This post should be all the proof we need that MMOs today suck and are worthless compared to the "1st Gen" MMOs. (UO, EQ, ect).
"PUG's are always a terror......" Really? Come on. PUGs used to be the main way to group, the main way to socialize in game. I spend 60% of my time in PUGs in Everquest.
Sure, me too, was a great time in EQ. But overall MMO gamer community has changed, both the newer part of the overall MMO playerbase as well as the older 'MMO dawners' of whom quite some have replaced their initial openmindedness and enthusiasm with jaded intolerance. PUG's are a terror - imo - in that you won't know if you've a good group or a bad one. Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not.
I'm sure that there are people who'll keep complaining about how in the past everything was better, enough proof of those complaints can be found at this site, but it seems to me that a lot of those have lost the ability to enjoy MMO gaming in general, or at least they haven't been able to change or broaden their taste to have fun with MMO's that aren't a copy or clone of those first MMO's.
Back in the old days, masochism was cool so you're supposed to enjoy the bad groups as much as the good ones! You and all the new kiddie gamers are RUINING THE GENRE.
Devs keep lowering group size to try to make content challenging but not impossible. That fine line is hard to walk the more players in a group.
I find it disgusting. An mmo should be about getting together with friends, making new ones, relaxing, and having a good time. Not overstressing about a boss encounter so that you can get a purple text item.
Eventually the max group size in an mmo will be 1, and you won't chat with other players because that's the only way to get rid of spam and unfriendliness, and the only thing that you can do in the game is mash button combat, because other gameplay alternatives are too hard and 'not enough interest'. I'm sure such an mmo will be a masterpiece. It's stroke of genius will be that you can play it even when your internet is down.
MMOs are sad, and their devs are a bunch of excuse makers who care more about creating a treadmill than putting a real investment into a game that has long lasting FUN.
I think its just about right. I remember 40man raids back in WoW as awesome, but ppl forget. You forget all that waiting and preparations. Definately more of that then actual playing, in raids that is.
Also for every MMO I pick up I find myself going more and more casual due to family, job and other RL commitments. I want to play with RL buds as much as possible. Filling the whole group with buds is ofc optimal.
I dunno just rambling really, atm I'm playing an mmo which has 3man dungeons as an alternative and its fine.
I can see how ppl with more playtime or whatever preference has another opinion and thats also fine ofc, just giving mine here Anywhere between 3 to 6 for a party works for me really.
I bet any amount of money they want people to pair up and use their companions alot more. Who knows, maybe companions create less lag. :P
That depends on the difficulty of instances. If they're easy, people will favor companions, if they're hard, people will certainly go for real players.
Devs keep lowering group size to try to make content challenging but not impossible. That fine line is hard to walk the more players in a group.
I find it disgusting. An mmo should be about getting together with friends, making new ones, relaxing, and having a good time. Not overstressing about a boss encounter so that you can get a purple text item.
Eventually the max group size in an mmo will be 1, and you won't chat with other players because that's the only way to get rid of spam and unfriendliness, and the only thing that you can do in the game is mash button combat, because other gameplay alternatives are too hard and 'not enough interest'. I'm sure such an mmo will be a masterpiece. It's stroke of genius will be that you can play it even when your internet is down.
MMOs are sad, and their devs are a bunch of excuse makers who care more about creating a treadmill than putting a real investment into a game that has long lasting FUN.
I'd just like to point out that this is a great example of the slippery slope fallacy
Assuming that just because they moved the group size down 1 or 2 people doesn't now suddenly mean that MMOs in general will keep moving in that direction. How many group sizes does TSW/GW2/WoDo/Tera have? do they all have lower group sizes? If they don't then this is hardly just lowering it to make it more solo friendly, but merely how they feel it works best for this game.
Edit to fix spelling
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
If SWToR is a soft ala light trinity game then the group size is prefect. For a hard trinity game, you would need more dps slots. Four also allows the story portion of the game to play easily.
I think the tanking/healing talents trees are disproportionately weighted against the DPS talent trees when you consider group sizes and slots to fit specific functions. I have a feeling there is going to be a lack of willing healers specifically, when compared to the mass amount of DPS players trying to get a group. Regardless of the leniency of the trinity system, I think every group is still going to need a tank and healing focused members, and there is gong to be an overabundance of DPSers because the group slots dedicated to them are not in parity with the amount of healers/tanks that will be available. This happens in every game, but I think it could be moreso of a problem with only 4 man groups. In my experience, 6 man groups is the sweet spot.
