Execution is the key. Warhammer Online had some great concepts, but fell down in quality of execution. Even if SWTOR is lacking in originality, if it's well executed and polished, it could be fun to play. If the end game turns into just another hamster wheel, I'll just enjoy the run to level cap maybe a couple of times, and move on to another game.
My concern is alignment either having no effect or if I want to go on raids being forced to pick a certain alignment. Something like the so called pros for raids finding out that for Republic Dark side jedi guardians, light side smuggler, etc etc are the most "efficent" which becomes the only acceptable build includes which choices you are "allowed" to make in order to raid. I suppose alignment could be nothing more than story, but still, just a concern.
That's a legit concern. Everyone wants to avoid having to be a generic cookie cutter build. From what I have read, alignment will only impact your character's personality and unlock a few titles. I think thre is some alignment specific gear that goes along with it. However, no alignment specific abilities.
My concern is alignment either having no effect or if I want to go on raids being forced to pick a certain alignment. Something like the so called pros for raids finding out that for Republic Dark side jedi guardians, light side smuggler, etc etc are the most "efficent" which becomes the only acceptable build includes which choices you are "allowed" to make in order to raid. I suppose alignment could be nothing more than story, but still, just a concern.
That's a legit concern. Everyone wants to avoid having to be a generic cookie cutter build. From what I have read, alignment will only impact your character's personality and unlock a few titles. I think thre is some alignment specific gear that goes along with it. However, no alignment specific abilities.
as i posted earlier, from what we know there will be abilities unlocked within the skill trees based on your alignment. dallas dickinson mentions it in this video from E3 at about 29mins. we don't have much in the way of specifics but the main theory i hear most often is that people think the abilities will basically be mirrored, so that they may get different names and animations but will have the same effects. they have said they don't want people to get locked out of groups because of their alignment. now of course if there is even a 1% percent difference you will have some people that will demand that you go that alignment your you can't join but those same people would demand you be certain builds even without the alignment skills
here is a q&a from the fansite summit, where daniel erickson talks about how alignment things need to balance out by endgame
The endgame, for me, has NEVER been raids, dungeon gear grinds, and dailies.
[SNIP]
It's refreshing to finally see MMOs that realize that a great many of us do NOT live for stupid endgame raids, gear/reputation grinds, PvP, and dailies but instead roll an alt character. I don't care that these other "endgame" activites are in the game, but that kind of dren is not -- and never has been -- MY endgame.
TOR will have Dailies, Dungeons and raids along with some type of instanced pvp.
If u think that wont be the focus you are kidding yourself. Obviously u can keep rerolling but sooner or later u will burn out just like the "hamster wheel" players.
Personally im just hoping the content is fun. it doesnt bother me that its mechanics are similar to other games.
I agree with Z3 on this one, Tho they did say there will be 200+ Hours of single player content for each class, that does not make leveling the focus. Going threw the levels will tell great stories and break up the standard of questing from opening a log reading some text (in my case not reading) and will pull you into the story. But at the same time the raids and the end game pvp are were the war between the republic and the empire. As for the endgame being dribble and stupid...its the endgamers that will see all of the content, that encludes the leveling content and the endgame in the end by bashing on endgame and saying its pointless is just hurting your own game experiance.
My point was not that SWTOR won't have that kind of stuff but that I won't be playing it. I prefer rolling alts, and at least in TOR Bioware is making a concerted effort to offer those of us who enjoy rolling new toons/classes a better and more unique experience.
I think this is a refreshing and very fundamental difference from most MMO "endgames."
@ Gaou Couldn't agree more. Elitists will be elitists.
And you are correct Gaou, I remember watching that vid. Sorry, what I meant was that there are no alignment specific abilities that would alter the game or your character. There will be alignment specific abilities that mirror or off set each other Hence making little difference in terms of what alignment you choose. Sounds confusing I know, but the way you put it is very clear. Thanks for the clarity
I guess it would be like: Dark side Jedi may have a Force choke ability that levitates your opponent while adding a DoT, while light side my have a whirlwind that levitates them and causes DoT. No difference other that cosmetics for story purposes. Something like that.
