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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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I completely agree... I enjoy the pay2win games because I honestly couldn't be fucked spending 40 hours to grind what I need when I can spend 5 minutes and just buy it... I guess people forget that working takes time...
play 40 hours in a game to get x item
work 40 hours a week to buy x item
Please tell me the difference? Other then you make more money at work and actually can afford to pay for your survival and the internet bill to actually play your mmo. Time invested it still the same regardless be it direct or indirect
Hmm so the model you present of "you either pay or work" sounds a lot like something else I know about....ooh that's right!
REALITY.
In my opinion, a GAME shouldn't be like reality, it should be entertaining. I shouldn't ever look at playing a game as if it were work. The fact that you believe a game is like work shows where we differ. But hey, if you want a game to be like work, then P2W is the way to go because that's exactly what it will encourage the devs to do. Make the game like work so you will pay.
And about your capitalism comment, I don't think anyone ever said they want a game to be F2P with no cash shop and no way for the devs to make money. That's ridiculous. I think all that anti-P2W people want is to buy a game just like old times and then maybe pay a sub fee.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
What is entertainling to one gamer can't be determined by another gamer though, you guys don't find it entertaining too bad because it will only become more and more accepted.
Obviously those games simply adapted to survive. It is unfortunate you were apart of them and saw your hours of playing "ruined" because of it. But the market is the market. And they most likely had to make a choice, go down or adapt.
The only ones you can blame are the devs. they decided to put the market ahead of you. Players don't change rules, the owners of the playground do.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
The difference is that working only takes time because the devs made it that way lol
.
The fact that you keep talking about a game as if it were work just supports the anti-P2W side of this debate.
We DO NOT want games to be like work. Sure they feel like that now, but I always saw that as a shortcoming, something to be overcome. That's why so many devs try to make games less grindy. They actually want their game to be entertaining.
With P2W, it's to the dev's advantage to make it like work.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well I understand that desire for those gamers... However the reality is that, box sales will never pay for never ending monthly bills... Not small bills either when it comes to paying devs, servers, law suits, etc etc etc. A subscription base is the least you'll ever see from any game. Honestly the way it should be is p2p = sub and no item mall passed vaniety items and F2P item mall. Unfortunately item malls are and have always been a pay 2 win feature well somewhat... As I stated before the games I play are pay 2 win, however that's not completely from the item mall... In fact the item mall is rarely ever used and the sole trading in the game is between players, so they set the price with in game currency.
My friends in game have played the game non stop for 5 years and are incredibly powerful with the best gear, I quit for 3 years and came back far behind them. Now I got a choice where I can spend 3 years just to catch up where they continue to grow as well or I pay to get my ass to their level for being gone for so long so we can once again enjoy the game together. Yea it has a bit of an unfair disadvantage I guess, but that disadvantage is to the people who are poor. After all it's not like I'm the only one that has the option to pay or play, everyone does so what's honestly stopping them? Other then their income.
Please tell me the difference? You work because you have to. You play games for entertainment.
A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements.
Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form ofexercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.
fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
Rules:
Whereas games are often characterized by their tools, they are often defined by their rules. While rules are subject to variations and changes, enough change in the rules usually results in a "new" game. For instance, baseball can be played with "real" baseballs or with wiffleballs. However, if the players decide to play with only three bases, they are arguably playing a different game. There are exceptions to this in that some games deliberately involve the changing of their own rules, but even then there are often immutable meta-rules.
Rules generally determine turn order, the rights and responsibilities of the players, and each player’s goals. Player rights may include when they may spend resources or move tokens. Common win conditions are being first to amass a certain quota of points or tokens (as in Settlers of Catan), having the greatest number of tokens at the end of the game (as in Monopoly), or some relationship of one’s game tokens to those of one’s opponent (as in chess's checkmate).
A job is ordinary direct, or "full-time", employment in which a free worker sells his or her labour for an indeterminate time (from a few years to the entire career of the worker), in return for a money-wage or salary and a continuing relationship with the employer which it does not in general offer contractors or other irregular staff
First of all don't tell me what a game is about when I've probably been playing them longer then you've been around. Games are whatever the gamer decides them to be and perceived as. Many games especially ones like eve online are almost like a second job in reality with the time and effort required to get anywhere substantial. goals, rules, challenge and interaction are also key aspects of a career not just a game... Same with educational, simulational, or psychological roles, they are honestly not too far off of each other. Not everyone works because they have to just to pay bills, some people work and pursue a career or job that they truly want just for the same experience that one would get in a video game. Reality and gaming isn't far too off of each other outside of it's general fantasy style gameplay.
Wage labor is exactly as you say, but what you also described is known as a term called. "Trade". Which naturally you know trade exists on many levels, which I have stated previously... Trade x time/effort for x amount of money, trade x money for x amount of time/effort.
Common sense
?
Maybe realizing that the game should be about the journey of acquiring your items and paying for them completely misses the point?
