ship. It happens all the time in EVE.
Once you leave high sec, and you are confronted by another group of real live people, just like you, it is only the skill at using the skill points you have that will help you.
Your Idea not only doesn’t help this, in many ways hurts it, by encouraging players into situations they don’t have the skill to deal with.
That is, quite possibly, the biggest crock of BS in this entire thread. Only one thing needs to be said to discount all of what you just posted.
Player skill progresses MUCH faster than character skills. You could double the rate of skillpoint gain from day one and this would still be true.
Skill point's only benefit you in PVE. Go to any null sec area and there a plenty of players with loads of sp that never PVP because they don't know how.
There are also plenty with less than a year’s worth, with multiple toons, and leading killboards.
Are they impatient yes, but because they took the time to learn the game, they play year after year, and even though they may not always win, they rarely lose.
I may be full of shit, but you're depriving players of that opportunity.
I've posted on this topic many times before. My idea is consistent with the CCP philosophy in general. CCP currently allows ISK purchase of both playing time as well as veteran characters. CCP already endorses and profits off of both of those features.
Therefore, the natural way to do this is allow the purchase of SP with ISK. The way I would propose pricing it would be based on how far away you are from the player with the most skill points. For instance, they would be relatively cheap as a noob and would get more and more expensive as you got more SP. Up to infinity as you reach the level of the longest vet in the game.
I absolutely 100% refuse to play a game that doesn't allow you to EVER catch up to veterans. Note that I am an ex-veteran myself but stopped playing years ago. I would possibly return again as I am now MMOless, except for that artificial game mechanic that gives veterans a permanent advantage no matter how much you are willing to grind to catch up...
utterly ridiculous.. a new player wouldnt have access to that much ISK that they could afford to spend it on SP's unless it was ridiculously cheap, in which case everyone would have maxed out all their skills, particularly the veterans your complaining about having such an advantage with in the first place.. lame.
I think you misread what was typed. It stated that SP would be cheap for newbies and expensive for vets.
Except for some crazy deflation after it is first implemented the idea is great. Over time everyone would be roughly the same skill level. Although I would probably change the highest skilled vet to the maximum sp value, and would probably have to change according to the amount of isk floating around.
Skill point's only benefit you in PVE. Go to any null sec area and there a plenty of players with loads of sp that never PVP because they don't know how.
There are also plenty with less than a year’s worth, with multiple toons, and leading killboards.
Are they impatient yes, but because they took the time to learn the game, they play year after year, and even though they may not always win, they rarely lose.
I may be full of shit, but you're depriving players of that opportunity.
yes yes whatever.. this started when I misqouted and put Endo13 as the source of the quote...
He and the rest of us, currently discussing, didnt really like the idea of grindable SP from missions. (im sorry if I misrepresent anyones oppinion here)
And Im sure he meant that it was the grinding of SP from missions that would benefit pve players since PvP players had to do missions to get the SP..
That was the OPs suggestion.. So lets move past that or direct your criticism at the OP.
OK so.. Lets discuss if new players gain SP too slowly, too fast, or just right.
Now Endo13 said that Players gain player skill faster than SP..
Well that certainly depends on how much you play and research and what you do with your time. I used to have player skill sprees right after I lost a ship.. or nearly lost it or encountered something new.. Rest of the time I didnt learn all that much :P
But Im perfectly happy with new players training faster for a good while.. its less punishing for them when they train into something they later realize is not to their tastes.. And having noting else to fall back on as a new player it can be pretty brutal to climb down a few branches and go off in a new direction.. A longer and better skill training boost would help that to a degree..
Another way to go about would be to have a onetime full SP reallocation option (just for new players and with a time limit) So they could take what they had learned and put it to better use..But I dont see it happening because of tiered skills.. would present a problem resetting prerequisite skills to 0 if you had already trained the advanced skills.
Skill point's only benefit you in PVE. Go to any null sec area and there a plenty of players with loads of sp that never PVP because they don't know how.
There are also plenty with less than a year’s worth, with multiple toons, and leading killboards.
Are they impatient yes, but because they took the time to learn the game, they play year after year, and even though they may not always win, they rarely lose.
I may be full of shit, but you're depriving players of that opportunity.
yes yes whatever.. this started when I misqouted and put Endo13 as the source of the quote...
He and the rest of us, currently discussing, didnt really like the idea of grindable SP from missions. (im sorry if I misrepresent anyones oppinion here)
And Im sure he meant that it was the grinding of SP from missions that would benefit pve players since PvP players had to do missions to get the SP..
That was the OPs suggestion.. So lets move past that or direct your criticism at the OP.
OK so.. Lets discuss if new players gain SP too slowly, too fast, or just right.
Now Endo13 said that Players gain player skill faster than SP..
