Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?

0Neo0

Hey syber sorry, for some silly reason only part of your post was showing on my screen.

As for cash shops emm can't express in words the hate i have for this hole idea and this is just the begining soon as we accept this as the norm, well open your wallets and mybe a special clinic for addicted broke gamers.

xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Aodhan

Hey syber sorry, for some silly reason only part of your post was showing on my screen.

As for cash shops emm can't express in words the hate i have for this hole idea and this is just the begining soon as we accept this as the norm, well open your wallets and mybe a special clinic for addicted broke gamers.

Hmmm...  I think they do have gaming addiction clinics, aimed at gamblers aka gamers lol.    Not related to video games though.   The English language is incredibly confusing I gotta admit :P

Cyberdeck7

Posting on the forums, if you were to see the times I post they are very very far and in between.  I very rarely go on forums.

I can see that from the fact that you've been a member since 07 and I have more posts. That doesn't make it appropriate for you to insinuate I neglect my family, friends or business. Or that I lie about my age or anything else.

I am not pushing the industry differently

This is where I believe you're wrong. Buy buying cheaply replicating icons you're telling the industry that the practice of gutting the 'game' from games is acceptable by default. You provide the only thing that is necessary to encourage the industry in this direction - extremely cheap profits. Just like all these companies hopped on the MMO bandwagon because Blizzard was making a killing, they're hopping on the F2P/buy to win bandwagon because the profits are just crazy. You're buying icons with a simple equation from people while accepting the fact that they can make your purchase worth less or worthless at will. Anything you buy from an item shop affects the game world. Clothing: Crafters. Buffs: difficulty of mobs and frequency of drops. Weapons and armor: the people that play the game for the game, not to blast through because you have more cash then the next guy. This causes the devs to build in grind - affects everyone.

xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Posting on the forums, if you were to see the times I post they are very very far and in between.  I very rarely go on forums.

I can see that from the fact that you've been a member since 07 and I have more posts. That doesn't make it appropriate for you to insinuate I neglect my family, friends or business. Or that I lie about my age or anything else.

I am not pushing the industry differently

This is where I believe you're wrong. Buy buying cheaply replicating icons you're telling the industry that the practice of gutting the 'game' from games is acceptable by default. You provide the only thing that is necessary to encourage the industry in this direction - extremely cheap profits. Just like all these companies hopped on the MMO bandwagon because Blizzard was making a killing, they're hopping on the F2P/buy to win bandwagon because the profits are just crazy. You're buying icons with a simple equation from people while accepting the fact that they can make your purchase worth less or worthless at will. Anything you buy from an item shop affects the game world. Clothing: Crafters. Buffs: difficulty of mobs and frequency of drops. Weapons and armor: the people that play the game for the game, not to blast through because you have more cash then the next guy. This causes the devs to build in grind - affects everyone.

Pft not at all...  I wouldn't buy potions on an item shop, I'm too cheap for that.  I'll just easily farm them myself or not use them at all...    erm that was in response to what I seem to have missed as your sig.  Meh.

I would never flame a company for trying to find a way to make profits, they are in the business to make money.   How they go about that is their business, if you don't like it then don't give them any...    Yes it's what the world is coming to and the only way it'll change is if they stop making money.    Want a business to do as you wish, make em broke and give them a profit they will be your slave.

I buy things in item shops to advance my character, not directly cheat in battle by having infinite health.   I do have morals...

Cyberdeck7

This talk of time brings up a good point though. I'm going to play instead of trying to change the mind of anyone. You all bring up some good points, and I too look for games that I can play when my time is limited. I don't play MMOs in that case however because MMOs take more time, it's inherant in the genera.

[edit] removed the veiled accusations, because you seem pretty cool and we most likely fight shoulder to shoulder every weekend. (even if you do look better doing it  )

Nerf09

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Nerf09

I play to escape reality, reality includes things like chatting with you about crap like this.  (hint:  you can't win argument, so don't try)

So you play games to forget about your socio-economic situation. Alrighty than, do you also moan every time a game is released that you cannot play on max settings because your rig isn't top notch?

I mean not everyone can afford high end PC's so making games which require such PC's to be graphically fully used ruin it as well i guess.

Now don't get me wrong, if you moan about anything in the gaming industry that disadvantages people based on their will and ability to spend that's fine by me. It's your opinion that it ruins your fun, can't argue with that. But do you honestly think that even a tiny minority think like that? I've heard many reasons why P2W sucks but that ain't one of em.

Playing a video game is a waste of your life, those that Pay2Win can't even win at wasting life.  I don't want anything to do with these losers.

It goes both ways, I'm sure those who spend their own money on how they want it also feels that they don't want to deal with someone that has a problem on how they spend their own money.

Only on the internet will someone call another a 'loser' cause of how they spend their own money.

No it doesn't go both ways.  Someone who pays2win cheat is a loser.

Nerf09

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Nerf09

I play to escape reality, reality includes things like chatting with you about crap like this.  (hint:  you can't win argument, so don't try)

So you play games to forget about your socio-economic situation. Alrighty than, do you also moan every time a game is released that you cannot play on max settings because your rig isn't top notch?

I mean not everyone can afford high end PC's so making games which require such PC's to be graphically fully used ruin it as well i guess.

Now don't get me wrong, if you moan about anything in the gaming industry that disadvantages people based on their will and ability to spend that's fine by me. It's your opinion that it ruins your fun, can't argue with that. But do you honestly think that even a tiny minority think like that? I've heard many reasons why P2W sucks but that ain't one of em.

Playing a video game is a waste of your life, those that Pay2Win can't even win at wasting life.  I don't want anything to do with these losers.

You cannot fail at wasting your life. It's just that you are pretentious enough to think your way is the only "winning" way. If someone wants to p2win it's their own problem.

It's only their own problem if they are isolated from the rest of the normal community.

