Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is this illegal ? Pay to play mmo model
Kooshdin
Member Posts: 217
I was wondering, there is SWTOR coming out soon and it is another pay to play model. For the last few years, basically any pay to play mmo has diminshed in player base and mmo experience after the first month. This means mmo companies that use the pay to play model are in fact promoting a failed category of mmo game because it has been seen that most of the mmo pay to play games have seemed like a massive failure after the first month of play .
Take age of conan, final fantasy 14, rift, All points bulletin as ive played those games. Each one of those games forced players to pay for the game plus keep paying each month when the game pretty much diminishes in player base after the first month. Every one of these games failed pretty much the same way as each other. People played from beta, first month kicks in, people starting abusing the chat for a month compalining about its faults, then the forums get ramsacked and people post why they leaving etc and then also post that the servers are lowering in population. Causing chaos and nothing but problems for the game.
These games did not work out as they should because the pay to play model doesnt work for mmos ! For mmo companies to keep forcing its customers to pay for a mmo then pay monthly subscription as well, when the game will 8/10 times will fail after the first month ? Surely this is an illegal method for mmo gaming when its been proven for the last few years that the pay to play model does not benefit the long term mmo user !
The mmo buyer buys the mmo for the long run not the short run and for every one of the long term users, they ae forced to pay £35-£50 upfront on hype when the model used for the games, will most surely fail for the players ? I mean look at rift. I joined it fom the 7 day headstart and becuase of the pay to play model , im getting a certain type of experience from the gamers themselves due to the pay to play models failure at working. It should be illegal for mmos to continue using this model to make mmos, because most of the mmos that have come out in the last few years have all pretty much been classed as a fail game After the first month !!!!
Is there nobody in the mmo world willing to stand up for the player base and force companies to take a different payment model, so that the mmo games we are all buying dont fail after the first month ? I mean i can pay £35 for call of duty modern warfare, or assassins creed, and for those games i can continue playing them at least as a single player game after the first month ? Why should gamers be tricked by the mmo industry into a game that uses pay to play model when it totally fails to work after the first month for most mmos ? Im sure game developers are aware of the fact there player base will greatly diminish after the first month because of the pay to play model !!!
If there is trading standards for buying stuff in the real world, is there not some company that deals with the legality of mmo payment models ? Right now millions of gullible gamers keep paying for a fresh mmo experience only to find massive problems within the first month in game and on the forums. Game companies know this is happening but avoid dealing with the issue . This is wrong, nobody a few months from now should be fooled by whats going to happen with SWTOR ! Its going to follow the same route as all the games i listed above and im about 85% sure that this is going to be true because of the pay to play model. everyone is just hoooknig on to the hype that bioware are forcing you to read on there game updates section. It doesnt matter how many professions they show you or how many cool things there is to do, because as soon as you in game and played uit for first month, very simillar things to what just happened in rift is going to happen for swtor- pretty much guaranteed . Am i right ? Its just the hype of something special that keeps you paying up front for a new game and i knpow all those who dont want a simillar type of experience as you got from rift or apb etc, want this to be true of swtor ?
It is true that SWTOR will fail because of the proof of the pay to play model ! its illegal right to keep promoting this model to its customerds when it doesnt actually work most of the time for new mmos ? The truth is your going to pay £35-£50 for SWTOR and all youll get is about one month of decent play before hell kicsk in.
You dont get this with the guild wars model or the perfect world international model or now new forsaken world model. These games dont play the same way as pay to play ! In my experience free to play and pay for game and no monthly sub but a shop, these all work mostly good for the mmo gaming experience for each game. It is not the same one bit for pay to play !!
***Illegal model for mmos based on past results.
Pay to play model - Pay up front, pay monthly to keep playing Result : most times the game diminishes in mmo standads after first month causing problems for loyal gamers to the game
***Legal models for mmo games that prove that the games are actually working as mmos should.
Free to play model..You can play forever for free, and also buy stuff from a shop in game with real cahs to improve gameplay Result : Works very well, communities last but developers lose out from the initial cash burst from buying the game causing us to get half hearted ftp mmo games mostly.
