Shafting? There is the free license if you're not going to charge for it.
They simply opened the possibility of a license that allows you to sell your apps, it's in fact finally opening this possibility, pity that this didn't happen while Capsuleer was still in development and looking for negotiations.
Well thanks for taking the time to maturely answer the question (yeah I'm referring to the big block of green text above). I just wonder if there's anyway around getting donations for hosting and still offering it as a free service, while not having to pay CCP.
I understand that side of the issues delimma, yet I also understand CCP's. It's really a catch 22 for those wh are taking donations it seems. Which is questionable and surely CCP would have to see that for what it is, donations do not equal to profit.
In the past CCP has tended to back out of issues that caused this much animosity. Maybe they'll compromise with them, the again maybe they won't.
I agree only those actually charging for the service should be charged by CCP.
donations don't equal profit.... so their not donating money then.... riiiiight...
Touché :P, this is an interesting question actually. As it's hard to say how much someone would bring in from donations. I know in the past certain services were brought down, due to illegal profit even though they were only taking "donations".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There is a big difference between designing an app and requiring a fee for it and having an app free of charge but adding a donate button so that grateful people can show their appreciation. Huge difference...
If they are wanting appreciation ask for a thank you. If they are looking for money they are wanting more than appreciation. They are looking for monetary gain. Aside from that ads alone generate enough to cover hosting etc. the donate button on top of the ads is to generate income that either avoids taxes or it's used to get around rules/regulations put in place to keep people from profiting off of things they shouldn't be. Movie sites do this alot as they aren't supposed to be charging. Charging = quick take down, a donation button instead of a fee keeps them around for a lot longer. They use ads to take care of hosting and what not and yes those sites see a great deal more bandwidth usage and ads still manage to pay the bills. Any donations beyond that is simply free money.
What I love is that there are those out there that require manditory donations before you can aquire/use w/e. Gotta love that "So they can show appreciation if they are grateful" button
If you disagree about ads being enough to cover your fees and you feel you need both the donations and the ads to keep going then you really need to find another hobby because you aren't doing it right.
And keep in mind thats what these people went in as, hobbyist. If they want to profit from it CCP was pretty damn fair about it. $99 a year, thats insanely low.
You remind me of the same kind of people that defended NGE in SWG. There is no reasoning with you. I personally dont play Eve anymore so I dont care much, so let's just wait and see what happens when/if this goes through.
Don't worry I feel and thought the same way about you lol, reason doesn't seem to be your forte. I no longer play EvE anymore either so doesn't make a huge difference to me. Just hate seeing people acting asinine. It's like making a shirt with Xmen on it and then "giving them away" to people that "donate", Disney would sue the hell out of you. CCP just said ... "Hey guys, how about just pay a cheap once a year licensing fee and we call it square?" So it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
I don't think people seem to realize what this means. Apps like Evemon and eft and websites that host kill boards, even if its just a corp one, will be effected by this. Most of that is paid for by the people making/hosting them and I'm fairly sure that almost all of them either break even or pay some of the costs out of their own pockets. The most common way to help pay the costs is asking for donations, whether it be RL cash or ISK. CCP is now saying that to keep doing this, they will have to pay $99 a year because in their eyes donations, even of ISK which CCP has always said has no RL value, is considered to be monotizing the EvE IP. A lot of the things that will be effected make the game playable because, lets face it, EvE as an actual GAME is fucking awful, which is the result of CCP's shitty design. I challenge anyone to find a 3rd party who has moneyhats from their work on EvE. This is just another in a series of bad moves CCP has made recently. I had alot of respect for them before but they're starting to circle the drain and threatening to join other MMO companies like soe and Cryptic at the bottom.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
[...]
So... this guy has an EVE IP Tattoo? I wonder were on his/her body.
Currently the pic of his tattoo is stored on Eve Files, the service which he has run for free for approximately 8 years, that gives people in eve somewhere to store their eve related files. If you take a look at whats on there, theres a whole lot of memories for the players of eve.
Eve Files is just one of the many free services he runs, and there are many other people like him offering their free services to improve Eve Online. Thats a lot of bandwidth that people have donated to the cause of making Eve a better than average game.
Yeah, it's sad to see CCP get bullied by the greedy. Was extremely reasonable. If you want to make money off of the apps pay $99 a year, you want to keep the apps free pay nothing. The response was a bunch of greedy bastards yelling and spewing crap about how greedy CCP is lol.