Nerf09

Originally posted by namelessbob

Originally posted by Creslin321

With the legions of F2P games out there that allow you to "buy" your success with real money, and now with even Blizzard endorsing pay 2 win with the Diablo 3

Stopped reading about right there. You clearly have lost your way with what pay to win is. The auction house does not sell exclusive items that are only available there. Blizzard is not creating special items for the auction house in which you need to buy in order to do anything. Blizzard is ACTUALLY regulating the black market which has plagued online video games for the longest time. In no way is the Diablo 3 auction house buying success at all, and I am sorry that your understanding of this concept is blinded by your ignorance. Pay to win does exist in the Western Market however it is not popular and most companies change up how they market in the West if they want to see any sort of popularity. As a western market people spend millions on changing the color of their hair but o gosh tell them to spend 1 penny for something that is a necessity it is over will. (Makes sense as it leaves all combat items to acquiring from in game sources and if you look at D3 yes those items are acquired all from an in game source).

 

Hopefully you do a bit of research in your future, and you learn about systems and why they are implemented before posting nonsensicle rants that do nothing but point out your own ignorance and nothing about the game industry.

That makes as much sense as combating heroin abuse by legalizing it.

Nerf09

Originally posted by Draegoth

This is my take on RMT:

There are really 2 types of gamers,

A: People with alot of time that dont have extra money. (example can play 24 / 7 - dont have a job etc).

B: People with alot of money that dont have alot of extra time. (example work 5 / days week, married , have kids - have a life).

C:  People who have no job, or sell drugs, or continue to leech off mommy or daddy well into their 30's (probably till they die), and can also play 24/7.

  Those who can't afford it (see gambling addiction), but still pay for it.

E:  Dependents

F:  Natural born cheaters/losers

 

Nerf09

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Alot of people do not have the time to put into a game so the best soloution for them are to buy stuff instead of putting in the time to earn stuff.  To me it is like this, real life is greater than gaming hobby so if you don't have the time to game then perhaps it was not meant for those to be gaming. There is no way people can be in 2 places at once so unfortunately something has to be sacrificed. 

What part of, "You don't cheat in a game" don't you get?

Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera.

Other things that you can't do if you don't have the time because of family or career:

• 
  Play basketball - would you go to a pick-up game and declare that your shots should count for 3 points, here's some cash? (side note: if you're going to try this downtown, please let us know when and where)
• 
  Play Risk - do you ask for extra armies or an extra die because you don't have the time?
• 
  Monoply - do you ask for Park Place up front?
• 
  Compete in anything at all - do you whine until someone gives you a handicap?
• 
  Climb mountains - do you get airlifted to the top and claim to be a mountain climber? This is probably the best example. Mountain climbing is about personal achievement and people are proud of their accomplishments. If airlifting is an acceptable way to be called a mountain climber it cheapens what the real mountain climbers are doing.

What you do and how you play a game affects all of the other people in the game. By giving yourself shortcuts you cheapen the time put in by people playing within the rules of the game. Rewards become meaningless if you can buy them.

• 
  If you buy clothing, you affect crafters. This is game changing for them
• 
  If you buy health, the devs increase the difficulty of the game to force you to burn through heath faster. They also decrease the frequency of health potions dropping. This affects all the people in the game, especially those that are there to actually play the game.

In conclusion - MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera for everyone else. Go buy a Legolas standie and dress that up.

 

Actually your examples are broken. In MMO's you don't pay to suddenly have cleared content or gained achievements or whatever. You pay for gear which makes it easier.

Don't people pay a lot for top notch sports shoes?

Don't people pay a lot for awesome tennis rackets?

Don't people pay a lot to pimp their airsoft weapons?

Doesn't a golf stick that you bought for 1k euro give you an edge over the guy who made his own out of wood? (unless he's a professional craftsman, he might have made an awesome one)

and i could go on.

I many hobbies people pay MONEY to upgrade their gear which makes it "easier".

You could just play airsoft with the cheapest gun you could find but it's gonna be harder than with one which has been upgraded to have a better range, accuracy and rof.

Actually, your examples fall under the classic logical fallacy of misdirection - none of the things allow you to work faster, run faster or have better aim. It all comes down to your skill. More expensive gear doesn't make the miles shorter, give you less furniture to build and buying gear doesn't result in anyone else's race or hobby becoming harder like it does in MMOs. In MMOs buying health is like using performance enhancing drugs, not having better shoes. Buying weapons is like using a corked bat. All of the 'armor' on a football fields is standardized. Hell, they even have to wear the same brand shoes. Ever hear of the term "level playing field"?

In real life there are endless rewards to go for and endless ways to get to them. A MMO is much much smaller which means the impact of cheating is far greater. There are only a few types of rewards and only a few ways to get at them.

What I find funny about the above statement is your use of examples...   Buying health is something any player can do for one, or just stock up on potions for free...   As for the gear being a corked bat, well obviously there's more then a few people with the same gear hence why it was for sale in the first place.   No one is going to sell better gear then they are currently wearing unless they can't equip it.   So your logic completely fails on all grounds, besides the fact that illegal drug usage and corked bat usage results in extreme measures by the MLB, where in your MMO it just results in lots of time saving to get to what you want quicker.   Always a price for convinience

There's nothing funny about it. You're not going to be a great woodworker because you have a fancy router. You're not going to complete an Iron Man triatholon because you bought something.

And this statement has got to be the funniest I've seen:

"Buying health is something any player can do for one" - that's what this entire debate is about. We don't want to be forced to buy extra crap because you personally don't have the time to play.

This is a fallacy:

"or just stock up on potions for free" because if potions are available for cash, the devs adjust the difficulty for everyone, not just you.

Believing you have the right to change the rules of a game because you don't have the time to put into it is just selfish.

Who said people aren't selfish?   I know when it comes to gaming I definitely am as selfish as it gets...   Most people are in that fact.    What you want and what you're going to get are two completely different things, stop acting like a spoiled child and expect everything to be free and easy for you to obtain.     There is two choices...  PAY for easy, WORK for easy.  There is no hand held, hello kitty online express method to this...   Either pay or work, simple as that.      This mentality of people thinking games should be more time consuming then a full time job really need to get their head checked, it's pathetic how I see so many ignore everyone in their life and focus on only their game at hand.   Yea casuals might not have time to put in 40 hours in a week to get where they need to go, how about I just use money from my job and pay to surpass the guy who just wasted 40 hours of their life when they could be doing something with it.   I enjoy my stress free, uncompressed time to zone and just enjoy playing...    Yea there's a price for that too, ever heard of capitalism?

