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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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What??? Are you saying that it's possible to be intelligent and productive yet not be wealthy? Are you implying that the free market system is not perfect and some productive intelligent people will be underpayed???
I will not listen to these lies
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Let's put it this way, when i go to the mac donalds for lunch it costs like 7 euro for what i take. Times 4= 28 euro (which is more than 35$). So in a fast food you won't even feed your family for one meal here.
Now off course cooking yourself is cheaper however it depends what you buy. If you take the cheapest of the cheapest , sure you'll get around for one day. But usually those products are what i consider poison. (i don't take food quality lightly, which is also why i very rarely go to fast food and such).
So yeah, 35$ for three meals for 4 people is almost impossible to achieve over here.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
You're buying food from McDonald's yet you consider cheap foods at the grocery store poison
? Ah the irony.
You can actually get decent quality food for pretty cheap, it's probably just not what you want. Things like rice, frozen chicken, canned veggies, you can get them all pretty cheap especially if you buy in bulk.
Now if you want to be a gourmet and cook with fresh or organic ingredients, or have a different kind of meal every day...yeah $35 a day is not happening.
EDIT: I realize you said euro, so you obviously don't live in the US. Maybe cost of living is just higher where you live?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
so u are saying that ppl play mmorpgs to wear VIRTUAL ITEMS? and enjoy the game because can wear cool armor?
i dont know what happened to mmorpgs ,but sometime in the past we took the wrong way...
left way = having fun , and killing things, enjoying quest , events , RP ( i dont but ..) , pvp for the heck of pvp (DaoC any1?) , exploring ....
right way = getting items in order to stay afk in citys , so ppl can stare at your awesomeness..E-peen flexing everywher......milking the players wallet .....oh and releasing the mmo in alpha staget to get benefits early...but only to fail to keep the playerbase , because the game sucks (no content , bugs , no endgame , broken game)...
This post makes me laugh. Food form Mc Donalds is good but food from a grocery store is poison lol. I have a family of 4 ( a wife and 2 kids) and it cost me about $21 to go to Mc Donalds. Now, if I went to a grocery store I could by chicken, rice, and veggies for around $10-$12 dollars. Better food for much cheaper. You could litterally feed a family of 4 for 2-3 days on $35 if you needed to.
I understand you said Euro but still the poison things was jsut to funny.
You feel a sense of achievement if you work for something in a MMO. P2P is just like getting your mum to buy you a new pair of trainers…lame.
Some models are not as bad as others, Lotro uses the Turbine model but I find there is never enough things that I want to buy. That shows you don’t need to Pay to Win. On the other hand when I played DDO which also uses the Turbine model it is in reality a different beast. In DDO I never had enough points. But even DDO is nothing to something like Perfect World which is a daily pay to win.
Wow, reading comprehension failure. I used Mc Donalds as an example because he brought taco bell into the discussion (which we don't have so i used a fast food everyone knows).
Please quote where i said that was healthy? (and if you'll read carefully you'll notice i even mentioned i go to fast foods very rarely) . I'm talking about super market's low quality brands. Those which are known to be a quality failure. (confirmed by a bio engineer working in the food industry). Only if you stick to those would you be able to feed four mouths for a day with 35 bucks here.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
You didn't outright say McDonald's was healthy but you definitely implied it
.
You said that you could get food from McDonalds for $21. Which implies that you do eat food from McDonalds. Otherwise, why would you bring it up?
You then say that you don't take food quality lightly and you consider cheap grocery store products poison.
See the implication there
?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera.
Other things that you can't do if you don't have the time because of family or career:
Play basketball - would you go to a pick-up game and declare that your shots should count for 3 points, here's some cash? (side note: if you're going to try this downtown, please let us know when and where)
Play Risk - do you ask for extra armies or an extra die because you don't have the time?
Monoply - do you ask for Park Place up front?
Compete in anything at all - do you whine until someone gives you a handicap?
Climb mountains - do you get airlifted to the top and claim to be a mountain climber? This is probably the best example. Mountain climbing is about personal achievement and people are proud of their accomplishments. If airlifting is an acceptable way to be called a mountain climber it cheapens what the real mountain climbers are doing.
What you do and how you play a game affects all of the other people in the game. By giving yourself shortcuts you cheapen the time put in by people playing within the rules of the game. Rewards become meaningless if you can buy them.
