Combat should be like a chess game where you and your opponents try eachother out and then you go for the weak spot and win. Not pressing the same friggin buttons in the same order every combat.
Yes! This guy gets it! I made a post about this some time ago. The problem is when referring to skill in video games, people are (mostly) referring to reaction times and speed. I'm getting on in years and despite a lifetime of gaming I can no longer 'out-react' some kid who can play flight of the bumblebee with one hand while scafing hot pockets with the other.
I'll give you an example of what I'd like to see. In Starcraft (the original, have not played the sequel), there is a very competitive ladder for some real life cash competitions. I've watched quite a few of them. The problem for me is, they all play the game at maximum speed. This makes it more a game of reaction than action. I want to play at the slowest possible speed, and yet I've never found even one player who will agree to play me in this fashion. I want the game to take hours, not minutes. I can remember playing weekend long Risk or Axis and Allies games. Yes, the game took an entire weekend to finish, and it was epic.
I want to see a game where smart play and tactics will always crush twitch speed. I love the game of bridge, no amount of playing faster will help you there. That's what I want to see in at least some of my video games.
Following your Starcraft example:
I used to be a killer in that game. There were tons of players who could play really fast. However not all of them did great. When both players think and react at the same speed, the one who thinks better is usually the winning one. Even in fast twitch games, speed is not everything.
MMOs have, in general, very slow combat when compared to many other games, and, let's be honest, most of the times the guy with better gear wins, unless the better geared guy is very clumsy or the worse geared one is brilliant (I am talking PVP here). I am sorry to say your perfect non-twitch-combat game is not an MMO.
If you really are into tactics and such, and you like taking your time to think a proper strategy, you may want to switch to turn-based games. Let me suggest you try vga-planets. The game is OLD, but awesome. And a game can easily take well over a year.
I agree with you, but then I never play MMOs to be competitive, and I always avoid PvP in them. VGA planets is interesting, I played it many years ago. I also have fond memories of Empire Deluxe sessions against my roommate, and more recently Age of Empires III games against a friend.
I enjoy shoot-em-ups like Borderlands sometimes, but I really liked the strategy in a game like Thief. You had to plan and sneak very carefully, as literally one guard could kill you in a swordfight. But the payoff was awesome.
edit: Changed title to make it clear, as many here didn't even read this short OP to know what this thread is about.
This is for a discussion of a better system (than what we currently have with EQ, WoW, etc.) but one that is NOT twitch based. NOT a fps game. This is for those who actually enjoy the combat of the majority of MMORPG's, and do not desire their RPG's to turn into FPS games.
It's a nice idea to think about, given a lot of forum member's obsession with FPS style, twitch based combat. Image the typical actions are in the combat: ranged combat, melee combat, shield blocking, dodges, mobility, etc. 2D, 2.5D, or 3D. Who cares? We're talking about combat mechanics.
It doesn't necessarily have to be real-time-turn-based like Everquest or WoW, (or it CAN be like that). It's just that the ideas I want us to discuss is combat which isn't designed for ADHD FPS fanboys who want to turn RPG into FPS and who believe mouse-aiming somehow equates to > skill than strategy, group tactics, player builds, progression, etc. However, if your ideas entail a slow form of combat that is more tactical in nature, or perhaps entirely turn based-- all ideas are welcome. Just stay away from the forum obsession of "MMORPG's should be like CounterStrike!". Some of us actually enjoy havinig advantages/disadvantages and winning, because we either developed that character (which is a form of skill itself in some instances) or we beat someone better than us by pure skill.
What do you believe is the "perfect" or at least innovative MMORPG combat system- that is NOT a twitch based FPS shooter style of combat?
Go with a "tactics" based game.
It might be a little immersion breaking, but seriously, have enemies travel in groups, and when your group meets them, move the players off the map, and onto a square/hex based tactics map (Like Final Fantasy Tactics) based off of the locale you were at when you encountered them.
I'm also a fan of FF11's engine. Combat pace was slowed down tremendously from even games like EQ1. But at the same time there was alot of focus on team based tactics. With the team attacks that required players to time both weapon skills and magic, it was alot of fun.
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like. It's possible to make a non-FPS aiming game more realistic and tactical than FPS games without all the bunny hopping, warping, moving your character 180 degrees and shooting behind you in less than a microsecond, and other cheesy things you can do in a FPS game.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
lol but they are having fun doing it, and you're the fool watching videos of it up on your high horse with a misplaced sense of superiority.
You say it can be done but give zero suggestions on how. Typical self-absorbed elitist
To the OP. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement on the spell casting in Magicka. For group play it would be nice if they reinvented group spell/abilities. Lotro tried it, but it was kind of soft. Something like Chrono Trigger where you could pull off some impressive abilities with the right group.
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
lol but they are having fun doing it, and you're the fool watching videos of it up on your high horse with a misplaced sense of superiority.
It's laaaaaaame
You say it can be done but give zero suggestions on how. Typical self-absorbed elitist
You got a reading problem?
How it can be dun:
-Cover
-Concealment
-Splash
-Bullets don't shoot through objects
-Other
To the OP. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement on the spell casting in Magicka. For group play it would be nice if they reinvented group spell/abilities. Lotro tried it, but it was kind of soft. Something like Chrono Trigger where you could pull off some impressive abilities with the right group.