Hmm so the model you present of "you either pay or work" sounds a lot like something else I know about....ooh that's right!  

REALITY.

In my opinion, a GAME shouldn't be like reality, it should be entertaining.  I shouldn't ever look at playing a game as if it were work.  The fact that you believe a game is like work shows where we differ.  But hey, if you want a game to be like work, then P2W is the way to go because that's exactly what it will encourage the devs to do.  Make the game like work so you will pay.

And about your capitalism comment, I don't think anyone ever said they want a game to be F2P with no cash shop and no way for the devs to make money.  That's ridiculous.  I think all that anti-P2W people want is to buy a game just like old times and then maybe pay a sub fee.

Well I understand that desire for those gamers...   However the reality is that, box sales will never pay for never ending monthly bills...   Not small bills either when it comes to paying devs, servers, law suits, etc etc etc.   A subscription base is the least you'll ever see from any game.     Honestly the way it should be is p2p = sub and no item mall passed vaniety items and F2P item mall.    Unfortunately item malls are and have always been a pay 2 win feature well somewhat...   As I stated before the games I play are pay 2 win, however that's not completely from the item mall...   In fact the item mall is rarely ever used and the sole trading in the game is between players, so they set the price with in game currency.

My friends in game have played the game non stop for 5 years and are incredibly powerful with the best gear, I quit for 3 years and came back far behind them.   Now I got a choice where I can spend 3 years just to catch up where they continue to grow as well or I pay to get my ass to their level for being gone for so long so we can once again enjoy the game together.    Yea it has a bit of an unfair disadvantage I guess, but that disadvantage is to the people who are poor.  After all it's not like I'm the only one that has the option to pay or play, everyone does so what's honestly stopping them?   Other then their income.

Common sense ?

Maybe realizing that the game should be about the journey of acquiring your items and paying for them completely misses the point?

Basically, I think P2W / P2 Skip games are a bit of a scam.  They advertise themselves as F2P, but they really aren't.  Many of them are designed to be very grindy but give players the opportunity to pay to skip part of the grind by paying money.

But they don't really tell you this up front.  Instead, they let you play for free, get into the game, and then when you realize that you have to grind for a year to get what you want, you discover that you can just lay down a few bucks and get it right now.  So I basically think they're only really successful because they are fairly deceptive.

I made a mock poll to test this theory some time ago.  In the poll I proposed a game that was essentially pay to skip but told you this flat out.  It basically said you could pay a little bit but have to grind a lot, or pay more and have to grind less.  Not surprisingly, 80% of respondants hated the idea.  You can find the poll here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323722/page/1

Hated, most likely but do they still play them I bet you anything lol.   Yes the journey is what I have to agree about with being a main factor of a game for the most enjoyment, but for older gamers like myself who still enjoy playing them.  I don't want to feel the constant strain of replaying the same design over and over and over and over again.   Would you enjoy living your life if you were reborn every 30 years to have to go through the same shit over and over again?   I highly doubt it.   The problems with games these days is that gamers are getting older, many are getting tired of having the same old grind and don't want to do it anymore.    I am one of those people, so if I gotta pay a bit more money to skip the bullshit I've already done countless of times I will.    Yes it opens up a market for the devs but they're honestly doing me the favor and many others.   Call it ruining the genre if you want, but without gamers there wouldn't be games and most I've seen are willing to fork out the money if it's going to save them a repeat of what they've already done...   Hell go pay to watch a movie 10 times, or have the option to pay a bit more to watch a new one...  What would you do?

Then find a different game ?  Personally, I don't accept games that have huge unenjoyable grinds.  I just don't play them.  I got to like level 20ish in Aion and quit because I saw that it was going to be a boring grind.

It really sounds like you just don't enjoy the current theme park MMORPG experience and hey, I can't blame you.  I'm there too.

On the other hand, if you just want to level faster, there are plenty games that offer fairly fast leveling without the need to buy it.  WoW and Rift come to mind.  And if you get to max level in those games and don't want to subject yourself to the soul crushing gear grind, then do what I do.  Don't do it !

Quit, start an alt, you don't have to do the gear grind at the end of these games.

My hope is that future MMORPGs will find a way to hook people for a long time without being grindy.  That's why I'm so against P2W or P2Skip.  If P2W becomes the standard, then this will never happen.  All games will have grinds and you will have to pay to skip them.  It's a terrible future for the genre IMO.

Creslin321

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Alot of people do not have the time to put into a game so the best soloution for them are to buy stuff instead of putting in the time to earn stuff.  To me it is like this, real life is greater than gaming hobby so if you don't have the time to game then perhaps it was not meant for those to be gaming. There is no way people can be in 2 places at once so unfortunately something has to be sacrificed. 

What part of, "You don't cheat in a game" don't you get?

Ah man, Nerf I know we're on the same side here but you're kind of making us look bad by just flaming everyone.

Nerf09

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

 

I honestly don't mind being at a disadvantage in a game...   A challenge is what makes it exciting to a point, but then there's a tradeoff...   Am I willing to put in x time when I have other important things to take care of in my real life...  IE. kids, wife, family, friends etc etc.    If I had the time to contribute to games I definitely would.

Lemmie think of how to put this...   Should a game affect your  real life where it comes before your real life responsibilities and obligations?   Should a game tear apart your family, friends and relationships because it requires my time?    That's the problem with many  gamers in this world, they lose everything because of an addiction or desire to overcome others in a game but they need to put in so much time and effort trading off their real life.    I would rather have a pay to win scheme where I can get maybe not the best stuff in the game, or the best stuff and be able to spend time with my loved ones as much as if I hardly played the game at all...    I love games I always do but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for them, my money yes but not my life.

