There is no open pvp because pvpers in general tend to ruin a good thing.
I'd say quite the opposite. People in games with open PvP, or on open PvP servers, whining and throwing hissy fits when they die in PvP tend to ruin a good thing (great PvP). It's like watching some idiot go walking into a warzone in Iraq, and then freaking out because they got shot at. WTF did you expect?
PvPers cant ruin your PvE games without open PvP, but yet the PvErs insist on trying to ruin the PvPgames and get them turned into Carebear Land Online throwing fits in chat and on forums insisting that the game needs to be changed because theyre tired of getting PvPed.
First ask yourself what mmos had a working pvp? Personally i have experienced Daoc, SWG, EvE. Some others with pvp but not working...
Each of this 3 games i named has rules to the pvp and not mindless open ffa pvp - bounty has nothing to do with it, pvp needs rules that make it an option, give oportunity to participate WHEN players be in the mood to do so, have either pvp zones or a working pvp-flag system.
With or without bounty, mindless all over the world anytime anarcho pvp will never have sucess outside its ~25k mmo niche.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Each of this 3 games i named has rules to the pvp and not mindless open ffa pvp - bounty has nothing to do with it, pvp needs rules that make it an option, give oportunity to participate WHEN players be in the mood to do so, have either pvp zones or a working pvp-flag system.
With or without bounty, mindless all over the world anytime anarcho pvp will never have sucess outside its ~25k mmo niche.
Those games had PVP rules designed around the fact that a working unexploitable Bounty System was never invented. If a working Bounty System was invented way back in the 90's UO never would have come up with Trammel and PVP in SWG and EVE would be radically different.
There is no open pvp because pvpers in general tend to ruin a good thing.
I'd say quite the opposite. People in games with open PvP, or on open PvP servers, whining and throwing hissy fits when they die in PvP tend to ruin a good thing (great PvP). It's like watching some idiot go walking into a warzone in Iraq, and then freaking out because they got shot at. WTF did you expect?
PvPers cant ruin your PvE games without open PvP, but yet the PvErs insist on trying to ruin the PvPgames and get them turned into Carebear Land Online throwing fits in chat and on forums insisting that the game needs to be changed because theyre tired of getting PvPed.
The only analogy to the real world and US soldiers in Iraq is the Hasan Akbar case where Akbar tossed 4 grenades into a tents full of sleeping soldiers. You want to simulate that? You want a murder simulation?
He was sentenced to death BTW. What a fun game, for sickos.
I was going post but these two nicely sumed up what I was going to suggest.
One question, though, Is the bounty hunter system only for retribution/ getting back at a criminal player? Or is it to create a mechanic that would be fun for some types of players? Not all bounties would be have to be placed on placed on criminals. They could be done to a rival guild/faction that wants to pay for more manpower.
The entire idea of a Bounty System is, "The player is the best judge of who is being a griefer," so the biggest jerk in the game gets the highest bounty. You can't code what player behavior is the most repulsive and what player behavior is roleplaying. The first time I was griefed was in UO, someone stole my ore I was dropping on the ground cause it was too heavy. That pissed me off, the guy was being a jerk, he could have grinded more ore himself instead of griefing other players. The first time I was PK'ed was in UO, some guy chased me across the map with an army of his minions, that was funny.
If there were a working Bounty System I would have placed a bounty on the guy that stole my ore, not the guy who PK'ed me, cauase the guy who stole my ore was a bigger jerk.
It's a sandbox feature: Player made content
If someone wants to roleplay a pirate they will have to use some tact when they rob someone, or at least not kill their victim, maybe even become honorable pirates (a romantic usually unhistorical understanding of piracy, but were talking about a video game). But only if there is a bounty system that punishes guys who just run around and PK other players, "I PWNED JOO!"
You could at least have come with an idea, because rambling about the fact non unexploitable system have been found just won't lead you anywhere. We know non have been set; but its not because its hard to find, its because dev teams doesn't really care about this, they are not even making mmos where such feature would be good to have. Look at it honestly most if not all mmos now are just "nicely" warped combat engines, nothing else, they don't give a damn about any role playing feature. Why would they even care about bounty? They would if they wanted you know, its not like its very hard to create one as you seam to think.
Now if you think it can fix random pking, i'm really not sure.
The way i find to be unexploitable is only if the bounty hunter is choosen by the victim and only him, he probably won't give the job the the pker friend or alt would he? You can also take the amount of the bounty plus something more from the pk pocket and voila an other unexploitable system, so even if the pk hunt himself he still loose.