I used to think that 6-8 man groups were perfect, but having played TOR at Pax East, I really changed my toon, for one specific reason: I was using all the skills on my toolbar, and as the Smuggler/Healer it was nice to not feel trapped as just a healbot. Sure, I was "the" healer, but I also had to do some DPS, and some CC to keep myself useful.
That's something that I heard a lot of comments about that people liked. You had a primary role, but you were also needed to use other skills, which made the group experience less of a pigeon hole experience (except for the tank)
Dont get me wrong, you still have your main role, but there is enough there to make it more than just 3 or 4 skills. It made me feel useful, and not a bot, that was a huge, and surprising win to my point of view.
Originally posted by Kyleran I assume TOR"s design will be such that it accomodates a variety of group combo's and perhaps one won't even need a particular combo of tank/healer, perhaps 4 DPS can easily be just as successful as 4 healers?
That's a pretty bold assumption, and as someone who's opinion I always respect around here I'm curious why you would draw that conclusion?
Most of the folks who went thru the Taral V playthru (toned down as it was) were definitely into each class, and as the guy who was healing, I'll definitely say that if you tried it without a healer, I dont think you'd stand much of a chance. (Although healers and DPS can contribute in other ways.)
While I was using skills other than my heals, I dont see any way some of the encounters could have been survied without having at least a representative of an trinity archetype available.
With creative playthru would it be possible? I guess anything is possible, but I dont think it would be "intended".
I think I read a dev comment that other group combinations were possible, iirc he mentioned specifically that a group could get by without a healer or without a tank and that it would be harder, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Along the same line they said that having a group with 3 man and 1 Companion would be harder than 4 players.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I actually think that this was very well calculated as part of their effort to encourage people to group up. It's easier to get a group of 4 than it is 5. It's less of an ordeal, you get the group together that much faster. They're anticipating first time mmo gamers coming over from consoles, and they want to make the transition as easy as possible.
No 4 is not to small when your talking about another MMO that is giving everything to the players. When a games characters are so much more powerful then the content then you don't need a large group number to be effective. This is another one those MMORPG that pretty much walks the character through everything and gives you that feeling of got to have it now with omg it's sooo easy. So no 4 is not to small for this game.
No 4 is not to small when your talking about another MMO that is giving everything to the players. When a games characters are so much more powerful then the content then you don't need a large group number to be effective. This is another one those MMORPG that pretty much walks the character through everything and gives you that feeling of got to have it now with omg it's sooo easy. So no 4 is not to small for this game.
That's actually not true, players who actually played the game reported that the encounters were quite challenging where people a lot of times ended up with a health bar severely shrunk down in individual mob encounters already, more challenging than they found other MMO's like WoW for example. Encounters can be designed towards a 4 man group just as easily as they can be designed towards a 5 man group or 6 man group.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think I read a dev comment that other group combinations were possible, iirc he mentioned specifically that a group could get by without a healer or without a tank and that it would be harder, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Along the same line they said that having a group with 3 man and 1 Companion would be harder than 4 players.
think these are the quotes you are looking for mav :
I can't say for sure, but I think the underlying concern for many is that a group will need a healer-specced Advanced Class in order to succeed in many of the encounters, thereby limiting how we put groups together, which is also not any different than any other MMO on the market.
Can SWTOR innovation say that 4 Advanced Classes, none of whom are healer specced, will do just fine in most all encounters?
I'm betting not.
We cannot tell you definitively that a group without a healer will do just fine in 'most all' encounters.
However, groups without healers will be able to play the majority of the game's content and not feel like they are at a significant disadvantage, especially if they are careful in how they play.
Remember every class has access to an out of combat self-heal ability, as well as a revive ability (for use on fallen comrades). Be careful, and you'll stay alive.
Leaving aside for a moment the issue that content designed for multiple players could now potentially done with NPCs in place of them , I guess I am curious how increasing the importance of a companion by giving it a full player slot reconciles with the comments about leaving the pass/fail up to the players, and not have the companion be a deciding factor?
Unless maybe it's a nomenclature thing between Flashpoints vs. Raids? When James spoke about it previously, did he literally mean raids and warzones, but NOT level-up Flashpoints?
