My view of twitch combat in MMORPGs

Benedikt

Hi

In last years I do see more and more people to ask for a "twitch combat" in MMORPGs. They want more control over the combat, active dodging and parrying, they want for RPG combat to be closer to FPS one, because "classic RPG combat is boring".

 

Well, I have to say, that I personally don't think, that twitch combat belongs to (MMO)RPG. I would go as far as to say, that from purely combat POW, RPG with twitch combat is not an RPG anymore.

 

Why? It is simple - because you are no longer fighting as a character in game, you are fighting as a player. You are taking away the core of RPG games - that you are playing a character which can have COMPLETELY different skillset than you have as a person. Suddenly your mighty warrior is really a "crappy" warrior, because you as a person do have crappy reflexes, or your weak mage is beating warriors in hand-to-hand combat, because you have great reflexes.

 

I am not saying that there should not be MMOs with twitch combat (hell I do like FPS-like combat in Fallen Earth ), just please don't say it should be in MMORPGs, because it IMO really doesn't belongs to them.

EndDream

I am looking forward all of the twitch games coming out personally. I have alway viewed UO as having twitch combat, inturupting spells etc which is probably why I liked the Mesmer in GW. I have always played all types of games, RPG/FPS/RTS etc.

I really feel that the tab targeting 1, 2 ,3, combat is getting old but I'm re-subbed to WoW and having fun ATM in the firelands..

All in all I voted for "I disagree, but I like non-twitch combat in (MMO)RPGs" because I could go either way and enjoy a game.

tinuelle

Dude....... most people that play MMORPGs let their personality reflect in their characters some way or another. There are really few that take on a role that deviates a lot from their personality.

That is, you of course can find some of these in the RP-servers, but hell, my experience are that some of these are a bit "loco". I personally cant stand the bipolar fighter that is scared of mice, but beats the crap outta dragons. I can understand that someone enjoys acting, some are good at it, but most are best at just beeing themselves and let that shine through in their character.

Besides, ever been in a party in a dungeon where one of the members at the end of the raid where you shall destroy the dragon, turns out to be a "i-will-never-kill-dragons,i-love-dragons, and-didnt-know-there-was-a-dragon-at-the-end-of-this-instance-dude"? Well, then you can be glad, makes you want to be able to for real RP the nemesis of all retards.......

Oh, as an answer to your question, i surely believe that twitch based combat has its place in MMO's. But I love diversity, and realize that not all games are for all players.

EndDream

Originally posted by tinuelle

Dude....... most people that play MMORPGs let their personality reflect in their characters some way or another. There are really few that take on a role that deviates a lot from their personality.

That is, you of course can find some of these in the RP-servers, but hell, my experience are that some of these are a bit "loco". I personally cant stand the bipolar fighter that is scared of mice, but beats the crap outta dragons. I can understand that someone enjoys acting, some are good at it, but most are best at just beeing themselves and let that shine through in their character.

Besides, ever been in a party in a dungeon where one of the members at the end of the raid where you shall destroy the dragon, turns out to be a "i-will-never-kill-dragons,i-love-dragons, and-didnt-know-there-was-a-dragon-at-the-end-of-this-instance-dude"? Well, then you can be glad, makes you want to be able to for real RP the nemesis of all retards.......

Oh, as an answer to your question, i surely believe that twitch based combat has its place in MMO's. But I love diversity, and realize that not all games are for all players.

I'm not sure how on topic this post is... but it made me LOL because I've been there!

Diovidius

So western RPG's like The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher are not RPG's...?

kastrix

Originally posted by Diovidius

So western RPG's like The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher are not RPG's...?

yes they are, but they are not mmos'

Benedikt

Originally posted by Diovidius

So western RPG's like The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher are not RPG's...?

 from purely combat POW? nope

(tho in most "rpg" games with twitch combat you still have at least strength of the hit based on your eq and not on how well you waggle with your mouse )

Vorthanion

Aren't RPG's with twitch combat considered Action Adventure games?

 

Personally, I don't care for twitch combat or combination attack style games, be they MMO or otherwise.  The one exception being Mortal Kombat, but I rarely play it as it gets old fast.