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
lol but they are having fun doing it, and you're the fool watching videos of it up on your high horse with a misplaced sense of superiority.
It's laaaaaaame
You say it can be done but give zero suggestions on how. Typical self-absorbed elitist
You got a reading problem?
How it can be dun:
-Cover
-Concealment
-Splash
-Bullets don't shoot through objects
-Other
To the OP. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement on the spell casting in Magicka. For group play it would be nice if they reinvented group spell/abilities. Lotro tried it, but it was kind of soft. Something like Chrono Trigger where you could pull off some impressive abilities with the right group.
You just pointed out things that are in FPS. How can they be done in RPG without using FPS. I can say that we need a renewable power source, that doesn't contribute diddley to the actual problem.
I don't know if this is the "Perfect" MMORPG Combat, but it certainly is my favorite:
Real-time aiming and click-to-hit.
Think of an FPS but with a sword.
Games like Dragon Nest and Vindictus are doing this as well as Tera Online.
The perks:
No "Exchanging hits". You can minimize your damage by avoiding the enemy's attacks.
It's simply more fun! It's MUCH better than double clicking an enemy and watching your character hit it over and over again.
It makes you feel like you're actually accomplishing something and severely reduces the "grinding" feel.
I hear this alot but care to answer a few question sconcerning the obvious issues with this system.
1. In a game like this, how would you balance the inevitable fun factor pertaining to skills/styles/spells between casters and melee characters? I.e. in this system, casting a spell always has an icon or spell effect that has a graphical indicator of use and the melee character is left out to dry. In other words, casters get Fireball level 7, and a sword guy gets??? Left click? See IMO theres a serious reward system problem in these sorts of games, which invariably favors casters with cool skills and melee with mouse clicks to take the place of weapon styles such as Mortal Strike or Mutilate from WoW.
2. How do you balance the use of weapon delay, speed, and damage when I can swing a huge lumbering 2h weapon as fast as I can a small backstabbing dirk? Ive yet to see a system you proposed that doesnt consider this fundemental problem in the 'click to combat' crowd.
3. The issue with lag and FPS (framerates not first person) are always more pronounced in this system, whereas the WoW style tab target with a global cooldown to further enhance the quickness and fluidity of combat just feels more natural compared to the Click to melee combat that most Single RPGs use, and the lack combat realism with melee combat in queued systems like DAoC and EQ2.
Ive tried and tried for over 3 years to brainstorm my way into a better sense of realism and fairness in MMO combat and nothing compares to the feeling of fluid, polished, instant, and engaging combat that WoW brings to the table. No matter how much I hate them for ruining the sandbox style of development in MMOs.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Idk if anyone has played the game Bloodline Champions, but basically its a small free game that is a pvp only game. I like the combat system in this game because you hit a button to cast a spell and in order for that spell to work you have to aim it toward the player you want and it has to him them. There is strategy to this because there are CC spells (but it still has to hit them) and you can dodge the attack by moving away quickly, so basically thats like LoSing. It's basically the same as WoW pvp but just added the aiming factor with a mouse, so there is strategy, teamwork and etc. However i have no clue how this would work in a pve game or actually now that I realize Bloodline Champions is a top down view game, so idk how that would work in a 3d environment like WoW's, ah w.e just saying i liked it lol.
The perfect MMORPG combat would be a system which relied on your raw skill alone to determine the outcome of any PvP fight, period, whether it be one on one, or five vs. one.
Nearly every MMORPG already does this.
I'm sorry, but even in greens, I can still beat twinks in WoW (a very gear-centric game). With a blue weapon and some greens, I can mostly whipe the floor with twinks in WoW unless they are an overpowered class.
If you want player skill to determine who wins in PvP, all you need is a "balanced enough" class system (or at least something to counter overpowered classes), adequate (not pathetic) gear which doesn't even have to come close to the best, and a fair enough fight via population (Definitely won't win a 10v1, but even a 2v1 or 3v1 can be fair enough.)
Really, unless the twinks are very bad (and I'm not very well geared), there aren't an overwhelming number of enemies (i'm not alone fighting the entire enemy side), or my level isn't ridiculously low (rarely happens) I whipe the floor in PvP solely because of skill.
So to wish for a system that relies totally on "raw skill alone" (Whatever that is...as it is entirely one's own opinion and perspective as to what qualifies as skill) assuming you mean reflexes, mouse clicks, and game/character/class knowledge, is just silly, because every game is already like that.
It is very very rare that I have gear so inferior to even the best that I can't beat them. Usually even when I'm badly geared, it's still good enough to compete. And although it depends on the game (I was a lot better with a death robe + GM halberd in UO than in whites/greens in WoW) it still doesn't make too much of a difference.
Doesn't really matter the genre either. I am always in the top of any FPS game I play after only a few hours of playing it. Likewise, I am almost always in the top of any MMORPG I play, especially if I spend a few hours leveling or to browse the auction house for mediocre gear.
Why do I mention this? Not to brag, but to say that I am living evidence that MMORPG's require just as much "raw player skill" as any other game does-- especially level bracket based battlground games. I sincerely believe that players who whine that gear != skill are merely upset that someone more skilled beat them, so they blame their lack of skill on "gear being so important".