Thanks as always for your participation here
Currently, it is feasible to complete some of the lower level Flashpoints with two players and two Companions, if the players are really good. Three players plus one companion is more common and works for most as it is easier, but still definitely a bunch more challenging than four players only.
As mentioned, we're actively testing different options here, and haven't made final calls on companions in Flashpoints.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Not sure if BioWare have finalized how flash points are going to work with companions yet.
But if I can duo with my gf and only have 2 companions with us. We'll be quite happy.
Not really fun putting up with rude and immature people so we can enjoy the content. Had enough of that in WoW. It was kind of very refreshing to do that in Guild Wars.
It's easier and more flexible to form a group of 3-4 then forming groups of 5-6, that's also something to consider.
Keep in mind, the classes will be less strict trinity and more capable of multi-role functionality than in other MMO's.
I am deeply confused about your definition of "flexible".
A 6 man group can be 1 tank 1 healer 4 dds. Or it can be 1 tank 2 healers 3 dds. Or it can be 2 tank 2 healers 2 dds - low dps, but crazy good survivability.
In fact, it can also have 5 man groups if you cant find a 6th player, so that would be 1 tank 1 healer 3 dds, or 1 tank 2 healers 2 dds.
Also 4 man (1 tank 1 healer 2 dds) or 3 man (1 tank 1 healer 1 dd) is possible.
A 4 man group can be ... 1 tank 1 healer 2 dds. There is not much derivation from this possible. So there is MUCH less flexibility.
Originally posted by Kreedz
Sounds like you didnt bother to read much about SWTOR, [...]
Haha good one. I've been a regular SWTOR.COM/COMMUNITY reader since months.
Originally posted by Kreedz
[...] The idea is that while you can specialize in a tanking role or a healing role, you are still able to contribute to the fight in other areas. From the information that has been released thus far, Healers can still deal damage, although not as much as if they went into the advanced class suited for that, and same goes for the other roles.
The idea is that the whole group has to pitch in to come out victorious, they want to avoid situations where the Tank dies, so the healer gets blamed. Share the responsibility, share the victory... or blame.
LOL all you apparently read was the (extremely misleading) Wikipedia page.
Originally posted by Kreedz
EDIT: Also keep in mind that you can solo most content with your companions, You can go by yourself and your three companions (once youve unlocked them all) or you can partner with other players, 2 PC + 2 NPC, 3 PC + 1 NPC.
ROTFL Yeah, you're totally well informed about this game. Sorry, but nope. You cant have more than one companion at a time.
Originally posted by Dragon71UK
Don`t forget the companions. They are proberably taking them into consideration, and as there are healer and tank companions it isn`t as much of an issue.
Uh-hu.
Yeah companions might help, but I would massively prefer to have the tank and the healer being a real player.
While a healbot might still work okay-ish unless you get into real trouble, a tank should go first (and last, if you have a second tank as well). For that you need full control over the guy. I kind of doubt you can actually tell the game where your companion is going.
Originally posted by Kyleran
As a former DAOC player anything less than 8 people is too small.
I assume TOR"s design will be such that it accomodates a variety of group combo's and perhaps one won't even need a particular combo of tank/healer, perhaps 4 DPS can easily be just as successful as 4 healers?
Haha yeah, 8 sounds sweet. I would already be happy about 6 though.
No SWTOR wont be very flexible in that respect. You'll really need 1 tank 1 healer 2 dds. The "soft" trinity talk is about the fact that, of the 8 classes per side, 3 have an option to skill for full healer, and another 3 have an option to skill for full tank. Only 2 of the classes can only be DD and nothing else.
Originally posted by Alot
If the concept of soft trinity is to become a success in SW:TOR, than you'll need a majority of the SW:TOR players to think like you. Guilds will probably adapt the soft-trinity but in the case of PuGs, where the chance on failure is much higher, people will favor the setup that is easier to execute. And it is likely that having to execute two roles, even with major contribution to one of them and minor contribution to the other, is harder than completely focusing on one role.
Therefore Alot requests of you, MMO.Maverick, that you will write a comprehensive guide on how to create successful PuGs with the soft trinity!
Err ... the only thing thats "soft trinity" about SWTOR is that you can reskill, so if you have a class that can reskill for Tank or for Healer, you can reskill to that. It will still cost you ingame money and you'll have to rearrange your skill buttons and to be truely efficient in that task, you'll need gear for it.