Sovrath

I personally don't mind "non-twitch" combat. Having said that, the "twitch" combat is so much more fun for me.

I also disagree with the assessment that it makes a game a "non-role play game".

Isn't a role play game about playing a role?

The numbers are certainly part of traditional role play games but I really don't think that is what should define them.

I would even go so far as to say that the numbers do NOT define a role play game and are instead one type of scaffolding that the "role play" part is hung upon.

Does it really matter if a swipe is then accompanied by a roll of a virtual dice over the ability of the player when the character is supposed to be a paladin or assassin or Bard?

Shouldn't the actual choices during game play count more than a tick on a strength box or a skill box?

Those are the tools of the role but are not what fleshes out the role of the player.

In any case that's my thought.

edit: You know, I'll also add that the whole numbers thing is really just a way to dictate success and failure as well as progress because there really isn't a great way of doing this. I mean, players aren't going to beat the hell out of each other with swords or shoot guns at each other.

short of donning laser tag gear and doing a more live action role play version of some game, numbers really are a good way to progress one's character and act as a way to dictate certain events. Regardless of "role".

Warny

I did like the combat in conan, it was a fresh system and while it took some skill it was not a reflex based system as such. 

RabbiFang

The number bashing combat is in most MMOs not for its RPG elements, but for its comparative ease in net-code implementation.  That is all.

 

Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be. 

Sovrath

Originally posted by RabbiFang

 

Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be. 

That's probably true which is why the whole "numbers thing" isn't such a bad thing when you take into consideration that it definitely evens the playing field.

Not everyone can do twitch combat. But anyone can do combat that is tab targetted and relies upon skill numbers or whatever else the system looks for.

Benedikt

Originally posted by Sovrath

I personally don't mind "non-twitch" combat. Having said that, the "twitch" combat is so much more fun for me.

I also disagree with the assessment that it makes a game a "non-role play game".

Isn't a role play game about playing a role?

The numbers are certainly part of traditional role play games but I really don't think that is what should define them.

I would even go so far as to say that the numbers do NOT define a role play game and are instead one type of scaffolding that the "role play" part is hung upon.

Does it really matter if a swipe is then accompanied by a roll of a virtual dice over the ability of the player when the character is supposed to be a paladin or assassin or Bard?

Shouldn't the actual choices during game play count more than a tick on a strength box or a skill box?

Those are the tools of the role but are not what fleshes out the role of the player.

In any case that's my thought.

 i partially agree with what you are saying but i see few problems.

first is general - there is no way to play "real" rp on computer (unless you do it in way of just describing your actions etc through tell/chat/forum) - you are always limited by what the game allows you to do. therefore unlike for "pnp" rpg (i wrote "pnp" because i did play few rpg where you didnt used even that pen and paper ), for computer rpgs number imo ARE important.

second - things like "Shouldn't the actual choices during game play count more than a tick on a strength box or a skill box?" , the actual important choices are usually outside combat, not part of it

and third, consider this scenario: you want to play a mighty warrior in (mmo)rpg, who can (after a proper training) slay dragons, giants etc. ... but actually, you cann't, just because you are as a player lousy in areas like reflexes etc. 

Benedikt

Originally posted by RabbiFang

Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be. 

 no, actually it is not, thats the point.

this is how it should be in FPS or RTS, not in RPG.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sovrath

I personally don't mind "non-twitch" combat. Having said that, the "twitch" combat is so much more fun for me.

I also disagree with the assessment that it makes a game a "non-role play game".

Isn't a role play game about playing a role?

The numbers are certainly part of traditional role play games but I really don't think that is what should define them.

I would even go so far as to say that the numbers do NOT define a role play game and are instead one type of scaffolding that the "role play" part is hung upon.

Does it really matter if a swipe is then accompanied by a roll of a virtual dice over the ability of the player when the character is supposed to be a paladin or assassin or Bard?

Shouldn't the actual choices during game play count more than a tick on a strength box or a skill box?

Those are the tools of the role but are not what fleshes out the role of the player.