They are many ways to make unexploitable systems, its not like its impossible to make, its easy to come with one and then fix it as some problems comes in. As i said mmos aren't about role playing and making realitic game world, only Uo and 1 or 2 more have that, maybe Eve and SWG. But that's it really. The rest of the mmo just doesn't give a shit about those kind of stuff, its sad but its just the whole true.
Anti social weirdos? those are games dude, people fight and kill each other in many games, they are not anti social weirdos for this. The only thing that make them that is because you mix up virtual reality with real life. Now if some dev want to make some super realistic mmo, ye sure they could make such systems.
Also i think having solid bounty system would be nice, at least in those a bit more mmorpg that the rest of the crap, that have nothing rpg into them.
The larger problem is that being hunted and killed is not a negative thing. Bounties work in real life / realistic stories because being caught by hunters (or killed in the capture attempt) is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. Bounties don't work in MMOs because dying is not bad at all, particularly if you value exciting PvP combat more than the items that you stand to lose.
Putting a bounty on an enemy's head is not a permanent solution in the way that hiring a RL hitman would be permanent. It's not even a temporary solution, nor is it even a little bit of a deterrant. So what's the point of them?
That remind me that some new korean game are getting some jail feature. I don't know what they are up to in korea with this but i'm pretty sure they found a good alternative if they implement this in a lot of new gen mmos. Maybe OP you can look at this and tell us how it work there
The larger problem is that being hunted and killed is not a negative thing. Bounties work in real life / realistic stories because being caught by hunters (or killed in the capture attempt) is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. Bounties don't work in MMOs because dying is not bad at all, particularly if you value exciting PvP combat more than the items that you stand to lose.
Putting a bounty on an enemy's head is not a permanent solution in the way that hiring a RL hitman would be permanent. It's not even a temporary solution, nor is it even a little bit of a deterrant. So what's the point of them?
Easy to resolve.
Make being killed while you have a bounty on your head a negative thing. Stat loss, skill loss, exp loss. People don't like these things.
When UO implemented stat loss for "reds," so many of them cried about it. But in my opinion, it was not severe enough.
You could at least have come with an idea, because rambling about ....
All I can come up with is 1 character cannot collect bounty on same character more than once, but this effectiveness depends on how many characters a player can create per account or how long the grind time it is to get to max level to gank lowbies.
The larger problem is that being hunted and killed is not a negative thing. Bounties work in real life / realistic stories because being caught by hunters (or killed in the capture attempt) is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. Bounties don't work in MMOs because dying is not bad at all, particularly if you value exciting PvP combat more than the items that you stand to lose.
Putting a bounty on an enemy's head is not a permanent solution in the way that hiring a RL hitman would be permanent. It's not even a temporary solution, nor is it even a little bit of a deterrant. So what's the point of them?
Easy to resolve.
Make being killed while you have a bounty on your head a negative thing. Stat loss, skill loss, exp loss. People don't like these things.
When UO implemented stat loss for "reds," so many of them cried about it. But in my opinion, it was not severe enough.
PvE-centric players don't like these things. PvP-centric players—especially griefers—don't care nearly as much. If they die and lose exp once in a while, that's the standard price for their lifestyle. Character progression is a means to an end, and that end is killin'.
And yes, you could push the penalties further and further until you're teetering at the precipice overlooking the final permadeath penalty, but what would be the point? A factionless PvP game where you explode into juicy gibs if you dare to attack another player? The appeal of an FFA PvP world is that you can walk up to anyone and attack them; why punish people for doing exactly that? That's the feature that people called for in this thread. In essence, they want a system that will recognize which killings are justice and which killings are for grief's sake, and punish exclusively those that are grief kills. No such system can enforce that because a.) any such system is exploitable, and (more importantly) b.) nobody can define "griefing".
What if I kill you because you insulted me? What if I kill you because you killed my friend? ...because you refuse to comply with an unreasonable demand? ...because of your appearance or your name? ...because of your reputation? ...because someone asked (or ordered, or paid) me to kill you? There's no right answer to these questions. A system that punishes people for doing the "wrong" kind of killing would have to take a stance on right vs. wrong, and that just prompts the question... if they can decide that certain kinds of killing are bad enough to be severely punishable so that they never happen, why wouldn't the developers just go ahead and make those kinds of killings a bannable offense to make sure that they're never committed?
Scenario A) You come across a bridge and another player is dressed in black armor, the player says, "None shall pass!" *trumphet music* You try to pass anyways and get PK'ed. You tell other players about the black knight and a crowd forms around him, the black night kills 20 more players the next 2 hours until 3 players gang up and kill the black knight.