(that's completely made up for use as an example by the way)
My point was not that SWTOR won't have that kind of stuff but that I won't be playing it. I prefer rolling alts, and at least in TOR Bioware is making a concerted effort to offer those of us who enjoy rolling new toons/classes a better and more unique experience.
I think this is a refreshing and very fundamental difference from most MMO "endgames."
I agree with you. However; I wouldn't say that I am not going to participate in endgame at all. More specifically, I would say that I'm not going to repeat it over and over for gear. (end game grind) I will do it once for the story aspect.
I mean, from what we know it will most likely be, pretty close to what we have already done in other games, there might be a twist but I really don't think the impact will be that great, I can't see them holding onto something that would be that game changing till the end to hype.
That said, I have to repeat, it doesn't matter to me if its sim to Wow or other themeparks, so long as its well made and enjoyable, and supplies enough to do for several months, and they keep packing it. I mean to say I'm fine running out of stuff to do, and getting bored with this game, as I'm not sure there is a solution to this out there, even in development yet.
Running out of progression just hasn't been solved yet in the MMORPG genre. And ya know, I'm convinced yet it has to be, I still know people who started games with me years ago who still play them to this day, ltr on they will log on and do something they have been doing for years, even though they have everything, know everything you could want to.
PVP is a large part of any MMO’s endgame, and of course TOR will be no exception. As of right now we know that warzones will most likely be the sole source of PVP at launch. Specific gear for PVP has also been confirmed, almost certainly being received in exchange for points gathered during combat. Open world PVP will make an appearance but looks as though the player’s from opposing factions will have to consent to the fight using some sort of flag system.
looks to me like you need to research more (directed at the writer, whatever post is above mine). they have said over and over again that there will be open world pvp and that flagging only applies on pve servers. and even then there will be some open world pvp areas, where if you go there, it was to pvp.
Hehe, aye. Exactly what I thought after reading it.
There will be dedicated world pvp areas on both pve and pvp servers and in addition you can get attacked by players outside of those area's on pvp servers (bar certain safe zones) and if you agree to it, on pve servers as well, as far as I read correctly.
So even PVE server players can get some world pvp goodness if they feel like it.
If this is starting to sound a lot like WoW, that’s probably because so far that’s what it looks like.
Dare I say "WoW with Lightsabers"?
We shall see. I'm setting myself up to enjoy the journey.
But end-game content, or lack there-of with hints of the same lobby-system, heavily instanced, same Raid /Warzone map grinding, chasing the same instanced mobs down ad nauseum, with no influence or impact on massively-multiplayer open-world content that effectively should motivate a purposeful and massive community coordinated involvement, is what has me very skeptical about yet another early departure from a mmorpg.
More I hear about this game, the less I look forward to it.. Not that I really expected it to have much of an endgame, but this pretty much confirms it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
"Wahhh, I am bored of WoW style end game, therefore every MMO coming out should cater to me."
Fact is most people arn't bored of end games styles like WoW or else WoW would be bleeding subs faster then it is now and games like The Secret World would have more then 43k likes on facebook. ToR has over 340k.
I would like new end game stuff other then raids to do as well, but i want that in addition. THe more stuff you can do at end game the better. I actually like raids so no problem there.
end-game to be at least so far in ToR consists of this
Raids
PvP (open and closed)
world exploration
title gathering
allignment inforceing/changing
crafting
getting the rest of the codex entries
Seeing all sides of the flashpoints (any you might have missed the first time around)
Trading
getting social clothing (whatever that happens to be)
Playing the space combat min-game to upgrade your ship.
What i would like them to add
Pod racing
arena style fights ala Kotor 1
Some non-combat things like interacting with bar tenders or dance contests or what have you
I would have liked Pazaak but thats using credits to win a card game which is too close to ---> gambling and that is generally frowned upon having in game with younger audiences involved. Though to be fair some of these mystery boxes showing up in game sounds like gambling but i digress.
