The biggest reason is that in the past 10 years or so Consoles have gotten to a point where they really compete with PCs because people are getting lazy and tired of trying to keep upgrading a PC, so they just resort to the cheaper and easier console. With this shift MMO companys are having to simplify UIs to convince consolers just to play them, and even worse Devs are now trying to cross platform MMOs to get that revenue, which means the game isnt has to be simplified so as to work on a console and so PC gamers suffer.
You'll notice also that Devs are relying on the cartoony graphics more and more because it can be run on much older PCs which is them trying to convince people if they play their game, they wont have to deal with constant computer upgrading.
Any way you look at it, its the PC gamers slow death and decline.
I get your reasoning but I've got to disagree with you on PC gaming (in general). I think its as strong as its been since the late 90s.
I don't think the problem is with existing PC gamers going to consoles. I think we have more console gamers coming to PCs as gaming computers & computer games become cheaper (Steam + F2P MMORPGs)
Consoles ARE becoming more PC Like with all the media center functionality & tv / movie streaming capability.....but the dynamics that determine which sort of gamers game on which devices are still the same. PC gamers are generally more sophisticated gamers that have more time / resources for games. Console gamers are typically casual gamer types that play in short cycles.
So my theory is that PC MMORPGs are having to "dumb down" their content and game play because they are trying to hold on to a gamer audience that previously enjoyed game dynamics related to console gaming (casual gaming).
This becomes a slippery slope for MMORPGs because the more casual your audience is....the more types of media & entertainment your game will have to compete with. For example, I'd venture to say that a game like EVE has less farmville gamers as World of Warcraft (as a percentage of population). As a result, EVE has to spend less time working in game elements (that may contradict with its original intent) that appeal to casual entertainment media than World of Warcraft does.
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk Well imo most of the reasons for failure stem from one source - the inability of the devs to switch from single player "content delivery" to multiplayer "social fun space" thinking. 1) Linearity and "disposability" of PvE content. If you set up the game in the same way as a single-player game to be "run through" then don't expect to retain subs once this content has been used up and don't act surprised if players complain of other users "getting in the way". Of course they will complain if there are strangers running all over their basically single-player experience. 2) Perception of a mmorpg as a "game" rather than a "world". This ties in with above. If you're designing the said "social fun space" then first you design the world framework which is capable of containing many "games". Example: crafting. While many find crafting uninteresting, some do. Crafting is basically a game within the larger mmo world framework. And so is raiding and PvP etc etc. A good mmo design offers many different strokes for different folks but never absolutely requires the players to participate in any of them because that would alienate potential customer segments that absolutely loathe that part of the game experience. 3) Linear progression. I don't mean anything prosaic like levels vs skills debate. What I mean is that the classical RPG paradigm where the more you play the more powerful you are is a long-term death for a mmo world since it effectively cuts of new arrivals from participating meaningfully once the original population ages sufficiently. A model with purely cosmetical achievements and modest real power gap between arrivals and old fogies (GW1 is sterling example) is much much more appropriate for the mentioned "social fun space". 4) Lack of emergent gameplay experiences. If a game wishes to retain freshness of experience ant thus subscriptions it absolutely NEEDS mechanisms that would generate emergent gameplay experiences. Sadly, in todays mainstream mmos the only source of this emergent experience comes from either guild drama or maybe PvP if the area is large/complex enough so that elements you can't actually see or directly influence do have an impact on your situation (aka world PvP). 5) Faulty pricing models. So far all are crap. Subs drive away people. Item shops are tacky. One-off purchase is not enough to finance the mmo overheads, especially customer service. This needs to be rethought. Imo the only fair/viable model is box purchase with additional downloadable content. Actually this is the D&D pen-and-paper model with its basic sets and adventure modules and it worked quite well all these years.
+1 - excellent post. Thanks for sharing that. I think you are close to the mark myself, and I bemoan the loss of community and team-orientation. I think it's tied very closely to the difference between "Single Player" and "Social Fun Space". You can draw a pretty clear line in the evolution of Everquest, for example, and see where they crossed over from "Social Fun Space" to "Single Player End Game Race"
I think one of the main reasons must be the people who ultimately make the decisions on what happens in and with a game.
When 90% of gamers can look at a game direction change, or various aspects of an existing game and say, "I don't believe they thought that was a good idea, thats insane...", then there's something wrong with the decision making process within that company.
Its happening again with Fallen Earth it seems. The dumbing down of a complex game to try to 'appeal' to a wider audience so the game doesn't take a nose dive. Everyone knows thats a crap idea, and everyone knows what needs to be done to Fallen Earth so people actually want to play it. Do they make those changes? No, course not.
The MMO industry is currently split into various camps. The companies who's soul focus is money, where they make a shallow game that looks flashy so they can make enough inital money to turn a profit before winding the game down. The Asian market who just don't get the western one. Free MMO's that are absolute garbage and add a cash shop, which in essence means the game isn't actually free to play if you want to 'compete'. The Indy market, full of people who actually have great ideas and a passion for the genre, but just don't have the cash or the skills to put their ideas into place.