Basically, I think P2W / P2 Skip games are a bit of a scam. They advertise themselves as F2P, but they really aren't. Many of them are designed to be very grindy but give players the opportunity to pay to skip part of the grind by paying money.
But they don't really tell you this up front. Instead, they let you play for free, get into the game, and then when you realize that you have to grind for a year to get what you want, you discover that you can just lay down a few bucks and get it right now. So I basically think they're only really successful because they are fairly deceptive.
I made a mock poll to test this theory some time ago. In the poll I proposed a game that was essentially pay to skip but told you this flat out. It basically said you could pay a little bit but have to grind a lot, or pay more and have to grind less. Not surprisingly, 80% of respondants hated the idea. You can find the poll here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323722/page/1
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Stop thinking that a pure p2p without item shop is viable. If the game has no means to pay for character progression, external RMT traders will provide that means. In the past game companies simply frowned upon it and players who made pay-per-advancement transactions exposed themselves to being scammed. The reality is, people want the option of pay-per-advancement. Even if for some people seems an unfair, immersion-breaking option.
And as the game is a service, it becomes a best service by catering to what the service users REALLY want. And they want the RMT option. And they ALWAYS have wanted it, even if it wasn't legal and was frowned upon by fellow players and game companies.
We haven't 'lost our way this much'. The way was lost since the time MMORPGs were decided to become timesinks, grindfests, or moneysinks. A game character should not take months or years to develop for heavily PvP oriented games. League of Legends proved that about 45 minutes of character development till endgame is enough.
Hated, most likely but do they still play them I bet you anything lol. Yes the journey is what I have to agree about with being a main factor of a game for the most enjoyment, but for older gamers like myself who still enjoy playing them. I don't want to feel the constant strain of replaying the same design over and over and over and over again. Would you enjoy living your life if you were reborn every 30 years to have to go through the same shit over and over again? I highly doubt it. The problems with games these days is that gamers are getting older, many are getting tired of having the same old grind and don't want to do it anymore. I am one of those people, so if I gotta pay a bit more money to skip the bullshit I've already done countless of times I will. Yes it opens up a market for the devs but they're honestly doing me the favor and many others. Call it ruining the genre if you want, but without gamers there wouldn't be games and most I've seen are willing to fork out the money if it's going to save them a repeat of what they've already done... Hell go pay to watch a movie 10 times, or have the option to pay a bit more to watch a new one... What would you do?
I agree with that as well... Even if the devs don't provide a way to pay for advancement, another company will come and do it. Why do you think those wow gold sites and such are so successful.... Closet payers is what I suspect, humans are lazy in general and the capitalist market exploits that for everything it's worth... It's a massive market.
I honestly would rather have a game company provide RMT monitered trading instead of third parties, at least it'll save me a bunch of cash and not worry about being possible hacked.
I'm 40 and the definitions were from Wikipedia. Even if I were 18, my points wouldn't be any less valid.
Wage labor is exactly as you say, but what you also described is known as a term called. "Trade". Which naturally you know trade exists on many levels, which I have stated previously... Trade x time/effort for x amount of money, trade x money for x amount of time/effort.
Again, proved my point: You're asking to be able to trade x-10 time/effort for x+10 achievement by spending money in a game, not at a job. Money gives the advantage in these games to doctors, lawyers - anyone with more money that you. Games are a test of skill or wit on a level playing field. You shouldn't receive a bonus in a game because of what you do in reality. And for some perspective, not to brag, my family is not hurting for money. I could easily buy anything I wanted in any of these games, but then it's not about the game, it's about what I do for a living.
I agree that F2P's are often a scam (i avoid F2P's a lot) but i don't think people willing to pay for gear necessarily want to skip the journey. The problem is that even in P2P games there is quite some grinding. It's fun to do ICC for the first time in WoW but doing it for the 10th time because you still need loot kinda gets old. I can see how someone would then prefer to fill the remaining slots requiring an upgrade with items from a cash shop.
Though not really related to the discussion of P2Win , my issue with many MMO's nowadays is that instead of designing long journeys they make the journey repetitive. I miss the quests in Runescape that took a whole morning to complete , was much more fun than doing 20x a generic "kill x mobs" quests even though it took the same amount of time.
And because of this i can only understand people willing to pay real cash for not having to do 20x a generic quest.
If there is anyone to blame it's the P2P devs making their games grindy making people desire P2Win variants. (though, like you said, they can be somewhat scammy as they increase the initial grind)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I honestly don't mind being at a disadvantage in a game... A challenge is what makes it exciting to a point, but then there's a tradeoff... Am I willing to put in x time when I have other important things to take care of in my real life... IE. kids, wife, family, friends etc etc. If I had the time to contribute to games I definitely would.