Pay up front, no monthly sub, shop in game for certian items and pay for expansions model Result: Works as intended, player base continues after first month, games are good quality at outset due to instant cash boosh from gamers paying for the initial download of game.
Is this not important ? I mean soon SWTOR will be out and all you sucked in by the game companies hype will pay up front and will most possibly be unsubbing after the first month when the game gets ruined by negativity on forums and ingame players spoiling the game in chat. Nobody likes the pay to play model its also illegal isnt it if the game doesnt work out well after the first month and it shows from past mmo games that have simillar results after the first month, it is illegal to continue forcing players to pay £35-£50 for a one month gaming expeirence that is far from great ?
Am I right ?
Comments
This should maybe go in the general thread section as well, not just the SWTOR section ?
Am I allowed to do this ?
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
How is it illegal? They are providing a service with access to their creation which you chose to pay for and are free to cancel if is no longer of value to you.
This implies that anything with a subscription is illegal, tha's just odd.
Yes but i shouldnt be forced to cancel after a month or so in game because of the player base diminishing causing grouping for quests to fail and the mmo experience to fail.
Did you play rift at all ?
It was one of the better themepark games but during the first month or so it went sideways as far as the way things went on the forums and in game too. People just jump on board for a month and leave before they have to pay the first month subscription. It happened in finakl fantasy 14 too, peopel played to the max for first month then left before payingfor second month causing empty servers. It happened in apb but in apb the game was cancelled after 50 odd days ! We paifd for thatgame to play it ongoing for months not just one month ?
This to me isd not fair for mmo players that buy the game for at least 3 months playing ? The people who are actually wanting to play the mmo long term are not getting a good expeirence from the pay to play model.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
No, making duplicate threads isn't allowed. I'll move this one to The Pub for open discussion there.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
What im trying to dsay is there is two mmo payment models that work for the mmo experience.
There is one payment model that causes major problems for the mmo epxperience in eacgh game after the first month, this is the pay to play games !!!
We should not be forced by companies to continue paying upfront for a game as well as a sub if this model fails and there are two other payment models that work well for the game developersd and gamers alike
Thats my point and i think its illegal for companies insisting on me paying for a game up front with a sub option when most times im leaving after the first month or second.
i am one of the players that comes from the era where you could play mmos for years at a time and still get something out of them. I dont feel i should be forced to pay upfront for SWTOr when i knowe for afact compaliniers are going to ruin the game experience and the forums too after about 2 weeks of the game going live.
SWTOR is going to go down this road im pretty sure. Im not wanting it too im wanting the pay to play model to work but currently with the gmaer base of today, it causes problems for the mmo experiece in the mmo game
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
The games you mentioned didn't fail because of the payment model. They just weren't good/fun enough to keep the innitial playerbase they got because of overhyping their new game. Many would say they didn't fail at all, but it's just that WoW somehow set a whole new standard for mmorpgs and if they don't meet this completely ridiculous standard it's dubbed 'fail'.
No one is forcing anyone to buy or sub to these games, so how can you even think of calling it 'illegal'. Just wait a month (or 2 or 3) after release before you buy an mmorpg if you're so concerned with diminishing playerbases.
Thanks
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
They don't force you to pay anything. If you want to play the game, you buy the box with the first month included. If you want to keep playing, you pay to continue playing.
If you like the game, then pay for it. If you don't like the game, then you don't have to. There is nothing illegal about them charging access to their servers, on their game, that they provide service, support, updates, etc. to on a regular basis.
SOME models are sketchy because theres a line that you have to draw on what you are willing to pay for and what you aren't. Most games don't have enough content to last the free month. That will not be the problem with SWTOR. To put it simply, its not illegal, and it should never be. Is it smart? Not always. In SWTORs case, I think its a very smart move, at least initially if they are hoping to recoup costs within their first few months.