When a game starts to affect your real life you turn your computer off and walk away, you don't CHEAT.

weaponsmith2

I think you guys need to understand the difference between p2w and not p2w. 

 

Check out a game called age of champions on facebook, this game allows you to purchase unlimited amount of units to fight against other people in the game, this game is strictly PAY 2 WIN. how is diablo going to follow that route? Like many say above, if you don't want to be part of that world, you do not have too. Play the game solo! In age of champions you do not have that choice, you want to play without money? TOO DAM BAD everyone else is spending 1000's on a video game. What real gets me is, i can understand some people don't have time to spend on a video games to compete, but why would you just blow couple thousand dollers in a game to get unfair advantage, just like the aurhtor of this arcticle said about cheating, i thought about that right away, it compares exactly the same to it, Why take away from the game it self, by cheating to win! Sorry but money should not allow someone to win like that, Maybe a small advantage like some games have that you can get over with skill is ok, but this flat out p2w model some companies have is insane, D3 is nothing like that. Go play Age of champions online And tell me what  PAY2WIN game is(im sure their are more games out their just like AOC, that are very very very very PAY2WIN, and have no business in the gaming industry), they are just crack dealing crooks takening advantage of peoples addictions. Check out any of klicknation's games, and see pay2win models in full actions, real p2win models, You guys saying D3 is p2w are ignorant.

 

 As long as the game allows the non big spenders(because if you don't spend money on any games your just a leech, support your games!) to compete with big spenders, its fine they have a cash shop, but once they pass the boundry like the compnay said above, its Unaccpetable. 

Loktofeit

I think the biggest hurdle we have here is that the people who are opposed to microtransactions are holding back and not really sharing how they truly feel on the issue.

xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera.

Other things that you can't do if you don't have the time because of family or career:

• 
  Play basketball - would you go to a pick-up game and declare that your shots should count for 3 points, here's some cash? (side note: if you're going to try this downtown, please let us know when and where)
• 
  Play Risk - do you ask for extra armies or an extra die because you don't have the time?
• 
  Monoply - do you ask for Park Place up front?
• 
  Compete in anything at all - do you whine until someone gives you a handicap?
• 
  Climb mountains - do you get airlifted to the top and claim to be a mountain climber? This is probably the best example. Mountain climbing is about personal achievement and people are proud of their accomplishments. If airlifting is an acceptable way to be called a mountain climber it cheapens what the real mountain climbers are doing.

What you do and how you play a game affects all of the other people in the game. By giving yourself shortcuts you cheapen the time put in by people playing within the rules of the game. Rewards become meaningless if you can buy them.

• 
  If you buy clothing, you affect crafters. This is game changing for them
• 
  If you buy health, the devs increase the difficulty of the game to force you to burn through heath faster. They also decrease the frequency of health potions dropping. This affects all the people in the game, especially those that are there to actually play the game.

In conclusion - MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera for everyone else. Go buy a Legolas standie and dress that up.

 

Actually your examples are broken. In MMO's you don't pay to suddenly have cleared content or gained achievements or whatever. You pay for gear which makes it easier.

Don't people pay a lot for top notch sports shoes?

Don't people pay a lot for awesome tennis rackets?

Don't people pay a lot to pimp their airsoft weapons?

Doesn't a golf stick that you bought for 1k euro give you an edge over the guy who made his own out of wood? (unless he's a professional craftsman, he might have made an awesome one)

and i could go on.

I many hobbies people pay MONEY to upgrade their gear which makes it "easier".

You could just play airsoft with the cheapest gun you could find but it's gonna be harder than with one which has been upgraded to have a better range, accuracy and rof.

Actually, your examples fall under the classic logical fallacy of misdirection - none of the things allow you to work faster, run faster or have better aim. It all comes down to your skill. More expensive gear doesn't make the miles shorter, give you less furniture to build and buying gear doesn't result in anyone else's race or hobby becoming harder like it does in MMOs. In MMOs buying health is like using performance enhancing drugs, not having better shoes. Buying weapons is like using a corked bat. All of the 'armor' on a football fields is standardized. Hell, they even have to wear the same brand shoes. Ever hear of the term "level playing field"?

In real life there are endless rewards to go for and endless ways to get to them. A MMO is much much smaller which means the impact of cheating is far greater. There are only a few types of rewards and only a few ways to get at them.

What I find funny about the above statement is your use of examples...   Buying health is something any player can do for one, or just stock up on potions for free...   As for the gear being a corked bat, well obviously there's more then a few people with the same gear hence why it was for sale in the first place.   No one is going to sell better gear then they are currently wearing unless they can't equip it.   So your logic completely fails on all grounds, besides the fact that illegal drug usage and corked bat usage results in extreme measures by the MLB, where in your MMO it just results in lots of time saving to get to what you want quicker.   Always a price for convinience

There's nothing funny about it. You're not going to be a great woodworker because you have a fancy router. You're not going to complete an Iron Man triatholon because you bought something.

And this statement has got to be the funniest I've seen:

"Buying health is something any player can do for one" - that's what this entire debate is about. We don't want to be forced to buy extra crap because you personally don't have the time to play.

This is a fallacy:

"or just stock up on potions for free" because if potions are available for cash, the devs adjust the difficulty for everyone, not just you.

Believing you have the right to change the rules of a game because you don't have the time to put into it is just selfish.

Who said people aren't selfish?   I know when it comes to gaming I definitely am as selfish as it gets...   Most people are in that fact.    What you want and what you're going to get are two completely different things, stop acting like a spoiled child and expect everything to be free and easy for you to obtain.     There is two choices...  PAY for easy, WORK for easy.  There is no hand held, hello kitty online express method to this...   Either pay or work, simple as that.      This mentality of people thinking games should be more time consuming then a full time job really need to get their head checked, it's pathetic how I see so many ignore everyone in their life and focus on only their game at hand.   Yea casuals might not have time to put in 40 hours in a week to get where they need to go, how about I just use money from my job and pay to surpass the guy who just wasted 40 hours of their life when they could be doing something with it.   I enjoy my stress free, uncompressed time to zone and just enjoy playing...    Yea there's a price for that too, ever heard of capitalism?