Well that certainly depends on how much you play and research and what you do with your time. I used to have player skill sprees right after I lost a ship.. or nearly lost it or encountered something new.. Rest of the time I didnt learn all that much :P
But Im perfectly happy with new players training faster for a good while.. its less punishing for them when they train into something they later realize is not to their tastes.. And having noting else to fall back on as a new player it can be pretty brutal to climb down a few branches and go off in a new direction.. A longer and better skill training boost would help that to a degree..
Another way to go about would be to have a onetime full SP reallocation option (just for new players and with a time limit) So they could take what they had learned and put it to better use..But I dont see it happening because of tiered skills.. would present a problem resetting prerequisite skills to 0 if you had already trained the advanced skills.
Fair enough, I think a much better approach would be to provide low skill point ships designed to fill a specific role. This would give new players the ability to gain the interaction and experience they need to advance through the game.
It would need to be something valuable, that would give fleets an edge, and could only be filled by newer players, a ship that only pod pilots of a certain age could fly.
Of course, there are already several ships made for this type of role, though none are exclusively for newer players, and none are really essential.
My answer is no. Learning the skills is part of Eve and this system feels like taking shortcuts. The guys who have played Eve for years have earned the skills, supported the company, so it's only logical the vets are vets.
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
Yes that is kind of funny seeing as all Eve fans here are saying that SPs aren't important.
Ouch, this post has so many inaccuracies I just have to respond
EVE combat, like most MMORPG's, is still lock target, and hit a couple of buttons. EVE combat is not that difficult. Just like any game a player needs to learn how and when to use the right tools their character has in order to be victorious. So because EVE is like most MMORPG's in regards to combat, and it is, (trust me...there is no real "player skill" envolved like you might find in an FPS), what it boils down to in EVE in 1 vs 1 combat is skills trained and ship - and timing.
If this is how you PVP, then you are failing. Depending on the ship you have to make sure you are at the proper range, check your transversal vs your opponent, make sure you've loaded the proper ammo vs his potential weaknesses, remembered to turn on the proper modules and manage your capacitor by turning them on and off (in the case of warp drives and active shield/armor repairers) if your ship is not cap stable. It might not be twitch combat like a FPS, but there is most certainly skill to doing it properly.
And BTW, this is the most important thing perhaps, if you find yourself fighting 1 v 1 in any situation besides a duel or tournament, you're doing it wrong. (though some skilled players take great pleasure in trying to overcome long odds and fight 1 vs many)
Anyone on this board that is advocating that a t1 frigate can beat a t2 fitted BC is blowing smoke up your nether regions - it isn't going to happen. The differences in EHP and DPS is too great. Add to that that the BC, if properly fitted has warp disruptors, webifiers, and other t2 fittings - the little frigate will go pop in just a matter of seconds.
However it certainly doesn't take more than 3 months to get into a T1 fitted BC, and if you bring along a friend in a T1 fitted Blackbird (or another T1 BC) the two of you are going to be racking up a victory on the kill boards.
It's like a level 50 Hunter trying to beat a level 85 Hunter. It is never going to happen.
But it would be like two level 50 Hunters beating a level 85 hunter, which while that doesn't happen in a typical theme park MMO, it happens all the time in EVE.
BTW to go from t1 type ships to t2 takes on average 6+ months. That is 6 months of you spending $14.99 a month to be able to just bearly get into a ship capable of participating in the "edge" of the upper end of the PvP game.
You can easily get into T2 fit T2 Frigates in 6 months, and this Merc Corp full of 40M+ SP pilots is more than willing to take you under their wing. (they have a 95% Kill efficiency). I could have easily found you a dozen more good corps.
It takes a good solid year, that is 12 months of subscriptions, before you can train to fly that t2 BS(battleship) or Covert OP's with the right skills sets that will allow you to survive in the type of player vs player encounters you will find yourself getting involved with in the game of EVE.
When I first started playing EVE, in 4 months I was in 0.0 flying a T2 fitted bomber in a Stealth corp in by month 6 I was in a T1 fitted Raven blasting POS's in a 75 ship fleet during the BOB Wars. T2 fitted BS came later, but even now my Alliance flies far more OPS with smaller ships reserving the T2 BS's for the Alpha fleet encounters which are not as common as you state they are.
Unlike most MMORPG's, where players progress at their own speed, EVE puts contraints on new players that will always favor the veteran player. All this thread was suggestiing was a means for a new player to "get up to speed" in a "shorter span" of time. Waiting 6 months, to a year to become viable is what drives many players away.
I'll grant you this, some players will not wait 6 months to a year to become pretty competitive, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing, they might not be "right" for EVE. But as I posted earlier, I'm open to methods to get players into decently fitted smaller ships more quickly, as it probably will be beneficial to get more people into the game.