It's always the same. A game idea is released with a video, and everyone thinks 'Oh my god, this is IT!!!!'. Then the facts start to trickle out, with the usual game breakers that make everyone want to scream. Typical example is finding out a fantastic looking game is completely instanced with a 'hub', they just don't seem to get why thats shit. Warhammer 40K is going to be one such game I reckon. The ability to plough in the cash with millions of slavering games workshop fans waiting to devote their lives to a game and BE A SPACE MARINE OMG... yet you know, you just know... they will f**k it up.
For me, there are a list of things I would love to see in a game, and it seems to match other peoples views as well. I don't think I need to list them, I bet anyone on this site could produce the same ones. Things like player housing, freedom to go anywhere, a deep and meaningful crafting experience, a working economy, player driven content etc etc etc.
After years of waiting though, I honestly think this won't happen. Its all about the money, and thats what spoils the games. Lack of it, or too much of it to care. Oddly enough, if they forgot about 'business models' and how they were going to spin a profit, and focused on the game, they would actually make a fortune...
This is an excellent point and I agree. In regards to Fallen Earth: The 2 reasons that made me quit are the LONG periods of darkness and no way to quickly travel from place to place. I mean - the long travel time to the next zone is fun the 1st time but after having to drive for 20 mins everytime I want to go somewhere (in the dark) just kills the game for me.
Every MMO I've played recently has failed in every way for me. Star Wars galaxies probably had one of the best ideas for overall game design and then completely screwed the pooch. How many MMO's have to fail before these wizards of smart realize they're doing it wrong?
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
MMO's releasing in the past few years have failed for several reasons... however the biggest reason in my opinion is this.
Lack of attempting to evolve the genre beyond what it has been since the day EQ launched, the only companies trying something different are indie developers without the funding or man-power to fully realize their vision.
If I had to make a list however of why MOST current and shortly to come MMOs fail the five reasons would be...
1. Lack of meaningful PvP
2. Tab-targeting combat
3. Themepark
4. Item grind
5. end game is nothing but raiding for better gear to raid better.
I agree with 2, 3 and 4. 1 has very little to do with anything, a game is a complex and monumental undertaking regardless of the platform. It's like having to choose between walking on hot coals or walking on glass. It's a major effort either way, so people are going to go where the money is, and MMOs are huge potential profits.
Also for 5, casual audiences are actually where the money currently is. Everytime I see people say this is the reason for failure, I'm mixed. On one hand I agree, games are incredibly easy and sometimes that invites the wrong kind of people in and also makes it harder to create a community. However, because they're so casual, more people are interested in playing, meaning money to be made and thus more interest in developers to make the games in the first place. So I guess you're half-and-half there. I'd rather not go back to the uber hardcore days of Ultima, or the days of camping a monster spawn in EQ, but I don't like how childishly easy and boring games are these days either. I'm hoping for GW2 to strike that balance.
Also for those talking about meaningful PvP, video games were hugely popular long before any of us got the chance to kill each other in them. The Street Fighters and Mortal Kombats came much later, and they don't come with the ability to gank. Meaningful PvP is a niche desire, that's not something that's going to get people rushing to play your game no matter how much you want it to be otherwise. PvP is something PvE'ers will try out ~later~, once they've had enough of the PvE content, but you gotta get them into your game first, and PvP is not how you're going to do that. The only way you're going to get PvP to truly matter on a larger scale in an MMO, is if FPSers suddenly decide to play RPGs (whee, acronyms!)
BTW, just something I noticed (and predict). With the amount of games going F2P or starting off that way, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually developers take a step back from MMOs. OP was right, the market is WAY oversaturated right now, but if you take out subscriptions, the potential for long-term profits is less set in stone. Sure you can set up an item mall and do expansions, but thanks to the advent of DLC you can do that with a console game, too. I think, soon (probably with the success of GW2, since its B2P) developers will realize this and we'll see them start to shy away from MMOs and ~hopefully~ go back to making decent single-player and Co-op games.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
MMO's releasing in the past few years have failed for several reasons... however the biggest reason in my opinion is this.
Lack of attempting to evolve the genre beyond what it has been since the day EQ launched, the only companies trying something different are indie developers without the funding or man-power to fully realize their vision.
If I had to make a list however of why MOST current and shortly to come MMOs fail the five reasons would be...
1. Lack of meaningful PvP
2. Tab-targeting combat
3. Themepark
4. Item grind
5. end game is nothing but raiding for better gear to raid better.
6. End-game is the most there is to the game, developers invest most of their time in end-game and don't seem to even make an attempt to make the journey more enjoyable.
I agree with 2, 3 and 4. 1 has very little to do with anything, a game is a complex and monumental undertaking regardless of the platform. It's like having to choose between walking on hot coals or walking on glass. It's a major effort either way, so people are going to go where the money is, and MMOs are huge potential profits.
Also for 5, casual audiences are actually where the money currently is. Everytime I see people say this is the reason for failure, I'm mixed. On one hand I agree, games are incredibly easy and sometimes that invites the wrong kind of people in and also makes it harder to create a community. However, because they're so casual, more people are interested in playing, meaning money to be made and thus more interest in developers to make the games in the first place. So I guess you're half-and-half there. I'd rather not go back to the uber hardcore days of Ultima, or the days of camping a monster spawn in EQ, but I don't like how childishly easy and boring games are these days either. I'm hoping for GW2 to strike that balance.