Scenario You're in Eve Online traveling through gates, get webbed and PK'ed. Nobody says anything to you, you just get PKed.
Scenario C) Your grinding mobs, you're down to 1/4th health, you're about to kill the last mob in a group and someone comes up from behind and PK's you.
What bounty would you, the victim, place on A,B,C? For me it would be:
A) none
medium
C) high
Only a player can determine what's griefing and what's viable PK'ing, and only a working unexploitable Bounty System can provide that.
the one thing i loved about uo was the reputation system (even though it didnt work, atleast when i played before t2a). if u wanted to put a bounty on someone that person would take a hit to there skills if they were a murderer and if it was just some random jerk that say, stole your ore on your miner u could just hop on your murderer and destroy him. i get so sick of games with 2 factions and no matter what u cant kill people in your own faction. i dont know how many times ive had some jerk follow me around to annoy the hell out of me and kill the mobs or whatever i was trying to get just because they wanted to be a jerk. it lets all the annoying brats get away with being annoying brats without repercussions. it also adds a whole new level of pain when u have easy to aquire items and full loot on a person.also even if the bounty systems dont work atleast u could just tell your friends to KOS "insert name of player" and anytime they see that person they get whacked again. it really cuts down on the jerks in mmo's and makes people be friendlier. on a second note in games like eve where u have corps and those corps have aliiances u could make a bounty system that only works for people within your alliance and then the money would go to the corp coffers instead of the individual person.
Scenario A) You come across a bridge and another player is dressed in black armor, the player says, "None shall pass!" *trumphet music* You try to pass anyways and get PK'ed. You tell other players about the black knight and a crowd forms around him, the black night kills 20 more players the next 2 hours until 3 players gang up and kill the black knight.
Scenario You're in Eve Online traveling through gates, get webbed and PK'ed. Nobody says anything to you, you just get PKed.
Scenario C) Your grinding mobs, you're down to 1/4th health, you're about to kill the last mob in a group and someone comes up from behind and PK's you.
What bounty would you, the victim, place on A,B,C? For me it would be:
A) none
medium
C) high
Only a player can determine what's griefing and what's viable PK'ing, and only a working unexploitable Bounty System can provide that.
Realistically, my answers for this would be:
A) high
none
C) none
If I've just been killed and looted, do I really want to lose more money on placing a bounty? What possible motivations could I have? Well, there's revenge, but if I'm not doing the killing myself and if I don't even see it happen, the catharsis is totally gone. A little popup window that says "Gormio killed Jakkripper and collected your 50000 gp bounty!" is going to feel about as rewarding as earning an achievement for jumping off a cliff. It doesn't benefit me in any way and it's painful.
What other motivations could I have? There's the desire to make the PKer reconsider their actions, and discourage them from ever doing it again. Along a similar line, the possibility of having a bounty puts on you acts as a deterrent; maybe they won't kill anybody in the first place just knowing that there are consequences. But both of these ignore the fact that you're playing an open PvP game where the whole point (arguably) is to grow stronger and fight other people. By placing a bounty on someone you dislike, you're paying people to go find him and play the game with him. What kind of punishment is that?! The PvE equivalent would be paying money to have someone "arrested" and thrown into a jail instance... where they can team up with other prisoners, break out, fight bosses and get the best drops in the game. It's a reward, not a punishment. And you're paying big money to give it to them.
So I wouldn't spend a dime giving gankers what they want—notoriety and more opponents. But I might spare some cash to put a bounty on someone like that black knight for RP reasons if I felt pleased with the interaction that I had with them and if I felt that they would appreciate being hunted down.
Scenario A) You come across a bridge and another player is dressed in black armor, the player says, "None shall pass!" *trumphet music* You try to pass anyways and get PK'ed. You tell other players about the black knight and a crowd forms around him, the black night kills 20 more players the next 2 hours until 3 players gang up and kill the black knight.
Scenario You're in Eve Online traveling through gates, get webbed and PK'ed. Nobody says anything to you, you just get PKed.
Scenario C) Your grinding mobs, you're down to 1/4th health, you're about to kill the last mob in a group and someone comes up from behind and PK's you.
What bounty would you, the victim, place on A,B,C? For me it would be:
A) none
medium
C) high
Only a player can determine what's griefing and what's viable PK'ing, and only a working unexploitable Bounty System can provide that.