Allowing new players to catch up by earning SP via missions is a good alternative that might help keep new players in the game long enough that they will have the opportunity to learn the depth of the game and join a good corp. As it is now(unlike 4 or 5 years ago when corps would take a 5mil specced character) unless you have lots of PvP experience, you'll never have the opportunity as a newer player to get into a good or better than average PvP corp because they are looking for people with 30+ mil SP. Many won't even consider you if you are not atleast that high or better.
This is true, many corps want 30-40M + SP's to get in. Show up on their door step with 15M SP's and good killboard stats (which can be gained in several ways) and they'll end up taking you. But I do disagree, earning SP's via missions is not the way to go, mission running is not one of EVE's finer game mechanics (though I personally enjoyed grinding ISK out on them for a time) and I'd prefer something more like they have now, just extend the accelerated SP rate for a longer time than they currently do, and perhaps increase the rate more because I agree, EVE is a bit more fun once you get up to at least the Battlecruiser class.
If you think catching up is bad now, think what it'll be like in a few more years.
It will be exactly the same as it is today. The same ships that were useful 2 years ago will be the same ships that are useful tomorrow, EVE doesn't build in planned obsolesence, so in a few more years, a pilot with 15M SP's (about a year's worth of training) will be just as useful as he is today. Sure, there will a few corps that might ask for 50M SP's to join, but the smarter ones won't limit themselves because they know some terrific PVP pilots will be lost by such artificial and unnecessary restrictions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ouch, this post has so many inaccuracies I just have to respond
EVE combat, like most MMORPG's, is still lock target, and hit a couple of buttons. EVE combat is not that difficult. Just like any game a player needs to learn how and when to use the right tools their character has in order to be victorious. So because EVE is like most MMORPG's in regards to combat, and it is, (trust me...there is no real "player skill" envolved like you might find in an FPS), what it boils down to in EVE in 1 vs 1 combat is skills trained and ship - and timing.
If this is how you PVP, then you are failing. Depending on the ship you have to make sure you are at the proper range, check your transversal vs your opponent, make sure you've loaded the proper ammo vs his potential weaknesses, remembered to turn on the proper modules and manage your capacitor by turning them on and off (in the case of warp drives and active shield/armor repairers) if your ship is not cap stable. It might not be twitch combat like a FPS, but there is most certainly skill to doing it properly.
And BTW, this is the most important thing perhaps, if you find yourself fighting 1 v 1 in any situation besides a duel or tournament, you're doing it wrong. (though some skilled players take great pleasure in trying to overcome long odds and fight 1 vs many)
Anyone on this board that is advocating that a t1 frigate can beat a t2 fitted BC is blowing smoke up your nether regions - it isn't going to happen. The differences in EHP and DPS is too great. Add to that that the BC, if properly fitted has warp disruptors, webifiers, and other t2 fittings - the little frigate will go pop in just a matter of seconds.
However it certainly doesn't take more than 3 months to get into a T1 fitted BC, and if you bring along a friend in a T1 fitted Blackbird (or another T1 BC) the two of you are going to be racking up a victory on the kill boards.
It's like a level 50 Hunter trying to beat a level 85 Hunter. It is never going to happen.
But it would be like two level 50 Hunters beating a level 85 hunter, which while that doesn't happen in a typical theme park MMO, it happens all the time in EVE.
BTW to go from t1 type ships to t2 takes on average 6+ months. That is 6 months of you spending $14.99 a month to be able to just bearly get into a ship capable of participating in the "edge" of the upper end of the PvP game.
You can easily get into T2 fit T2 Frigates in 6 months, and this Merc Corp full of 40M+ SP pilots is more than willing to take you under their wing. (they have a 95% Kill efficiency). I could have easily found you a dozen more good corps.
It takes a good solid year, that is 12 months of subscriptions, before you can train to fly that t2 BS(battleship) or Covert OP's with the right skills sets that will allow you to survive in the type of player vs player encounters you will find yourself getting involved with in the game of EVE.
When I first started playing EVE, in 4 months I was in 0.0 flying a T2 fitted bomber in a Stealth corp in by month 6 I was in a T1 fitted Raven blasting POS's in a 75 ship fleet during the BOB Wars. T2 fitted BS came later, but even now my Alliance flies far more OPS with smaller ships reserving the T2 BS's for the Alpha fleet encounters which are not as common as you state they are.
Unlike most MMORPG's, where players progress at their own speed, EVE puts contraints on new players that will always favor the veteran player. All this thread was suggestiing was a means for a new player to "get up to speed" in a "shorter span" of time. Waiting 6 months, to a year to become viable is what drives many players away.
I'll grant you this, some players will not wait 6 months to a year to become pretty competitive, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing, they might not be "right" for EVE. But as I posted earlier, I'm open to methods to get players into decently fitted smaller ships more quickly, as it probably will be beneficial to get more people into the game.