Also for those talking about meaningful PvP, video games were hugely popular long before any of us got the chance to kill each other in them. The Street Fighters and Mortal Kombats came much later, and they don't come with the ability to gank. Meaningful PvP is a niche desire, that's not something that's going to get people rushing to play your game no matter how much you want it to be otherwise. PvP is something PvE'ers will try out ~later~, once they've had enough of the PvE content, but you gotta get them into your game first, and PvP is not how you're going to do that. The only way you're going to get PvP to truly matter on a larger scale in an MMO, is if FPSers suddenly decide to play RPGs (whee, acronyms!)
BTW, just something I noticed (and predict). With the amount of games going F2P or starting off that way, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually developers take a step back from MMOs. OP was right, the market is WAY oversaturated right now, but if you take out subscriptions, the potential for long-term profits is less set in stone. Sure you can set up an item mall and do expansions, but thanks to the advent of DLC you can do that with a console game, too. I think, soon (probably with the success of GW2, since its B2P) developers will realize this and we'll see them start to shy away from MMOs and ~hopefully~ go back to making decent single-player and Co-op games.
Good comments, but I wanted to touch on the part about having the extra money and players in the MMORPG market being a good thing....
While there are more "Gamers" and money flowing through the genere......what good is it really when these additional gamers are crying to developers to make the MMORPGs more like their casual console experience? Or what good does having all this extra money flowing around the industry when the main Western AAA publishers won't fund anything that doesn't look, smell, and taste like World of Warcraft?
Yea...Bioware is dropping 400+ million dollars on MMORPG...sweet right? No, it's going to provide the same general game experience as World of Warcraft.....which is the same thing people have been playing for 7 years.
So all this extra attention that MMORPGs have gotten in the last 10 years has given us a new majority in the MMO playerbase that advocate for all things similar to their old casual gaming experience and money that is horded for massive projects that offer little innovation from what WOW was able to do waaaay back in 2004.
Stagnation : The designs and the innovative uses of the engines availible have become stagnant to the point where innovation was something that happen 10 years ago. When's the last time someone played a game and thought that's are really cool or interesting gameplay mechanic?
Consoles: While I'm not bashing them as a game platform , I am bashing the Devs for basically ignoring the PC market for the last almost 10 years now.The beauty of consoles was the ease to which you could develop to . The curse of consoles was the preception that PC gaming was dead and that consoles would replce PC's for all aspects of gaming. Developers designed games that would be great for consoles ( which of course console makers tried to encourage, because their profits were tied to the games on consoles ) , but didn't really work or port over very well to PC's. ( PC makers make zero from games ) It made sense, it was easy and predictible to make games for consoles, less piracy , larger audience.
Greed : Let's face it the optimal situtation is to grab a well know IP, glorify what you're going to do with it , release it and rake the cash in. It doesn't matter if the game is good or even content wise relatively passable. Just so long as the IP fanboi's defend and buy up what you're selling. ( The refrain of " it's a MMO they are never a finished product " will be the battle call. ) When an MMO is released with less content then a single player game ( average I think is 40 hours ) you know it's a cash grab.
Learning Curve: Use to be it would take the entire game to master your characters abilities or months to level . Now partly because of # 2 and 3 , it's far faster. That's not to say everyone always going to masters their character, but that a different topic. Why do I point to #2 and 3 , well it may be generational it may be because of how console players are conditioned to game. Depth is not a prerequisite for most console based games, niether is social interaction. While I'm certain that examples can be and will be brought forward to say this isn't the case, the same can be said of quite a few PC games. Point being that Developers have gotten away from challenging the player base , or relenting and trying to please the entire player base.
Players: I believe we're partially to blame . Why ? We buy the crap , we defend the crap , and basically keep giving companies sometimes more chances then they deserve. We also contribute , by whinning our asses off if we don't get our way , or something is to difficult. Instead of using our brains or social contact to find a solution. The player that treats an MMO as a single player game and wonders why he can't do all the content, and then whines about it. By lowering our expectations and accepting what's out there, we make the situtation worse.
We all know content is always a big issue with MMO's , but I think if they address the above the rest takes care of itself.
What bezado said on the first page is basically my view point as well. Very well thought out, more so than the OP.
Playing: CS:S, Waiting to try out TOR. Played: Sword of the New World, Infantryzone, Ragnarok Online,RF Online, Fury, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, Cosmic Rift....
Bad coding. There are many reasons that MMOs doesn't do as well as they should, everything from small world to antisocial dynamics. But the reason Blizzard still rules is because they have really good programmers and that is the minimum requirement for success.
EQ2 and Wow almost released at the same time and the difference is not really that big besides the fact that EQ2s engine is full of bugs and bad performance. If it were the other way around EQ2 would be the big game.
The reason GW have sold 7 million boxes even though it is a really low budget game is the same: it have great coding.
A game can't just survive on good coding but any game without it is doomed to be a small niche game or a failure.
Blizzard owns the mmo genre because there are probably the only ones who take the time to do it right. From marketing strategy to gameplay design and just purely making fun games Blizzard wether you like them or not does it right.
1. Complexity of the PC - From windows itself it is very hard to get a mmo wto work correctly with windows. You also have the complexity of the hardware where memory and video card issues are always a tough task at hand. Networking issues are probably one of the biggest reason why devs can't nail down the lag issue.
2. It is a copycat league - Since Everquest launch I thnk I played Everquest 10 times over and then some. There absolutely no creativity whatever right now.