Hmm so the model you present of "you either pay or work" sounds a lot like something else I know about....ooh that's right!  

REALITY.

In my opinion, a GAME shouldn't be like reality, it should be entertaining.  I shouldn't ever look at playing a game as if it were work.  The fact that you believe a game is like work shows where we differ.  But hey, if you want a game to be like work, then P2W is the way to go because that's exactly what it will encourage the devs to do.  Make the game like work so you will pay.

And about your capitalism comment, I don't think anyone ever said they want a game to be F2P with no cash shop and no way for the devs to make money.  That's ridiculous.  I think all that anti-P2W people want is to buy a game just like old times and then maybe pay a sub fee.

Well I understand that desire for those gamers...   However the reality is that, box sales will never pay for never ending monthly bills...   Not small bills either when it comes to paying devs, servers, law suits, etc etc etc.   A subscription base is the least you'll ever see from any game.     Honestly the way it should be is p2p = sub and no item mall passed vaniety items and F2P item mall.    Unfortunately item malls are and have always been a pay 2 win feature well somewhat...   As I stated before the games I play are pay 2 win, however that's not completely from the item mall...   In fact the item mall is rarely ever used and the sole trading in the game is between players, so they set the price with in game currency.

My friends in game have played the game non stop for 5 years and are incredibly powerful with the best gear, I quit for 3 years and came back far behind them.   Now I got a choice where I can spend 3 years just to catch up where they continue to grow as well or I pay to get my ass to their level for being gone for so long so we can once again enjoy the game together.    Yea it has a bit of an unfair disadvantage I guess, but that disadvantage is to the people who are poor.  After all it's not like I'm the only one that has the option to pay or play, everyone does so what's honestly stopping them?   Other then their income.

Common sense ?

Maybe realizing that the game should be about the journey of acquiring your items and paying for them completely misses the point?

Basically, I think P2W / P2 Skip games are a bit of a scam.  They advertise themselves as F2P, but they really aren't.  Many of them are designed to be very grindy but give players the opportunity to pay to skip part of the grind by paying money.

But they don't really tell you this up front.  Instead, they let you play for free, get into the game, and then when you realize that you have to grind for a year to get what you want, you discover that you can just lay down a few bucks and get it right now.  So I basically think they're only really successful because they are fairly deceptive.

I made a mock poll to test this theory some time ago.  In the poll I proposed a game that was essentially pay to skip but told you this flat out.  It basically said you could pay a little bit but have to grind a lot, or pay more and have to grind less.  Not surprisingly, 80% of respondants hated the idea.  You can find the poll here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323722/page/1

Hated, most likely but do they still play them I bet you anything lol.   Yes the journey is what I have to agree about with being a main factor of a game for the most enjoyment, but for older gamers like myself who still enjoy playing them.  I don't want to feel the constant strain of replaying the same design over and over and over and over again.   Would you enjoy living your life if you were reborn every 30 years to have to go through the same shit over and over again?   I highly doubt it.   The problems with games these days is that gamers are getting older, many are getting tired of having the same old grind and don't want to do it anymore.    I am one of those people, so if I gotta pay a bit more money to skip the bullshit I've already done countless of times I will.    Yes it opens up a market for the devs but they're honestly doing me the favor and many others.   Call it ruining the genre if you want, but without gamers there wouldn't be games and most I've seen are willing to fork out the money if it's going to save them a repeat of what they've already done...   Hell go pay to watch a movie 10 times, or have the option to pay a bit more to watch a new one...  What would you do?

Then find a different game ?  Personally, I don't accept games that have huge unenjoyable grinds.  I just don't play them.  I got to like level 20ish in Aion and quit because I saw that it was going to be a boring grind.

It really sounds like you just don't enjoy the current theme park MMORPG experience and hey, I can't blame you.  I'm there too.

On the other hand, if you just want to level faster, there are plenty games that offer fairly fast leveling without the need to buy it.  WoW and Rift come to mind.  And if you get to max level in those games and don't want to subject yourself to the soul crushing gear grind, then do what I do.  Don't do it !

Quit, start an alt, you don't have to do the gear grind at the end of these games.

My hope is that future MMORPGs will find a way to hook people for a long time without being grindy.  That's why I'm so against P2W or P2Skip.  If P2W becomes the standard, then this will never happen.  All games will have grinds and you will have to pay to skip them.  It's a terrible future for the genre IMO.

*sigh*  You're missing the point...   Me and like many others have played several different games already and are tired of the same grinding when we try to find something new to play...   No I don't expect instant max level but at least make it a difference experience while achieving it or hell...  Make weapon skills your level and take character level out of the game completely.    I'm thinking something more like the Morrowind way of levelling, just better designed.

Nerf09

Originally posted by mizanyx

Stop thinking that a pure p2p without item shop is viable. If the game has no means to pay for character progression, external RMT traders will provide that means. In the past game companies simply frowned upon it and players who made pay-per-advancement transactions exposed themselves to being scammed. The reality is, people want the option of pay-per-advancement. Even if for some people seems an unfair, immersion-breaking option.

And as the game is a service, it becomes a best service by catering to what the service users REALLY want. And they want the RMT option. And they ALWAYS have wanted it, even if it wasn't legal and was frowned upon by fellow players and game companies.

We haven't 'lost our way this much'. The way was lost since the time MMORPGs were decided to become timesinks, grindfests, or moneysinks. A game character should not take months or years to develop for heavily PvP oriented games. League of Legends proved that about 45 minutes of character development till endgame is enough.

If there were a checkbox I could click where I couldn't chat with, or join a game with, or otherwise know exist, any loser who Payed2Win; I would be happy with that. 

 

I want to be isolated from the community of pathetic excuses of human beings.

Creslin321

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Creslin321

Common sense ?