This should be in general, not SWTOR though, especially because they noted that SWTOR would have the standard payment model with a "twist" whatever that means... it may give more options for alternate payment methods.
Stop buying every single game that comes out, and maybe they will make one worth sticking with. You have only yourself to blame.
MMO's better keep B2P or P2P models or I'm quitting
I absolutely hate Free to play Cash shop games.
Yes but, you actually are not being forced to do anything.
tl:dr but I did skim a bit. No it's not illegal but I'm not sure that's the word you're really looking for. Perhaps ethical or unethical are the terms you're looking for? Some might consider that debateble but it all boils down to your choice to continue playing. If they close all the servers then you might have a point, but the 50 bucks are so that people initially spend to play the game isn't worth taking anyone to court over. Ultimately the gamer only risks losing a little while the developer risks losing a great deal.
You're also making too many assumptions, the pay to play model has it's failures yes, but there are enough successes around to countradict your assumption that all pay to play games fail.
It is perfectly legal for someone to charge you monthly for a slap in the face. If you want to pay to get slapped in the fact that is YOUR business. Why would you want the government to step in and prevent people from selling a product?
If everyone felt the way you did, no one would pay, and they would develope a different payment model. Unfortunately people continue to pay for garbage so they continue to produce and sell it.
A recent south park episode had a great clip recently that I still laugh about every time It comes to mind...
Jim Cary has buncha shits in his room... and at the end they say "Whatever you'll pay to come see it..."
THAT is what's wrong with this undustry, people are willing to pay for shit! Stop paying for SHIT and they'll stop making it!
Are you going to buy into the fact that SWTOR is going to be a good gaming experience from the start ? What im expecting to happen is people will enjoy it for 2 weeks, then the feeling that its simillar to other themepark games is going to set in , then the complainiers are going to come after about 2 weeks from the start and start noticing tons of issues with the game that the normal game player harldy pays attention too. Then they goinmg to ruin the forums with complaints galore trying to fail the game to the max. All because they have to pay monthly for the game giving them more rights to it dso to speak.
This is what ive experienced for lots of mmo games that are the pay to play model. I am expecting it to happen as well for SWTOR only because ti is the pay to play model. Now note this, ive NEVER experienced that happening with the free to play model, or the guild wars model ? Why is this ?
I think there is nothing wrong with the actual games themselves, i think its the pay to play model causing gamers to think they have more rights to a game because they have to pay every month to keep playing.
I dont want to play another mmo game with these peopel in my face trying to ruin a gaming expeirence im having much joy in.
Rift was awesome for me from start to finish but i was at the same time getting non stop complaining and whining to the max on the forums with people trying every single attack on the game possible to ensure it was a fail game. In my opinion these people feel because they pay every month, then they have more rights than they do for the free to play games
Free to play games generally are fun ongoing all the time !! Its a completely different experience which is more like the experience i used to get from mmos in the early 2000's
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
If they go cash shop I will simple refuse to play, In every cash shop based mmo it's so corrupted pay X to buy Y then in a month or 2 they do bigger and better X. So always get the super elitists buying max lvl stuff constantly owning face in all aspects of pvp.
A good example of a super greedy cash shop game is Runes Of Magic, the pvp is horrid because of a option to buy "eliteness".
For the sake of arguement here Sub based games have mostly failed because the sheer lack of bad launchs or unprepared push out greedy corperations forcing a pre-mature launch. Lack of quality patches and a ear on the community is also a factor.
Hey we got endgame......sure ya do ( coughs at rift )
No matter what you do, people will eat up content usually faster than it can be created, But for a average gamer not a meta gamer a game can release content at a fairly steady rate and keep the majority happy.
Will SWTOR be a sucess or fail, I cannot say yet but it will seriously depend on end game content and crafting/space/pvp to keep people thrilled to keep playing. I do hope they have a fairly longer leveling curve than say WAR. Something to prevent the 1 week max level people.