Realistically, my answers for this would be:
A) high
none
C) none
If I've just been killed and looted, do I really want to lose more money on placing a bounty? What possible motivations could I have? Well, there's revenge, but if I'm not doing the killing myself and if I don't even see it happen, the catharsis is totally gone. A little popup window that says "Gormio killed Jakkripper and collected your 50000 gp bounty!" is going to feel about as rewarding as earning an achievement for jumping off a cliff. It doesn't benefit me in any way and it's painful.
What other motivations could I have? There's the desire to make the PKer reconsider their actions, and discourage them from ever doing it again. Along a similar line, the possibility of having a bounty puts on you acts as a deterrent; maybe they won't kill anybody in the first place just knowing that there are consequences. But both of these ignore the fact that you're playing an open PvP game where the whole point (arguably) is to grow stronger and fight other people. By placing a bounty on someone you dislike, you're paying people to go find him and play the game with him. What kind of punishment is that?! The PvE equivalent would be paying money to have someone "arrested" and thrown into a jail instance... where they can team up with other prisoners, break out, fight bosses and get the best drops in the game. It's a reward, not a punishment. And you're paying big money to give it to them.
So I wouldn't spend a dime giving gankers what they want—notoriety and more opponents. But I might spare some cash to put a bounty on someone like that black knight for RP reasons if I felt pleased with the interaction that I had with them and if I felt that they would appreciate being hunted down.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
First, I don't think that bounty systems are necessarily the best deterrent for PKing, but since this thread is about bounty systems, I will focus on them.
Earlier on this this thread I described a system where PKers would suffer stat/exp/skill loss upon death proportional to (and greater than) the bounty placed on them.
For example, if somene placed a bounty of 5000gp on a PKer and it takes 5 hours of grinding to make 5000gp, then the PKer would suffer 10-15 "grinding hours worth" of stat/exp/skill loss. If the bounty was 10000gp, they would suffer 20-30 hours worth.
If I were a PKer, I would be outraged/depressed when I found out that someone put a bounty on me that's going to result in 10 hours of grinding when I die. I would also try to avoid death as much as possible.
Also, in order to prevent poorer players from being taken advantage of, there could be a default (fairly low) bounty that the "state" puts on murderers when a player is killed. This bounty would carry the same penalties with it, but the player wouldn't have to spend any money if they don't want to or aren't able to.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy.
"How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen.
"how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
If it's an exploitable bounty system then the PK'er will be happy.
If it's an unexploitable bounty system then it would be bad for the PK'er.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy.
"How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen.
"how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
It will not happen because the people on the receiving end of perma death are not gonna want to play the game. So if the bounty system uses perma death as its punishment it will force the targets of the bounty out of the game.
As you decrease the penalty, the bounty system will get weaker. If players decide that the penalty is trivial they will stop using the bounty system. The trick is to decide on a penalty that will be harsh enough to make the system usefull.
Earlier on this this thread I described a system where PKers would suffer stat/exp/skill loss upon death proportional to (and greater than) the bounty placed on them.
For example, if somene placed a bounty of 5000gp on a PKer and it takes 5 hours of grinding to make 5000gp, then the PKer would suffer 10-15 "grinding hours worth" of stat/exp/skill loss. If the bounty was 10000gp, they would suffer 20-30 hours worth.
It is true, this would have a major effect and would not be trivial. However, it breaks a pretty big rule about open PvP: Might makes Right.
As I am led to understand, the big draw of PvP-centric sandbox MMORPGs is that you can use the power that you have gained to assert yourself, whether that's your power as an individual (your level, skills, and stats, your equipment and items, your knowledge of the game) or your power as a member of a large organization with a lot of firepower at their disposal. Someone was complaining earlier that faction-based PvP is no good because you inevitably run into some jerk from your own faction and you want to show him his place by killing him, but you cannot. That's the appeal of open PvP. Gain power, gain influence, and people will not be able to cross you without consequences.
A bounty system where money spent directly translates to stats/exp lost—doesn't matter that it's an eventual loss; everybody dies sooner or later—has the unfortunate effect of replacing Might makes Right with Wealth makes Right. Suddenly the threat of being chopped in half by a glowing axe pales in comparison to being statlossed back to your newb days by someone with a lot of disposable income. And I think that anyone posting on these forums can understand that no game these days is safe from unauthorized RMT, meaning that anyone with some real cash to throw around can buy the only kind of power that matters in that game: in-game currency. We're talking about the worst kind of Pay-To-Win here, the kind where you directly cause harm to a player character by pointing your wallet at them and pulling the trigger.
