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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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and having to compete with hordes of children (not to mention chinese farmers) who have ungodly, unhealthy, unfair and downright inhuman amounts of "free time" to dump into the game to achieve "godhood" is somehow... .. .different?
better?
Lets see... pay to win vs. timesinkfromhell to win .....
As soon as you figure out another fun, healthy, fair way to make it so that my working civilized, have-a-life adult arse can compete against hormone-ridden angsty teens in their well-to-do parents basement on summer break or the weekends grinding away hundreds of hours a week just so they can be "l33t" .....
Is the concept of pay-to-win appealing?
no.
Is the concept of timesinking-to-win appealing?
no.
which do i choose as the least evil of the two?
sorry, i choose pay-to-win.
at least they are funding the game.
So, in conclusion,
Did we lose our way when things slipped to pay-to-win?
No sir. We 'lost our way' when MMO's became a matter of 'loser-to-win' (as in no life)
IMHO pay-to-win merely balances the scale.
They both are problems, but in this case, I believe pay-to-win helps balance out (at least some) the loser-to-win phenomenon.
Just IMHO.
Troll post on the D3 forums suggested limiting accounts to only 2-3 hours total playtime. That way, ppl that have loads of free time or no job are on a level playing field with ppl that have to work, etc. Some ppl have excess free time, some have excess money they don't mind spending. Fair is fair, right? Don't want ppl to have advantages.
As you might guess, ppl with loads of free time didn't like the idea. What makes one more fair over the other?
I am adult. I don't have unlimited free time. I don't agree with you. I really loathe this kind of opinion.
All players sacrifice something when spending too much time in a game. Health, social skills, many rl experiences ,etc They are paying for it even if they are not realizing this.
Besides ever heard of a sentence "cure is worse than disease" ? . P2W is ideal example.
I agree so much. One of best post lately. Exactly same how I feel about p2w , microtransactions and all similar c**p.
I play World of tanks at the moment. It has some aspects of both. You can grind your tank up to teir 10, or buy a teir 8 tank and pay to push xp from that tank to xp up to a teir 10.
Either way the end result is the same tank.
Yes there is 'gold ammo', but good clans can 'win' gold(paid denomination) by also holding sectors on the map.
In the end, skill is what counts, but you can get to endgame with 'leet gear' by paying with your life, your wallet, or both.
I don't loathe you for your opinion, you have a right to it. I loathe the positive-reinforcement of life-crushing, relationship-destroying addicted sacrifice to a hobby.
I loathe that above and beyond anything.
Pay-to-win is at least realistic in that, IMHO, it resets the MMO industry into reality.
Lets argue that pay-to-win isn't real life, howabouts? XD
We have no one to blame but ourselves. Even though the hardcore cry and whine about it, they'll still buy the P2W items( eg Battlefield Heroes). Its working because people are becoming lazy and have less time to spare now. Not saying everyone is lazy now a days, just most =]
I am not against P2W in games like LoL or World of Tanks. They are not immersive enough for p2w to make a diffrence. Anyway I just play them to shoot or slash for an hour or so I don't care about item shop there.
I am talking about mmorpg's only. They are wholly diffrent thing.
P2W is realistic is brings real life into the game I agree. That is one of main things why I hate p2w.
I play games to cut myself from real world for a while , exactly same liek reading a book or watching good movie or going out with a friends to have some fun.
Real life things like money , issues in work and business , family thing ,etc jsut normal life things everyone has and have to deal with on daily basis - I don't want to think about them when I play a game , becasue I want to relax.
You admit yourself that P2W is bringging real life into game. That exactly what I hate about p2w , item stores, etc.
Well, as we all know time equals money.
Hence games that requires huge investments of time to excel equals pay to win.
The only difference now is that there is a long route which is the cheapest and the short route which is the more expensive. But dont be fooled, both are pay to win as time equals money!
if youre fun time = money i truely feel sad for you.
your free time that you use to entertain yourself in a way thats meant to help you relax and feel good, should in no way be linked to money
work time = money, thats the one that should have money attached to it, unless you are volunteering to make the world a better place
IMHO logic fail.
Lots of money = work time only when you want to. "free time" 100%.
working on the weekends, second job, no free time is usually associated with not-enough-dam-money.
as a matter of fact, the 'amount of potential free time and what you can do in said free time' is, i would argue, directly related to your amount of money.