All in all sounds like so far a normal end-game with a few extra things you can do on the side with of course bioware story telling on top. It's basic twiddle your thumbs until more content comes out like all end-game is. This one at least sounds a bit more interesting so i'm good on that front.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Open world territorial PvEvP would fit totally and completely PERFECT for this game as an "end game." They could dedicate entire planets to it. 100% system based, not content based. Dynamic and never-ending WAR! Maybe the guys at Bioware who worked on WAR will get it right this time?
Good luck with that.
"If I'm not enjoying the game from the beginning then why do I need to torture myself to get to "end cap" to see the "real" game? WTF? Why can't the WHOLE GAME BE THE REAL GAME" - TheExplorer
How do you ask people to continue doing the same old trend when they have been doing it for the past 7+ years now. I dunno, I think it is going to be a very interesting launch lol.
Doesn't really matter, the experience of getting there is fun enough. If you get bored move on and play something else, it's still worth the enjoyment of playing thru to max level if it is entertaining and fun.
I always avoid raiding as an endgame mechanic. There is something about waiting forever for people to all show and then having a huge epeen swear-fest of a 4 hour run while hoping you don't screw something up and you can make it to the bathroom and back before someone notices that just doesn't appeal to me. Not only that, but as soon as you arrive everyone will start checking out your gear and your spec to make sure you are cookie cutter perfect. If you aren't you will be beaten to within an inch of your life by someone's huge, malformed epeen. Having fun yet?
No, for me endgame has always been about any kind of PVP that doesn't force me to wait forever for people and isn't so serious that even a slight lag in your internet connection will cost you the fight (i.e. arena in WoW). Battlegrounds, open world PVP and RVR zones are all major fun.
That being said, I am sure I will roll a lot of alts as well if the story is up to Bioware's usual standards. I can't wait to go wandering around the galaxy in my trusty spaceship while fighting the evil sith every chance I get. WoW in a Star Wars skin with an involving story sounds pretty damn awesome to me.
WOOHOO!
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
On the fence with this one. I will be watching it from a distance and seeing how it goes after launch. I could really careless. But it will be fun to watch the forums for a day after launch, that were the real fun will be. I wish bioware good luck though. The themepark thing is really not my thing anymore.
I would like new end game stuff other then raids to do as well, but i want that in addition. THe more stuff you can do at end game the better. I actually like raids so no problem there.
end-game to be at least so far in ToR consists of this
Raids
PvP (open and closed)
world exploration
title gathering
allignment inforceing/changing
crafting
getting the rest of the codex entries
Seeing all sides of the flashpoints (any you might have missed the first time around)
Trading
getting social clothing (whatever that happens to be)
Playing the space combat min-game to upgrade your ship.
What i would like them to add
Pod racing
arena style fights ala Kotor 1
Some non-combat things like interacting with bar tenders or dance contests or what have you
I would have liked Pazaak but thats using credits to win a card game which is too close to ---> gambling and that is generally frowned upon having in game with younger audiences involved. Though to be fair some of these mystery boxes showing up in game sounds like gambling but i digress.
All in all sounds like so far a normal end-game with a few extra things you can do on the side with of course bioware story telling on top. It's basic twiddle your thumbs until more content comes out like all end-game is. This one at least sounds a bit more interesting so i'm good on that front.
Problem is most the things you listed for endgame are after thoughts and or dumb down to the point that it does not matter if they're in the game or not.
Look at how poor Rift's endgame turned out to be.... I don't see ToR being that much better.
And please if you going to give crafting as an endgame option please, please don't give some dumb down crap. Take a page from SWG, EQ2, LotRO and FE for examples of how crafting should be handled in an mmo.
As it stands ToR's endgame is nothing but chasing the carrot for better gear.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
As it stands ToR's endgame is nothing but chasing the carrot for better gear.
Which is precisely what most dont want and why, I believe, that ~70% of subscribers to past mmorpgs over the years have left within the first year, let alone first 3-6 months.