Unless you can stop bounties from adversely affecting people who don't deserve it (good luck with that; see my previous post), you've got to worry about that too. And if you can confidently pick out the people who deserve punishment and then make sure that bounties punish only them, well then you can safely dodge the whole bounty system and use nothing but built-in punishments. Not to mention the obvious workaround of putting a million on someone's head and then having your friend score the killing blow and hand you the money back... just off the top of my head.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone: -revenge -deterrance In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance. If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective. In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy. "How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen. "how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
It will not happen because the people on the receiving end of perma death are not gonna want to play the game. So if the bounty system uses perma death as its punishment it will force the targets of the bounty out of the game. As you decrease the penalty, the bounty system will get weaker. If players decide that the penalty is trivial they will stop using the bounty system. The trick is to decide on a penalty that will be harsh enough to make the system usefull.
If you don't want the PvP to be truly open, do not have open pvp in the game. Bounty Hunting should not be a mechanic used to enforce the "rules", whatever they are. The system should do that without the players making it happen.
The bounty system exists in the game to give people something to do. More specifically, a bounty system is in the game for the players who want to be bounty hunters, not the bounty or the person paying the bounty.
The question is how do you keep the system from being exploited by players to earn money, xp, etc. while at the same time, keeping it fun for the people participating.
* NPC's and Factions can place bounties on players (single kill only).
* Guilds can place bounties on other Guilds (time limited, unlimited kills).
* Players can place bounties on other players only in specific circumstances; when they get killed by another player in an unorganized pvp session (open world); when they get pick pocketed by another player; and so on.
* Once a bounty is satisfied, it's done. Bounty can't be placed again until the player does something again.
* Bounties are paid out in non-transferable currency.
* Bounties can't be collected on players friendly to the bounty hunter through guild(s) or factions.
* Death penalty for a bounty is higher than for a 'normal' pvp kill. Whatever the game's death penalty is, it's a little higher. It should not hinder the player's overall progress relative to other death penalties in the game though. If there is no experience penalty in the game, then you wouldn't add it to a bounty death penalty.
* Timeouts on bounties being able to bounty hunt their hunters. If Bounty Hunter A kills Bounty B, then Bounty B has to wait before being able to hunt Bounty Hunter A if there's a bounty on Bounty Hunter A's head.
* There should be little cost in placing a bounty on someone, since it's being triggered by the system. A high cost to place a bounty would be a double penalty on the player. They've already been killed, pick pocketed, etc.
And so on. I'm sure an experienced game developer could come up with something better. Perhaps Prime Online will have something better in their bounty hunting system.
** edit ** For politeness and clarity.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you don't want the PvP to be truly open, do not have open pvp in the game. Bounty Hunting should not be a mechanic used to enforce the "rules", whatever they are. The system should do that without the players making it happen.
Thank you, that is what I was trying to say but couldn't quite word it right. It is a mistake to allow open PvP but also set up a system designed specifically to stamp out a certain kind of killing. If the developers determine that a certain kind of killing (say, corpse camping) is bad for the game, they need to code it to make it impossible or else make it clear that players who do it will be banned. They shouldn't declare outright that the behavior is bad but then leave it to the other players to deter it and punish it.
Comments
I'd say quite the opposite. People in games with open PvP, or on open PvP servers, whining and throwing hissy fits when they die in PvP tend to ruin a good thing (great PvP). It's like watching some idiot go walking into a warzone in Iraq, and then freaking out because they got shot at. WTF did you expect?
PvPers cant ruin your PvE games without open PvP, but yet the PvErs insist on trying to ruin the PvPgames and get them turned into Carebear Land Online throwing fits in chat and on forums insisting that the game needs to be changed because theyre tired of getting PvPed.
First ask yourself what mmos had a working pvp?
Personally i have experienced Daoc, SWG, EvE.
Some others with pvp but not working...
Each of this 3 games i named has rules to the pvp and not mindless open ffa pvp - bounty has nothing to do with it, pvp needs rules that make it an option, give oportunity to participate WHEN players be in the mood to do so, have either pvp zones or a working pvp-flag system.
With or without bounty, mindless all over the world anytime anarcho pvp will never have sucess outside its ~25k mmo niche.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Thats true also.
Its just easier to toss people on a equal sides map and have them bash eachother for pvp currency for rewards with little risk.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Those games had PVP rules designed around the fact that a working unexploitable Bounty System was never invented. If a working Bounty System was invented way back in the 90's UO never would have come up with Trammel and PVP in SWG and EVE would be radically different.