Yes, some games have a ridiculous tilt in the balance scale of some classes, who when twinked and behind an adequate player, become extremely difficult even for a skilled player-- but really if you're good enough, even if you lose 4/5 of the battles, the fact you can destroy that twink 1 of those times because you're a better player just goes to show that even in the worst of circumstances "Raw player skill" is still king. No matter what, really.
I think youre kind of missing the point of "raw skill alone". Generally when people refer to that, theyre referring to the skill of the player alone, not the skill of their character. Having knowledge of all your skills in a normal MMO such as WoW is fine, but using them = your characters skill, not your own personal skill. Whereas in other types of game slike twitch and FPS games, its more of a matter of the players own capabilities to aim accurately, control their fire (not stand there spraying a full clip like a noob expecting to pick someone off at a distance, using short controlled burts to reduce the effects of recoil, etc), their ability to react quickly to enemies closing in and knowing the quickest ways in and out of tight areas to outmanuever & outsmart their enemies, and various other things.
A few of those can apply to some MMOs, but typically its a case where you can have all the knowledge in the world about your character and its skills, but you can still only achieve what your elimited to by your characters own stats, gear, etc. No matte rhow good of a player you are, youre still confined to certain limits because of those things. Hence character skill vs player skill.
There are some games that do a very good mix of both though, where youve got a combination of character skill that can be enhanced or hindered greatly by player skill. Typically those are the more action oriented games though, or games which require more complex combat then press 1 button and watch your character kill something (games with complex combos, movement effects, etc).
I see. Perhaps I did not entirely understand, so thanks.
Still, I have never really played a game that doesn't require Player Skill to be the separator between good and bad players.
Perhaps I just don't understand, because I can snipe a tiny moving dot with a realistic sniper rifle where the enemy has to walk into my bullet, in FPS games like Red Orchestra-- or top the damage, healing, or objective charts in any MMORPG.
Either way, it's all because of my player skill. The fact I'm using a "character's skill" or a characters gun is pretty irrelevant.
So unless you are talking about Virtual Reality, where we literally have to handle the gun ourselves-- there is little point in this discussion. The whine and desire for a game that uses "Raw Player Skill" is inherently flawed solely for the fact we don't have any Virtual Reality games played by the majority of gamers.
If you really want to try to convince me that using my Hunter's Serpent Sting ability in WoW is any different than using my Sniper's scope and rifle in Red Orchestra or my soldier's M4 rifle or Deagle pistols in Call of Duty-- you're going to have a very hard time, because neither is actually me. It's just me playing a character, who has an ability.
Whether that ability is Bazooka via Left-Click, Rifle or Machine Gun via holding Left Click, or an ability I press "4" to activate which shoots a bazooka-like fireball, it really is irrelevant. I usually end up topping the charts either way, so trying to convince me they are different in relation to "Raw Player Skill" is just silly.
You still seem to have a problem grasping it. Nobody said anything about what buttons are being pressed = skill.
To make it very simple, you using your Hunter's Serpent Sting in WoW, its ability to hit an enemy, how much damage it does, when it will hit them, etc is ALL based on your character's numbers (skills, gear, etc). In an FPS youre doing things like leading targets (firing slightly ahead of them so that when the bullet reaches that distance it is where the target is, not where he was when you fired it), timing your grenades to detonate at just the right time, aiming for specific parts of the body, using different tactics to take advantage of cover for yourself while reducing the amount of cover an enemy can use, etc.
In WoW, its a game of numbers based on your character's stats vs your enemy's stats. Very little actual skill involved. Your attacks will eithe rhit or miss based on thos enumbers and nothing else. Any asshat can go do something like read a guid eon the best build to have and exactly what rotation to us etheir skills int o maximize their power.
In an FPS its a matter of the player using precision & timing to even hit a target. A guide won't help you much here. You have to learn how to control your aim, nobody else can do it for you. As an example, many people i used to play FPS games with could only handle their sensitivity on medium settings, setting it to high made them lose control because they couldnt make fine adjustments to their aim in the middle of a battle, but on the other hand i always set mine to high and through practice adjust to the way the controls move so that im able to make fine adjustments and keep racking up headshots when i need to while also being able to quickly whip around in a different direction to pick off an enemy that isnt directly in front of me.
DCUO system or the Blade and Soul system that are coming out are 2 good alternatives. As of yet, DCUO probaly has hands down one of the best combat systems of any MMO.
You still seem to have a problem grasping it. Nobody said anything about what buttons are being pressed = skill.
To make it very simple, you using your Hunter's Serpent Sting in WoW, its ability to hit an enemy, how much damage it does, when it will hit them, etc is ALL based on your character's numbers (skills, gear, etc). In an FPS youre doing things like leading targets (firing slightly ahead of them so that when the bullet reaches that distance it is where the target is, not where he was when you fired it), timing your grenades to detonate at just the right time, aiming for specific parts of the body, using different tactics to take advantage of cover for yourself while reducing the amount of cover an enemy can use, etc.