Yep. So many people level up, get bored, level another alt, get bored, level another alt, then end their subscription and buy another theme-park game and do it all over again. Theme-park games are all the rage I guess, but it results in over-hyped games that fade quickly. SWTOR is a theme-park game on steriods because of the voice-over "story" mode. Might be a great story, but I don't like to read the same book over and over and over.
Comments
Execution is the key. Warhammer Online had some great concepts, but fell down in quality of execution. Even if SWTOR is lacking in originality, if it's well executed and polished, it could be fun to play. If the end game turns into just another hamster wheel, I'll just enjoy the run to level cap maybe a couple of times, and move on to another game.
That's a legit concern. Everyone wants to avoid having to be a generic cookie cutter build. From what I have read, alignment will only impact your character's personality and unlock a few titles. I think thre is some alignment specific gear that goes along with it. However, no alignment specific abilities.
as i posted earlier, from what we know there will be abilities unlocked within the skill trees based on your alignment. dallas dickinson mentions it in this video from E3 at about 29mins. we don't have much in the way of specifics but the main theory i hear most often is that people think the abilities will basically be mirrored, so that they may get different names and animations but will have the same effects. they have said they don't want people to get locked out of groups because of their alignment. now of course if there is even a 1% percent difference you will have some people that will demand that you go that alignment your you can't join but those same people would demand you be certain builds even without the alignment skills
here is a q&a from the fansite summit, where daniel erickson talks about how alignment things need to balance out by endgame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrRB1w67Yxw&feature=player_profilepage#t=377s
My point was not that SWTOR won't have that kind of stuff but that I won't be playing it. I prefer rolling alts, and at least in TOR Bioware is making a concerted effort to offer those of us who enjoy rolling new toons/classes a better and more unique experience.
I think this is a refreshing and very fundamental difference from most MMO "endgames."
@ Gaou Couldn't agree more. Elitists will be elitists.
And you are correct Gaou, I remember watching that vid. Sorry, what I meant was that there are no alignment specific abilities that would alter the game or your character. There will be alignment specific abilities that mirror or off set each other Hence making little difference in terms of what alignment you choose. Sounds confusing I know, but the way you put it is very clear. Thanks for the clarity
I guess it would be like: Dark side Jedi may have a Force choke ability that levitates your opponent while adding a DoT, while light side my have a whirlwind that levitates them and causes DoT. No difference other that cosmetics for story purposes. Something like that.
(that's completely made up for use as an example by the way)
I agree with you. However; I wouldn't say that I am not going to participate in endgame at all. More specifically, I would say that I'm not going to repeat it over and over for gear. (end game grind) I will do it once for the story aspect.
You will be standing on your faction's capital city waiting for queues to pop. That, and waiting for your guild's raids to start. Just like in WoW.
I mean, from what we know it will most likely be, pretty close to what we have already done in other games, there might be a twist but I really don't think the impact will be that great, I can't see them holding onto something that would be that game changing till the end to hype.
That said, I have to repeat, it doesn't matter to me if its sim to Wow or other themeparks, so long as its well made and enjoyable, and supplies enough to do for several months, and they keep packing it. I mean to say I'm fine running out of stuff to do, and getting bored with this game, as I'm not sure there is a solution to this out there, even in development yet.
Running out of progression just hasn't been solved yet in the MMORPG genre. And ya know, I'm convinced yet it has to be, I still know people who started games with me years ago who still play them to this day, ltr on they will log on and do something they have been doing for years, even though they have everything, know everything you could want to.
My brand new bloggity blog.
More I hear about this game, the less I look forward to it.. Not that I really expected it to have much of an endgame, but this pretty much confirms it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
guess ToR didn't get that memo.... WoW done beat that horse to death
people don't want to chase that damn carrot on a stick for their endgame anymore
within 2 months ToR will be in the same boat Rift is in and bleeding subs and people bitching about the endgame with nothing to do
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Look at all the Q_Q.
"Wahhh, I am bored of WoW style end game, therefore every MMO coming out should cater to me."