Allowing new players to catch up by earning SP via missions is a good alternative that might help keep new players in the game long enough that they will have the opportunity to learn the depth of the game and join a good corp. As it is now(unlike 4 or 5 years ago when corps would take a 5mil specced character) unless you have lots of PvP experience, you'll never have the opportunity as a newer player to get into a good or better than average PvP corp because they are looking for people with 30+ mil SP. Many won't even consider you if you are not atleast that high or better.
This is true, many corps want 30-40M + SP's to get in. Show up on their door step with 15M SP's and good killboard stats (which can be gained in several ways) and they'll end up taking you. But I do disagree, earning SP's via missions is not the way to go, mission running is not one of EVE's finer game mechanics (though I personally enjoyed grinding ISK out on them for a time) and I'd prefer something more like they have now, just extend the accelerated SP rate for a longer time than they currently do, and perhaps increase the rate more because I agree, EVE is a bit more fun once you get up to at least the Battlecruiser class.
If you think catching up is bad now, think what it'll be like in a few more years.
It will be exactly the same as it is today. The same ships that were useful 2 years ago will be the same ships that are useful tomorrow, EVE doesn't build in planned obsolesence, so in a few more years, a pilot with 15M SP's (about a year's worth of training) will be just as useful as he is today. Sure, there will a few corps that might ask for 50M SP's to join, but the smarter ones won't limit themselves because they know some terrific PVP pilots will be lost by such artificial and unnecessary restrictions.
Wow, after reading all of the posts, it's hard to imagine how some people aren't getting this simple fact:
You can have all the SP you want, but it's not raising the hard cap on how good a ship can be.
Does more SP = more options? Yes. Does more SP = win? No.
And reaching that hard cap on even just a battlecruiser takes over TWO YEARS for the average player. That's the simple fact that people like YOU won't admit to.
You can beat around the bush all you want, throw up all kinds of smoke and mirrors, try to get people to not see that. But at the end of the day it's still there, no matter how much you want it to not be.
Here's the last thing I have to say to your ilk who keeps on insisting that skillpoints don't matter: Put your money where your goddamn mouth is then and do something to change the skillpoint difference. If you can't get CCP to change things, the least you can do is delete your own veteran characters and start fresh with nothing. Until you do that, what you say is nothing but a steaming crock of BS.
No.. its 6 months any sub BS.. so 6 months for a drake. or 6 months for a tech 2 frigate. Or 6 months for a recon.
And thats near perfect skills
Uh huh. Well, now I know you're full of shit.
And you know what, I finally realized why there's all this animosity towards new players getting a skillpoint boost. It's not because veterans care about newbies having it easier than they did. Nope. It's because they don't want newbies, period. I wonder who they think is going to keep paying real money for all that plex they buy with isk so they can keep playing for free?
Edit: According to Evemon, training to level 5 ONLY the skills that affect the 2 or 3 most common Drake builds with +5 on all attributes takes... drumroll.. over 660 days. Almost two full years, to get caught up to a veteran on ONE battlecruiser.
Thanks for playing.
Exactly. Vets always say you can fly anything within X months, when they mean you can fly with level 3/4 skills primarily. They say "Its only the support skills you wont have at 5" to try and fool those clueless about EVE. But if you know EVE you would know that those "support" skills, and there are dozens and dozens of them, each typically give you an extra 5% advantage in either offense or defense that compounds exponentially. You are easly at a 3 to 1 disadvantage or more flying the same exact ship against a vet.
The dirtly little not so secret is support skills give a MASSIVELY HUGE advantage if you got them all at 5.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
And you know what, I finally realized why there's all this animosity towards new players getting a skillpoint boost. It's not because veterans care about newbies having it easier than they did. Nope. It's because they don't want newbies, period. I wonder who they think is going to keep paying real money for all that plex they buy with isk so they can keep playing for free?
Edit: According to Evemon, training to level 5 ONLY the skills that affect the 2 or 3 most common Drake builds with +5 on all attributes takes... drumroll.. over 660 days. Almost two full years, to get caught up to a veteran on ONE battlecruiser.
Thanks for playing.
Exactly. Vets always say you can fly anything within X months, when they mean you can fly with level 3/4 skills primarily. They say "Its only the support skills you wont have at 5" to try and fool those clueless about EVE. But if you know EVE you would know that those "support" skills, and there are dozens and dozens of them, each typically give you an extra 5% advantage in either offense or defense that compounds exponentially. You are easly at a 3 to 1 disadvantage or more flying the same exact ship against a vet.
The dirtly little not so secret is support skills give a MASSIVELY HUGE advantage if you got them all at 5.
Protip: Never train skills to 5 unless you need it for ship, and only train to 5 after you have ships required skills.