Maybe realizing that the game should be about the journey of acquiring your items and paying for them completely misses the point?

Basically, I think P2W / P2 Skip games are a bit of a scam.  They advertise themselves as F2P, but they really aren't.  Many of them are designed to be very grindy but give players the opportunity to pay to skip part of the grind by paying money.

But they don't really tell you this up front.  Instead, they let you play for free, get into the game, and then when you realize that you have to grind for a year to get what you want, you discover that you can just lay down a few bucks and get it right now.  So I basically think they're only really successful because they are fairly deceptive.

I made a mock poll to test this theory some time ago.  In the poll I proposed a game that was essentially pay to skip but told you this flat out.  It basically said you could pay a little bit but have to grind a lot, or pay more and have to grind less.  Not surprisingly, 80% of respondants hated the idea.  You can find the poll here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323722/page/1

I agree that F2P's are often a scam (i avoid F2P's a lot) but i don't think people willing to pay for gear necessarily want to skip the journey. The problem is that even in P2P games there is quite some grinding. It's fun to do ICC for the first time in WoW but doing it for the 10th time because you still need loot kinda gets old. I can see how someone would then prefer to fill the remaining slots requiring an upgrade with items from a cash shop.

Though not really related to the discussion of P2Win , my issue with many MMO's nowadays is that instead of designing long journeys they make the journey repetitive. I miss the quests in Runescape that took a whole morning to complete , was much more fun than doing 20x a generic "kill x mobs" quests even though it took the same amount of time.

And because of this i can only understand people willing to pay real cash for not having to do 20x a generic quest.

If there is anyone to blame it's the P2P devs making their games grindy making people desire P2Win variants. (though, like you said, they can be somewhat scammy as they increase the initial grind)

Man, I didn't think I would say this, but I completely agree with you .

I always saw the grindy kill 10 rats model of P2P games as a problem, it was boring and repetitive.  But people seemed to get used to it and accept it as a fact of the genre.  Then the F2P games came along with tempting exp potions and cash shop items people gobbled it up.  After all, the grind would always be there right?  May as well pay a few bucks to avoid it.

But isn't this really a disservice to the consumer?  Instead of trying to fix a poor design choice, some companies just try to profit from it.  They deliberately put the players in a bad situation and then make them pay to get out.

The crazy thing is though that it's exactly like you say about P2P games.  If P2P games didn't set the precedent with the grind and make it acceptable, P2W games would never exist.  No one would have played a game that had a huge grind in it and made you pay to skip it before grindy MMORPGs came out...it would have been absurd.

xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

 

I honestly don't mind being at a disadvantage in a game...   A challenge is what makes it exciting to a point, but then there's a tradeoff...   Am I willing to put in x time when I have other important things to take care of in my real life...  IE. kids, wife, family, friends etc etc.    If I had the time to contribute to games I definitely would.

Lemmie think of how to put this...   Should a game affect your  real life where it comes before your real life responsibilities and obligations?   Should a game tear apart your family, friends and relationships because it requires my time?    That's the problem with many  gamers in this world, they lose everything because of an addiction or desire to overcome others in a game but they need to put in so much time and effort trading off their real life.    I would rather have a pay to win scheme where I can get maybe not the best stuff in the game, or the best stuff and be able to spend time with my loved ones as much as if I hardly played the game at all...    I love games I always do but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for them, my money yes but not my life.

When a game starts to affect your real life you turn your computer off and walk away, you don't CHEAT.

Wtf are you talking about?   Cheat?..   In what possible ways would the pay to win situation in say Eudemons have anything to do with cheating?    It's almost impossible to advance in that game without purchasing in game currency, it has nothing to do with cheating and even having unlimited in game currency you still couldn't cheat...  

For instance, you have pets in the game.   The pets have stars that contributes to your battle power.   You need to get more pets to compose into that pet to raise the star rank thus giving you more power.    Most pets need the ingame currency known as EP to even purchase.   The only way to get EP is to buy them or farm in game items to get them from other players.    So I go and spend my money to get EP to use to purchase items in the game that increases my power.    The free in game currency gold, is hardly used for anything...     So it's kind of pay 2 win mixed with pay to enjoy...   However it is possible to become the top player without paying a dime, it just takes years and playing several accounts at the same time to achieve it.

Nerf09

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

 

Please tell me the difference? You work because you have to. You play games for entertainment.

A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements.

Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form ofexercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.

 

• 
  fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
• 
  separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
• 
  uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
• 
  non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
• 
  governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
• 
  fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality

Rules:

Whereas games are often characterized by their tools, they are often defined by their rules. While rules are subject to variations and changes, enough change in the rules usually results in a "new" game. For instance, baseball can be played with "real" baseballs or with wiffleballs. However, if the players decide to play with only three bases, they are arguably playing a different game. There are exceptions to this in that some games deliberately involve the changing of their own rules, but even then there are often immutable meta-rules.

Rules generally determine turn order, the rights and responsibilities of the players, and each player’s goals. Player rights may include when they may spend resources or move tokens. Common win conditions are being first to amass a certain quota of points or tokens (as in Settlers of Catan), having the greatest number of tokens at the end of the game (as in Monopoly), or some relationship of one’s game tokens to those of one’s opponent (as in chess's checkmate).

A job is ordinary direct, or "full-time", employment in which a free worker sells his or her labour for an indeterminate time (from a few years to the entire career of the worker), in return for a money-wage or salary and a continuing relationship with the employer which it does not in general offer contractors or other irregular staff

"Hi I'm a middle aged overweight banker, I fail at baseball.  If only I could pay $20 to the umpire get a homerun, I don't have all this time to grind practice baseball I have a real job." 

 

Who would want to watch that game?  More then once.

"Hey this is a Capitalist society, those who run the basebal stadium have bills to pay, the more fat bankers who fail at baseball the better."

Nerf09

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

 

I honestly don't mind being at a disadvantage in a game...   A challenge is what makes it exciting to a point, but then there's a tradeoff...   Am I willing to put in x time when I have other important things to take care of in my real life...  IE. kids, wife, family, friends etc etc.    If I had the time to contribute to games I definitely would.