3. MMO saturation - The mmo market is overloaded with mmos. How can one possibly max profit when the market has so many mmos competing at the same time not to mention WoW holds a ton of subscribers as it is. Stop mass producing mmos and maybe try to attempt to get 1 mmo done the right way.
4. Social Aspect is gone - Just about every mmo created these days is build around a single player mentality. Back in the day it was about community and working together to accomplish goals.
5. Stop catering to casuals - Oh yes the big one. How can you ever make something viable and fun when you have to make dumbed down content where even a caveman so to speak can figure it out. All mmos are on easy mode because a puchase is more cherished than a communities fun and a genres long term success.
I say it is time to make something creative, fun and for god sakes please stop using 2002 technolgy.
Intro: disagree, Blizzard did a childhood game, WoW is like a WII.
1) Disagree, using PC is, from WinXP, reasonable easy. I use PC from DOS era, so... .p
2) Agree, there's no or very few creativity in MMOs. A lot of grinding games, with tons of dungeos (and the king is WoW) and few great games: DAoC, EVE and other 2 or 3.
3) Totally agree: there are a lot of MMO out there. This site game list is very, very, very long. Stop, no more new MMOs for some years, please! Grab your MMO and do it perfect (modern graphic for DAoC, better learning curve for ECE and so on). Do your MMO near perfection instead doing another crap game.
4) So and so. WoW broke social(ist? ) aspect with a "single player" mode from lvl 1 till cap level. I like to play alone some times but they are Massive Multiplayer games, not Alone Online Games with a chat. But it is a games or pklayers failure? IMHO players: if you want play with other do it, now!
5) So and so. Casual MMO can be nice for people that cannot spand a lot of time in order to play. We have a social life, after all: pizza, friends, girlfriends, sex, work, study and so on. So, for old players like me (near to 49) casual games can be, sometimes, nice. We haven't time for grinding or a lot of time for big dungeons so... BTW mostly "casual MMO" aren't casual. E.G.: WoW is a casual MMO until level cap. But at (65/75/85/100/etc) casual players or quit the game or become hardcore gamers: too many time to spent inside dungeobs is not for real casual players. "Wii us", lol.
Comclusion: totally agree, except "2002 tecnology". MMO producers and publishers need a lot of money, so they must do game for all, or mostly PC.
Originally posted by Loke666 Bad coding. There are many reasons that MMOs doesn't do as well as they should, everything from small world to antisocial dynamics. But the reason Blizzard still rules is because they have really good programmers and that is the minimum requirement for success. EQ2 and Wow almost released at the same time and the difference is not really that big besides the fact that EQ2s engine is full of bugs and bad performance. If it were the other way around EQ2 would be the big game. The reason GW have sold 7 million boxes even though it is a really low budget game is the same: it have great coding. A game can't just survive on good coding but any game without it is doomed to be a small niche game or a failure.
To go along with that thought, I think most games simply shouldn't be touched for 6 months to a year before any real analysis is made. They seem to require that time to flesh out the world and conquer technological hurdles in what is essentially an ongoing beta close to release. Usually due to the inability to hold off the bean counters for any longer.
People tend to play the beta and roll that over into a subscription only to be disappointed with the 'inevitable' problems. The vast amount of time even the average gamer devotes to an MMO makes me wonder why they tend to jump from game to game without letting them grow.
From marketing strategy to gameplay design and just purely making fun games Blizzard wether you like them or not does it right.
If blizzard was "doing it right", then you, me and all the other people out here bitching would instead be happilly playing WoW - the "done right" game. As we aren't, i would venture say to say that no, Blizzard isn't doing it right.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
the physics and movement mechanics of an action game, like DMC or older 3d action games
the level up system of either eden eternal, runes of magic, or ffxi.
customization options from either champions online or apb.
Quests like old style RPGs, yet determined by your actions, not a predetermined path.
Skills from healer, to tank, to dps, to heavy hitters, to magic damage dealers, to ranged weapon users
genres from steampunk, fantasy, apocolyptic, gothic (vampire and horror things), all mixed into a flowing world, as there are many ways to strategicly place each genre, while intermingling.
Fully customizable craft system kind of like minecraft, where its so easy a cave man can do it, yet so complex that you can make huge things to benefit like houses, and vehicles, and things.
A fully interactive world where objects move when you touch them, you can pick up things like champions online relative to your strength, and destroy walls and objects while including a respawn timer, long enough to maneuver through objects and leaving a path for a while, almost like spiderman's web that dissolves after a set time period.
All this with a fully operation auction house and economy would be the perfect mmo for most people.
Originally posted by bezado Originally posted by SaintViktor Blizzard owns the mmo genre because there are probably the only ones who take the time to do it right. From marketing strategy to gameplay design and just purely making fun games Blizzard wether you like them or not does it right. 1. Complexity of the PC - From windows itself it is very hard to get a mmo wto work correctly with windows. You also have the complexity of the hardware where memory and video card issues are always a tough task at hand. Networking issues are probably one of the biggest reason why devs can't nail down the lag issue. I'm confused to what your saying here. PC isn't all that more complex than a console system of today, a PS3 is a PC so is an Xbox 360 and so on. How is it hard to get an MMO to work with windows, explain this cause if this was truth then why are there literally hundreds of MMO's on the PC that are working? Networking and lag, what MMO are you talking of, most people who experience lag in an MMO have poor latency issues or have no lag at all but have video lag due to crap PC's. I don't think anything in your #1 is a concern for why, but I respect your opinion.