/like
The problem is that companies are coming out with new pay to play games and offering us the chance to experience something new something DIFFERENT ! Have you ever had a bar of chocolate sit in front of you on your desk and you notice it but decide nah im not going to buy into that ? Itsa the same with new mmo experiences, you get something sort ofnew to play with which is always good. Anything new is good and for me and many others we find it hard to resist, i mean you never know it might actually be a good experience for a change !
Im going to try resist buying it especially because i have a problem listening to lots of text in a game. i prefer to just do the gaming part, that iswhat i like but i bet when the game comes out ill be tmepted to fuck just like as if a chocolate bar was in front of my face eatingt away at me till i eat it
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
Sounds to me like you just want to whine a bit.
Pay to play games come with the first month of play free. If "during the first month or so it went sideways" then don’t pay for the second month. Along the same lines, no one forced you to cancel. You made the decision based on game play, and preconceived notions on how the game world should be. Play the game or don’t, pay for it or don’t. I can’t see how you’re rationalizing your argument.
If you are going to use examples of other games to try and 'prove' your point, make sure you have your facts straight. FFXIV has never charged their players. They stated long before the first month was over that the game would be free for a second month, and it kept going until they announced it would be free until the game was fixed.
Point: it’s our choice as consumers to buy a subscription game. We know full well going into it what to expect. Sometimes games don’t live up to our expectations, so stop playing it and move on. If you don’t want to be "suckered" then wait until a trial mode of the game comes out. Wait for the reviews.
Most of all, please stop clogging the forums with this useless drivel.
Pay to Play subscription model for MMO's should be illegal because a few companies rush crap games to market to make a buck?
It's not the pay to play sub model that's the problem, because if it was you would see failure in every MMO out there. Even EQ, EVE, yes even WOW.
The issues you point to have nothing to do with Pay to Play models, but the fact that WOW turned the MMO game market on it's head in 2004. Every company since has bean counters that want WOW's success, and thus they make a WOW chaser. Add this to the fact that MMO's take 5-6 years to develop, and voila. We now are in the me too MMO market genre where games that started years ago to catch the wave of WOW are comming to market, but the burnout on that style of game is starting to show.
Add in that many game developers are trying to cash in on the console gamers, Console style games are simpler mentality. nothing bad about them, so take a deep breath now. Most console games are geared for a pick up, run through, return to gamestop, and get another. Look at DCUO most will agree it's not holding MMO players, nor doing well on the PC side, but seems to be keeping the PS3 crowd entertained.
I know it's an odd concept, but MMO's are entertainment. We pay for the ability to play so we can enjoy what we do. By your logic of Pay to play being illegal, as you already bought the box. Is popcorn free at the movies? I mean you already paid for the film.
You bought your cell phone, why must you pay the monthly service after?
Of course, there always is the Free to Play micro transaction games you could goto.
See the trend?
MMO's are a service, many game developers are now aware of the negative feel a WOW clone brings, sadly it will be 4-6 years before we see games built to adress this new change.
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
one of the fun aspects to a free to play game is to try and play it to max level without buying anything from the shop ! Its like an added element you never got in the old mmos ! I am playing a few free to play mmos at present and so far ive not needed to buy anything. In perfect world international though i incresed my inventory and also bought a mount which i ended up not using much and also i bought things that allowed me to chat to the world ! You dont have to do it to get to max level, you can try play without buying stuff and end up getting a gaming experience for free !
As for the buying for being better at pvp, my advise is if you dont want to pay the shop any money, go about in groups and beat those in pvp who pay to be superior,. That what i just said to you is using your initiative, and also is an example of what mmo gaming is! It involves multiple people joined together to defeat an object. How annoyed are the people paying for pvp buffs when groups of people start taking them down instead of single players. MMO RULE HERE : go about in groups to beat those who use pvp buffs !
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
Illegal? You both believe that P2P games will fail and making them should be illegal?
A company have the right to choose how much to charge it's customers and how they should pay it. As a customer we have the right to buy from someone else.
To force companies to charge the same ammount in the same way is not a good idea.
And Rift is not doing so badly, it have kept a lot more players than games like WAR and AoC.