Lemmie think of how to put this...   Should a game affect your  real life where it comes before your real life responsibilities and obligations?   Should a game tear apart your family, friends and relationships because it requires my time?    That's the problem with many  gamers in this world, they lose everything because of an addiction or desire to overcome others in a game but they need to put in so much time and effort trading off their real life.    I would rather have a pay to win scheme where I can get maybe not the best stuff in the game, or the best stuff and be able to spend time with my loved ones as much as if I hardly played the game at all...    I love games I always do but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for them, my money yes but not my life.

When a game starts to affect your real life you turn your computer off and walk away, you don't CHEAT.

Wtf are you talking about?   Cheat?..   In what possible ways would the pay to win situation in say Eudemons have anything to do with cheating?    It's almost impossible to advance in that game without purchasing in game currency, it has nothing to do with cheating and even having unlimited in game currency you still couldn't cheat...  

For instance, you have pets in the game.   The pets have stars that contributes to your battle power.   You need to get more pets to compose into that pet to raise the star rank thus giving you more power.    Most pets need the ingame currency known as EP to even purchase.   The only way to get EP is to buy them or farm in game items to get them from other players.    So I go and spend my money to get EP to use to purchase items in the game that increases my power.    The free in game currency gold, is hardly used for anything...     So it's kind of pay 2 win mixed with pay to enjoy...   However it is possible to become the top player without paying a dime, it just takes years and playing several accounts at the same time to achieve it.

It's cheating, and you're a cheater.  Congratulations, you rationalized cheating in your mind.  *slow clap*

I'm trying to quit smoking, you know how many rationalizations pass between my eyes every 15 seconds you'd be amazed.

Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera.

Other things that you can't do if you don't have the time because of family or career:

• 
  Play basketball - would you go to a pick-up game and declare that your shots should count for 3 points, here's some cash? (side note: if you're going to try this downtown, please let us know when and where)
• 
  Play Risk - do you ask for extra armies or an extra die because you don't have the time?
• 
  Monoply - do you ask for Park Place up front?
• 
  Compete in anything at all - do you whine until someone gives you a handicap?
• 
  Climb mountains - do you get airlifted to the top and claim to be a mountain climber? This is probably the best example. Mountain climbing is about personal achievement and people are proud of their accomplishments. If airlifting is an acceptable way to be called a mountain climber it cheapens what the real mountain climbers are doing.

What you do and how you play a game affects all of the other people in the game. By giving yourself shortcuts you cheapen the time put in by people playing within the rules of the game. Rewards become meaningless if you can buy them.

• 
  If you buy clothing, you affect crafters. This is game changing for them
• 
  If you buy health, the devs increase the difficulty of the game to force you to burn through heath faster. They also decrease the frequency of health potions dropping. This affects all the people in the game, especially those that are there to actually play the game.

In conclusion - MMORPGs are TIME CONSUMING. If you don't have the time to play, play something else. Don't just come in and ruin a genera for everyone else. Go buy a Legolas standie and dress that up.

 

Actually your examples are broken. In MMO's you don't pay to suddenly have cleared content or gained achievements or whatever. You pay for gear which makes it easier.

Don't people pay a lot for top notch sports shoes?

Don't people pay a lot for awesome tennis rackets?

Don't people pay a lot to pimp their airsoft weapons?

Doesn't a golf stick that you bought for 1k euro give you an edge over the guy who made his own out of wood? (unless he's a professional craftsman, he might have made an awesome one)

and i could go on.

I many hobbies people pay MONEY to upgrade their gear which makes it "easier".

You could just play airsoft with the cheapest gun you could find but it's gonna be harder than with one which has been upgraded to have a better range, accuracy and rof.

Actually, your examples fall under the classic logical fallacy of misdirection - none of the things allow you to work faster, run faster or have better aim. It all comes down to your skill. More expensive gear doesn't make the miles shorter, give you less furniture to build and buying gear doesn't result in anyone else's race or hobby becoming harder like it does in MMOs. In MMOs buying health is like using performance enhancing drugs, not having better shoes. Buying weapons is like using a corked bat. All of the 'armor' on a football fields is standardized. Hell, they even have to wear the same brand shoes. Ever hear of the term "level playing field"?

In real life there are endless rewards to go for and endless ways to get to them. A MMO is much much smaller which means the impact of cheating is far greater. There are only a few types of rewards and only a few ways to get at them.

What I find funny about the above statement is your use of examples...   Buying health is something any player can do for one, or just stock up on potions for free...   As for the gear being a corked bat, well obviously there's more then a few people with the same gear hence why it was for sale in the first place.   No one is going to sell better gear then they are currently wearing unless they can't equip it.   So your logic completely fails on all grounds, besides the fact that illegal drug usage and corked bat usage results in extreme measures by the MLB, where in your MMO it just results in lots of time saving to get to what you want quicker.   Always a price for convinience

There's nothing funny about it. You're not going to be a great woodworker because you have a fancy router. You're not going to complete an Iron Man triatholon because you bought something.

And this statement has got to be the funniest I've seen:

"Buying health is something any player can do for one" - that's what this entire debate is about. We don't want to be forced to buy extra crap because you personally don't have the time to play.

This is a fallacy:

"or just stock up on potions for free" because if potions are available for cash, the devs adjust the difficulty for everyone, not just you.

Believing you have the right to change the rules of a game because you don't have the time to put into it is just selfish.

Who said people aren't selfish?   I know when it comes to gaming I definitely am as selfish as it gets...   Most people are in that fact.    What you want and what you're going to get are two completely different things, stop acting like a spoiled child and expect everything to be free and easy for you to obtain.     There is two choices...  PAY for easy, WORK for easy.  There is no hand held, hello kitty online express method to this...   Either pay or work, simple as that.      This mentality of people thinking games should be more time consuming then a full time job really need to get their head checked, it's pathetic how I see so many ignore everyone in their life and focus on only their game at hand.   Yea casuals might not have time to put in 40 hours in a week to get where they need to go, how about I just use money from my job and pay to surpass the guy who just wasted 40 hours of their life when they could be doing something with it.   I enjoy my stress free, uncompressed time to zone and just enjoy playing...    Yea there's a price for that too, ever heard of capitalism?