Originally posted by Castillle
The only game I remember having massive raids before end game are F2P games and...and...and...and....and...
My first MMO, Lineage 2, has raids from level 40 or some such on. It was a real cultural shock when I found out about the "endgame" in Vanguard, and I still hate the concept of an "endgame". The game should start when you start playing, not when you reach the "endgame".
Originally posted by Baikal
4 Is the right size (from my point of view)
I used to think that 6-8 man groups were perfect, but having played TOR at Pax East, I really changed my toon, for one specific reason: I was using all the skills on my toolbar, and as the Smuggler/Healer it was nice to not feel trapped as just a healbot. Sure, I was "the" healer, but I also had to do some DPS, and some CC to keep myself useful.
That's something that I heard a lot of comments about that people liked. You had a primary role, but you were also needed to use other skills, which made the group experience less of a pigeon hole experience (except for the tank)
Dont get me wrong, you still have your main role, but there is enough there to make it more than just 3 or 4 skills. It made me feel useful, and not a bot, that was a huge, and surprising win to my point of view.
Err ... what does this have to do with the thread ? Vanguard has 6 man parties and all my healer characters had plenty things to do aside from healing, too. In fact the Blood Mage in Vanguard has nothing short amazing dps. And my Cleric had a lot of debuffs and an important group buff I could only keep up if attacking. My Shaman had so many debuffs, I usually couldnt put them all up before the mob died.
That is the general advantage of classbased games over skillbased games, but has no influence over group size.
Originally posted by morritz
I actually think that this was very well calculated as part of their effort to encourage people to group up. It's easier to get a group of 4 than it is 5. It's less of an ordeal, you get the group together that much faster. They're anticipating first time mmo gamers coming over from consoles, and they want to make the transition as easy as possible.
I really dont get why people insist that having larger groups means you can only have a group of that size.
I had plenty of 3 or even just 2 man groups in Vanguard, that has 6 man groups.
In Vanguard, you cant manage dungeons without having at least 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps, and of course you're much slower if you have only these three. Granted, there are some especially easy dungeons that could be soloed by a Dread Knight or maybe a Disciple (the two solist kings of Vanguard), but those are exceptions.
Also bear in mind that 4 is about the right number for the style of game. This isn't WoW it's sci fi, operations are more "military" in nature and to me 4 seems like the right size for a squad and 6 seems like too many. It's arguably more true to Star Wars as well - it was small groups who achieved things (like the rescue of Leia from the Death Star) for the most part. For me it just feels right.
well if you think about the fact that one jedi cant take down another npc and has to rely on a group to take out a boss, then it stands to reason that its not very realistic.
so the a whole idea of smaller groups is probably aimed towards makeing you feel a bit more powerful in game.
just think about it, you play a jedi. and you have to kill something, but you cant kill it unless you have other players with you!! this is just a rediculous concept to a real jedi.
now because this is a game and not indeed reality. and its also an mmo. the game developers have to atleast try and add an mmo component to your jedi abre wielding force useing all powerful experience without leaving other leaving the other classes out while at the same time trying to maintain your all powerful jedi/sith existance.
the result is 4 man groups.
i like the idea that you only need 4 people now to do instances. it adds a bit more importance on your individual role and it also makes the bosses seem less godly like they do in every single other game out there.
just think about it for a split second!!! your jedi knight and if you know jedi as well as i know jedi then you will also know that jedi are mystical beings who can predict things before they happen granting them god like abilities and an amazeing defencesive capability that many people in the starwars universe are simply boggled by.
this strange ability also allows them to predict their opponents meaning they can now plan attacks to thwart their opponents defencives to land home strikes all the time makeing the jedi seem all powerful and all skillful.. when infact its just the force.
so if you take that into account, how good would this game be if your all powerful jedi needed a group of other people to take down a base commander with a big gun and no force powers.
and according to biowares theatrical trailers, a jedi can easily fight another jedi and not require assitance, its rather balanced isnt it.
so thats why i think bioware are keeping groups small. to make you the individual feel more important and powerful and more heroic.
this is one of the reason i believe jedi should not be a starting class and something that should be unlocked later on through gameplay for all classes to explore.
dumming down jedi to the ability of the other classes just isnt very good at all. it takes that "wow!! he's a real jedi" essence out of the game.
playing jedi in this game wont be like being a jedi in kotor. because some dude with a blaster and trooper armour will be just as tough just as powerful and probably more deadly than you in pvp because he has a long range gun he has auto target and auto hit, he can shoot on the move without having to aim.. where as a jedi in this game has to chace the target down and get to melee distance before landing attacks that count. sure forces powers would work but the range will be toss compaired to a blaster rifle.
it really isnt hard to work out why they have opted for smaller groups
Comments
Back in the old days, masochism was cool so you're supposed to enjoy the bad groups as much as the good ones! You and all the new kiddie gamers are RUINING THE GENRE.