If anything should be illegal (and it shouldn't but it is worse than this) it is saying that your game is free but then charge for everything you can get away with, like quests and being able to use items.
If anything in TORs economical model will lead to it's ruin it would be because it looks like it will have both a monthly fee and a RMT shop, one of the reason many people prefer P2P is because they don't have RMT shops, or at least they didn''t until 2 years ago.
We are all capable of voting with our wallets, if a game is too expensive or not good enough we will punish it for it ourselves. We don't need the goverment to tell us exactly what to do and what games to play. If that is what you want I hear North Korea is nice this time of year, they even tell you how your hair should look.
true and my answer to that is to be faithful to myself from now on and not buy into the pay to play model , which means disciplining myself against games that are pay to play. That is my answer after what you said.
I am currently playing forsaken world and its pretty awesome. I think if i stay faithful to the fre to play games and the guild wars type games, then im in the right place at the right time.
Thanks
Oh i dont mind the cash shops in free to play games because i personally have never been tempted to pay tons of money out for them. If i like a game though i sometimes feel obliged to buy something because the games so good :P
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
If a company offers an MMO and tells customers their MMO will be around for many years while knowing full well they plan to recoup the cost of development and a small profit, then shut down, it's unethical.
Good luck getting a court to take a look into the legality of it. The devs would have to be Enron stupid for that to happen. Maybe if you had an email from the head dev to marketing saying, "Tell everyone it's solid and will be around for years with millions of subscribers, but in reality, we plan on hyping it up, releasing it, selling the box for $50, then closing down shop two months later." That might get you into a courtroom.
Also, the cost to develop some of these big-hype MMOs is incredibly high, so I don't see why it would be more profitable to try to profit mainly from box sales with every intention of shutting down shortly thereafter. Why not spend that money to make an MMO that will bring in massive box sales and also keep people playing, and paying, for many years to come? And if a company tries to do just that and fails, it isn't the company's fault.
Oh, and one more thing. A lot of gamers hold grudges, share information, and actually know the individual names involved in the creation of their MMOs. Just changing the company logo won't work. Getting a bad rep with the MMO community is a very bad idea.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
From legal point of view, P2P MMOs are more legal. It's simply 1. lisencing the game, 2. agreeing to provide the servers. Both are quite simple agreements.
With microtransaction MMOs you are sold things like higher level character (exp boost potion), but you don't own that character you're bying abilities to. Your character or the game mechanics might get changed, or the game could even be shut down. The purchases you make create some kind of obligation for the seller to provide you access to that character you don't own, otherwise they would be so unbalanced they wouldn't be legally valid, but it's very unclear just what rights you as the buyer have.
With P2P MMOs you can determine the full cost of the game before you do anything. This makes it possible to compare (the costs of) P2P MMOs with each other. With microtransaction MMOs it's impossible to really make a comparison without in-depth research before you buy. It's generally principle that the prices of products sold to customer should be comparable, microtransaction MMOs fail that completely.
If items in microtransaction MMOs are ever determined to have real-life value that would make 99% of those games gambling, and I'm sure the game providers don't have lisences required for that.
This is pretty simple, Taking Rift as an example , I pay £30 for a game and get a free month thrown in. If I get what I would regard is enough entertainment for that £30 quid then it is Fine. After that, I pay a £10 a month to get another months entertainment, I can stop at anytime (which is pretty much what happened) Equally, I played Lotr for a bit using the ftp model, and then had the choice to buy things on an adhoc basis or pay a regular £10 sub - its 6 and half a dozen. I ended up making 1 single payment then 1 monthly payment.
Compare this to a single player game where on average (although dont hold me to it) you pay £30-40 a game and typically get 20-40 hours entertainment. Very similar payment models.
There is the issue where a company (oh lets say blizz) does not actually invest that £10 a month, but the same applies to f2p, if they dont invest the f2p monies its the same issue. Personally If the next mmorg that comes is a winner then I wil subscribe as it is better for the developer to have a regular payment plan in place.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D