Fact is most people arn't bored of end games styles like WoW or else WoW would be bleeding subs faster then it is now and games like The Secret World would have more then 43k likes on facebook. ToR has over 340k.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
I would like new end game stuff other then raids to do as well, but i want that in addition. THe more stuff you can do at end game the better. I actually like raids so no problem there.
end-game to be at least so far in ToR consists of this
Raids
PvP (open and closed)
world exploration
title gathering
allignment inforceing/changing
crafting
getting the rest of the codex entries
Seeing all sides of the flashpoints (any you might have missed the first time around)
Trading
getting social clothing (whatever that happens to be)
Playing the space combat min-game to upgrade your ship.
What i would like them to add
Pod racing
arena style fights ala Kotor 1
Some non-combat things like interacting with bar tenders or dance contests or what have you
I would have liked Pazaak but thats using credits to win a card game which is too close to ---> gambling and that is generally frowned upon having in game with younger audiences involved. Though to be fair some of these mystery boxes showing up in game sounds like gambling but i digress.
All in all sounds like so far a normal end-game with a few extra things you can do on the side with of course bioware story telling on top. It's basic twiddle your thumbs until more content comes out like all end-game is. This one at least sounds a bit more interesting so i'm good on that front.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Open world territorial PvEvP would fit totally and completely PERFECT for this game as an "end game."
They could dedicate entire planets to it.
100% system based, not content based. Dynamic and never-ending WAR!
Maybe the guys at Bioware who worked on WAR will get it right this time?
Good luck with that.Playing GW2..
How do you ask people to continue doing the same old trend when they have been doing it for the past 7+ years now. I dunno, I think it is going to be a very interesting launch lol.
Doesn't really matter, the experience of getting there is fun enough. If you get bored move on and play something else, it's still worth the enjoyment of playing thru to max level if it is entertaining and fun.
I always avoid raiding as an endgame mechanic. There is something about waiting forever for people to all show and then having a huge epeen swear-fest of a 4 hour run while hoping you don't screw something up and you can make it to the bathroom and back before someone notices that just doesn't appeal to me. Not only that, but as soon as you arrive everyone will start checking out your gear and your spec to make sure you are cookie cutter perfect. If you aren't you will be beaten to within an inch of your life by someone's huge, malformed epeen. Having fun yet?
No, for me endgame has always been about any kind of PVP that doesn't force me to wait forever for people and isn't so serious that even a slight lag in your internet connection will cost you the fight (i.e. arena in WoW). Battlegrounds, open world PVP and RVR zones are all major fun.
That being said, I am sure I will roll a lot of alts as well if the story is up to Bioware's usual standards. I can't wait to go wandering around the galaxy in my trusty spaceship while fighting the evil sith every chance I get. WoW in a Star Wars skin with an involving story sounds pretty damn awesome to me.
WOOHOO!
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
On the fence with this one. I will be watching it from a distance and seeing how it goes after launch. I could really careless. But it will be fun to watch the forums for a day after launch, that were the real fun will be. I wish bioware good luck though. The themepark thing is really not my thing anymore.
Problem is most the things you listed for endgame are after thoughts and or dumb down to the point that it does not matter if they're in the game or not.
Look at how poor Rift's endgame turned out to be.... I don't see ToR being that much better.
And please if you going to give crafting as an endgame option please, please don't give some dumb down crap. Take a page from SWG, EQ2, LotRO and FE for examples of how crafting should be handled in an mmo.
As it stands ToR's endgame is nothing but chasing the carrot for better gear.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
no matter what, im game and cant wait for this to come out!! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!
Which is precisely what most dont want and why, I believe, that ~70% of subscribers to past mmorpgs over the years have left within the first year, let alone first 3-6 months.
Yep. So many people level up, get bored, level another alt, get bored, level another alt, then end their subscription and buy another theme-park game and do it all over again. Theme-park games are all the rage I guess, but it results in over-hyped games that fade quickly. SWTOR is a theme-park game on steriods because of the voice-over "story" mode. Might be a great story, but I don't like to read the same book over and over and over.