In any case that's my thought.

 i partially agree with what you are saying but i see few problems.

first is general - there is no way to play "real" rp on computer (unless you do it in way of just describing your actions etc through tell/chat/forum) - you are always limited by what the game allows you to do. therefore unlike for "pnp" rpg (i wrote "pnp" because i did play few rpg where you didnt used even that pen and paper ), for computer rpgs number imo ARE important.

second - things like "Shouldn't the actual choices during game play count more than a tick on a strength box or a skill box?" , the actual important choices are usually outside combat, not part of it

and third, consider this scenario: you want to play a mighty warrior in (mmo)rpg, who can (after a proper training) slay dragons, giants etc. ... but actually, you cann't, just because you are as a player lousy in areas like reflexes etc. 

well I do have an edit to that post but I didn't make it in before you were replying. Also I have anohter post up there that will add to what I say.

here's the edit:

edit: You know, I'll also add that the whole numbers thing is really just a way to dictate success and failure as well as progress because there really isn't a great way of doing this. I mean, players aren't going to beat the hell out of each other with swords or shoot guns at each other.

short of donning laser tag gear and doing a more live action role play version of some game, numbers really are a good way to progress one's character and act as a way to dictate certain events. Regardless of "role".

My thougth to choices went back to pen and paper with some of the other dice rolls one would make outside of combat. It's true some of that just won't show up in an mmo.

As far as your last bit that probably speaks to my second post.

It can go two ways. A, If you can't kill the powerful dragon then you aren't good enough to be the mighty warrior. In some ways that is what players are looking for, honing their game skills so they CAN kill the dragon.

What the number system does is allow more people to kill the dragon.

It's just two different ways at looking at game play. So if you "can't" then you can't. Nothing else matters but to work on your real time fighting. But agian, not everyone is going to be able to do that.

I think the problem is that some players feel a bit helpless while allowing numbers to do their work. They want to have a say in how well they do other than getting a lucky dice roll.

But again, in pnp, a dice roll really was the only fair and convenient way to determine an outcome.

Rohn

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by RabbiFang

Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be. 

 no, actually it is not, thats the point.

this is how it should be in FPS or RTS, not in RPG.

 

I think I understand the original point, and I have no problem with either type of a system.

Personally, I do prefer the twitch or FPS style of game, which is one of the reasons I play Mortal Online.  I like the greater control I have over my character, and it feels more "challenging" to me.  Having said that, even in twitch style games, there is usually a very significant RPG component to building a character - a well built, well skilled character does still have an advantage in-game.  It doesn't alway simply come down to the better twitch player, so I think it will fills the RPG definition quite well.

Wolfenpride

I wouldn't want to see MMO's move into a completely twitch based genre I agree, but I think we can do something better than the traditional stand in place/madly circle strafe + auto attack + 123 mashing.

bleyzwun

You are entitled to your opinion, but I cannot agree.  There is nothing wrong with diversity within different MMORPGs.  There is nothing wrong with the current combat system, but when almost EVERY MMO has the same system, it gets old.  Do you really want to be playing a game with identical combat as your current MMO 10 years from now?  Maybe you do.  I don't. 

Benedikt

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I wouldn't want to see MMO's move into a completely twitch based genre I agree, but I think we can do something better than the traditional stand in place/madly circle strafe + auto attack + 123 mashing.

 well i do think that best combat system for rpg is turn based one, but it doesnt work really that well in mmo

Quirhid

I'm playing all the games as a player whether I am throwing dice or aiming with my mouse. Still, it is much more satisfying to rely on your skills rather than a diceroll.

"Twitch combat" is a derogatory term that refers to twitch reflexes needed in some first-person shooters. "Active combat" is a better, neutral term for it because twitch reflexes are not required and combat that relies heavily on dicerolls is rather... well, passive.

stayontarget

I disagree, but I still will play a non twitch based game if the game is well made.   But once you go twitch based, its hard to go back to the traditional.

KenFisher

I'm a fan of twitch combat, especially ranged projectiles.  The tab-mash-mash-mash combat is tired.

 

Since this combat is already common in RPGs, why would it be excluded from those that are massively multiplayer?

xKingdomx

well I agreed to a certain extent, but would like to see Twitch combat still.

 

Firstly, because I honestly don't care how you label are a game, MMORPG? MMOFPS? MMORTS? MMOARPGFTS? to me a good game is a good game, thats all it matters to me.