If you buy clothing, you affect crafters. This is game changing for them
If you buy health, the devs increase the difficulty of the game to force you to burn through heath faster. They also decrease the frequency of health potions dropping. This affects all the people in the game, especially those that are there to actually play the game.
In conclusion - MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera for everyone else. Go buy a Legolas standie and dress that up.
Actually your examples are broken. In MMO's you don't pay to suddenly have cleared content or gained achievements or whatever. You pay for gear which makes it easier.
Don't people pay a lot for top notch sports shoes?
Don't people pay a lot for awesome tennis rackets?
Don't people pay a lot to pimp their airsoft weapons?
Doesn't a golf stick that you bought for 1k euro give you an edge over the guy who made his own out of wood? (unless he's a professional craftsman, he might have made an awesome one)
and i could go on.
In many hobbies people pay money to upgrade their gear which makes it "easier".
You could just play airsoft with the cheapest gun you could find but it's gonna be harder than with one which has been upgraded to have a better range, accuracy and rof.
Now sure the reward's values are reduced and i can see how that affects one's "fun" as it is always nice to get an a rare and awesome item to brag about. But than all you need to do is avoid P2Win games. Obviously P2P and P2win games cather different players.
I would find it sad if someday there would only be P2Win games but as long as many AAA games are P2P i'm not too worried.
There will always be devs willing to satisfy the P2P market (unless everyone starts disliking it)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
All of your examples don't work for the simple reason that a fan is not in the position to determine the rules of a particular game or industry that illustrious right belongs to the companies who are offering players these services.
Those against RMT's want to tell others how to play the game but it simply isn't your right nor mine either. In a perfect world for those against the practice people would just keep the wallet closed tight but again who has the right to tell others how much is ok to spend on the hobbies they enjoy especially when we are speaking about the companies themselves offering the services.
To be honest with you subscription fees are RMT's too again that's the pandoras box you guys opened and I just don't see how it will ever be closed now.
And again let's look closely at your statement "by giving yourselves shortcuts" the players are not giving themselves shortcuts the developers are giving the players these shortcuts following the rest of your example it would seem the easiest solution is for those against the practice to not support those games that offer these services.
I don't pvp much but if I did I would be against p2w type of games, some of which I have played and quickly quit but the writing is on the wall far too many people don't feel the way you guys do so why not give it a rest control what you can control and how people spend their entertainment dollar is certainly not something soeone else can control.
I'm not gonna bother reading 10 pages of articles.
To me from all the forums I've read about people whining about pay 2 win. It sure seems to me that the lot of you are just pissed because you're too broke to afford the nice shinies that the guy making six figures a year can buy without blinking. I currently play a pay 2 win game called Eudemons online and before that Conquer online. Both games have a very very high playerbase where not one single person is against the pay 2 win scheme... They might growl about being broke and not being able to afford the best shit in the game, but they move on quickly and focus on what's at hand.
In my opinion, pay to win or grind to win it really doesn't matter as long as I am enjoying the game I'm playing... If I gotta pay to get ahead or devote ten times the amount of time doing it for free. That's my choice, after all I could simply just decide to not play it.
So put your jealousy aside and think of what really matters... The gameplay.
Actually, your examples fall under the classic logical fallacy of misdirection - none of the things allow you to work faster, run faster or have better aim. It all comes down to your skill and time invested. More expensive gear doesn't make the miles shorter, give you less furniture to build and buying gear doesn't result in anyone else's race or hobby becoming harder like it does in MMOs. New shoes don't make you a better runner - you're not going refuse to run miles every day then walk into a marathon and complete it.
In MMOs buying health is like using performance enhancing drugs, not having better shoes. Buying weapons is like using a corked bat. All of the 'armor' on a football fields is standardized. Hell, they even have to wear the same brand shoes. Ever hear of the term "level playing field"? Games have rules. If you start giving people advantages because they're wealthy then the game is broken - it's no longer a game where you pit your wits against it to try to win or solve it.
In real life there are endless rewards to go for and endless ways to get to them. A MMO is much much smaller which means the impact of cheating is far greater. There are only a few types of rewards and only a few ways to get at them.