In WoW, its a game of numbers based on your character's stats vs your enemy's stats. Very little actual skill involved. Your attacks will eithe rhit or miss based on thos enumbers and nothing else. Any asshat can go do something like read a guid eon the best build to have and exactly what rotation to us etheir skills int o maximize their power.
In an FPS its a matter of the player using precision & timing to even hit a target. A guide won't help you much here. You have to learn how to control your aim, nobody else can do it for you. As an example, many people i used to play FPS games with could only handle their sensitivity on medium settings, setting it to high made them lose control because they couldnt make fine adjustments to their aim in the middle of a battle, but on the other hand i always set mine to high and through practice adjust to the way the controls move so that im able to make fine adjustments and keep racking up headshots when i need to while also being able to quickly whip around in a different direction to pick off an enemy that isnt directly in front of me.
Idk man idk, its not like WoW pvp is easy, it doesn't necessary take "skill", but you got to be fast and smart. Smart in the way that you have to predict what moves the opponent is going to make and when to LoS it and etc. Fast as in well fast lol. Not only that, coordination with your group of who your gonna attack and CC what. This part is probably the most important because if you hit the wrong target its game over, and all these things are decided in matters of seconds. You just need to break 1500 and you'll see its not as easy as you think.
-Wait a second i just noticed, you're almost talking about duels here? lol idk that isn't really what this game is balanced about if you haven't already noticed. its more balanced for 3v3, and even then there are some counter teams you'll get but you can always beat them IF you are better with the things i mentioned above.
The fun from FPS comes from tactics, which is nonexistant in wow-clones. It doesn't necesarilly have to be modern or sci fi shooter, anyone who has played Oblivion knows what I'm talking about.
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
lol but they are having fun doing it, and you're the fool watching videos of it up on your high horse with a misplaced sense of superiority.
It's laaaaaaame
You say it can be done but give zero suggestions on how. Typical self-absorbed elitist
You got a reading problem?
How it can be dun:
-Cover
-Concealment
-Splash
-Bullets don't shoot through objects
-Other
To the OP. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement on the spell casting in Magicka. For group play it would be nice if they reinvented group spell/abilities. Lotro tried it, but it was kind of soft. Something like Chrono Trigger where you could pull off some impressive abilities with the right group.
You just pointed out things that are in FPS. How can they be done in RPG without using FPS. I can say that we need a renewable power source, that doesn't contribute diddley to the actual problem.
Like developers you lack imagination.
How to keep bullets from flying through world objects? Hmmm let me think reaaaal hard about that one, hmmmm, my brain is going to explode on this one. How about not letting bullets from flying through world objects for one thing, you need line of sight. And as a bonus how about we let characters crouch or go prone so it's easier to take cover.
SImply the best non-fps spellcasting combat I've seen,
Who cares about mana, when bad spellcasting will simply kill yourself
Fire spells act like fire, lighting will have lighting attributes, water kills fire (funny no mmorpg even does this, simple logic)
As for melee combat:
Witcher 2 or Assassin's Creed
Well they require you to manual aim, but I don't consider them twitchy, since there are no headshots or what not, they are simply targetting mechanics. And no auto-attack, this should only be enable for disabled players for balancing.
Witcher 2 is probably one of the most tactical and brutal combat for RPG, your 'twitch' simply will not save you from any fights, if you don't go in with set traps and combat plans, prepare to get faceplant in 3 seconds (no exaggeration)
As for Assassin's Creed, I like the idea of stealth combat, stealth isn't about going invisible like 99% of MMOG out there, it is about placement and prediction, tactics and strategy, you have to move in on your target considering where they will move, hide and execute (this is based on the multiplayer, single players is fun but its simpler since its only AI)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I really liked where this was going until it became a "Twitch based combat is better!" argument again.
Let's return to the OP topic please, very interesting posts!
So far I think we all agree...
1) Teamwork should be very important. Either through tactics or een special group abilities. A good team should always win because of cooperation and strategy.
2) Tactics and picking the right ability at the right moment should be more important than mindless spamming the same abilities repeatedly. Skills should be based off of what you or your enemy has done most recently (Parry, Block, Miss, etc.)
3) Dynamic Skills could help filter through these situational abilities. Perhaps your toolbar adjusts basd on your desires and reactive situations. You parry? Some abilities pop up and you can perform one. Dynamic also in the way of there being many more roles than just DPS (or healer). Mana cracks, CC, debuffs, buffs-- the list goes on.
4) Some turn based timing. Although I believe players still want real time (not turn based) combat, the delay between what you can do means picking smarter, balancing latency issues, and ny making combat slower, it makes it more interesting and balanced. This doesn't necessarily mean having slower "turns" but perhaps a global cooldown that is a bit longer to prevent spamming abilities and encourage tactical choices.
I think a "perfect" combat system would tailor towards both a slow almost turn-based combat AND a fast-paced spam fest. What do I mean?
Combat and the feel of it could be determined through what type of weapon you pick.
Slow Polearm- Combat is slower, and thus more latency friendly and tactical. Each blow does a great deal of power, but is very slow. Pick your ability wisely.
Dual wielding daggers-- Combat is fast-paced. Constant attacks. For each 1 normal attack, you must use or queue up 3 abilities. You practically spam abilities one after the other in a frenzy. Alternatively, you pick "sets" of abilities composed of 1-5 abilities which can be linked together in combos. Upon your "turn" in real time, your character performs these queue'd abilities in succession very quickly.