 

Secondly, I never really thought RPG is constrained to a dice rolling combat. Thats just the 'traditional' rpg method, never did anyone defined a rule that RPG is all about dice rolling? Maybe there is a rule, but I wouldn't know about it. People are so confined in this box and think that MMORPG will always need to be the tab targetting will dice rolling controlling the combat. There are plenty of games out there for this combat, so let developers try new things? Or better, maybe gamers need to try new things? I can honestly say I hate general FPS game, but since I got into the Uncharted 3 multiplayer Beta, I played, and I actualy loved the game, it was fun. 

 

In the end, sure dice rolling should stay with the MMORPG, but only to the traditional MMORPG, the genre needs to evolve, to expand, to carter to the vast playerbase the MMORPG is suppose to capture.

A good game is a good game, and dice rolling is only a factor, not a decider.

ErifNevow

Now I think that twitch actually enhances the RPG feel a little, as it immerses me in the combat. I feel like I am actually there, doing something. I think that by having to aim, I am actualy contributing to the game. If I where just hitting attack buttons, well I feel like its a move.

 

I see why you say that you should not have to be good at aiming to be in an RPG, but I think that a good twitch system will make that work out much better for an RPG feel.

jadedlevir

Twitch / aim based combat has nothing to do with a game being a role playing game, thats just silly. And some of my favorite rpgs didn't have this boring combat.

And I'm tired of this traditional combat. Your literally doing the same exact thing over and over and over in every game with these "traditions" except with different skins. At least if its action based/aim based, it adds a whole new layer to the game, and monotomy is broken by random variables like player skill, aiming, ect that you will get better at as your character gets better. And there is also a lot of room for action combat systems to differ from game to game, unlike this current system(where they are pretty much carbon copies game to game). For example, just look at teras combat, compare that to darkfalls, then those two to mortal online. The combat is completely different in those games despite havin the same basis.

Why would you settle for, well eh, it works, when you could have better is what I'm saying. And adding aim based combat/free aim/action combat ect adds to other parts of the games in ways that you might not even realize. For example, imagine how different your interaction with the world would be, if that world had actual physics in it.

King_Kumquat

Originally posted by Benedikt

Hi

In last years I do see more and more people to ask for a "twitch combat" in MMORPGs. They want more control over the combat, active dodging and parrying, they want for RPG combat to be closer to FPS one, because "classic RPG combat is boring".

 

Well, I have to say, that I personally don't think, that twitch combat belongs to (MMO)RPG. I would go as far as to say, that from purely combat POW, RPG with twitch combat is not an RPG anymore.

 

Why? It is simple - because you are no longer fighting as a character in game, you are fighting as a player. You are taking away the core of RPG games - that you are playing a character which can have COMPLETELY different skillset than you have as a person. Suddenly your mighty warrior is really a "crappy" warrior, because you as a person do have crappy reflexes, or your weak mage is beating warriors in hand-to-hand combat, because you have great reflexes.

 

I am not saying that there should not be MMOs with twitch combat (hell I do like FPS-like combat in Fallen Earth ), just please don't say it should be in MMORPGs, because it IMO really doesn't belongs to them.

First and foremost; you have a poor grasp of the use of commas. I'd advise just to ignore their use all-together. Unless you can follow the comma with (and, but, not) you should really just start a new sentence.

 

That said, I think you're under-valuing the control scheme of a button mash RPG to a "key activate" RPG. Traditional game controls of all sorts have a place in all types of gaming.

RPGs were once normally grid based, then dice based, then turn based, then speed varied turn based, then map tactical RPGs sorta mixed grid and random and speed turned based RPGs, and then MMOs took elements of 3D action games and brought positioning into the mix, and then suddenly there are people who would like a little control over what their avatar does in a game.

That's hardly twitch based gaming; in fact that's a horrible term to describe action-RPGs.

Besides the Legend of Zelda series is the best series of RPG action-adventure titles ever created. If Link couldn't block with his shield, shoot an arrow, throw a boomerang, or get all slicey with the magic laser sword- the series would've died out a long time ago.

I think you're confused is all.