Lemmie think of how to put this... Should a game affect your real life where it comes before your real life responsibilities and obligations? Should a game tear apart your family, friends and relationships because it requires my time? That's the problem with many gamers in this world, they lose everything because of an addiction or desire to overcome others in a game but they need to put in so much time and effort trading off their real life. I would rather have a pay to win scheme where I can get maybe not the best stuff in the game, or the best stuff and be able to spend time with my loved ones as much as if I hardly played the game at all... I love games I always do but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for them, my money yes but not my life.
I would add the players falling in line and paying to win are also to blame. They're the fuel that is driving the industry towards this model. They're making the practice acceptable which affects the entire community of gamers.
This is all personal choice though. It's a luxury you're reserving for yourself as you drive the industry this way simply by acquiescing. You force the people who don't want to buy to win, that want the challenge and want content to play games that are far 'grindier' because the companies know you'll pony up for the illusion that you're saving time. They just add filler. You encourage games to have more grind which even all buffed up increases the time it takes you to play. It affect all of the games, the quality of the games that come out and all of the gamers when these companies see $$ in the form of less work for greater profit. That is capitalism.
I don't know yet how the auction house in D3 will work. From what I heard you will be able to buy and sell virtual goods for real money. At first sight this sounds appealing. Farm some in-game items and sell them to the "lazy" folk. At a second glance maybe it's not so appealing anymore. The IRS will be bugging you. Transactions may be monitored because of fears that such systems might be abused for money laundering.
I like CRPGs and RPGs. But still. I don't like the overall direction of the genre.
Personal choice to keep my marriage and a healthy relationship with the people in my life? Are you seriously saying your game is more important then that? I honestly hope not for a man to claim he's in his 40's, you know better then that.
Yes it is capitalism and no I'm not trying to ruin gaming for anyone, but there needs to be a balance and I am sure the devs/game companies are trying to find a working balance between the two. Blizzard was good at it for a long time until many people's lives started to get seriously affected, some even died playing wow... That is why they had tried to make the game require much less time then it had previously, however even doing so it had brought much hate from the gamer community... There is no possible way to please everyone, so the best thing is balance.
Alot of people do not have the time to put into a game so the best soloution for them are to buy stuff instead of putting in the time to earn stuff. To me it is like this, real life is greater than gaming hobby so if you don't have the time to game then perhaps it was not meant for those to be gaming. There is no way people can be in 2 places at once so unfortunately something has to be sacrificed.
Yes, how you spend your time is a personal choice. Whether you judge certain activities to be more or less important is irrelevant.
Quick question - where is your family while you're spending all these hours on the forums? If you look at the sporatic increases in my posts per day, they align exactly with the times I fly my wife and kids from the east coast to the midwest to see her family - I can't leave my business to take a vacation. I play for money in the real world and have a lot of advantages over people who aren't as lucky. I 'grinded'/ground to get where I am. When I relax I want to play on a level playing field with other people that play with me because behind the avatar they like me, not because they're trying to sell me something or come for loans. I don't look fancier because of my income, I don't try to get ahead because of my cash - I try to get ahead using skill and wits. I only play sub games for that reason. People have what they have because of achievement in the game. I don't like grind - been there, done that. You are pushing the industry in such a way that it is decreasing my choice in games. You're taking the 'game' out of games and making them toys.
Haha i dont have the same responsibility's as you,so i guess we should bend the rules to suit you or even better why dont you just lvl up a little slower or get your gear littel slower,seems its all about mememe these days i want what you have and i want it nowwwwwwwww.
lol no idea why my name is on the previous post ?.
Please read the posts you're arguing against. We're on the same side. I was trying to show that I work 70+ hours a week, take care of my family and like to participate in the games rather then buy my way through. I do " just lvl up a little slower or get your gear littel slower
Posting on the forums, if you were to see the times I post they are very very far and in between. I very rarely go on forums.
I am not pushing the industry differently, I have not been asking for any new games. I have not been demanding difference in games. I still play the same games I have for years, even though I do take breaks from them. I am merely showing my support for whatever the designers try. If it works for me I play, if it doesn't work for me I don't. I don't cry on forums and let everyone know my rage about what a game wants to do. I just get up and move onto something more catering to me. I just don't enjoy seeing people flaming and harshing on ideas that their favorite game developers wish to pursue as something new to try. The only time people should complain is if the selected feature added to the game actually does impact it... Not assume and fear the sky is falling before it's even released. Yes it's a risk but in a year down the road most players who paid to advance probably would have left out of boredom. Many don't know how to balance paying vs grinding... Everything I do is done given the time frames I have... I do grind, I do play I do many things we all do as gamers, but if I run out of time I don't want to be outdone by a guy who's got more time... Well I got more money so why can't I pay it to keep up so I can enjoy my afk life while still advancing. Yes I see that as exploitable by people who don't want to play hardly at all and just skip the entire damn game, but hey that's their problem if they want to do that and waste time/money. Me I just pay to fill the gaps of time missed, not to skip the game.