But, yeah, seriously. Your post is 100% right.
Devs keep lowering group size to try to make content challenging but not impossible. That fine line is hard to walk the more players in a group.
I find it disgusting. An mmo should be about getting together with friends, making new ones, relaxing, and having a good time. Not overstressing about a boss encounter so that you can get a purple text item.
Eventually the max group size in an mmo will be 1, and you won't chat with other players because that's the only way to get rid of spam and unfriendliness, and the only thing that you can do in the game is mash button combat, because other gameplay alternatives are too hard and 'not enough interest'. I'm sure such an mmo will be a masterpiece. It's stroke of genius will be that you can play it even when your internet is down.
MMOs are sad, and their devs are a bunch of excuse makers who care more about creating a treadmill than putting a real investment into a game that has long lasting FUN.
I bet any amount of money they want people to pair up and use their companions alot more. Who knows, maybe companions create less lag. :P
I think its just about right. I remember 40man raids back in WoW as awesome, but ppl forget. You forget all that waiting and preparations. Definately more of that then actual playing, in raids that is.
Also for every MMO I pick up I find myself going more and more casual due to family, job and other RL commitments. I want to play with RL buds as much as possible. Filling the whole group with buds is ofc optimal.
I dunno just rambling really, atm I'm playing an mmo which has 3man dungeons as an alternative and its fine.
I can see how ppl with more playtime or whatever preference has another opinion and thats also fine ofc, just giving mine here
Anywhere between 3 to 6 for a party works for me really.
That depends on the difficulty of instances. If they're easy, people will favor companions, if they're hard, people will certainly go for real players.
I'd just like to point out that this is a great example of the slippery slope fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Assuming that just because they moved the group size down 1 or 2 people doesn't now suddenly mean that MMOs in general will keep moving in that direction. How many group sizes does TSW/GW2/WoDo/Tera have? do they all have lower group sizes? If they don't then this is hardly just lowering it to make it more solo friendly, but merely how they feel it works best for this game.
Edit to fix spelling
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
If SWToR is a soft ala light trinity game then the group size is prefect. For a hard trinity game, you would need more dps slots. Four also allows the story portion of the game to play easily.
4 Is the right size (from my point of view)
I used to think that 6-8 man groups were perfect, but having played TOR at Pax East, I really changed my toon, for one specific reason: I was using all the skills on my toolbar, and as the Smuggler/Healer it was nice to not feel trapped as just a healbot. Sure, I was "the" healer, but I also had to do some DPS, and some CC to keep myself useful.
That's something that I heard a lot of comments about that people liked. You had a primary role, but you were also needed to use other skills, which made the group experience less of a pigeon hole experience (except for the tank)
Dont get me wrong, you still have your main role, but there is enough there to make it more than just 3 or 4 skills. It made me feel useful, and not a bot, that was a huge, and surprising win to my point of view.
That's a pretty bold assumption, and as someone who's opinion I always respect around here I'm curious why you would draw that conclusion?
Most of the folks who went thru the Taral V playthru (toned down as it was) were definitely into each class, and as the guy who was healing, I'll definitely say that if you tried it without a healer, I dont think you'd stand much of a chance. (Although healers and DPS can contribute in other ways.)
While I was using skills other than my heals, I dont see any way some of the encounters could have been survied without having at least a representative of an trinity archetype available.
With creative playthru would it be possible? I guess anything is possible, but I dont think it would be "intended".
I think I read a dev comment that other group combinations were possible, iirc he mentioned specifically that a group could get by without a healer or without a tank and that it would be harder, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Along the same line they said that having a group with 3 man and 1 Companion would be harder than 4 players.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I actually think that this was very well calculated as part of their effort to encourage people to group up. It's easier to get a group of 4 than it is 5. It's less of an ordeal, you get the group together that much faster. They're anticipating first time mmo gamers coming over from consoles, and they want to make the transition as easy as possible.