I was kind of puzzled at that comment too. I have to agree with bezado here, if you are running xp it might get a little hairy and even then it is pretty fool proof. But anything with Vista sp3 and up is almost automated nowadays. I think win7 pretty much fixes itself (from my experience) in a way that is easy enough for anyone to do. i.e. click on fix button to fix things. Gone are the days of formatting and reinstalling your win98 OS every 6 months or assigning IRQ numbers to devices.
The mmo genre is just a fat bloated pig wallowing in a cage of cash. Each different company pig wants into the cage to wallow in their own shit. Right now Blizzard is the big pig in the cage and every other company wants their time inside. It used to be SOE that had the cage to themselves.
Thats why every mmo sucks ass and has sucked ass and will continue to suck ass. Games are no longer made to be incredible alternate realities to adventure in and experience a world full of fantasy like eq1 before SoL, old DAoC, UO, Nexustk, and others. Hell even WoW wasn't to awful when it first launched. People get a taste of money and they go fucking insane. These mmo companies would sell their souls to any big time boy like Atari, Activision, or EA for a taste.
Its sad but it isnt going to change anytime soon. All of you and me and anyone else who shares this sentiment has to just learn to let go and adapt because nothing you say or do is going to change jack shit.
Learn to enjoy playing an mmo alone in your own personal story and only seeing other players inside of a city all standing afk at a bank and be happy.
Que up for your random dungeons that instantly teleport you there and match you up with other people that you never have to talk and zerg your way mindlessly through some virtual landscape you never even look at or care to know why its there for some gear to lord over those who havent gotten that yet.
R.I.P MMORPGS
Hello MSPRPGS
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
I dont think one can explain the success of WoW with a single reason. It was many factors, including:
- Massive Advertisement (it was WoW here and WoW there all over all magazines for months)
- Good name of the company (Blizzard just had a big success with Diablo 2)
- Low hardware requirements, could be played by anyone
- Good learning curve (the "easy to play, hard to master" principle)
- Non-elitist approach (game was more mainstream and less hardcore than other MMOs)
But people like me, who never got what the heck is supposed to be so great about Diablo 2 (then again I never got the idea behind Tetris either), and who got turned off by WoWs ugly comic style graphics etc, didnt felt the urge to play it.
Simply because people whine and the quit because it doesnt have wow features. Take a look at mmo's like FFXI, ultima, eve they all lost subs to wow because players were not to reliant on other people to get through content. People left FFXI because they couldnt solo it was to hard for them to figure out.
A lot of players have the mentallity of "i want it now" this is why cash shops became popular, FTP became popular and why other game like D&DO, LOTR etc have converted to the cash shop FTP genre. While the majority of players are giving these publishers money, we will never see a quality mmo come to the stage. Even Wow turned crap due to the publishers bowing down to players "I want this" attitude. Dueling 2 handed weapons ffs. and thats just the start. While the gaming community keeps handing over their cash to publishers via cash shops and whining that the game is to hard to play and can we have this because wow have it, then we will never see a decent quality mmo. Because at the end of the day publishers are only in it for the money.
I'll add my own reason. In a single player game, a competent gamer can eventually succeed most of the time (games like Demon Souls can diaf). This is not true for MMOs due to the forced-multiplayer aspect that almost every one of them has at endgame. IMO, the biggest flaw with MMOs today is that they allow for plenty of viable playstyles until the level cap, and then only cater to certain ones afterwards for meaningful progress.
Look at one of Wow's most recent changes; allowing for soloers to get raid-quality loot without forcing them down the 'raid-or-die" path. Roughly 40% of MMO players prefer to solo most of the time, yet the endgame always screws them over.
I can say that every single MMO I've ever enjoyed enough to get to the level cap, I eventually quit because of the raid-or-die philosphy. I'm not looking to do away with raids, I think that would be bad for the genre, as clearly lots of players like to raid. I do not understand why just about every one of them has this narrow vision for their endgame though, and I think that that is a major factor in MMOs decline. Just give us some MMOs that have an alternate path at the level cap. Make it long and challenging, but make it exist.
Comments
I get your reasoning but I've got to disagree with you on PC gaming (in general). I think its as strong as its been since the late 90s.
I don't think the problem is with existing PC gamers going to consoles. I think we have more console gamers coming to PCs as gaming computers & computer games become cheaper (Steam + F2P MMORPGs)
Consoles ARE becoming more PC Like with all the media center functionality & tv / movie streaming capability.....but the dynamics that determine which sort of gamers game on which devices are still the same. PC gamers are generally more sophisticated gamers that have more time / resources for games. Console gamers are typically casual gamer types that play in short cycles.
So my theory is that PC MMORPGs are having to "dumb down" their content and game play because they are trying to hold on to a gamer audience that previously enjoyed game dynamics related to console gaming (casual gaming).
This becomes a slippery slope for MMORPGs because the more casual your audience is....the more types of media & entertainment your game will have to compete with. For example, I'd venture to say that a game like EVE has less farmville gamers as World of Warcraft (as a percentage of population). As a result, EVE has to spend less time working in game elements (that may contradict with its original intent) that appeal to casual entertainment media than World of Warcraft does.
