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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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I don't think "willpower" is relevant.
It's more like a preference for chocolate or vanilla.
Neither is dependent on "willpower".
You simply enjoy one more than the other.
I find shopping for items to be extremely annoying.
You enjoy shopping for items.
Vanilla versus chocolate.
Both are good, but you can prefer one over another.
No amount of "willpower" is going to make me enjoy vanilla if I prefer chocolate.
There is no amouth of "willpower" that can make me like shopping for items. I don't like that. Never have, never will.
After all, we're not talking about going on a diet.
We're talking about having fun.
Fun doesn't have anything to do with willpower.
Either it's fun, or it's not.
Generally "willpower" is required to do something that is not fun.
Why would you play a game if you don't enjoy it?
Makes no sense.
The whole issue boils down to why you play the games in the first place.
Do you play to win? Or do you play to play?
If you enjoy playing the game, then it shouldn't make much of a difference to you if Joe Wallet finishes all the content ahead of you, because you'll eventually get there if you care enough. OTOH, if you enjoy winning.... be it in PvP, or in beating the content first, or whatever... then microtransactions destroy the game for the poor. Like the real world, money replaces talent, and no matter how good you are, you can't compete with folks who buy their way to the top.
Hi, I'm on the same side as this guy but I didn't read anything at all, I just came in and started flaming away.
a person spending money is the same as a person spending money.
a person who spends 10 bucks to get a full set of cosmetic halloween witch costume for their character in a game is the same as a person who spends 10 bucks buying an alcoholic beverage.
one could argue that the person who spent 10 bucks to get a full set of cosmetic halloween witch costume got the better deal since the halloween costume will give them the feeling of joy everytime they see their character battling monsters while lookingl ike a witch so they can fulfill some fantasy of being a witch in hogwarts and killing trolls and what not while the alcoholic beverage is just....1 alcoholic beverage that will run its course in a matter of hours and will never be felt/thought of again.
so who's the losers now again?
ah yea, you, for boosting your own ego by calling out others ignorantly.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I've played lots of F2P games, some of them until endgame.
Usually there is some consensus in which items are fair to get and which ones are simply too much. And players that rely too much in overpowered items are shunned. Even if those items are obtainable by normal grinding. Usually the players that rely more in skill and less in bought items are appreciated while players that try to buy their way are shunned.
What i cannot understand is the arrogance of P2P players as if their way to play games were the only one, the absolute truth. MMORPGs are dying because they abandones mostly any sort of innovation and instead they filled the gaps with grinding. And no big company will change this because they look at WoW and see a model to follow, a proven way to get a decent player base that have grown accustomed to the same mechanics over and over.
MOBAs and social games are the future, they sucessfully have addressed the monetization problem with minimal damage to the game fun. But I play F2P games too because they tend to have smaller worlds than P2P games and so i can play them very casually and not be so worried about not discovering all of the world.
Um...no its not like that at all. See, I don't really wanna buy items either. But the ability to DO so inside of the game does not affect me in the way you say it does you. You suggested that it did not matter WHAT impact the RMT had, the presence of it was weighed on your mind. The willpower issue is in being able to overcome idealism against logic when the two do not meet. You suggested you cannot do this, that your idealism, or, rather, your perception of the game is intrinsically damaged because of it. I implied that I can separate what I think from what I know and decide if the two are equal parts. If they are not, I defer to which one is the greater part.
For example:
I THINK this incarnation of RMT has absolutely no impact on the game at all, or at least none that holds any perpetual and real value. I KNOW that, in business, men are hired specifically to ensure that the company is always in a period of economic growth. Growth is nessecary for ensuring your power employees can always have benefits and advancement, (both nessecary for ensuring you can obtain and retain quality workers). These men are going to always apply pressure so that the company always moves toward more profitable options. RMT is a more profitable option, and the only way to grow that side of the game is by gating content in such a way as to encourage use and interest. This affects the game design at its core.
When pitting what I THINK with what I KNOW, I can see that the values do not match up...and that what I KNOW is heavily weighted against it. So, I must ammend what I think Now I think RMT is going to almost always deeply affect design core. The only way it will not, or much lesser so, is in the hands of already vastly growing companies. However, all business experience times of slowed growth, or stunted growth. So, inevitably, its going to be addressed down the line. Whether or not this timeframe will occur in D3's lifespan is not known to me, and thus not addressed. It seems a reasonable guess to say it probably will affect later games more than this.
The bottom line is that your motivations in this are what I found unreasonable to ME. The idea of something is not enough to warrant a stance such as you have taken, at least not in the way I have to work to be happy. My motivations, unfortunately for me, HAVE forced me to migrate toward your stance. But its more important to me WHY i must feel a way, rather than THAT I feel a way. Understanding the actual problem, and not just the outliers, is key in correcting them and moving forward from them. You are not inclined to be a part of that, you just wanna play a game. I get it.. So you don't NEED a better reason to be against it. I do. Thats all i was saying.
Exellent points. My first and primary concern is if the game is fun to play. If it is, I do not care if its subscription based, "F2P" or some hybrid. If I do enjoy it, I also want the Dev's to make a profit off of their hard work and investment. That way its more likely the game will continue, and perhaps get expanded. Much of the hysteria over cash shops I've seen, stems from a big sense of entitlement (that we see a LOT of in the west).