No 4 is not to small when your talking about another MMO that is giving everything to the players. When a games characters are so much more powerful then the content then you don't need a large group number to be effective. This is another one those MMORPG that pretty much walks the character through everything and gives you that feeling of got to have it now with omg it's sooo easy. So no 4 is not to small for this game.
Yes, 4 people are too few. I prefer games that allow 6, like EQ2.
But it also depends on how the combat mechanics really work. But to me 4 is not good.
That's actually not true, players who actually played the game reported that the encounters were quite challenging where people a lot of times ended up with a health bar severely shrunk down in individual mob encounters already, more challenging than they found other MMO's like WoW for example. Encounters can be designed towards a 4 man group just as easily as they can be designed towards a 5 man group or 6 man group.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
think these are the quotes you are looking for mav
:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5738193#post5738193
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
03.16.2011 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgar
I can't say for sure, but I think the underlying concern for many is that a group will need a healer-specced Advanced Class in order to succeed in many of the encounters, thereby limiting how we put groups together, which is also not any different than any other MMO on the market.
Can SWTOR innovation say that 4 Advanced Classes, none of whom are healer specced, will do just fine in most all encounters?
I'm betting not.
We cannot tell you definitively that a group without a healer will do just fine in 'most all' encounters.
However, groups without healers will be able to play the majority of the game's content and not feel like they are at a significant disadvantage, especially if they are careful in how they play.
Remember every class has access to an out of combat self-heal ability, as well as a revive ability (for use on fallen comrades). Be careful, and you'll stay alive.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5996161#post5996161
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
04.07.2011 , 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethality
Hi Georg,
Leaving aside for a moment the issue that content designed for multiple players could now potentially done with NPCs in place of them , I guess I am curious how increasing the importance of a companion by giving it a full player slot reconciles with the comments about leaving the pass/fail up to the players, and not have the companion be a deciding factor?
Unless maybe it's a nomenclature thing between Flashpoints vs. Raids? When James spoke about it previously, did he literally mean raids and warzones, but NOT level-up Flashpoints?
Thanks as always for your participation here
Currently, it is feasible to complete some of the lower level Flashpoints with two players and two Companions, if the players are really good. Three players plus one companion is more common and works for most as it is easier, but still definitely a bunch more challenging than four players only.
As mentioned, we're actively testing different options here, and haven't made final calls on companions in Flashpoints.
That's quite some quick searching skills you have, Gaou, thanks
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think four is a perfect number.
Not sure if BioWare have finalized how flash points are going to work with companions yet.
But if I can duo with my gf and only have 2 companions with us. We'll be quite happy.
Not really fun putting up with rude and immature people so we can enjoy the content. Had enough of that in WoW. It was kind of very refreshing to do that in Guild Wars.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I am deeply confused about your definition of "flexible".
A 6 man group can be 1 tank 1 healer 4 dds. Or it can be 1 tank 2 healers 3 dds. Or it can be 2 tank 2 healers 2 dds - low dps, but crazy good survivability.
In fact, it can also have 5 man groups if you cant find a 6th player, so that would be 1 tank 1 healer 3 dds, or 1 tank 2 healers 2 dds.
Also 4 man (1 tank 1 healer 2 dds) or 3 man (1 tank 1 healer 1 dd) is possible.
A 4 man group can be ... 1 tank 1 healer 2 dds. There is not much derivation from this possible. So there is MUCH less flexibility.
Haha good one. I've been a regular SWTOR.COM/COMMUNITY reader since months.
LOL all you apparently read was the (extremely misleading) Wikipedia page.
ROTFL Yeah, you're totally well informed about this game. Sorry, but nope. You cant have more than one companion at a time.
Uh-hu.
Yeah companions might help, but I would massively prefer to have the tank and the healer being a real player.
While a healbot might still work okay-ish unless you get into real trouble, a tank should go first (and last, if you have a second tank as well). For that you need full control over the guy. I kind of doubt you can actually tell the game where your companion is going.
Haha yeah, 8 sounds sweet. I would already be happy about 6 though.
No SWTOR wont be very flexible in that respect. You'll really need 1 tank 1 healer 2 dds. The "soft" trinity talk is about the fact that, of the 8 classes per side, 3 have an option to skill for full healer, and another 3 have an option to skill for full tank. Only 2 of the classes can only be DD and nothing else.