Hope they stick to there guns as it was a good plan of action and more than reasonable. It's a slippery slope if they back off. CCP needs to look at how other companies are handling it.
Look at other places you either have much higher licensing fees and or companies taking a percentage off the top lol. CCP cut developers wanting to charge a break, I hope this time to "iterate" on the idea gives them a chance to look at what they are doing and realize how low that $99 a year figure was.
CP should be paying people like Wolari and Chribba, not charging them. They provide vital services that CCP should have developed themselves.
Once again, these people aren't making a profit; they're spending their own money to help CCP and the community. If your mother came round and made you chicken soup when you were sick, would you charge her for using your electricity? According to you, she'd be a greedy freeloader.
If my mother charged me for the soup I shure as h*ll would charge her for not only electricity she would have to pay rent for the kitchen, assuming she brought her own ingredients otherwise I would charge her for that aswell.
And I would also add that I did not ask her to help me.
The original wording said that if you have a donate button or run ads to help with costs towards bandwidth you'd need a commercial licence.
They have since changed and explained some of their terms, and have withdrawn the "draft" proposal to think it over after garnering the players valuable insights. They are however "too busy" at the moment for any quick turnaround and it will probably take 2-3 weeks to see what the results of their "rethink" will be.
Edit: Wasn't sure wether the ingame isk was a commercial licence or not so i didnt include it.
I guess you missed the part where people like Wollari are giving the service to the EVE community for free.
They're not charging. You can use their service and not pay a god damb penny.
But in your mind they owe CCP money because?
For free you said I said if mymother would charge me for the soup.
Spotting the difference anywhere?
So answer the original question then, rather than one you made up because you prefer it.
I already did if you bothered ti actually read... and understand the content.
If someone makes an application to sell yes they should pay CCP for the rights to do so, that should be quite natural. In the original quote choose to take an example of someone doing something for free and compare that with a statement of someone
selling software.
You are no better yourself.
The intent was for anyone that does anything for free and then have to pay CCP for the rights to do so, was it?
So you are making an assumption, your example, your mother comes... bleh nvm.
-I think its ok that CCP charges people that wants to sell 'stuff' based on their IP.
-You are greedy that wants to charge your mom for making soup for free.
-If my mom would have charged me for the soup, I would charge her for rent of my kitchen.
If you think about it, what are some of the first things people are told when they join EvE (in random order, and by no means complete); get EvEMon, get EFT, do the tutorials. That exemplifies, to me, how important the development community is to the game, and good to see CCP stepping back and looking at how they can clear up any misunderstandings. We'll see what v2 brings....
Then perhaps for EVEMon and EFT, and for anything else deemed worthy, CCP should host the sites themselves, certify it all malware free, recoup the cost of doing so through advertisements and donations, and then the app creator keeps every cent of the rest. I'm not sure what the extra cost of setting all of this up would be, but since certain third party developers have contributed a great deal to the community, why shouldn't CCP partner with those developers in a limited fashion?
Everyone else would have to forgo donations or earn their way into a partnership, but surely they should at least be allowed to keep reasonable advertising to cover some of the cost of hosting. Donations are tricky, however, especially any donation that gets the user extra services.
As for this being an anti-malware campaign, I don't see how it can be, since only those developers making money will pay the fee. Is such a small fee from a limited number of people supposed to cover the cost of scrutinizing every app created for Eve? I don't see it.
If CCP could break even from hosting third party developers and if the developers could turn a profit from their best work, it would be great publicity for CCP. Look, a way to contribute to the community and get something in return, with CCP's approval!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Then perhaps for EVEMon and EFT, and for anything else deemed worthy, CCP should host the sites themselves, certify it all malware free, recoup the cost of doing so through advertisements and donations, and then the app creator keeps every cent of the rest. I'm not sure what the extra cost of setting all of this up would be, but since certain third party developers have contributed a great deal to the community, why shouldn't CCP partner with those developers in a limited fashion?
Everyone else would have to forgo donations or earn their way into a partnership, but surely they should at least be allowed to keep reasonable advertising to cover some of the cost of hosting. Donations are tricky, however, especially any donation that gets the user extra services.
As for this being an anti-malware campaign, I don't see how it can be, since only those developers making money will pay the fee. Is such a small fee from a limited number of people supposed to cover the cost of scrutinizing every app created for Eve? I don't see it.