I don't think they've failed at all. They have gone in a direction that I am not particularly happy with, so I can respond to that instead.
1. Light death penalties
2. Soloability
3. Item dependency (treadmill)
4. Instances
5. Anonymity
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
based on title alone....can you name a non-PC mmo that succeeded?
There's basicaly just one reason for me: there's too much of the same
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
+1 - excellent post. Thanks for sharing that. I think you are close to the mark myself, and I bemoan the loss of community and team-orientation. I think it's tied very closely to the difference between "Single Player" and "Social Fun Space". You can draw a pretty clear line in the evolution of Everquest, for example, and see where they crossed over from "Social Fun Space" to "Single Player End Game Race"
This is an excellent point and I agree. In regards to Fallen Earth: The 2 reasons that made me quit are the LONG periods of darkness and no way to quickly travel from place to place. I mean - the long travel time to the next zone is fun the 1st time but after having to drive for 20 mins everytime I want to go somewhere (in the dark) just kills the game for me.
Every MMO I've played recently has failed in every way for me. Star Wars galaxies probably had one of the best ideas for overall game design and then completely screwed the pooch. How many MMO's have to fail before these wizards of smart realize they're doing it wrong?
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
MMO's releasing in the past few years have failed for several reasons... however the biggest reason in my opinion is this.
Lack of attempting to evolve the genre beyond what it has been since the day EQ launched, the only companies trying something different are indie developers without the funding or man-power to fully realize their vision.
If I had to make a list however of why MOST current and shortly to come MMOs fail the five reasons would be...
1. Lack of meaningful PvP
2. Tab-targeting combat
3. Themepark
4. Item grind
5. end game is nothing but raiding for better gear to raid better.
Full Sail University - Game Design
I agree with 2, 3 and 4. 1 has very little to do with anything, a game is a complex and monumental undertaking regardless of the platform. It's like having to choose between walking on hot coals or walking on glass. It's a major effort either way, so people are going to go where the money is, and MMOs are huge potential profits.
Also for 5, casual audiences are actually where the money currently is. Everytime I see people say this is the reason for failure, I'm mixed. On one hand I agree, games are incredibly easy and sometimes that invites the wrong kind of people in and also makes it harder to create a community. However, because they're so casual, more people are interested in playing, meaning money to be made and thus more interest in developers to make the games in the first place. So I guess you're half-and-half there. I'd rather not go back to the uber hardcore days of Ultima, or the days of camping a monster spawn in EQ, but I don't like how childishly easy and boring games are these days either. I'm hoping for GW2 to strike that balance.
Also for those talking about meaningful PvP, video games were hugely popular long before any of us got the chance to kill each other in them. The Street Fighters and Mortal Kombats came much later, and they don't come with the ability to gank. Meaningful PvP is a niche desire, that's not something that's going to get people rushing to play your game no matter how much you want it to be otherwise. PvP is something PvE'ers will try out ~later~, once they've had enough of the PvE content, but you gotta get them into your game first, and PvP is not how you're going to do that. The only way you're going to get PvP to truly matter on a larger scale in an MMO, is if FPSers suddenly decide to play RPGs (whee, acronyms!)
BTW, just something I noticed (and predict). With the amount of games going F2P or starting off that way, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually developers take a step back from MMOs. OP was right, the market is WAY oversaturated right now, but if you take out subscriptions, the potential for long-term profits is less set in stone. Sure you can set up an item mall and do expansions, but thanks to the advent of DLC you can do that with a console game, too. I think, soon (probably with the success of GW2, since its B2P) developers will realize this and we'll see them start to shy away from MMOs and ~hopefully~ go back to making decent single-player and Co-op games.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
6. End-game is the most there is to the game, developers invest most of their time in end-game and don't seem to even make an attempt to make the journey more enjoyable.
The lazy need for instant gratification demands of the community
The immature and selfish attitude of the community
The hostile and aggressive play environments created by the community
The short sighted blinkered narrow view of the community
The hypocritical buying patterns of the community
We have shit games because we buy shit games, which encourages them to make more shit games.
Sure, we might bitch and moan about them here, but the devs have followed the dollar and thats our fault.
Blaming anyone else is displaying a shocking lack of self awareness tbh.
Good comments, but I wanted to touch on the part about having the extra money and players in the MMORPG market being a good thing....
While there are more "Gamers" and money flowing through the genere......what good is it really when these additional gamers are crying to developers to make the MMORPGs more like their casual console experience? Or what good does having all this extra money flowing around the industry when the main Western AAA publishers won't fund anything that doesn't look, smell, and taste like World of Warcraft?
Yea...Bioware is dropping 400+ million dollars on MMORPG...sweet right? No, it's going to provide the same general game experience as World of Warcraft.....which is the same thing people have been playing for 7 years.
So all this extra attention that MMORPGs have gotten in the last 10 years has given us a new majority in the MMO playerbase that advocate for all things similar to their old casual gaming experience and money that is horded for massive projects that offer little innovation from what WOW was able to do waaaay back in 2004.
My to 5 reasons :
Stagnation : The designs and the innovative uses of the engines availible have become stagnant to the point where innovation was something that happen 10 years ago. When's the last time someone played a game and thought that's are really cool or interesting gameplay mechanic?