Hmm so the model you present of "you either pay or work" sounds a lot like something else I know about....ooh that's right!  

REALITY.

In my opinion, a GAME shouldn't be like reality, it should be entertaining.  I shouldn't ever look at playing a game as if it were work.  The fact that you believe a game is like work shows where we differ.  But hey, if you want a game to be like work, then P2W is the way to go because that's exactly what it will encourage the devs to do.  Make the game like work so you will pay.

And about your capitalism comment, I don't think anyone ever said they want a game to be F2P with no cash shop and no way for the devs to make money.  That's ridiculous.  I think all that anti-P2W people want is to buy a game just like old times and then maybe pay a sub fee.

Well I understand that desire for those gamers...   However the reality is that, box sales will never pay for never ending monthly bills...   Not small bills either when it comes to paying devs, servers, law suits, etc etc etc.   A subscription base is the least you'll ever see from any game.     Honestly the way it should be is p2p = sub and no item mall passed vaniety items and F2P item mall.    Unfortunately item malls are and have always been a pay 2 win feature well somewhat...   As I stated before the games I play are pay 2 win, however that's not completely from the item mall...   In fact the item mall is rarely ever used and the sole trading in the game is between players, so they set the price with in game currency.

My friends in game have played the game non stop for 5 years and are incredibly powerful with the best gear, I quit for 3 years and came back far behind them.   Now I got a choice where I can spend 3 years just to catch up where they continue to grow as well or I pay to get my ass to their level for being gone for so long so we can once again enjoy the game together.    Yea it has a bit of an unfair disadvantage I guess, but that disadvantage is to the people who are poor.  After all it's not like I'm the only one that has the option to pay or play, everyone does so what's honestly stopping them?   Other then their income.

Common sense ?

Maybe realizing that the game should be about the journey of acquiring your items and paying for them completely misses the point?

Basically, I think P2W / P2 Skip games are a bit of a scam.  They advertise themselves as F2P, but they really aren't.  Many of them are designed to be very grindy but give players the opportunity to pay to skip part of the grind by paying money.

But they don't really tell you this up front.  Instead, they let you play for free, get into the game, and then when you realize that you have to grind for a year to get what you want, you discover that you can just lay down a few bucks and get it right now.  So I basically think they're only really successful because they are fairly deceptive.

I made a mock poll to test this theory some time ago.  In the poll I proposed a game that was essentially pay to skip but told you this flat out.  It basically said you could pay a little bit but have to grind a lot, or pay more and have to grind less.  Not surprisingly, 80% of respondants hated the idea.  You can find the poll here:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323722/page/1

Hated, most likely but do they still play them I bet you anything lol.   Yes the journey is what I have to agree about with being a main factor of a game for the most enjoyment, but for older gamers like myself who still enjoy playing them.  I don't want to feel the constant strain of replaying the same design over and over and over and over again.   Would you enjoy living your life if you were reborn every 30 years to have to go through the same shit over and over again?   I highly doubt it.   The problems with games these days is that gamers are getting older, many are getting tired of having the same old grind and don't want to do it anymore.    I am one of those people, so if I gotta pay a bit more money to skip the bullshit I've already done countless of times I will.    Yes it opens up a market for the devs but they're honestly doing me the favor and many others.   Call it ruining the genre if you want, but without gamers there wouldn't be games and most I've seen are willing to fork out the money if it's going to save them a repeat of what they've already done...   Hell go pay to watch a movie 10 times, or have the option to pay a bit more to watch a new one...  What would you do?

Then find a different game ?  Personally, I don't accept games that have huge unenjoyable grinds.  I just don't play them.  I got to like level 20ish in Aion and quit because I saw that it was going to be a boring grind.

It really sounds like you just don't enjoy the current theme park MMORPG experience and hey, I can't blame you.  I'm there too.

On the other hand, if you just want to level faster, there are plenty games that offer fairly fast leveling without the need to buy it.  WoW and Rift come to mind.  And if you get to max level in those games and don't want to subject yourself to the soul crushing gear grind, then do what I do.  Don't do it !

Quit, start an alt, you don't have to do the gear grind at the end of these games.

My hope is that future MMORPGs will find a way to hook people for a long time without being grindy.  That's why I'm so against P2W or P2Skip.  If P2W becomes the standard, then this will never happen.  All games will have grinds and you will have to pay to skip them.  It's a terrible future for the genre IMO.

*sigh*  You're missing the point...   Me and like many others have played several different games already and are tired of the same grinding when we try to find something new to play...   No I don't expect instant max level but at least make it a difference experience while achieving it or hell...  Make weapon skills your level and take character level out of the game completely.    I'm thinking something more like the Morrowind way of levelling, just better designed.

Nah I think I get your point.  We just made a different decision.  You decided to play the games but just pay to skip the grind, I decided to play single player games until a good MMO comes out .

As for wanting a good skill based MMORPG...welcome to MMORPG.com !  Home of all homeless sandbox fans with nowhere else to go.  I'm right there with yah.

Nerf09

Originally posted by huskie77

Nerf, your logic fails you again. A baseball player is a paid entertainer. If he has no talent we don't have to watch him. A non-professional gamer plays for their enjoyment and can enjoy the game in anyway they want within the structure of the game itself. Please stop stealing oxygen from the rest of us.

 

edit: how do you know who is buying gold?

A game is a game, whether it's a baseball game or a video game.

DLangley

Please refrain from quoting more than 3 consecutive posts.

McGamer

Originally posted by Xzen

I don't know about you guys but D3 isn't pay to win for me. I'll be buying the game and selling off all the rares for real money. I guess it is pay to win if you're the chump paying real money for gear.

The only real chump and worse off one, is the fool supporting Blizzard's pay to win scheme.