The only analogy to the real world and US soldiers in Iraq is the Hasan Akbar case where Akbar tossed 4 grenades into a tents full of sleeping soldiers. You want to simulate that? You want a murder simulation?
He was sentenced to death BTW. What a fun game, for sickos.
The entire idea of a Bounty System is, "The player is the best judge of who is being a griefer," so the biggest jerk in the game gets the highest bounty. You can't code what player behavior is the most repulsive and what player behavior is roleplaying. The first time I was griefed was in UO, someone stole my ore I was dropping on the ground cause it was too heavy. That pissed me off, the guy was being a jerk, he could have grinded more ore himself instead of griefing other players. The first time I was PK'ed was in UO, some guy chased me across the map with an army of his minions, that was funny.
If there were a working Bounty System I would have placed a bounty on the guy that stole my ore, not the guy who PK'ed me, cauase the guy who stole my ore was a bigger jerk.
It's a sandbox feature: Player made content
If someone wants to roleplay a pirate they will have to use some tact when they rob someone, or at least not kill their victim, maybe even become honorable pirates (a romantic usually unhistorical understanding of piracy, but were talking about a video game). But only if there is a bounty system that punishes guys who just run around and PK other players, "I PWNED JOO!"
You could at least have come with an idea, because rambling about the fact non unexploitable system have been found just won't lead you anywhere. We know non have been set; but its not because its hard to find, its because dev teams doesn't really care about this, they are not even making mmos where such feature would be good to have. Look at it honestly most if not all mmos now are just "nicely" warped combat engines, nothing else, they don't give a damn about any role playing feature. Why would they even care about bounty? They would if they wanted you know, its not like its very hard to create one as you seam to think.
Now if you think it can fix random pking, i'm really not sure.
The way i find to be unexploitable is only if the bounty hunter is choosen by the victim and only him, he probably won't give the job the the pker friend or alt would he? You can also take the amount of the bounty plus something more from the pk pocket and voila an other unexploitable system, so even if the pk hunt himself he still loose.
They are many ways to make unexploitable systems, its not like its impossible to make, its easy to come with one and then fix it as some problems comes in. As i said mmos aren't about role playing and making realitic game world, only Uo and 1 or 2 more have that, maybe Eve and SWG. But that's it really. The rest of the mmo just doesn't give a shit about those kind of stuff, its sad but its just the whole true.
Anti social weirdos? those are games dude, people fight and kill each other in many games, they are not anti social weirdos for this. The only thing that make them that is because you mix up virtual reality with real life. Now if some dev want to make some super realistic mmo, ye sure they could make such systems.
Also i think having solid bounty system would be nice, at least in those a bit more mmorpg that the rest of the crap, that have nothing rpg into them.
The larger problem is that being hunted and killed is not a negative thing. Bounties work in real life / realistic stories because being caught by hunters (or killed in the capture attempt) is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. Bounties don't work in MMOs because dying is not bad at all, particularly if you value exciting PvP combat more than the items that you stand to lose.
Putting a bounty on an enemy's head is not a permanent solution in the way that hiring a RL hitman would be permanent. It's not even a temporary solution, nor is it even a little bit of a deterrant. So what's the point of them?
That remind me that some new korean game are getting some jail feature. I don't know what they are up to in korea with this but i'm pretty sure they found a good alternative if they implement this in a lot of new gen mmos. Maybe OP you can look at this and tell us how it work there
Easy to resolve.
Make being killed while you have a bounty on your head a negative thing. Stat loss, skill loss, exp loss. People don't like these things.
When UO implemented stat loss for "reds," so many of them cried about it. But in my opinion, it was not severe enough.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
All I can come up with is 1 character cannot collect bounty on same character more than once, but this effectiveness depends on how many characters a player can create per account or how long the grind time it is to get to max level to gank lowbies.
PvE-centric players don't like these things. PvP-centric players—especially griefers—don't care nearly as much. If they die and lose exp once in a while, that's the standard price for their lifestyle. Character progression is a means to an end, and that end is killin'.
And yes, you could push the penalties further and further until you're teetering at the precipice overlooking the final permadeath penalty, but what would be the point? A factionless PvP game where you explode into juicy gibs if you dare to attack another player? The appeal of an FFA PvP world is that you can walk up to anyone and attack them; why punish people for doing exactly that? That's the feature that people called for in this thread. In essence, they want a system that will recognize which killings are justice and which killings are for grief's sake, and punish exclusively those that are grief kills. No such system can enforce that because a.) any such system is exploitable, and (more importantly) b.) nobody can define "griefing".