There is a reason some of the snob ultra-rich refer to people who have to earn a paycheck as "wage whores".
money = time and time is the core commodity that is the rareist and most valuable.
The only thing that money cannot buy you is happiness....
..but what that adage doesn't say is that money can make it so you can do whatever the frak you want whenever you want and pursue happiness however you want fully for 100% of your life.
Free time fully has money attached to it, even if it is just paying the electric bill so you can have electricity on the weekend to boot up your computer.
btw
time=money
girls = time x money
girls = money x money
money x money = (money)^2
money is the root of all evil ( money = (evil)^1/2 )
therefore ... girls = evil .
I still haven't seen a compelling argument for why or to win what exactly. It's not like this is an MMO, or competitive e sport PVP game. Some people want to pay for "cheats", some want to play hard core mode with no access to RMT and possibillity in the future to get permadeath arenas.
There is no hub area (at least for now) to show off your gear, there is no teared content requiring pay to access. Blizzard is taking a fixed amount for every listing and sale, rather than a percentage and they are not selling items, they are just giving you the option, to either buy gear, or sell it yourself.
RMT is not the only AH, thers is gold AH too.
And last, it's all up to you how you decide to play, if you really mean what you say, you'll probably have the achievment that you finished the game on hardest difficulty in hardcore mode and that way, you can't buy shit for real cash, so ask again, what's the problem?
Oh, and as for PVP, all stats are hidden and it's a similar matchmaking system that's used in Starcraft 2, making sure that nine times out of ten, your are fighting someone of your own skill and gear level.
I certainly have no issue if a game lets a player pay for an item as long as it is also obtainable through in-game means (raids or w/e) and is official.
How people spend their money to play a game is up to them. If the vast majority wants a P2W model, that's where the money is. No point in arguing. Free Market / Capitalism is working as intended.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Oh, look on the bright side, if you're an American watching the economy tank, you can always look forward to a bright future farming items and gold for your wealthy Chinese overlords.
Ni hao, oh benevolent rulers! We also offer power leveling services, fast, professional, and cheap!
In all seriousness, I don't see how anyone, Chinese, American, or anyone else, is going to make decent money in Diablo 3 while trying to compete on the auction house with the aforementioned basement dwelling kids. It will all be dirt cheap and therefore not worth the bother of farming in an attempt to make a profit.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Actually, someone knows very little about the 'sport' of bowling.
A typical bowling ball can range from 50 to 250. US. Some bowlers buy one cheap ball (the hobbiest as you put it) and some guys literally take 4-8 balls to the alley and spend thousands of dollars on their hobby. Does it give them an extra edge, most likely, but in the end its their own skill that really knocks the pins down and I'll conceed the gear probably doesn't have as much impact on the final result, (as it does in MMO's) but rest assured, 90/100 times the more hardcore bowler who spends more cash on the game is going to win.
Same is pretty much true in MMO's in the long run, the better players can win with worse gear, and most people who spend thousands of dollars on P2W items are usually pretty strong players in their own right, 9/10 players likely couldn't beat them regardless, they just don't realize it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree fully with this statement. When the core of the game is in acquiring loot and you can now buy it, what is the point ? People will do it still, but I feel that some might regret it, because some people are introduced the the phenomenon of buyng virtual items for real money for the first time.
if it makes anyone feel any better i have never baught anything on a games store to make my character just that little bit better than anyone, to be honest i dont really play those games as it makes too much of a level gap between people so ya lol
Is it really that different when we have things like FarmVille?
Or even ITUNES?
Buying something that isn't physical is not something new nowadays.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You went on what *fans* of a given game or genre told you?
Well, that was your main problem right there
.
Fans of games can tend to be rather hyperbolic and have blue-sky visions of what their favorite game (or the genre on the whole) can be or become.
As a rule, I don't think one should ever make a purchase based on "potential".. on "what could be somewhere down the road". Potential can ultimately become unrealized potential. It could turn into something the person *wasn't* expecting and doesn't like at all. Then they feel "cheated". Best thing to do is always to make decision based on what a product is *right now*. At least then you know exactly what you're getting.
I used to be vehemently against the idea of paying a sub for a game I'd already bought. Exactly the same thing. "I already bought the game,why am I paying a sub fee to play it?"
I completely skipped over EQ1's "heyday" due to this.
However, I came to understand the difference.
Offline games are one-shot things. You buy the game, you play the game, you finish the game... maybe you play through it a second or third time... and then you're done. Except for expansions or add-ons (which you still have to buy, unless they're community made), you are pretty much done with the experience. You bought the game, you played the game... you got what you paid for.
With MMOs, buying the game is only part of the picture. It's not just about "buying the game, finishing the game and moving on to the next one" (although many people seem determined to treat them that way anyway...). Because the game box you've bought doesn't only allow you access to the game inside, it allows you access to an entire other level of service that standard, stand-alone games do not offer.
MMORPGs are not only games. They're a service as well. And just like any other service, you have to pay an ongoing fee if you want to continue using that service.
The online fee allows you access to interact and play with potentially thousands of other players, all sharing the same virtual space, at the same time. Single player games can't offer this.
To support all this, hardware and software is required (which isn't cheap), knowledgable staff to set up and maintain it is required (which requires salaries being paid), electric is required to keep the machines running and the lights on (another expense), bandwidth is necessary (another expense)... and all else that goes with it. And of course there's the designers, artists, programmers and such who are creating, testing and implementing new content that is included for that monthly sub fee... Those people have to be paid, too.
Though it differs from company to company, the sub fee often provides content updates that do not require buying a whole other box purchase every month (despite how hyperbolically some will try to describe it as such), so the world is continuously expanding. For example, with Lineage 2, NCSoft has never sold a single retail expansion. You buy the initial game, and then all expansions and content updates - some 6 or so years of them now, I believe - are included with the sub fee. And they've had some pretty damn substantial expansions, easily on par with a typical retail box one.
Some will argue, "Yeah, but what if I don't like a MMORPG? Then I'm screwed!" No more so than you are if you buy a single player game and think it sucks, and that happens all the time in gaming. Buying the game isn't a guarantee you're going to enjoy it. Sure you can bring back the single player game to the store, but at best you're going to get a fraction of the value of the game, since it's opened and used. Some stores won't allow open software returns at all.
Some will argue, "Yeah but what about other developers who support their games without a sub fee, like Guild Wars?" Next time you log into Guild Wars, take a look at their little in-game store, selling character slots, skill sets, etc. etc. They're not making it on sub fees, sure. But, I'd not be surprised to find they're making even more through their cash shop. Guild Wars is not getting by on box sales alone.
The "oh so bold" statement one of ArenaNet's lead folks made about how companies have a difficult time justifying sub fees was incredibly funny, and very disingenuous to me, considering they're still getting the extra funds.. just through different means.
So in that light, subscriptions are not some 'evil thing' where you're being made to repeatedly re-buy the game. You already bought the game. Subscriptions are a very standard and quite accepted, and acceptable, form of service agreement. You pay the company so much per month for a service, they provide you that service. It's worked just fine in myriad other industries, and continues to work just fine.
Some will argue, "Well I can't play it offline at all! What if I want to play it offline!" -shrug- It stated right on the box "Internet Connection required". If people proceed to buy it anyway, knowing that, then they've forfeited their right to complain about it.
Frankly, I'd take Subscription-based gaming over this Cash Shop/Microtransaction crap any day. With sub fees, the arrangement is clear.. pay $15 a month for as long as you enjoy the game, and you get full access to it. Done.
With cash shops/microtransactions it all becomes this game played by the developers to find all these devious little ways to make playing the game as inconvenient as possible (beyond a certain level) to try and get players to spend as much as possible, as often as possible. The quote in my signature describes it beautifully.
People just seem so caught up in the "Free!!" part, that they never stop to take a step back and see what's *really* going on. They don't look past the surface.
The most disgusting part of it, to me, is how companies are adopting the Cash Shop/Microtransaction model, and basically shoving it down our throats, whether we like it or not, despite how much protest there is against it. They see it as a new cash cow they can milk; a new way to get into our piggy banks and nickel and dime us for more money.... without actually increasing the value of the product they're offering.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's because you are thinking of them "one way" while others are thinkng of them "another way".
you are thinking that they are games where players abide by the rules within the game and achieve things/have fun within those rules.
Others are thinking that obtaining things is just secondary and it's what they do in game in relation to other players that is the real game part.
So, buying gold or gear off of farmers doesn't matter to them. That just bypasses what they consider the drudgery so that they can get on with the pvp part of the game. I imagine that there are also players who have huge issues and who use their avatar as a way for them to bolster their own sense of well being. By prancing up and down the square they can show off and feel good among the gawkers. Even though they didn't actually earn their stuff.
Alot of these games are not pay to win even though there is a contengent of players who vehemently insist they are.
The only time a game is pay to win is when players can ues cash for better gear/perks and are then in direct competition with other players to "win" something. Which is always pvp.
if there is no competition then all players are doing is "pay to get to the highest level, best stats so they can... (?)"
Probably feel good about themselves. Even though it's not any big achievement.
As far as the whole buying goods and gold, well, this has been happening since EQ. I bet it even happened it UO.
Therefore there has always been a market for players to pay real world money for items/perks.
All game comapnies are doing is realizing that they are spending innordinate amounts of money fighting gold farmers when people claim they dont' take advantage of these things or want gold farmers but the evidence is very much against this.
There's even that audio of a developer in EA who was changing a game to a pay to play model and the interesting things they discovered despite what turned out ot be a small amount of players who screamed about it. And who eventually jumped on board bigger than anyone else.
http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thats true, just dont see how iTunes is related. Its still something that cannot be taken away from you after you download it, right ? Correct me if Im wrong, havent bought anything on iTunes *yuck* :P. In blizzards case, they can blame you for using 3rd party software, freeze your account and you can say bye bye to those items you just bought for, lets say 30$ (just an example for the virtual goods and your right for owning them).
The thing about it is though that diablo interests a totally different gaming crowd than mmorpg's. I know a lot of friends who do not play mmorpgs, and are waiting for diablo 3 like its the next messiah. Diablo is just such a popular franchise that if the RMT AH is successful in anyway, I just feel its gonna be rough times ahead when other companies feel like they can copy the same system.
For years I been saying there must be a lot of folks buying gold from the gold farmers. Gold farmers would not exist if there were not a market.
What we are seeing with the pay 2 win thing is the same group of folks who buy gold being catered to by these companies, and you know what, there mus be a lot of folks buying it otherwise they would not cater to them.
However I will say that most games that decided to go this route eventually will turn to a cesspool, and most folks will move on to the next greatest thing.
Play 2 win has always been here, its just now a lot of companies have caught on and are now trying to compete with the gold farmers. Folks win in the short run, and the real players are the ones who loose.
"Cheating" to reach your goal with the less effort was always part of gaming. Game company just use this at their adventage. It is sad, but thats how the world goes. Some people will always take adventage of other weakness. But there is always balance because using other people weakness too much is also a weakness.
Not just Itunes though, there are tons of things we pay for and will not 'own' if we cancel it later.
Your cable TV for example.
You don't pay to 'own' the content, you pay to access the content. Similar thing here. I don't think the 'pay for something that is not physical' is something that is alien to anyone that plays MMOs now.
If people want RMT AH, a company will take advantage of that. Like I said before, as long as there is a way to obtain said item in-game, I see no issue with it.
If we take it to the extreme level, it'll be like paying someone $5 to sit in front of my pc and play the game to get SWORDofAwesome. This happens right now whether it abides by EULA or not.
To accept that it will happen but also accepting that people will pay for that kind of thing is logical.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yeah, youre right. In the end it is just an issue of supplying the demand. But it doesn't make it right in my books. I find blizzard's odd statements of protecting the players a bit amusing though. I realize reasons behind the phenonmenon, but I don't really understand it on an individual level (players buying stuff).
Cable TV is a better example, even though I don't really need to watch anything more than once. And nowadaysif you want to watch something agan you can record the programs on your digital box, so you still hold something that you paid for previously. Opposed to the game where all the data is located somewhere else and you cannot use it, or replay anything if blizzard doesn't give you the green light. But I understand what you mean, it is not such a new thing overall, what I am saying is just that if the game is a big hit, and the "newcomers"(people who previously only paid for the game box) adapt the RMT AH, there will be a much larger market of item purchasers than before. The combination of greed and the Diablo game title worries me.
Well ... Blizzard has always tried hard to maximize the profit from WoW even more.
Including having a shop, making the gamer pay for expansions, demanding the same monthly fee as any other MMO out there, and not having a larger dev team than any other MMO out there.
So yeah, if they take it to the next level, I'm not surprised.
Its like being surprised that Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait. He only did the same thing he did to Iran before. So why being surprised ?
No he is wrong you own the content in that case, you can burn all the content on some dvd all you want. What is forbiden by the law is to divulge or use that content for non personal purpose. I think it is true for all products.