Consoles: While I'm not bashing them as a game platform , I am bashing the Devs for basically ignoring the PC market for the last almost 10 years now.The beauty of consoles was the ease to which you could develop to . The curse of consoles was the preception that PC gaming was dead and that consoles would replce PC's for all aspects of gaming. Developers designed games that would be great for consoles ( which of course console makers tried to encourage, because their profits were tied to the games on consoles ) , but didn't really work or port over very well to PC's. ( PC makers make zero from games ) It made sense, it was easy and predictible to make games for consoles, less piracy , larger audience.
Greed : Let's face it the optimal situtation is to grab a well know IP, glorify what you're going to do with it , release it and rake the cash in. It doesn't matter if the game is good or even content wise relatively passable. Just so long as the IP fanboi's defend and buy up what you're selling. ( The refrain of " it's a MMO they are never a finished product " will be the battle call. ) When an MMO is released with less content then a single player game ( average I think is 40 hours ) you know it's a cash grab.
Learning Curve: Use to be it would take the entire game to master your characters abilities or months to level . Now partly because of # 2 and 3 , it's far faster. That's not to say everyone always going to masters their character, but that a different topic. Why do I point to #2 and 3 , well it may be generational it may be because of how console players are conditioned to game. Depth is not a prerequisite for most console based games, niether is social interaction. While I'm certain that examples can be and will be brought forward to say this isn't the case, the same can be said of quite a few PC games. Point being that Developers have gotten away from challenging the player base , or relenting and trying to please the entire player base.
Players: I believe we're partially to blame . Why ? We buy the crap , we defend the crap , and basically keep giving companies sometimes more chances then they deserve. We also contribute , by whinning our asses off if we don't get our way , or something is to difficult. Instead of using our brains or social contact to find a solution. The player that treats an MMO as a single player game and wonders why he can't do all the content, and then whines about it. By lowering our expectations and accepting what's out there, we make the situtation worse.
We all know content is always a big issue with MMO's , but I think if they address the above the rest takes care of itself.
What bezado said on the first page is basically my view point as well. Very well thought out, more so than the OP.
Playing:
CS:S, Waiting to try out TOR.
Played: Sword of the New World, Infantryzone, Ragnarok Online,RF Online, Fury, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, Cosmic Rift....
Bad coding. There are many reasons that MMOs doesn't do as well as they should, everything from small world to antisocial dynamics. But the reason Blizzard still rules is because they have really good programmers and that is the minimum requirement for success.
EQ2 and Wow almost released at the same time and the difference is not really that big besides the fact that EQ2s engine is full of bugs and bad performance. If it were the other way around EQ2 would be the big game.
The reason GW have sold 7 million boxes even though it is a really low budget game is the same: it have great coding.
A game can't just survive on good coding but any game without it is doomed to be a small niche game or a failure.
Intro: disagree, Blizzard did a childhood game, WoW is like a WII.
1) Disagree, using PC is, from WinXP, reasonable easy. I use PC from DOS era, so... .p
2) Agree, there's no or very few creativity in MMOs. A lot of grinding games, with tons of dungeos (and the king is WoW) and few great games: DAoC, EVE and other 2 or 3.
3) Totally agree: there are a lot of MMO out there. This site game list is very, very, very long. Stop, no more new MMOs for some years, please! Grab your MMO and do it perfect (modern graphic for DAoC, better learning curve for ECE and so on). Do your MMO near perfection instead doing another crap game.
4) So and so. WoW broke social(ist?
) aspect with a "single player" mode from lvl 1 till cap level. I like to play alone some times but they are Massive Multiplayer games, not Alone Online Games with a chat. But it is a games or pklayers failure? IMHO players: if you want play with other do it, now!
5) So and so. Casual MMO can be nice for people that cannot spand a lot of time in order to play. We have a social life, after all: pizza, friends, girlfriends, sex, work, study and so on. So, for old players like me (near to 49) casual games can be, sometimes, nice. We haven't time for grinding or a lot of time for big dungeons so... BTW mostly "casual MMO" aren't casual. E.G.: WoW is a casual MMO until level cap. But at (65/75/85/100/etc) casual players or quit the game or become hardcore gamers: too many time to spent inside dungeobs is not for real casual players. "Wii us", lol.
Comclusion: totally agree, except "2002 tecnology". MMO producers and publishers need a lot of money, so they must do game for all, or mostly PC.
My blog about (no more)MMORPG Addicted - a bog about videogames, cinema, politics and other things (in Italian)
To go along with that thought, I think most games simply shouldn't be touched for 6 months to a year before any real analysis is made. They seem to require that time to flesh out the world and conquer technological hurdles in what is essentially an ongoing beta close to release. Usually due to the inability to hold off the bean counters for any longer.
People tend to play the beta and roll that over into a subscription only to be disappointed with the 'inevitable' problems. The vast amount of time even the average gamer devotes to an MMO makes me wonder why they tend to jump from game to game without letting them grow.
If blizzard was "doing it right", then you, me and all the other people out here bitching would instead be happilly playing WoW - the "done right" game. As we aren't, i would venture say to say that no, Blizzard isn't doing it right.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I believe that a great mmo would have:
the physics and movement mechanics of an action game, like DMC or older 3d action games
the level up system of either eden eternal, runes of magic, or ffxi.
customization options from either champions online or apb.