What I find funny about the above statement is your use of examples... Buying health is something any player can do for one, or just stock up on potions for free... As for the gear being a corked bat, well obviously there's more then a few people with the same gear hence why it was for sale in the first place. No one is going to sell better gear then they are currently wearing unless they can't equip it. So your logic completely fails on all grounds, besides the fact that illegal drug usage and corked bat usage results in extreme measures by the MLB, where in your MMO it just results in lots of time saving to get to what you want quicker. Always a price for convinience
And the problem with your statement is that every mmo with a cash shop doesn't fall under the same design scheme LOTRO is f2p with a cash shop and so little pvp you are never given an advantage over a player how could you when you are not in direct competition with anyone?
A vast majority of mmo's with cash shops fall under the same category, from what I see there are very few large mmo's that could be classified as p2w. This entire argument only works if a majority of mmo's were competitive games and from what I see they either are not or the devs are smart enough to avoid putting items that are p2w in the cash shops. Blizzard has a strong pvp element and a cash shop yet you don't see people leaving in droves because it has a cash shop.
Not really. COnsidering everyone can uses the gear, potions and whatsoever it is comparable to normally used items in hobbies.
You can't compare a health potion which everyone can use to drugs which are illegal. A health pot is part of the standardly used "gear".
And those games have rules on a highly competitive level. (and still it depends on the sports/hobby). If you want that organised tournaments for video games only use standard setups , sure fine by me and i think that's what they do to.
On top of that You don't buy "skills" by buying a shiny new sword. If you suck you'll still suck. Sure gear can help compensate for your lack of skills but your skills still matter.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
There's nothing funny about it. You're not going to be a great woodworker because you have a fancy router. You're not going to complete an Iron Man triatholon because you bought something.
And this statement has got to be the funniest I've seen:
"Buying health is something any player can do for one" - that's what this entire debate is about. We don't want to be forced to buy extra crap because you personally don't have the time to play.
This is a fallacy:
"or just stock up on potions for free" because if potions are available for cash, the devs adjust the difficulty for everyone, not just you.
"As for the gear being a corked bat, well obviously there's more then a few people with the same gear hence why it was for sale in the first place" this makes no sense at all
"No one is going to sell better gear then they are currently wearing unless they can't equip it" you're getting to the level that you can equip it before others because you're accelerating your ability to get there. This cheapens the rewards for the multitude of others that are taking the time to play within a ruleset to get to that level. You didn't earn a thing.
Believing you have the right to change the rules of a game because you don't have the time to put into it is just selfish. Most of us have jobs and family and there are thousands that play these games, not just you. Go get Dragon Age and some cheat codes.
Who said people aren't selfish? I know when it comes to gaming I definitely am as selfish as it gets... Most people are in that fact. What you want and what you're going to get are two completely different things, stop acting like a spoiled child and expect everything to be free and easy for you to obtain. There is two choices... PAY for easy, WORK for easy. There is no hand held, hello kitty online express method to this... Either pay or work, simple as that. This mentality of people thinking games should be more time consuming then a full time job really need to get their head checked, it's pathetic how I see so many ignore everyone in their life and focus on only their game at hand. Yea casuals might not have time to put in 40 hours in a week to get where they need to go, how about I just use money from my job and pay to surpass the guy who just wasted 40 hours of their life when they could be doing something with it. I enjoy my stress free, uncompressed time to zone and just enjoy playing... Yea there's a price for that too, ever heard of capitalism?
MMOs take TIME - it's an inherant quality of the game. If you don't have TIME, you don't play this type of game - simple as that.
And thanks for provong my point
" There is no hand held, hello kitty online express method to this" is exactly what you're asking for.
as you state buying fancy stuff isn't going to make a person a better player sho what other than stroking ones epeen gives people the idea that buying this stuff as opposed to spending forty hours a week playing gives the buyer a competitive advantage?
Crafters.
But no one is changing the rules. If you play a P2P game the rules are clear: no gear can be purchased with R-L cash
In a P2Win the rules are clear as well: you can buy gear for cash.
Don't like the rules of the latter? don't join the game. Now that you wish more games used the first rule is fine, but you can drop the over the top self-righteous attitude.
(oh and that first sentence can be used against you very easily as well as you are debating against P2Win and thus trying to change those rules and ruining the fun of people who enjoy it. Sounds selfish, no?)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Insult aside - LotRO, DDO, STO, CO - basically any of these conversion games. People bought them and put time into getting say, a lengendary weapon which is not big deal when you can buy them. You just wasted the time of every single person who made a choice to put that time in in the first place.