Yeah, the level 5 gives a slight advantage, but PVP in EVE is almost always between fleets. That one extra skill level is minimal in that situation. Nothing to ragequit over, anyways.
Wow, after reading all of the posts, it's hard to imagine how some people aren't getting this simple fact:
You can have all the SP you want, but it's not raising the hard cap on how good a ship can be.
Does more SP = more options? Yes. Does more SP = win? No.
And reaching that hard cap on even just a battlecruiser takes over TWO YEARS for the average player. That's the simple fact that people like YOU won't admit to.
You can beat around the bush all you want, throw up all kinds of smoke and mirrors, try to get people to not see that. But at the end of the day it's still there, no matter how much you want it to not be.
Shennanigans. Even with weapon specs to V - and hardly anyone trains those - it's not two years to max out any battlecruiser. I'll bet you're padding that list by including stuff like all the shield compensations to 5 when in fact they're almost worthless. After two years, a combat focused character should be able to fly the T2 frigates, HACs, Recons, Logistics, battlecruisers and maybe the battleships of his chosen race as well as anyone he's likely to meet. Depending on how well he's optimised his skill plan and which race he's started out, he might still only have battleship 4 and still be using T1 torps on his stealth bomber. No biggie.
You can paste "all level 5" evemon lists here all day, but that's the truth. Very very few people train "all level 5", and the difference on the battlefield between "all level 5" and "mostly 4s with a few well-chosen 5s" is less than the difference made by everyday circumstantial advantages like depleting ones capacitor by making a long warp, or being the guy who jumps in through the gate and has to accelerate to full speed and activate mods.
The reality of the skillpoint climb is that you are fairly severely limited in your PvP options by your SP until about 5-6M, by which time you should be flying your chosen subBS class reasonably well, somewhat limited up to around 12M-14M, and by the time you hit 25M SP (which should take 14-16 months) you should be considering whether you're going for capital ships (dont go for capital ships they're horrible) or training another race.
I have close to 90M SP, and I haven't trained a single weapon spec to 5. I have only just recently dont my armour comp skills to 5. What I have done is trained all 4 races so I can maximise the range of different ships I can fly.
And I will tell you this: An "all 4s" gang with a good FC will utterly murder an "all 5s" gang with the same ships without a competent FC.
More smoke, mirrors, and lies. I've done fits in Evemon. I KNOW what the difference is between level 4 and level 5, even on the "unimportant" skills. If your skill affects a mod your ship fit uses, then level 5 is an advantage. It's like compound interest. Two percent here, 5 percent there, 3 percent somewhere else. Doesn't look like much, but when you add it all up it means 25% more tank, or 25% more DPS, or 25% more cap, or 25% more of something else that's going to make the difference. Claiming it doesn't matter is a crock.
"PvP in Eve is almost always between fleets". Really? Take a look at the killboards. You're so far off on this one easy-to-research fact, it's hard to give any credability to ANYTHING you have to say.
Search the official forums. There are players wanting CCP to bring back small scale PVP, that the game is all fleet warfare now.
And once again, I never said level 5 skills don't matter (where are you getting this from?). I said to train them LAST, since they're NOT needed to be viable in PVP. If you believe otherwise, you need to go out and do some PVP yourself. Look at the thread on this board (it's on first page) where a player beat a dev who had way more SP.
And you know what, I finally realized why there's all this animosity towards new players getting a skillpoint boost. It's not because veterans care about newbies having it easier than they did. Nope. It's because they don't want newbies, period. I wonder who they think is going to keep paying real money for all that plex they buy with isk so they can keep playing for free?
Edit: According to Evemon, training to level 5 ONLY the skills that affect the 2 or 3 most common Drake builds with +5 on all attributes takes... drumroll.. over 660 days. Almost two full years, to get caught up to a veteran on ONE battlecruiser.
Thanks for playing.
Exactly. Vets always say you can fly anything within X months, when they mean you can fly with level 3/4 skills primarily. They say "Its only the support skills you wont have at 5" to try and fool those clueless about EVE. But if you know EVE you would know that those "support" skills, and there are dozens and dozens of them, each typically give you an extra 5% advantage in either offense or defense that compounds exponentially. You are easly at a 3 to 1 disadvantage or more flying the same exact ship against a vet.
The dirtly little not so secret is support skills give a MASSIVELY HUGE advantage if you got them all at 5.
Protip: Never train skills to 5 unless you need it for ship, and only train to 5 after you have ships required skills.
Yeah, the level 5 gives a slight advantage, but PVP in EVE is almost always between fleets. That one extra skill level is minimal in that situation. Nothing to ragequit over, anyways.