Sword-- Perhaps somewhere between the twoGreater than the slow 1, but less than the fast 3-5.
You still seem to have a problem grasping it. Nobody said anything about what buttons are being pressed = skill.
To make it very simple, you using your Hunter's Serpent Sting in WoW, its ability to hit an enemy, how much damage it does, when it will hit them, etc is ALL based on your character's numbers (skills, gear, etc). In an FPS youre doing things like leading targets (firing slightly ahead of them so that when the bullet reaches that distance it is where the target is, not where he was when you fired it), timing your grenades to detonate at just the right time, aiming for specific parts of the body, using different tactics to take advantage of cover for yourself while reducing the amount of cover an enemy can use, etc.
In WoW, its a game of numbers based on your character's stats vs your enemy's stats. Very little actual skill involved. Your attacks will eithe rhit or miss based on thos enumbers and nothing else. Any asshat can go do something like read a guid eon the best build to have and exactly what rotation to us etheir skills int o maximize their power.
In an FPS its a matter of the player using precision & timing to even hit a target. A guide won't help you much here. You have to learn how to control your aim, nobody else can do it for you. As an example, many people i used to play FPS games with could only handle their sensitivity on medium settings, setting it to high made them lose control because they couldnt make fine adjustments to their aim in the middle of a battle, but on the other hand i always set mine to high and through practice adjust to the way the controls move so that im able to make fine adjustments and keep racking up headshots when i need to while also being able to quickly whip around in a different direction to pick off an enemy that isnt directly in front of me.
Idk man idk, its not like WoW pvp is easy, it doesn't necessary take "skill", but you got to be fast and smart. Smart in the way that you have to predict what moves the opponent is going to make and when to LoS it and etc. Fast as in well fast lol. Not only that, coordination with your group of who your gonna attack and CC what. This part is probably the most important because if you hit the wrong target its game over, and all these things are decided in matters of seconds. You just need to break 1500 and you'll see its not as easy as you think.
-Wait a second i just noticed, you're almost talking about duels here? lol idk that isn't really what this game is balanced about if you haven't already noticed. its more balanced for 3v3, and even then there are some counter teams you'll get but you can always beat them IF you are better with the things i mentioned above.
2 things:
1) how on earth did you come up with the idea i was referring to duels? do combat systems magically change into a completely different method of calculating damage, hits, etc? They are mechanics of the game itself, regardless of where or how you are fighting.
2) coordination with your group, etc is a whole seperate "team skill" issue. we are talking about individual skill being involved in types of combat systems. a team is a team no matter what game youre playing, and working together is needed in any of them. kind of a moot point.
Anyway, i never said no MMO takes ANY skill to play. Yes there is some skill involved, but the entire discussion started in reference to games relying MORE on player skill, rather than gear & stats. The more heavily your game relies on numbers (stats, levels, gear, etc) the less player skill based it gets, because no matter what a player does, it all relies on random chances & number calculations. You can be the greatest player to ever touch WoW, but it doesnt matter when you get a bad number roll and fail your chance to hit your enemy. As opposed games going more the twitch & FPS route, where there is less math/stats involved and it instead relies on you the player manually aiming & firing etc, those games are more player skill based. There is no calculating differences in stats between the characters and then getting the outcome of those stats. The outcome is a direct result of the players own actions. You shoot a guy in the face, they get shot in the face.... not "hey i shot that guy in the face but my to hit roll sucked and somehow his face magically shifted out of existence and my spell passed right through it. let me try again and hope i get a better roll this time".
I really liked where this was going until it became a "Twitch based combat is better!" argument again.
Let's return to the OP topic please, very interesting posts!
So far I think we all agree...
1) Teamwork should be very important. Either through tactics or een special group abilities. A good team should always win because of cooperation and strategy.
2) Tactics and picking the right ability at the right moment should be more important than mindless spamming the same abilities repeatedly. Skills should be based off of what you or your enemy has done most recently (Parry, Block, Miss, etc.)
3) Dynamic Skills could help filter through these situational abilities. Perhaps your toolbar adjusts basd on your desires and reactive situations. You parry? Some abilities pop up and you can perform one. Dynamic also in the way of there being many more roles than just DPS (or healer). Mana cracks, CC, debuffs, buffs-- the list goes on.
4) Some turn based timing. Although I believe players still want real time (not turn based) combat, the delay between what you can do means picking smarter, balancing latency issues, and ny making combat slower, it makes it more interesting and balanced. This doesn't necessarily mean having slower "turns" but perhaps a global cooldown that is a bit longer to prevent spamming abilities and encourage tactical choices.
I think a "perfect" combat system would tailor towards both a slow almost turn-based combat AND a fast-paced spam fest. What do I mean?
Combat and the feel of it could be determined through what type of weapon you pick.
Slow Polearm- Combat is slower, and thus more latency friendly and tactical. Each blow does a great deal of power, but is very slow. Pick your ability wisely.
Dual wielding daggers-- Combat is fast-paced. Constant attacks. For each 1 normal attack, you must use or queue up 3 abilities. You practically spam abilities one after the other in a frenzy. Alternatively, you pick "sets" of abilities composed of 1-5 abilities which can be linked together in combos. Upon your "turn" in real time, your character performs these queue'd abilities in succession very quickly.
Sword-- Perhaps somewhere between the twoGreater than the slow 1, but less than the fast 3-5.
Sounds like a wow clone to me. There's a plethora of games out there that does that, chose one.
SImply the best non-fps spellcasting combat I've seen,
Who cares about mana, when bad spellcasting will simply kill yourself
Fire spells act like fire, lighting will have lighting attributes, water kills fire (funny no mmorpg even does this, simple logic)
As for melee combat:
Witcher 2 or Assassin's Creed
Well they require you to manual aim, but I don't consider them twitchy, since there are no headshots or what not, they are simply targetting mechanics. And no auto-attack, this should only be enable for disabled players for balancing.
Witcher 2 is probably one of the most tactical and brutal combat for RPG, your 'twitch' simply will not save you from any fights, if you don't go in with set traps and combat plans, prepare to get faceplant in 3 seconds (no exaggeration)
As for Assassin's Creed, I like the idea of stealth combat, stealth isn't about going invisible like 99% of MMOG out there, it is about placement and prediction, tactics and strategy, you have to move in on your target considering where they will move, hide and execute (this is based on the multiplayer, single players is fun but its simpler since its only AI)
I agree that witcher 2 is nice game but combat is by far not best its even one of worsed ever and oh so console like its not good at all.
It doesn't necessarily have to be real-time-turn-based like Everquest or WoW, (or it CAN be like that). It's just that the ideas I want us to discuss is combat which isn't designed for ADHD FPS fanboys who want to turn RPG into FPS and who believe mouse-aiming somehow equates to > skill than strategy, group tactics, player builds, progression, etc. However, if your ideas entail a slow form of combat that is more tactical in nature, or perhaps entirely turn based-- all ideas are welcome.
Now imagine this... strategy, group tactics, player builds, progression, etc. + aiming. Who would require more skill? everything you mentioned -aiming or +aiming... Just think about it. Well i know the answer +aiming. And you just cant disagree
OP, a computer game simply can't have a non twitch combat system, unless it is pure turn based. And most computer game won't be turn based since they evlove quiet a bit from usual board games which are, a computer game is much more about action.
It is like asking why our army don't have sword anymore especially the soldier that don't like guns? Poeple would probably laugh at your question.
And i don't want to offend you when i say that. It is a question of evolution, board games are tunr based, computer games then implemented and enhanced the old turn based model. Twitch (fps) is a model that take all the adventage of computer possibilites and broke the link with old gaming, which mmo didn't do because they are quiet traditional.
You cannot simulated a proper combat without twitch, it make no sense since real combat is about twitch too.
The best most accurate and most fun combat system is only in WOW, fast , responsive, camera angles are perfect, the way the spells work, the sounds fit perfectly...
Comments
I agree with you, but then I never play MMOs to be competitive, and I always avoid PvP in them. VGA planets is interesting, I played it many years ago. I also have fond memories of Empire Deluxe sessions against my roommate, and more recently Age of Empires III games against a friend.
I enjoy shoot-em-ups like Borderlands sometimes, but I really liked the strategy in a game like Thief. You had to plan and sneak very carefully, as literally one guard could kill you in a swordfight. But the payoff was awesome.
lets see how www.primeonline.com combat system works out : )
Go with a "tactics" based game.
It might be a little immersion breaking, but seriously, have enemies travel in groups, and when your group meets them, move the players off the map, and onto a square/hex based tactics map (Like Final Fantasy Tactics) based off of the locale you were at when you encountered them.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
A better variant of Atlantica Online's combat style might work.
Personally I prefer the infusion of twitch skill that tab-targeting-based MMORPGs provide.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm also a fan of FF11's engine. Combat pace was slowed down tremendously from even games like EQ1. But at the same time there was alot of focus on team based tactics. With the team attacks that required players to time both weapon skills and magic, it was alot of fun.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Things you can do in FPS but can't do in RPG: Cover, concealment, splash, avoid, can't shoot through world objects, and the large scale combat doesn't generally look like 50 guys randomly running around like ants cause they have to worry about crossfire and other tactical considerations.
All these things can be done in a RPG without using twich aiming, if a developer has the imagination and talent. It's what I always wanted Pre-CU SWG to be like. It's possible to make a non-FPS aiming game more realistic and tactical than FPS games without all the bunny hopping, warping, moving your character 180 degrees and shooting behind you in less than a microsecond, and other cheesy things you can do in a FPS game.
I've seen large scale pvp combat in your wow-clones, it's embarrasing to look at and they make lousy videos for youtube.
lol but they are having fun doing it, and you're the fool watching videos of it up on your high horse with a misplaced sense of superiority.
You say it can be done but give zero suggestions on how. Typical self-absorbed elitist
To the OP. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement on the spell casting in Magicka. For group play it would be nice if they reinvented group spell/abilities. Lotro tried it, but it was kind of soft. Something like Chrono Trigger where you could pull off some impressive abilities with the right group.
You just pointed out things that are in FPS. How can they be done in RPG without using FPS. I can say that we need a renewable power source, that doesn't contribute diddley to the actual problem.
I hear this alot but care to answer a few question sconcerning the obvious issues with this system.
1. In a game like this, how would you balance the inevitable fun factor pertaining to skills/styles/spells between casters and melee characters? I.e. in this system, casting a spell always has an icon or spell effect that has a graphical indicator of use and the melee character is left out to dry. In other words, casters get Fireball level 7, and a sword guy gets??? Left click? See IMO theres a serious reward system problem in these sorts of games, which invariably favors casters with cool skills and melee with mouse clicks to take the place of weapon styles such as Mortal Strike or Mutilate from WoW.
2. How do you balance the use of weapon delay, speed, and damage when I can swing a huge lumbering 2h weapon as fast as I can a small backstabbing dirk? Ive yet to see a system you proposed that doesnt consider this fundemental problem in the 'click to combat' crowd.
3. The issue with lag and FPS (framerates not first person) are always more pronounced in this system, whereas the WoW style tab target with a global cooldown to further enhance the quickness and fluidity of combat just feels more natural compared to the Click to melee combat that most Single RPGs use, and the lack combat realism with melee combat in queued systems like DAoC and EQ2.
Ive tried and tried for over 3 years to brainstorm my way into a better sense of realism and fairness in MMO combat and nothing compares to the feeling of fluid, polished, instant, and engaging combat that WoW brings to the table. No matter how much I hate them for ruining the sandbox style of development in MMOs.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Idk if anyone has played the game Bloodline Champions, but basically its a small free game that is a pvp only game. I like the combat system in this game because you hit a button to cast a spell and in order for that spell to work you have to aim it toward the player you want and it has to him them. There is strategy to this because there are CC spells (but it still has to hit them) and you can dodge the attack by moving away quickly, so basically thats like LoSing. It's basically the same as WoW pvp but just added the aiming factor with a mouse, so there is strategy, teamwork and etc. However i have no clue how this would work in a pve game or actually now that I realize Bloodline Champions is a top down view game, so idk how that would work in a 3d environment like WoW's, ah w.e just saying i liked it lol.
You still seem to have a problem grasping it. Nobody said anything about what buttons are being pressed = skill.
To make it very simple, you using your Hunter's Serpent Sting in WoW, its ability to hit an enemy, how much damage it does, when it will hit them, etc is ALL based on your character's numbers (skills, gear, etc). In an FPS youre doing things like leading targets (firing slightly ahead of them so that when the bullet reaches that distance it is where the target is, not where he was when you fired it), timing your grenades to detonate at just the right time, aiming for specific parts of the body, using different tactics to take advantage of cover for yourself while reducing the amount of cover an enemy can use, etc.
In WoW, its a game of numbers based on your character's stats vs your enemy's stats. Very little actual skill involved. Your attacks will eithe rhit or miss based on thos enumbers and nothing else. Any asshat can go do something like read a guid eon the best build to have and exactly what rotation to us etheir skills int o maximize their power.
In an FPS its a matter of the player using precision & timing to even hit a target. A guide won't help you much here. You have to learn how to control your aim, nobody else can do it for you. As an example, many people i used to play FPS games with could only handle their sensitivity on medium settings, setting it to high made them lose control because they couldnt make fine adjustments to their aim in the middle of a battle, but on the other hand i always set mine to high and through practice adjust to the way the controls move so that im able to make fine adjustments and keep racking up headshots when i need to while also being able to quickly whip around in a different direction to pick off an enemy that isnt directly in front of me.
DCUO system or the Blade and Soul system that are coming out are 2 good alternatives. As of yet, DCUO probaly has hands down one of the best combat systems of any MMO.
Idk man idk, its not like WoW pvp is easy, it doesn't necessary take "skill", but you got to be fast and smart. Smart in the way that you have to predict what moves the opponent is going to make and when to LoS it and etc. Fast as in well fast lol. Not only that, coordination with your group of who your gonna attack and CC what. This part is probably the most important because if you hit the wrong target its game over, and all these things are decided in matters of seconds. You just need to break 1500 and you'll see its not as easy as you think.
-Wait a second i just noticed, you're almost talking about duels here? lol idk that isn't really what this game is balanced about if you haven't already noticed. its more balanced for 3v3, and even then there are some counter teams you'll get but you can always beat them IF you are better with the things i mentioned above.
The fun from FPS comes from tactics, which is nonexistant in wow-clones. It doesn't necesarilly have to be modern or sci fi shooter, anyone who has played Oblivion knows what I'm talking about.
Like developers you lack imagination.
How to keep bullets from flying through world objects? Hmmm let me think reaaaal hard about that one, hmmmm, my brain is going to explode on this one. How about not letting bullets from flying through world objects for one thing, you need line of sight. And as a bonus how about we let characters crouch or go prone so it's easier to take cover.
One word: Magicka
SImply the best non-fps spellcasting combat I've seen,
Who cares about mana, when bad spellcasting will simply kill yourself
Fire spells act like fire, lighting will have lighting attributes, water kills fire (funny no mmorpg even does this, simple logic)
As for melee combat:
Witcher 2 or Assassin's Creed
Well they require you to manual aim, but I don't consider them twitchy, since there are no headshots or what not, they are simply targetting mechanics. And no auto-attack, this should only be enable for disabled players for balancing.
Witcher 2 is probably one of the most tactical and brutal combat for RPG, your 'twitch' simply will not save you from any fights, if you don't go in with set traps and combat plans, prepare to get faceplant in 3 seconds (no exaggeration)
As for Assassin's Creed, I like the idea of stealth combat, stealth isn't about going invisible like 99% of MMOG out there, it is about placement and prediction, tactics and strategy, you have to move in on your target considering where they will move, hide and execute (this is based on the multiplayer, single players is fun but its simpler since its only AI)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I really liked where this was going until it became a "Twitch based combat is better!" argument again.
Let's return to the OP topic please, very interesting posts!
So far I think we all agree...
1) Teamwork should be very important. Either through tactics or een special group abilities. A good team should always win because of cooperation and strategy.
2) Tactics and picking the right ability at the right moment should be more important than mindless spamming the same abilities repeatedly. Skills should be based off of what you or your enemy has done most recently (Parry, Block, Miss, etc.)
3) Dynamic Skills could help filter through these situational abilities. Perhaps your toolbar adjusts basd on your desires and reactive situations. You parry? Some abilities pop up and you can perform one. Dynamic also in the way of there being many more roles than just DPS (or healer). Mana cracks, CC, debuffs, buffs-- the list goes on.
4) Some turn based timing. Although I believe players still want real time (not turn based) combat, the delay between what you can do means picking smarter, balancing latency issues, and ny making combat slower, it makes it more interesting and balanced. This doesn't necessarily mean having slower "turns" but perhaps a global cooldown that is a bit longer to prevent spamming abilities and encourage tactical choices.
I think a "perfect" combat system would tailor towards both a slow almost turn-based combat AND a fast-paced spam fest. What do I mean?
Combat and the feel of it could be determined through what type of weapon you pick.
Slow Polearm- Combat is slower, and thus more latency friendly and tactical. Each blow does a great deal of power, but is very slow. Pick your ability wisely.
Dual wielding daggers-- Combat is fast-paced. Constant attacks. For each 1 normal attack, you must use or queue up 3 abilities. You practically spam abilities one after the other in a frenzy. Alternatively, you pick "sets" of abilities composed of 1-5 abilities which can be linked together in combos. Upon your "turn" in real time, your character performs these queue'd abilities in succession very quickly.
Sword-- Perhaps somewhere between the twoGreater than the slow 1, but less than the fast 3-5.
2 things:
1) how on earth did you come up with the idea i was referring to duels? do combat systems magically change into a completely different method of calculating damage, hits, etc? They are mechanics of the game itself, regardless of where or how you are fighting.
2) coordination with your group, etc is a whole seperate "team skill" issue. we are talking about individual skill being involved in types of combat systems. a team is a team no matter what game youre playing, and working together is needed in any of them. kind of a moot point.
Anyway, i never said no MMO takes ANY skill to play. Yes there is some skill involved, but the entire discussion started in reference to games relying MORE on player skill, rather than gear & stats. The more heavily your game relies on numbers (stats, levels, gear, etc) the less player skill based it gets, because no matter what a player does, it all relies on random chances & number calculations. You can be the greatest player to ever touch WoW, but it doesnt matter when you get a bad number roll and fail your chance to hit your enemy. As opposed games going more the twitch & FPS route, where there is less math/stats involved and it instead relies on you the player manually aiming & firing etc, those games are more player skill based. There is no calculating differences in stats between the characters and then getting the outcome of those stats. The outcome is a direct result of the players own actions. You shoot a guy in the face, they get shot in the face.... not "hey i shot that guy in the face but my to hit roll sucked and somehow his face magically shifted out of existence and my spell passed right through it. let me try again and hope i get a better roll this time".
Sounds like a wow clone to me. There's a plethora of games out there that does that, chose one.
Why you so disgust and obsessed with twitch based fps style mmo's?
There only maybe 0.5% of mmo's on market that have twitch based FPS so realy dont see why its your NIGHTMARE???
Btw Darkfall is a great TWITCH BASED FPS game you should try it its in every way superior to WoW and other themeparks.
I agree that witcher 2 is nice game but combat is by far not best its even one of worsed ever and oh so console like its not good at all.
Now imagine this... strategy, group tactics, player builds, progression, etc. + aiming. Who would require more skill? everything you mentioned -aiming or +aiming... Just think about it. Well i know the answer +aiming. And you just cant disagree
OP, a computer game simply can't have a non twitch combat system, unless it is pure turn based. And most computer game won't be turn based since they evlove quiet a bit from usual board games which are, a computer game is much more about action.
It is like asking why our army don't have sword anymore especially the soldier that don't like guns? Poeple would probably laugh at your question.
And i don't want to offend you when i say that. It is a question of evolution, board games are tunr based, computer games then implemented and enhanced the old turn based model. Twitch (fps) is a model that take all the adventage of computer possibilites and broke the link with old gaming, which mmo didn't do because they are quiet traditional.
You cannot simulated a proper combat without twitch, it make no sense since real combat is about twitch too.
The best most accurate and most fun combat system is only in WOW, fast , responsive, camera angles are perfect, the way the spells work, the sounds fit perfectly...