What if I kill you because you insulted me? What if I kill you because you killed my friend? ...because you refuse to comply with an unreasonable demand? ...because of your appearance or your name? ...because of your reputation? ...because someone asked (or ordered, or paid) me to kill you? There's no right answer to these questions. A system that punishes people for doing the "wrong" kind of killing would have to take a stance on right vs. wrong, and that just prompts the question... if they can decide that certain kinds of killing are bad enough to be severely punishable so that they never happen, why wouldn't the developers just go ahead and make those kinds of killings a bannable offense to make sure that they're never committed?
Scenario A) You come across a bridge and another player is dressed in black armor, the player says, "None shall pass!" *trumphet music* You try to pass anyways and get PK'ed. You tell other players about the black knight and a crowd forms around him, the black night kills 20 more players the next 2 hours until 3 players gang up and kill the black knight.
Scenario
You're in Eve Online traveling through gates, get webbed and PK'ed. Nobody says anything to you, you just get PKed.
Scenario C) Your grinding mobs, you're down to 1/4th health, you're about to kill the last mob in a group and someone comes up from behind and PK's you.
What bounty would you, the victim, place on A,B,C? For me it would be:
A) none
C) high
Only a player can determine what's griefing and what's viable PK'ing, and only a working unexploitable Bounty System can provide that.
the one thing i loved about uo was the reputation system (even though it didnt work, atleast when i played before t2a). if u wanted to put a bounty on someone that person would take a hit to there skills if they were a murderer and if it was just some random jerk that say, stole your ore on your miner u could just hop on your murderer and destroy him. i get so sick of games with 2 factions and no matter what u cant kill people in your own faction. i dont know how many times ive had some jerk follow me around to annoy the hell out of me and kill the mobs or whatever i was trying to get just because they wanted to be a jerk. it lets all the annoying brats get away with being annoying brats without repercussions. it also adds a whole new level of pain when u have easy to aquire items and full loot on a person.also even if the bounty systems dont work atleast u could just tell your friends to KOS "insert name of player" and anytime they see that person they get whacked again. it really cuts down on the jerks in mmo's and makes people be friendlier. on a second note in games like eve where u have corps and those corps have aliiances u could make a bounty system that only works for people within your alliance and then the money would go to the corp coffers instead of the individual person.
Realistically, my answers for this would be:
A) high
C) none
If I've just been killed and looted, do I really want to lose more money on placing a bounty? What possible motivations could I have? Well, there's revenge, but if I'm not doing the killing myself and if I don't even see it happen, the catharsis is totally gone. A little popup window that says "Gormio killed Jakkripper and collected your 50000 gp bounty!" is going to feel about as rewarding as earning an achievement for jumping off a cliff. It doesn't benefit me in any way and it's painful.
What other motivations could I have? There's the desire to make the PKer reconsider their actions, and discourage them from ever doing it again. Along a similar line, the possibility of having a bounty puts on you acts as a deterrent; maybe they won't kill anybody in the first place just knowing that there are consequences. But both of these ignore the fact that you're playing an open PvP game where the whole point (arguably) is to grow stronger and fight other people. By placing a bounty on someone you dislike, you're paying people to go find him and play the game with him. What kind of punishment is that?! The PvE equivalent would be paying money to have someone "arrested" and thrown into a jail instance... where they can team up with other prisoners, break out, fight bosses and get the best drops in the game. It's a reward, not a punishment. And you're paying big money to give it to them.
So I wouldn't spend a dime giving gankers what they want—notoriety and more opponents. But I might spare some cash to put a bounty on someone like that black knight for RP reasons if I felt pleased with the interaction that I had with them and if I felt that they would appreciate being hunted down.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
First, I don't think that bounty systems are necessarily the best deterrent for PKing, but since this thread is about bounty systems, I will focus on them.
Earlier on this this thread I described a system where PKers would suffer stat/exp/skill loss upon death proportional to (and greater than) the bounty placed on them.
For example, if somene placed a bounty of 5000gp on a PKer and it takes 5 hours of grinding to make 5000gp, then the PKer would suffer 10-15 "grinding hours worth" of stat/exp/skill loss. If the bounty was 10000gp, they would suffer 20-30 hours worth.
If I were a PKer, I would be outraged/depressed when I found out that someone put a bounty on me that's going to result in 10 hours of grinding when I die. I would also try to avoid death as much as possible.
Also, in order to prevent poorer players from being taken advantage of, there could be a default (fairly low) bounty that the "state" puts on murderers when a player is killed. This bounty would carry the same penalties with it, but the player wouldn't have to spend any money if they don't want to or aren't able to.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy.
"How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen.
"how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
If it's an exploitable bounty system then the PK'er will be happy.
If it's an unexploitable bounty system then it would be bad for the PK'er.
It will not happen because the people on the receiving end of perma death are not gonna want to play the game. So if the bounty system uses perma death as its punishment it will force the targets of the bounty out of the game.
As you decrease the penalty, the bounty system will get weaker. If players decide that the penalty is trivial they will stop using the bounty system. The trick is to decide on a penalty that will be harsh enough to make the system usefull.
It is true, this would have a major effect and would not be trivial. However, it breaks a pretty big rule about open PvP: Might makes Right.
As I am led to understand, the big draw of PvP-centric sandbox MMORPGs is that you can use the power that you have gained to assert yourself, whether that's your power as an individual (your level, skills, and stats, your equipment and items, your knowledge of the game) or your power as a member of a large organization with a lot of firepower at their disposal. Someone was complaining earlier that faction-based PvP is no good because you inevitably run into some jerk from your own faction and you want to show him his place by killing him, but you cannot. That's the appeal of open PvP. Gain power, gain influence, and people will not be able to cross you without consequences.
A bounty system where money spent directly translates to stats/exp lost—doesn't matter that it's an eventual loss; everybody dies sooner or later—has the unfortunate effect of replacing Might makes Right with Wealth makes Right. Suddenly the threat of being chopped in half by a glowing axe pales in comparison to being statlossed back to your newb days by someone with a lot of disposable income. And I think that anyone posting on these forums can understand that no game these days is safe from unauthorized RMT, meaning that anyone with some real cash to throw around can buy the only kind of power that matters in that game: in-game currency. We're talking about the worst kind of Pay-To-Win here, the kind where you directly cause harm to a player character by pointing your wallet at them and pulling the trigger.
Unless you can stop bounties from adversely affecting people who don't deserve it (good luck with that; see my previous post), you've got to worry about that too. And if you can confidently pick out the people who deserve punishment and then make sure that bounties punish only them, well then you can safely dodge the whole bounty system and use nothing but built-in punishments. Not to mention the obvious workaround of putting a million on someone's head and then having your friend score the killing blow and hand you the money back... just off the top of my head.
If you don't want the PvP to be truly open, do not have open pvp in the game. Bounty Hunting should not be a mechanic used to enforce the "rules", whatever they are. The system should do that without the players making it happen.
The bounty system exists in the game to give people something to do. More specifically, a bounty system is in the game for the players who want to be bounty hunters, not the bounty or the person paying the bounty.
The question is how do you keep the system from being exploited by players to earn money, xp, etc. while at the same time, keeping it fun for the people participating.
* NPC's and Factions can place bounties on players (single kill only).
* Guilds can place bounties on other Guilds (time limited, unlimited kills).
* Players can place bounties on other players only in specific circumstances; when they get killed by another player in an unorganized pvp session (open world); when they get pick pocketed by another player; and so on.
* Once a bounty is satisfied, it's done. Bounty can't be placed again until the player does something again.
* Bounties are paid out in non-transferable currency.
* Bounties can't be collected on players friendly to the bounty hunter through guild(s) or factions.
* Death penalty for a bounty is higher than for a 'normal' pvp kill. Whatever the game's death penalty is, it's a little higher. It should not hinder the player's overall progress relative to other death penalties in the game though. If there is no experience penalty in the game, then you wouldn't add it to a bounty death penalty.
* Timeouts on bounties being able to bounty hunt their hunters. If Bounty Hunter A kills Bounty B, then Bounty B has to wait before being able to hunt Bounty Hunter A if there's a bounty on Bounty Hunter A's head.
* There should be little cost in placing a bounty on someone, since it's being triggered by the system. A high cost to place a bounty would be a double penalty on the player. They've already been killed, pick pocketed, etc.
And so on. I'm sure an experienced game developer could come up with something better. Perhaps Prime Online will have something better in their bounty hunting system.
** edit **
For politeness and clarity.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Thank you, that is what I was trying to say but couldn't quite word it right. It is a mistake to allow open PvP but also set up a system designed specifically to stamp out a certain kind of killing. If the developers determine that a certain kind of killing (say, corpse camping) is bad for the game, they need to code it to make it impossible or else make it clear that players who do it will be banned. They shouldn't declare outright that the behavior is bad but then leave it to the other players to deter it and punish it.