Another veteran tactict in these discussions is to subtely change the discussion from "Vets have permanent and massive advantages over noobs due to the skill point gap" to one of the below listed diversions. They change it around and mix it up to confuse the noobs, but they always change the topic from the REAL discussion which is eliminating a built in advantage due to paying more monthly dues for longer. Diversionary tactics include:
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat"
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Another veteran tactict in these discussions is to subtely change the discussion from "Vets have permanent and massive advantages over noobs due to the skill point gap" to one of the below listed diversions. They change it around and mix it up to confuse the noobs, but they always change the topic from the REAL discussion which is eliminating a built in advantage due to paying more monthly dues for longer. Diversionary tactics include:
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat"
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
Everything isn't a conspiracy theory, it's okay.
I started in early 2009. I'm doing PVP with my corp and doing damn well. Sad your missing out by telling yourself such things.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Another veteran tactict in these discussions is to subtely change the discussion from "Vets have permanent and massive advantages over noobs due to the skill point gap" to one of the below listed diversions. They change it around and mix it up to confuse the noobs, but they always change the topic from the REAL discussion which is eliminating a built in advantage due to paying more monthly dues for longer. Diversionary tactics include:
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat"
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
Everything isn't a conspiracy theory, it's okay.
Ah, then there is diversion: 6) Cast dispersions on the people who actually know how the game works and avoid the question altogether.
The reality is there are lots of diversionary tactics, but it really really is a game for veterans. Its not conspiracy theory, it is just the way it is. Just take the following example:
CCP changed some of the early skills to make them unnecessary, because they realized noobs wasting time training skills that do nothing but make you train faster is a waste of time and didn't let them actually advance in the game. Sounds great for the noobs right? But how did they implement it? They gave all the veterans in the game free skill points equal to the skills they removed from the game. Veterans insisted that they get free skill points to compensate them for the change. Yes, those same skill points that are claimed to be "meaningless"
LOL. True story...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Ah, then there is diversion: 6) Cast dispersions on the people who actually know how the game works and avoid the question altogether.
The reality is there are lots of diversionary tactics, but it really really is a game for veterans. Its not conspiracy theory, it is just the way it is. Just take the following example:
CCP changed some of the early skills to make them unnecessary, because they realized noobs wasting time training skills that do nothing but make you train faster is a waste of time and didn't let them actually advance in the game. Sounds great for the noobs right? But how did they implement it? They gave all the veterans in the game free skill points equal to the skills they removed from the game. Veterans insisted that they get free skill points to compensate them for the change. Yes, those same skill points that are claimed to be "meaningless"
LOL. True story...
Me getting some PVP in with a corp on a char thats not even 2 years yet is avoiding the question? I was proving a point, that new players CAN participate in PVP, and CAN be meaningful.
Ah, then there is diversion: 6) Cast dispersions on the people who actually know how the game works and avoid the question altogether.
The reality is there are lots of diversionary tactics, but it really really is a game for veterans. Its not conspiracy theory, it is just the way it is. Just take the following example:
CCP changed some of the early skills to make them unnecessary, because they realized noobs wasting time training skills that do nothing but make you train faster is a waste of time and didn't let them actually advance in the game. Sounds great for the noobs right? But how did they implement it? They gave all the veterans in the game free skill points equal to the skills they removed from the game. Veterans insisted that they get free skill points to compensate them for the change. Yes, those same skill points that are claimed to be "meaningless"
LOL. True story...
Haven't you heard? That's not possible because Eve is perfect and veterans have no significant over new players. Skillpoints mean nothing.
Ah, then there is diversion: 6) Cast dispersions on the people who actually know how the game works and avoid the question altogether.
The reality is there are lots of diversionary tactics, but it really really is a game for veterans. Its not conspiracy theory, it is just the way it is. Just take the following example:
CCP changed some of the early skills to make them unnecessary, because they realized noobs wasting time training skills that do nothing but make you train faster is a waste of time and didn't let them actually advance in the game. Sounds great for the noobs right? But how did they implement it? They gave all the veterans in the game free skill points equal to the skills they removed from the game. Veterans insisted that they get free skill points to compensate them for the change. Yes, those same skill points that are claimed to be "meaningless"
LOL. True story...
Me getting some PVP in with a corp on a char thats not even 2 years yet is avoiding the question? I was proving a point, that new players CAN participate in PVP, and CAN be meaningful.
No, that is diversionary tactic 1) above...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
thank you WWB4W. This my friends is called INTERACTION. Let's see here...he would travel to a deadend .4 or .3 system and rat some. Then he might run into another player and they would fight a bit and here comes the good part...THEY would DISCUSS fittings, loadouts, etc.
I keep telling new fish this over and over. If you are soloing or generally lonely in EvE...it's YOUR fault. FIND something to do. See those little pictures in local? They are other human players there. Make note of who is in your system...you will be glad you learned this early in your career.