Quests like old style RPGs, yet determined by your actions, not a predetermined path.
Skills from healer, to tank, to dps, to heavy hitters, to magic damage dealers, to ranged weapon users
genres from steampunk, fantasy, apocolyptic, gothic (vampire and horror things), all mixed into a flowing world, as there are many ways to strategicly place each genre, while intermingling.
Fully customizable craft system kind of like minecraft, where its so easy a cave man can do it, yet so complex that you can make huge things to benefit like houses, and vehicles, and things.
A fully interactive world where objects move when you touch them, you can pick up things like champions online relative to your strength, and destroy walls and objects while including a respawn timer, long enough to maneuver through objects and leaving a path for a while, almost like spiderman's web that dissolves after a set time period.
All this with a fully operation auction house and economy would be the perfect mmo for most people.
I was kind of puzzled at that comment too. I have to agree with bezado here, if you are running xp it might get a little hairy and even then it is pretty fool proof. But anything with Vista sp3 and up is almost automated nowadays. I think win7 pretty much fixes itself (from my experience) in a way that is easy enough for anyone to do. i.e. click on fix button to fix things. Gone are the days of formatting and reinstalling your win98 OS every 6 months or assigning IRQ numbers to devices.
The mmo genre is just a fat bloated pig wallowing in a cage of cash. Each different company pig wants into the cage to wallow in their own shit. Right now Blizzard is the big pig in the cage and every other company wants their time inside. It used to be SOE that had the cage to themselves.
Thats why every mmo sucks ass and has sucked ass and will continue to suck ass. Games are no longer made to be incredible alternate realities to adventure in and experience a world full of fantasy like eq1 before SoL, old DAoC, UO, Nexustk, and others. Hell even WoW wasn't to awful when it first launched. People get a taste of money and they go fucking insane. These mmo companies would sell their souls to any big time boy like Atari, Activision, or EA for a taste.
Its sad but it isnt going to change anytime soon. All of you and me and anyone else who shares this sentiment has to just learn to let go and adapt because nothing you say or do is going to change jack shit.
Learn to enjoy playing an mmo alone in your own personal story and only seeing other players inside of a city all standing afk at a bank and be happy.
Que up for your random dungeons that instantly teleport you there and match you up with other people that you never have to talk and zerg your way mindlessly through some virtual landscape you never even look at or care to know why its there for some gear to lord over those who havent gotten that yet.
R.I.P MMORPGS
Hello MSPRPGS
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
because no1 is doing MMORPG FOR PPL TO HAVE FUN, just FOR $$$$$$
GREED is the key in the new mmorpg generation
look at the last OFFLINE RPGs , how fun are........why? because no1 is looking to milk the players ....
now look at mmorpgs (other than rift imo) , all them want a piece of cake ....
Im waiting for GW2 because isnt a p2p model where devs only care about your money not if u are having fun.
I dont think one can explain the success of WoW with a single reason. It was many factors, including:
- Massive Advertisement (it was WoW here and WoW there all over all magazines for months)
- Good name of the company (Blizzard just had a big success with Diablo 2)
- Low hardware requirements, could be played by anyone
- Good learning curve (the "easy to play, hard to master" principle)
- Non-elitist approach (game was more mainstream and less hardcore than other MMOs)
But people like me, who never got what the heck is supposed to be so great about Diablo 2 (then again I never got the idea behind Tetris either), and who got turned off by WoWs ugly comic style graphics etc, didnt felt the urge to play it.
Simply because people whine and the quit because it doesnt have wow features. Take a look at mmo's like FFXI, ultima, eve they all lost subs to wow because players were not to reliant on other people to get through content. People left FFXI because they couldnt solo it was to hard for them to figure out.
A lot of players have the mentallity of "i want it now" this is why cash shops became popular, FTP became popular and why other game like D&DO, LOTR etc have converted to the cash shop FTP genre. While the majority of players are giving these publishers money, we will never see a quality mmo come to the stage. Even Wow turned crap due to the publishers bowing down to players "I want this" attitude. Dueling 2 handed weapons ffs. and thats just the start. While the gaming community keeps handing over their cash to publishers via cash shops and whining that the game is to hard to play and can we have this because wow have it, then we will never see a decent quality mmo. Because at the end of the day publishers are only in it for the money.
I'll add my own reason. In a single player game, a competent gamer can eventually succeed most of the time (games like Demon Souls can diaf). This is not true for MMOs due to the forced-multiplayer aspect that almost every one of them has at endgame. IMO, the biggest flaw with MMOs today is that they allow for plenty of viable playstyles until the level cap, and then only cater to certain ones afterwards for meaningful progress.
Look at one of Wow's most recent changes; allowing for soloers to get raid-quality loot without forcing them down the 'raid-or-die" path. Roughly 40% of MMO players prefer to solo most of the time, yet the endgame always screws them over.
I can say that every single MMO I've ever enjoyed enough to get to the level cap, I eventually quit because of the raid-or-die philosphy. I'm not looking to do away with raids, I think that would be bad for the genre, as clearly lots of players like to raid. I do not understand why just about every one of them has this narrow vision for their endgame though, and I think that that is a major factor in MMOs decline. Just give us some MMOs that have an alternate path at the level cap. Make it long and challenging, but make it exist.
Top 5 reasons... Na all i need is 3 letters.
S O E