Err ... the only thing thats "soft trinity" about SWTOR is that you can reskill, so if you have a class that can reskill for Tank or for Healer, you can reskill to that. It will still cost you ingame money and you'll have to rearrange your skill buttons and to be truely efficient in that task, you'll need gear for it.
My first MMO, Lineage 2, has raids from level 40 or some such on. It was a real cultural shock when I found out about the "endgame" in Vanguard, and I still hate the concept of an "endgame". The game should start when you start playing, not when you reach the "endgame".
Err ... what does this have to do with the thread ? Vanguard has 6 man parties and all my healer characters had plenty things to do aside from healing, too. In fact the Blood Mage in Vanguard has nothing short amazing dps. And my Cleric had a lot of debuffs and an important group buff I could only keep up if attacking. My Shaman had so many debuffs, I usually couldnt put them all up before the mob died.
That is the general advantage of classbased games over skillbased games, but has no influence over group size.
I really dont get why people insist that having larger groups means you can only have a group of that size.
I had plenty of 3 or even just 2 man groups in Vanguard, that has 6 man groups.
In Vanguard, you cant manage dungeons without having at least 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps, and of course you're much slower if you have only these three. Granted, there are some especially easy dungeons that could be soloed by a Dread Knight or maybe a Disciple (the two solist kings of Vanguard), but those are exceptions.
4 people in a Party is Bioware Standard.
BIOWARE ALWAYS MAKES THE SAME GAME, WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THIS?!
Geeze....
Also bear in mind that 4 is about the right number for the style of game. This isn't WoW it's sci fi, operations are more "military" in nature and to me 4 seems like the right size for a squad and 6 seems like too many. It's arguably more true to Star Wars as well - it was small groups who achieved things (like the rescue of Leia from the Death Star) for the most part. For me it just feels right.
Squads in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 were 3 people - you and 2 others.
It really does not matter how you feel about it, or what size party any other MMO has or had.
If group content in SW:ToR is being balanced for a party of 4 players, then a party of 4 players is perfect.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The BG games have 6, Kotor 3 and NWN had a pary of 2 that incresed to 3 with HOTU so I'm not sure what he's talking about if I'm honest.
well if you think about the fact that one jedi cant take down another npc and has to rely on a group to take out a boss, then it stands to reason that its not very realistic.
so the a whole idea of smaller groups is probably aimed towards makeing you feel a bit more powerful in game.
just think about it, you play a jedi. and you have to kill something, but you cant kill it unless you have other players with you!! this is just a rediculous concept to a real jedi.
now because this is a game and not indeed reality. and its also an mmo. the game developers have to atleast try and add an mmo component to your jedi abre wielding force useing all powerful experience without leaving other leaving the other classes out while at the same time trying to maintain your all powerful jedi/sith existance.
the result is 4 man groups.
i like the idea that you only need 4 people now to do instances. it adds a bit more importance on your individual role and it also makes the bosses seem less godly like they do in every single other game out there.
just think about it for a split second!!! your jedi knight and if you know jedi as well as i know jedi then you will also know that jedi are mystical beings who can predict things before they happen granting them god like abilities and an amazeing defencesive capability that many people in the starwars universe are simply boggled by.
this strange ability also allows them to predict their opponents meaning they can now plan attacks to thwart their opponents defencives to land home strikes all the time makeing the jedi seem all powerful and all skillful.. when infact its just the force.
so if you take that into account, how good would this game be if your all powerful jedi needed a group of other people to take down a base commander with a big gun and no force powers.
and according to biowares theatrical trailers, a jedi can easily fight another jedi and not require assitance, its rather balanced isnt it.
so thats why i think bioware are keeping groups small. to make you the individual feel more important and powerful and more heroic.
this is one of the reason i believe jedi should not be a starting class and something that should be unlocked later on through gameplay for all classes to explore.
dumming down jedi to the ability of the other classes just isnt very good at all. it takes that "wow!! he's a real jedi" essence out of the game.
playing jedi in this game wont be like being a jedi in kotor. because some dude with a blaster and trooper armour will be just as tough just as powerful and probably more deadly than you in pvp because he has a long range gun he has auto target and auto hit, he can shoot on the move without having to aim.. where as a jedi in this game has to chace the target down and get to melee distance before landing attacks that count. sure forces powers would work but the range will be toss compaired to a blaster rifle.
it really isnt hard to work out why they have opted for smaller groups