Next, see what they do. Offer to help them rat or mine or haul or whatever. Don't beg. If they say no..no worries. This is where adults have advantages over children in this game. I deal with adults daily. I'm used to it. If I need something, I approach people like an adult...try it out.
Next..get on a VOIP service and bingo!! you have a new EvE friend. Now maybe when you go into that dread Ammake or some other low sec system...you have someone that might watch out for you.
For God's sake...whatever you do...don't stay in the NPC Corp forever...these people are hi sec dwellers and have no real interest in moving on. Some of them are so jaded and will tell you never trust anyone, never do any favors, nothing. Sadly, some of this is true...but if you are a brand new person...what have you to lose?
Time? A frigate? A little bit of isk? Really...this is why you will never accept a fleet invite? True scamming/skulldruggery isn't until much later in the game. If you are in a null sec holding corp of a large alliance...then that's a different story. If you are in the NPC corp and running missions..you are at the bottom of the barrel. Some people get so used to eating shit, they should name all of their marauders "Catfish."
Get out of the NPC corp and take a chance. All the fruit is at the end of the damn tree limb...stretch out and get it.
Edit:spelling
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Skill point's only benefit you in PVE. Go to any null sec area and there a plenty of players with loads of sp that never PVP because they don't know how.
There are also plenty with less than a year’s worth, with multiple toons, and leading killboards.
Are they impatient yes, but because they took the time to learn the game, they play year after year, and even though they may not always win, they rarely lose.
I may be full of shit, but you're depriving players of that opportunity.
I think you misread what was typed. It stated that SP would be cheap for newbies and expensive for vets.
Except for some crazy deflation after it is first implemented the idea is great. Over time everyone would be roughly the same skill level. Although I would probably change the highest skilled vet to the maximum sp value, and would probably have to change according to the amount of isk floating around.
yes yes whatever.. this started when I misqouted and put Endo13 as the source of the quote...
He and the rest of us, currently discussing, didnt really like the idea of grindable SP from missions. (im sorry if I misrepresent anyones oppinion here)
And Im sure he meant that it was the grinding of SP from missions that would benefit pve players since PvP players had to do missions to get the SP..
That was the OPs suggestion.. So lets move past that or direct your criticism at the OP.
OK so.. Lets discuss if new players gain SP too slowly, too fast, or just right.
Now Endo13 said that Players gain player skill faster than SP..
Well that certainly depends on how much you play and research and what you do with your time. I used to have player skill sprees right after I lost a ship.. or nearly lost it or encountered something new.. Rest of the time I didnt learn all that much :P
But Im perfectly happy with new players training faster for a good while.. its less punishing for them when they train into something they later realize is not to their tastes.. And having noting else to fall back on as a new player it can be pretty brutal to climb down a few branches and go off in a new direction.. A longer and better skill training boost would help that to a degree..
Another way to go about would be to have a onetime full SP reallocation option (just for new players and with a time limit) So they could take what they had learned and put it to better use..But I dont see it happening because of tiered skills.. would present a problem resetting prerequisite skills to 0 if you had already trained the advanced skills.
Fair enough, I think a much better approach would be to provide low skill point ships designed to fill a specific role. This would give new players the ability to gain the interaction and experience they need to advance through the game.
It would need to be something valuable, that would give fleets an edge, and could only be filled by newer players, a ship that only pod pilots of a certain age could fly.
Of course, there are already several ships made for this type of role, though none are exclusively for newer players, and none are really essential.
My answer is no. Learning the skills is part of Eve and this system feels like taking shortcuts. The guys who have played Eve for years have earned the skills, supported the company, so it's only logical the vets are vets.
Yes that is kind of funny seeing as all Eve fans here are saying that SPs aren't important.
My gaming blog
Nope, as this force/encourage players to grind an aspect of the game which is against the point of EVE which is flexibility in gameplay and freedom.
Can the OP come up with something that is more....well......thoughout and will not affect EVE negatively?
I vote yes, it's impossible to catch up with people that have 3-4 year advantage, no matter how much you play.
They will simply have more stats, more ships - more options then any other player, hardcore or not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wow, after reading all of the posts, it's hard to imagine how some people aren't getting this simple fact:
You can have all the SP you want, but it's not raising the hard cap on how good a ship can be.
Does more SP = more options? Yes. Does more SP = win? No.
No
It never fails to amuse me to see how widespread the fallacy of "making a game easier makes it more fun" is.
For shame, OP. You're old enough to know better.
"That which is gotten cheaply is held in contempt"
Give me liberty or give me lasers
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/34482-Myrmidon-Best-PvP-Battlecruiser-Period.html#loadout
Not even a year to train, and perfectly viable in PVP.
That's not even taking in the faster skill training time in the first month if a character buys a boxed copy.