No one is "forcing" you to do anything. Hell, you don't even have to play a game that uses a business model that you don't like. Players don't have the "right" to change the rules of the game. Dev's on the other hand do. If the Dev's declare that something is allowed within the game, its by definition not cheating. Its their game after all. Once again, if you do not like a games rules, or business model, by all means find one that you do.
Not really. It was their CHOICE to go after that legendary weapon. They saw some utility to that use of their time. They had the use of the gear, in exchange for their time and effort. Someone in a "P2W" game values that gear more, than they do the money required to purchase it. Thus again, both sides of the uncoerced transaction are happy.
Gearflation is simply a fact of life in most long term MMO's. I have six 85's in WoW at this point. Even though my best gear is only i355, its MUCH better than the best raiding gear was from the earlier game. How dare the Dev's set it up, so that all of those raiders "wasted" all of that time!... ^^
Not everyone play a game to derive sense of achievement. Some play games to make them happy, and are willing to pay for them, much like playing for a seat in a theatre or having dinner downtown.
You feel a sense of achievement, not me, not all of us. Thanks for trying to tell me what I feel from gaming. Frankly I do not want to work for something in a game, I just want to game.
Who are you to decide how each and everyone plays his game.
By the way, you are just one of the many in this community, no one cares what you think, no one knows who you are. You are entitled to your opinion, but your judgment carries zero weight.
Maybe it is high time you realised your views are just personal views, which is far from universal truth.
Stop trying to call everyone cheater, since they do not behave like you. Not everyone feels like you.
Gamers are so annoying: We take things so seriously for no rational reason. Opinions constantly trying to put on a fact costume.
Sony vs Microsoft
Apple vs Android
And cut from the same cloth; how somebody else plays their game somehow effects your satisfaction or happiness.
Well here are a few answers to the pay to play question:
To the person who wants achievement and believes p2w somehow takes it away or lessens it: You are not special and you haven't achieved anything. Your manastone or pvp rank or grand title are just 1s and 0s on a server that WILL be shut off someday. You own none of it. It is ALL somebody elses property. If you are made unhappy or unsatisfied because somebody else has what you have, or something better, you are probably just immature or worse. Ppl bring up cheat codes ruining games: well guess what, cheat codes may have ruined games for YOU. That's an opinion, FFS stop using it in arguments as if it were a fact. Player X has fun one way and player Y has fun a different way and a publisher Z finds a way to fill both needs....and here you are bitching...because they're happy? Seriously you need to understand that all the items and exp and titles and achievements are NOTHING, it has no value in life, in the realistic grand scheme it's worth 0. Now that you accept that isn't it silly to even question (apart from simple learning) what makes gamer x happy?
To the person who is secretly pissed at p2w because they can't afford to p2w: maybe, just maybe you should have spent a little more time working and a little less time gaming. Working as a cashier part time at star bucks at the age of 30 is YOUR fault. I'm not apologizing for having $$$ to blow: stop hating. To echo a previous point: if you took every minute you've put into mmos you no longer play and instead invested that time into real things like: your job, your education, your family, your physical fitness how do you think things would be different for you now? I know I would be better, yet after seeing posts like this simply whining about nothing I am greatful I did limit gaming.
It's not too late. (unless you are making close to minimum wage over 30 and over 300lbs and renting, then it is about over)
Yes some people treat game more seriously some less seriously. What's wrong with that.
I think people are missing one thing. People are diffrent it is impossible to cater to everone and you clearly cannot convince all of them. Some people want to buy their way , and spend money in item shop for whatever weird reason they do.
Some people don't and they don't want to play on servers where that kind of option (IS, p2w) is possible. That hard to understand? Hell you don't even have to understand reasoning for it. Just accept reality.
Simple solution.
Game developers should create diffrent server types which require diffrent subscriptions.
Main server types a) normal subscription and item shops
b) alternative subscription (higher than on servers a) ) and NO item shops at all
Players cannot transfer characters between servers.
Problem solved. Game company earn more money becase it have more players. And because on server types a) they spend money in item shop and also more money on servers b) becasue they pay more for subscription than normal subscription cost
Win-win situation for all.
Very acceptable, except that D3 does not even have a persistent world. RMT does not affect the gamers unless they want to trade.
I like your solution and it does make sense. I read somewhere though the the bread and butter of making these things work is community and spreading the community across multiple servers fractures it. I guess that comes down to quality of the game and how much of a population it attracts. I could see someone big like Blizzard doing this, but it would probably be a death knell for LotRO/DDO
It'd be cool to see how sustainable the two models are for the same game seperated based on payment model. I'm sure a F2P model would smoke the others at first, but if the game is engaging it would be interesting to see the player retention over time.
I'm not sure they could have the exact same game under the two models however. The goal for devs using sub models is making the game more engaging to keep people, while the goal in the F2P/Item shops is to burn potions and other usables while making sure the content is boring enough that you want to skip it, but not boring enough to make you quit - basically the sub game couldn't have the same volume of grind that they shoot for in F2Ps.
The thread has turned mostly into personal attacks and non-constructive discussion. Locking it.
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