If CCP could break even from hosting third party developers and if the developers could turn a profit from their best work, it would be great publicity for CCP. Look, a way to contribute to the community and get something in return, with CCP's approval!
Yeah, the "deemed worthy" is sorta a sticky wa to quantify it. I mean, what is worthy "x number of download" or some metric like that? Pretty much any metric can be inflated and then CCP has to deal with claims of fraud and/or favoritism regarding the apps they host.
Regarding CCPs approval, my thought is that exposing the API and encouraging its use has been implicit approval for some time now. Don't get me wrong, great if they want to make it explicit approval now. Just thought the first draft was worded in a way that seemed hostile to the developer community that has helped make the game great. Glad they are taking a step back to examine the idea and hopefully it gets refined in a manner that is beneficial to the 'non-profit dev'.
I agree with a lot of what Malcanis has already said on the topic. I don't think EvE has such an audience that this move makes a whole lot of sense and the execution of the initial announcement was poorly thought out (as evidenced by the ample feedback they got). I don't get the sense that the development community was engaged in this and I think that would have been beneficial. Even running it by the CSM would have been a positive move (that also does not appear to have happened). Additionally, when charging a fee for the privilege of developing utilities to enhance the game, a developer would be well within their right to expect better documentation or even an SDK. The best documentation seems to be fan made and, as best I can tell, an SDK is non-existent (though completely possible I just have not looked in the right place).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
The original wording said that if you have a donate button or run ads to help with costs towards bandwidth you'd need a commercial licence.
They have since changed and explained some of their terms, and have withdrawn the "draft" proposal to think it over after garnering the players valuable insights. They are however "too busy" at the moment for any quick turnaround and it will probably take 2-3 weeks to see what the results of their "rethink" will be.
Edit: Wasn't sure wether the ingame isk was a commercial licence or not so i didnt include it.
It was.
Anyway, as said, they've withdrawn the stupid proposal and hopefully they'll come back later with a properly worded, properly thought out proposal that they'll actually consult on, and everyone can be happy.
Comments
Shafting? There is the free license if you're not going to charge for it.
They simply opened the possibility of a license that allows you to sell your apps, it's in fact finally opening this possibility, pity that this didn't happen while Capsuleer was still in development and looking for negotiations.
Touché :P, this is an interesting question actually. As it's hard to say how much someone would bring in from donations. I know in the past certain services were brought down, due to illegal profit even though they were only taking "donations".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Don't worry I feel and thought the same way about you lol, reason doesn't seem to be your forte. I no longer play EvE anymore either so doesn't make a huge difference to me. Just hate seeing people acting asinine. It's like making a shirt with Xmen on it and then "giving them away" to people that "donate", Disney would sue the hell out of you. CCP just said ... "Hey guys, how about just pay a cheap once a year licensing fee and we call it square?" So it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
I don't think people seem to realize what this means. Apps like Evemon and eft and websites that host kill boards, even if its just a corp one, will be effected by this. Most of that is paid for by the people making/hosting them and I'm fairly sure that almost all of them either break even or pay some of the costs out of their own pockets. The most common way to help pay the costs is asking for donations, whether it be RL cash or ISK. CCP is now saying that to keep doing this, they will have to pay $99 a year because in their eyes donations, even of ISK which CCP has always said has no RL value, is considered to be monotizing the EvE IP. A lot of the things that will be effected make the game playable because, lets face it, EvE as an actual GAME is fucking awful, which is the result of CCP's shitty design. I challenge anyone to find a 3rd party who has moneyhats from their work on EvE. This is just another in a series of bad moves CCP has made recently. I had alot of respect for them before but they're starting to circle the drain and threatening to join other MMO companies like soe and Cryptic at the bottom.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
So... this guy has an EVE IP Tattoo? I wonder were on his/her body.
This whole thread in nutshell: "WAH I cant make money on someone elses product without them grabbing a slice off it!!!"
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/OTHER/Veldsparized2.jpg
Currently the pic of his tattoo is stored on Eve Files, the service which he has run for free for approximately 8 years, that gives people in eve somewhere to store their eve related files. If you take a look at whats on there, theres a whole lot of memories for the players of eve.