And no one is saying BC are only option for PVP. A variety of ship types are needed. Bring a fleet of BC's, the other fleet will lol.
Exactly. Vets always say you can fly anything within X months, when they mean you can fly with level 3/4 skills primarily. They say "Its only the support skills you wont have at 5" to try and fool those clueless about EVE. But if you know EVE you would know that those "support" skills, and there are dozens and dozens of them, each typically give you an extra 5% advantage in either offense or defense that compounds exponentially. You are easly at a 3 to 1 disadvantage or more flying the same exact ship against a vet.
The dirtly little not so secret is support skills give a MASSIVELY HUGE advantage if you got them all at 5.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Protip: Never train skills to 5 unless you need it for ship, and only train to 5 after you have ships required skills.
Yeah, the level 5 gives a slight advantage, but PVP in EVE is almost always between fleets. That one extra skill level is minimal in that situation. Nothing to ragequit over, anyways.
Shennanigans. Even with weapon specs to V - and hardly anyone trains those - it's not two years to max out any battlecruiser. I'll bet you're padding that list by including stuff like all the shield compensations to 5 when in fact they're almost worthless. After two years, a combat focused character should be able to fly the T2 frigates, HACs, Recons, Logistics, battlecruisers and maybe the battleships of his chosen race as well as anyone he's likely to meet. Depending on how well he's optimised his skill plan and which race he's started out, he might still only have battleship 4 and still be using T1 torps on his stealth bomber. No biggie.
You can paste "all level 5" evemon lists here all day, but that's the truth. Very very few people train "all level 5", and the difference on the battlefield between "all level 5" and "mostly 4s with a few well-chosen 5s" is less than the difference made by everyday circumstantial advantages like depleting ones capacitor by making a long warp, or being the guy who jumps in through the gate and has to accelerate to full speed and activate mods.
The reality of the skillpoint climb is that you are fairly severely limited in your PvP options by your SP until about 5-6M, by which time you should be flying your chosen subBS class reasonably well, somewhat limited up to around 12M-14M, and by the time you hit 25M SP (which should take 14-16 months) you should be considering whether you're going for capital ships (dont go for capital ships they're horrible) or training another race.
I have close to 90M SP, and I haven't trained a single weapon spec to 5. I have only just recently dont my armour comp skills to 5. What I have done is trained all 4 races so I can maximise the range of different ships I can fly.
And I will tell you this: An "all 4s" gang with a good FC will utterly murder an "all 5s" gang with the same ships without a competent FC.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Search the official forums. There are players wanting CCP to bring back small scale PVP, that the game is all fleet warfare now.
And once again, I never said level 5 skills don't matter (where are you getting this from?). I said to train them LAST, since they're NOT needed to be viable in PVP. If you believe otherwise, you need to go out and do some PVP yourself. Look at the thread on this board (it's on first page) where a player beat a dev who had way more SP.
Another veteran tactict in these discussions is to subtely change the discussion from "Vets have permanent and massive advantages over noobs due to the skill point gap" to one of the below listed diversions. They change it around and mix it up to confuse the noobs, but they always change the topic from the REAL discussion which is eliminating a built in advantage due to paying more monthly dues for longer. Diversionary tactics include:
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat"
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
4) "Look at killboard, noobs can beat vets." Again, changes the question. Sure you CAN beat a vet caught offgaurd or with a bad fitting or who just plain sucks, but that is the exception. It means you overcame the massive disadvantage you have and won. Who wants to constantly play without all their chess pieces though?
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
The real discussion is vets will never willingly give up their advantage. They feel they've earned a built in advantage and DONT want an even playing field with new players EVER. EVE is a game for vets. Noobs need to know that.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Everything isn't a conspiracy theory, it's okay.
I started in early 2009. I'm doing PVP with my corp and doing damn well. Sad your missing out by telling yourself such things.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Ah, then there is diversion: 6) Cast dispersions on the people who actually know how the game works and avoid the question altogether.
The reality is there are lots of diversionary tactics, but it really really is a game for veterans. Its not conspiracy theory, it is just the way it is. Just take the following example:
CCP changed some of the early skills to make them unnecessary, because they realized noobs wasting time training skills that do nothing but make you train faster is a waste of time and didn't let them actually advance in the game. Sounds great for the noobs right? But how did they implement it? They gave all the veterans in the game free skill points equal to the skills they removed from the game. Veterans insisted that they get free skill points to compensate them for the change. Yes, those same skill points that are claimed to be "meaningless"
LOL. True story...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Me getting some PVP in with a corp on a char thats not even 2 years yet is avoiding the question? I was proving a point, that new players CAN participate in PVP, and CAN be meaningful.
Haven't you heard? That's not possible because Eve is perfect and veterans have no significant over new players. Skillpoints mean nothing.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
No, that is diversionary tactic 1) above...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements