Earlier on this this thread I described a system where PKers would suffer stat/exp/skill loss upon death proportional to (and greater than) the bounty placed on them.
For example, if somene placed a bounty of 5000gp on a PKer and it takes 5 hours of grinding to make 5000gp, then the PKer would suffer 10-15 "grinding hours worth" of stat/exp/skill loss. If the bounty was 10000gp, they would suffer 20-30 hours worth.
It is true, this would have a major effect and would not be trivial. However, it breaks a pretty big rule about open PvP: Might makes Right.
As I am led to understand, the big draw of PvP-centric sandbox MMORPGs is that you can use the power that you have gained to assert yourself, whether that's your power as an individual (your level, skills, and stats, your equipment and items, your knowledge of the game) or your power as a member of a large organization with a lot of firepower at their disposal. Someone was complaining earlier that faction-based PvP is no good because you inevitably run into some jerk from your own faction and you want to show him his place by killing him, but you cannot. That's the appeal of open PvP. Gain power, gain influence, and people will not be able to cross you without consequences.
A bounty system where money spent directly translates to stats/exp lost—doesn't matter that it's an eventual loss; everybody dies sooner or later—has the unfortunate effect of replacing Might makes Right with Wealth makes Right. Suddenly the threat of being chopped in half by a glowing axe pales in comparison to being statlossed back to your newb days by someone with a lot of disposable income. And I think that anyone posting on these forums can understand that no game these days is safe from unauthorized RMT, meaning that anyone with some real cash to throw around can buy the only kind of power that matters in that game: in-game currency. We're talking about the worst kind of Pay-To-Win here, the kind where you directly cause harm to a player character by pointing your wallet at them and pulling the trigger.
Unless you can stop bounties from adversely affecting people who don't deserve it (good luck with that; see my previous post), you've got to worry about that too. And if you can confidently pick out the people who deserve punishment and then make sure that bounties punish only them, well then you can safely dodge the whole bounty system and use nothing but built-in punishments. Not to mention the obvious workaround of putting a million on someone's head and then having your friend score the killing blow and hand you the money back... just off the top of my head.
I think what much of you say makes sense. This system is most definitely severe, and will change the balance of power.
However, I don't think it will be difficult to prevent people from arbitarily placing bounties. Just make it so a player can only place a bounty on a player that has personally murdered (not killed) them within some timespan. If you don't want a bounty on you, don't murder other players.
Also, put a "safety switch" in the game that will prevent you from attacking any player that will flag you as a murderer when you kill them. This will prevent people jumping in front of your fireball or sword.
I think that my ideas stem from the fact that I would like a game with open PvP just because I think it makes it more realistic and less restrictive, but I would want murder to be dealt with harshly, much as it is in the real world.
There would still be avenues for consensual and competitive PvP, joinable factions, arenas, dueling, etc. Only non-consensual PvP would get the iron fist of bounty statloss.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy.
"How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen.
"how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
It will not happen because the people on the receiving end of perma death are not gonna want to play the game. So if the bounty system uses perma death as its punishment it will force the targets of the bounty out of the game.
As you decrease the penalty, the bounty system will get weaker. If players decide that the penalty is trivial they will stop using the bounty system. The trick is to decide on a penalty that will be harsh enough to make the system usefull.
Permadeath games don't exist, stop talking about it as if it's an option. It's not an option.
Your understanding of a working unexploitable Bounty System is the complete 180 opposite of reality.
*shrug* So prove me wrong. Paint me a vivid picture of a PKer being outraged and/or depressed upon finding out that someone has placed a bounty on their head.
There is only two real reasons for putting a bounty on someone:
-revenge
-deterrance
In both these cases the bounty only has a meaning if it really hurts the target of the bounty. If the bounty system is exploitable than the bounty does not hurt and there is no point in putting a bounty on someone. Similarly if the penalty for dying to a bounty hunter is considered trivial than the system does not provide much of revenge or deterrance.
If the target of a bounty suffers character perma death than the bounty system has real power and one would think very hard about their actions before making one's character vulnerable to it. As the associated penalties get less painful the system will be less effective.
In a harsh penalty bounty system I would definetly put a bounty on a random ganker but would not put one on a RPing Black Knight. In a trivial penalty bounty system I would put a bounty on the Black Knight for the fun factor but would consider it silly to put a bounty on some random ganker who will not learn a lesson from it.
Stop bringing "Perma death" into any topic at MMORPG.com, it aint gonna happen Duderonomy.
"How about when you get a Bounty you have to do 100 pushups," whatever, aint gonna happen.
"how about when you get a Bounty you've got to do a headstand for 90 seconds," whatever.
It will not happen because the people on the receiving end of perma death are not gonna want to play the game. So if the bounty system uses perma death as its punishment it will force the targets of the bounty out of the game.
As you decrease the penalty, the bounty system will get weaker. If players decide that the penalty is trivial they will stop using the bounty system. The trick is to decide on a penalty that will be harsh enough to make the system usefull.
If you don't want the PvP to be truly open, do not have open pvp in the game. Bounty Hunting should not be a mechanic used to enforce the "rules", whatever they are. The system should do that without the players making it happen.
The bounty system exists in the game to give people something to do. More specifically, a bounty system is in the game for the players who want to be bounty hunters, not the bounty or the person paying the bounty.
The question is how do you keep the system from being exploited by players to earn money, xp, etc. while at the same time, keeping it fun for the people participating.
* NPC's and Factions can place bounties on players (single kill only).
* Guilds can place bounties on other Guilds (time limited, unlimited kills).
* Players can place bounties on other players only in specific circumstances; when they get killed by another player in an unorganized pvp session (open world); when they get pick pocketed by another player; and so on.
* Once a bounty is satisfied, it's done. Bounty can't be placed again until the player does something again.
* Bounties are paid out in non-transferable currency.
* Bounties can't be collected on players friendly to the bounty hunter through guild(s) or factions.
* Death penalty for a bounty is higher than for a 'normal' pvp kill. Whatever the game's death penalty is, it's a little higher. It should not hinder the player's overall progress relative to other death penalties in the game though. If there is no experience penalty in the game, then you wouldn't add it to a bounty death penalty.
* Timeouts on bounties being able to bounty hunt their hunters. If Bounty Hunter A kills Bounty B, then Bounty B has to wait before being able to hunt Bounty Hunter A if there's a bounty on Bounty Hunter A's head.
* There should be little cost in placing a bounty on someone, since it's being triggered by the system. A high cost to place a bounty would be a double penalty on the player. They've already been killed, pick pocketed, etc.
And so on. I'm sure an experienced game developer could come up with something better. Perhaps Prime Online will have something better in their bounty hunting system.
** edit **
For politeness and clarity.
What part of "unexploitable" don't you get? That's exploitable, therefore useless.
Comments
I think what much of you say makes sense. This system is most definitely severe, and will change the balance of power.
However, I don't think it will be difficult to prevent people from arbitarily placing bounties. Just make it so a player can only place a bounty on a player that has personally murdered (not killed) them within some timespan. If you don't want a bounty on you, don't murder other players.
Also, put a "safety switch" in the game that will prevent you from attacking any player that will flag you as a murderer when you kill them. This will prevent people jumping in front of your fireball or sword.
I think that my ideas stem from the fact that I would like a game with open PvP just because I think it makes it more realistic and less restrictive, but I would want murder to be dealt with harshly, much as it is in the real world.
There would still be avenues for consensual and competitive PvP, joinable factions, arenas, dueling, etc. Only non-consensual PvP would get the iron fist of bounty statloss.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Permadeath games don't exist, stop talking about it as if it's an option. It's not an option.
What part of "unexploitable" don't you get? That's exploitable, therefore useless.