Eve Files is just one of the many free services he runs, and there are many other people like him offering their free services to improve Eve Online. Thats a lot of bandwidth that people have donated to the cause of making Eve a better than average game.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
If my mother charged me for the soup I shure as h*ll would charge her for not only electricity she would have to pay rent for the kitchen, assuming she brought her own ingredients otherwise I would charge her for that aswell.
And I would also add that I did not ask her to help me.
That is life, sorry.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I guess you missed the part where people like Wollari are giving the service to the EVE community for free.
They're not charging. You can use their service and not pay a god damb penny.
But in your mind they owe CCP money because?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
BestSigEver :P
Yes, even if you donate ISK in game to a website the provides a service out of game you'll need to buy a $99 license.
The original wording said that if you have a donate button or run ads to help with costs towards bandwidth you'd need a commercial licence.
They have since changed and explained some of their terms, and have withdrawn the "draft" proposal to think it over after garnering the players valuable insights. They are however "too busy" at the moment for any quick turnaround and it will probably take 2-3 weeks to see what the results of their "rethink" will be.
Edit: Wasn't sure wether the ingame isk was a commercial licence or not so i didnt include it.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
For free you said I said if mymother would charge me for the soup.
Spotting the difference anywhere?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
So answer the original question then, rather than one you made up because you prefer it.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I already did if you bothered ti actually read... and understand the content.
If someone makes an application to sell yes they should pay CCP for the rights to do so, that should be quite natural. In the original quote choose to take an example of someone doing something for free and compare that with a statement of someone
selling software.
You are no better yourself.
The intent was for anyone that does anything for free and then have to pay CCP for the rights to do so, was it?
So you are making an assumption, your example, your mother comes... bleh nvm.
-I think its ok that CCP charges people that wants to sell 'stuff' based on their IP.
-You are greedy that wants to charge your mom for making soup for free.
-If my mom would have charged me for the soup, I would charge her for rent of my kitchen.
-NO I SAID MY MOM MADE THE SOUP FOR FREE!
...omg
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Then perhaps for EVEMon and EFT, and for anything else deemed worthy, CCP should host the sites themselves, certify it all malware free, recoup the cost of doing so through advertisements and donations, and then the app creator keeps every cent of the rest. I'm not sure what the extra cost of setting all of this up would be, but since certain third party developers have contributed a great deal to the community, why shouldn't CCP partner with those developers in a limited fashion?
Everyone else would have to forgo donations or earn their way into a partnership, but surely they should at least be allowed to keep reasonable advertising to cover some of the cost of hosting. Donations are tricky, however, especially any donation that gets the user extra services.
As for this being an anti-malware campaign, I don't see how it can be, since only those developers making money will pay the fee. Is such a small fee from a limited number of people supposed to cover the cost of scrutinizing every app created for Eve? I don't see it.
If CCP could break even from hosting third party developers and if the developers could turn a profit from their best work, it would be great publicity for CCP. Look, a way to contribute to the community and get something in return, with CCP's approval!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Yeah, the "deemed worthy" is sorta a sticky wa to quantify it. I mean, what is worthy "x number of download" or some metric like that? Pretty much any metric can be inflated and then CCP has to deal with claims of fraud and/or favoritism regarding the apps they host.
Regarding CCPs approval, my thought is that exposing the API and encouraging its use has been implicit approval for some time now. Don't get me wrong, great if they want to make it explicit approval now. Just thought the first draft was worded in a way that seemed hostile to the developer community that has helped make the game great. Glad they are taking a step back to examine the idea and hopefully it gets refined in a manner that is beneficial to the 'non-profit dev'.
I agree with a lot of what Malcanis has already said on the topic. I don't think EvE has such an audience that this move makes a whole lot of sense and the execution of the initial announcement was poorly thought out (as evidenced by the ample feedback they got). I don't get the sense that the development community was engaged in this and I think that would have been beneficial. Even running it by the CSM would have been a positive move (that also does not appear to have happened). Additionally, when charging a fee for the privilege of developing utilities to enhance the game, a developer would be well within their right to expect better documentation or even an SDK. The best documentation seems to be fan made and, as best I can tell, an SDK is non-existent (though completely possible I just have not looked in the right place).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
It was.
Anyway, as said, they've withdrawn the stupid proposal and hopefully they'll come back later with a properly worded, properly thought out proposal that they'll actually consult on, and everyone can be happy.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Well now...that's just silly talk... :P
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence