@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one It's what they pay me for.
I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.
That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine.
My opinion column has nothing to do with this site, nor did I read the forums before I wrote it. (My days of obsessive forum-reading are long, long gone.)
And that's just the point: there are quite a few of us who would *like* to be frothing about SWTOR but aren't, and those opinions are formed just as yours are: from what we've read and what we've seen. Not being as excited about it as you doesn't make what our concerns less valid.
I admit that my frustration has more to do with this site than what you wrote and I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you. My frustration is directed more to negativity towards any new game because of the bandwagon effect (or should I say the "acting like a 12 year old effect). I actually enjoyed the fact that you provided a well written article that didn't make my head swim just trying to get from its start to finish. This is becoming a rarity anymore even from major media outlets.
I'm feeling pretty 'meh' about the game as well. I expect they'll do a really good job with the game, but I'm thinking I'm going to hit the "end game" and it will be the usual raid/gear grind. I suppose I could be pleasantly surprised, but I don't really think so.
What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example.
So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.
I'm not saying Raid Grinding is bad because obviously a lot of people like it. I'm saying I don't and I think that SW:ToR is going to go in that direction so I'm not all that excited about it. It's possible they could pull off a Raid Grind end game that works and in addition to that they pull off a Warhammer style RvR PvP end game as well, but I don't think so.
They could come up with something else...but they've chosen to go with a 'Leveling' model of progression. That means there's going to be a max level and that there's going to be an end game. That means they're probably going to go with something that's a known quantity, and the one that is the most known quantity that keeps working is Raiding.
Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.
You read books, well imagine being inside a book..being that Hero character saving the day..or obliterating someones hopes or dreams, or even their planet. You watch movies? You will be IN the movie, taking every step in the movie and watching it unfold before your eyes. Your choices will matter to you and make your experience different than any other player.
You will not only read, but hear people interact with you, through their own voice, who have emotion, fear, love, and hate.
You can fight to destory the Sith Empire and save the Galaxy, or rid the Galaxy of the Republic and be in large fights with other players to defend or destory.
It will make you feel like you there, a part of the universe.
Thats why I wanna play.
Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or 2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.
In any Online Roleplaying game, there's always a story in the world your character lives in. Wether or not you choose to acknowledge that story is entirely up to you. As an RPer I understand where your comming from- having a few choices for my character to make while progressing through a storyline feels limiting, but who's to say that you have to limit yourself to what happens in the game's stories? After all, once the cinematics are done and the story is told your still the one in control of your character, your free to make your own stories and RP however you want.
Personally, as an RPer, I find having more options to my quest.. you say its scripted, but it gives your character more voice then to "accept" and "complete" the quests, which seems to be the norm in most MMORPGs (in my experience anyway). It always kinda bugged me that quest givers just assume your character is a hero trying to do the right thing. But that is where the imagination of the RPer has always excelled. We don't let the game's story restrict us, I know I've RP'd the villain when most of my game's quests would have me believe I was some sort of angelic hero.
Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or 2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.
Isn't this the same currently? When you have leveled your char to level cap, you've done the quests, the next time with another character, they'll be the same. So why bashing this game aspect on SWTOR, when the current quest leveling situation is even less than that?
This is the question that I rarely ever get an answer to from sandbox fan(boi)s or the burnt out MMO vet crowd, probably because they know they can only reply with a weak or flawed answer: what is so superior about the current quest based leveling situation, that what SWTOR is doing isn't an improvement of it?
What BW is doing is revamping the quest leveling and make it more enjoyable than the current situation, I find it puzzling to see that people wouldn't like that. I think it must be people who haven't been playing or enjoying themepark MMO's for a long while. Well, I have, LotrO and Rift recently, I embrace and encourage any change of the current quest leveling situation.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one It's what they pay me for.
I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.
That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine.
Understandble, I guess the idea of wanting to be over-hyped seemed a little off to me, I do understand wanting there to be something you're excited about though, hey we always have TES IV:). Shameless plug I know :P...
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
Limited though character/storyline choices are always going to be in an MMO compared to PnP, simply because they have to be scripted (at least until we get Wintermute running our games :P) it's a good thing that BW is trying to give us more of them. Hopefully it *will* be possible to go through the story once in one way, and then again with an alt in a completely different way.
I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.
Originally posted by Chilliesauce Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Chilliesauce
Originally posted by lizardbones I'm feeling pretty 'meh' about the game as well. I expect they'll do a really good job with the game, but I'm thinking I'm going to hit the "end game" and it will be the usual raid/gear grind. I suppose I could be pleasantly surprised, but I don't really think so.
What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example. So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.
I'm not saying Raid Grinding is bad because obviously a lot of people like it. I'm saying I don't and I think that SW:ToR is going to go in that direction so I'm not all that excited about it. It's possible they could pull off a Raid Grind end game that works and in addition to that they pull off a Warhammer style RvR PvP end game as well, but I don't think so.
They could come up with something else...but they've chosen to go with a 'Leveling' model of progression. That means there's going to be a max level and that there's going to be an end game. That means they're probably going to go with something that's a known quantity, and the one that is the most known quantity that keeps working is Raiding.
Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.
It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.
But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I was born during the release of the original Star Wars: A New Hope. Thus, I was raised within this precedented sci-fi realm. It's something that you just don't grow out of.
HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that I haven't mentally evolved with the genre. I'm older. Pure simplicity doesn't sustain my interest. I yearn for a certain degree of depth and complexity. SWTOR doesn't seem to offer that. It seems to be more geared toward the new blood of Star Wars - those who grew up with Episode 1, 2, and 3 (the young).
I'm not asking for SWG 2.0. I do, however, wish that the game contained some on-the-side forms of social-sandbox elements, e.g., planets spefically made for housing, cities, player shops, incentive to hangout in the cantinas, etc.
The game, in my opinion, would be a sure win had it contained the perfect blend of Sand Box and Theme Park elements.
This was me during the Empire Strikes Back Days (look at the couch!):
Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or 2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.
I haven't played a single MMO which does not have a story or lore. Only difference is that SWTOR story si more interactive. As far as players makign their own story well i have played Sandbox too and players are incapable of coming up with interesting stories. Unless PKing and looting other players is considered to be a good story.
I can understand the author's "Meh" attitude about the game... I have been "meh" about it myself despite having every intention of playing the game. I think that playing MMos as long as I have (started with DAoC, been playing them on and off ever since) you begin to realize that hype is the worst thing you can have. Not only does it make the wait for your target game excrutiating, but it sets the bar high because you pump yourself up with expectations. Everytime I let the hype of a game carry me along I end up disappointed, so with ToR I've just remained a little impartial. I'm a big star wars fan but I won't ruin it for myself by putting it on a pedestal and making all sorts of crazy expectations for it.. I'll just wait for it to come to me.. then play it. I'm sure I'll enjoy the story at least, as for the rest of the game, I can only hope it is fun and exciting enough to keep my attention. Lord knows I've barely lasted a month or two playing any other MMO before I started to get bored.
I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.
I think this is something many gamers overlook they seem to expect large strides in innovation, when that doesn't even happen in the less risky or expensive single player realm. Baby steps are just safer, when you're banking other peoples money on a game, you can't be careless, you have to think in a practicle manner.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.
But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.
I guess my argument there would be that those features are population dependant. What happens if one server has 70% or more of 1 side? The other side gets rolled, and begins to fade away. A 3rd faction could fix this, but that would demand adding another 3rd onto the game, adding, prehaps another 2-3 years of development because of class design and story.
It would work in a small passionate niche community, not something mainstream, since mainstream internet people, arent exactly the happy, cooperative types.
It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.
But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.
Well it does matetr because if i critque something and believe that things could be done in better way i would explain my reasoning. A lot of players want something other than raiding but somehow are never clear on what is that 'other' thing.
As far as end game 'sanbox" style. This is not a sandbox game and raiding is bread and butter for themepark MMOS. As far as RVR is concerned i mentioned it in my previous post. What else are you looking for in end game? pvp., re rolling alts? there is only so much to do. As far as RVR is concerned this option is not totally out of window as Bioware mentioned several times in past that they love RVR and would love to incorporate it in SWTOR. However, i would like to mention here that RVR in WAR is also a very painful gear grind.
I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.
I think this is something many gamers overlook they seem to expect large strides in innovation, when that doesn't even happen in the less risky or expensive single player realm. Baby steps are just safer, when you're banking other peoples money on a game, you can't be careless, you have to think in a practicle manner.
Playing it safe didn't do much for AoC, WAR, LoTRO, STO, etc.
It's all the same piece of WoW steak... but with slightly different seasoning. Sometimes I want ribs.
As for the OP: I can understand that someone isn't enthusiastic about a game, or that it isn't the type of game a person needs for enjoyment.
What I don't understand is, why does this have to be a news article, and why hasn't this been done with other MMO's? Why didn't we see a 'Rift doesn't excite me' article, or a 'FFXIV doesn't excite me' or 'FFXIV, why the current themepark features work as they do, and why different isn't always better'?
Now that last topic would really have been interesting as topic, especially with the craving for something different or innovative as the dream solution to their jadedness, well, FFXIV was different, so why did 'different' not work and what kind of different does a new MMO need to be to satisfy that wish of some groups of MMO gamers?
Instead we get an article from someone, again regarding SWTOR, why it doesn't excite her. Surprise surprise, that person was heavily into SWG and loved its sandbox mechanics So maybe the article writer should expand her view a bit further and ask herself 'do themepark MMO's in general still excite me, have they excited me the past couple of years? Or have I grown jaded regarding them over the years?'
Now that would have made a far better introspective if such was added, adding some more depth to it. Now the article is more on the level of 'I want to like that guy, but I don't'.
Besides, are we now also getting 'The Old republic excites me' from other article writers to balance it out, or 'TERA/GW2/TSW/AA/etc doesn't excite or does excite me' news articles?
If so, please add some depth and interesting details to them instead of only fueling controversy
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or 2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.
I haven't played a single MMO which does not have a story or lore. Only difference is that SWTOR story si more interactive. As far as players makign their own story well i have played Sandbox too and players are incapable of coming up with interesting stories. Unless PKing and looting other players is considered to be a good story.
Im sorry you've had bad experiences. Have you even tried to find role players in your games?
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Playing it safe didn't do much for AoC, WAR, LoTRO, STO, etc.
It's all the same piece of WoW steak... but with slightly different seasoning. Sometimes I want ribs.
Actually to the contrary in AOC's case part of the problem IMO was focusing on bringing so much bling to the genre and not enough on what has been tried and true over the years.
WAR, STO etc... Wouldn't that be production value, and polish? Not to mention offering enough content to keep people interested?
LOTRO seemed to do fine, at least intially, they just eventually slacked on content additions, that's based on what I've seen anyway, your mileage may vary.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
I will say this, people all have different feelings about the game and I'm not going to try and convert someone by now everyone has made up their mind by either pre-ordering, waiting for the actual release, staying as far away as they can, or some where between.
I would like to point out that I am pretty sure they are limiting the "early access" to allow a smooth launch. So yes, by saying buy your game and get in early is a marketing ploy to get you to buy the pre-order is correct. But how about if bioware just emailed those pre-order people 2 weeks before and said thank you for pre-ordering you are allowed to download the game today 2 weeks before the release and start playing. People would be pissed and asking why didn't someone tell me I would've pre-ordered.
Second point on the pre-order. I am not 100 perent on this but the way I understood it from gamestop is I get my code from them but I haven't paid for the full game. Same with amazon who I have a "pending" order with. I have my code and use it for the early access. Play two weeks and don't like the game. I won't be going to Gamestop to pay for my copy. Why would Bioware risk this without knowing they have something solid to release. Seems like a huge risk to me. Not only that the backlash of horrible reviews in the first 2 weeks that would cause those on the fence to not by the game when it is actually available. I am sure Bioware is aware that their success lies it box/suscription sales after the game release and not from pre-orders. Maybe someone can shed more light on how that works but it seems to be the idea to me.
"Then theres the fact that its really just fantasy with fricken laser beams." I love this comment bc you can use this type of rational with almost any game. Its just fantasy with FILL IN BLANK HERE.
There is so much information out about this game, yet there is so much unknow information as well.
Again, everyone has the right to their opinion and I actually enjoy reading peoples views on games I like, be it negative, on the fence or agreeing with how I feel.
@MMO.Maverick - Sorry you were disappointed! I've covered a lot of what you mention in some of my older columns, and I don't like to rehash too much. Besides, there's only so much you can get across in ~1000 words. I'm constantly surprised at how short that really is, when I'm used to the freedom of going gigantic walls of text on my blog.
And again... this isn't news. It's opinion. It's what I do here. For news go kick Bill, he's the one with his finger on the pulse!
As for the OP: I can understand that someone isn't enthusiastic about a game, or that it isn't the type of game a person needs for enjoyment.
What I don't understand is, why does this have to be a news article, and why hasn't this been done with other MMO's? Why didn't we see a 'Rift doesn't excite me' article, or a 'FFXIV doesn't excite me' or 'FFXIV, why the current themepark features work as they do, and why different isn't always better'?
Now that last topic would really have been interesting as topic, especially with the craving for something different or innovative as the dream solution to their jadedness, well, FFXIV was different, so why did 'different' not work and what kind of different does a new MMO need to be to satisfy that wish of some groups of MMO gamers?
Instead we get an article from someone, again regarding SWTOR, why it doesn't excite her. Surprise surprise, that person was heavily into SWG and loved its sandbox mechanics So maybe the article writer should expand her view a bit further and ask herself 'do themepark MMO's in general still excite me, have they excited me the past couple of years? Or have I grown jaded regarding them over the years?'
Now that would have made a far better introspective if such was added, adding some more depth to it. Now the article is more on the level of 'I want to like that guy, but I don't'.
Besides, are we now also getting 'The Old republic excites me' from other article writers to balance it out, or 'TERA/GW2/TSW/AA/etc doesn't excite or does excite me' news articles?
If so, please add some depth and interesting details to them instead of only fueling controversy
Excellent post as always. I laughed when she said it was overhyped. Do you guys not read your own forums? If it wasn't for some of the more informative posters like yourself I wouldn't even visit this site.
@MMO.Maverick - Sorry you were disappointed! I've covered a lot of what you mention in some of my older columns, and I don't like to rehash too much. Besides, there's only so much you can get across in ~1000 words. I'm constantly surprised at how short that really is, when I'm used to the freedom of going gigantic walls of text on my blog.
And again... this isn't news. It's opinion. It's what I do here. For news go kick Bill, he's the one with his finger on the pulse!
As for SW:TOR… I want to be excited about it, I really do, and for a number of reasons. But I’m just not. I’m kind of ‘meh’ about it, to tell the truth. When I got the email exhorting me to “Come, faithful follower, and shell out a fair wodge of cash so you can be among the FIRST to experience the game (if you’re quick enough), so get your wallet already!” I looked inward and realized I didn’t really want to do as I was told. Meh.
Hah, so it is. Not my doing. I don't navigate to the comments via the forums, so I had no idea. But at least it makes some of the comments here a lot clearer to me.
Comments
@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one
It's what they pay me for.
I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.
That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine.
I admit that my frustration has more to do with this site than what you wrote and I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you. My frustration is directed more to negativity towards any new game because of the bandwagon effect (or should I say the "acting like a 12 year old effect). I actually enjoyed the fact that you provided a well written article that didn't make my head swim just trying to get from its start to finish. This is becoming a rarity anymore even from major media outlets.
Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.
In any Online Roleplaying game, there's always a story in the world your character lives in. Wether or not you choose to acknowledge that story is entirely up to you. As an RPer I understand where your comming from- having a few choices for my character to make while progressing through a storyline feels limiting, but who's to say that you have to limit yourself to what happens in the game's stories? After all, once the cinematics are done and the story is told your still the one in control of your character, your free to make your own stories and RP however you want.
Personally, as an RPer, I find having more options to my quest.. you say its scripted, but it gives your character more voice then to "accept" and "complete" the quests, which seems to be the norm in most MMORPGs (in my experience anyway). It always kinda bugged me that quest givers just assume your character is a hero trying to do the right thing. But that is where the imagination of the RPer has always excelled. We don't let the game's story restrict us, I know I've RP'd the villain when most of my game's quests would have me believe I was some sort of angelic hero.
Isn't this the same currently? When you have leveled your char to level cap, you've done the quests, the next time with another character, they'll be the same. So why bashing this game aspect on SWTOR, when the current quest leveling situation is even less than that?
This is the question that I rarely ever get an answer to from sandbox fan(boi)s or the burnt out MMO vet crowd, probably because they know they can only reply with a weak or flawed answer: what is so superior about the current quest based leveling situation, that what SWTOR is doing isn't an improvement of it?
What BW is doing is revamping the quest leveling and make it more enjoyable than the current situation, I find it puzzling to see that people wouldn't like that. I think it must be people who haven't been playing or enjoying themepark MMO's for a long while. Well, I have, LotrO and Rift recently, I embrace and encourage any change of the current quest leveling situation.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Understandble, I guess the idea of wanting to be over-hyped seemed a little off to me, I do understand wanting there to be something you're excited about though, hey we always have TES IV:). Shameless plug I know :P...
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Limited though character/storyline choices are always going to be in an MMO compared to PnP, simply because they have to be scripted (at least until we get Wintermute running our games :P) it's a good thing that BW is trying to give us more of them. Hopefully it *will* be possible to go through the story once in one way, and then again with an alt in a completely different way.
I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.
What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example.
So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.
I'm not saying Raid Grinding is bad because obviously a lot of people like it. I'm saying I don't and I think that SW:ToR is going to go in that direction so I'm not all that excited about it. It's possible they could pull off a Raid Grind end game that works and in addition to that they pull off a Warhammer style RvR PvP end game as well, but I don't think so.
They could come up with something else...but they've chosen to go with a 'Leveling' model of progression. That means there's going to be a max level and that there's going to be an end game. That means they're probably going to go with something that's a known quantity, and the one that is the most known quantity that keeps working is Raiding.
Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.
It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.
But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is why I'm bummed about SWTOR:
I was born during the release of the original Star Wars: A New Hope. Thus, I was raised within this precedented sci-fi realm. It's something that you just don't grow out of.
HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that I haven't mentally evolved with the genre. I'm older. Pure simplicity doesn't sustain my interest. I yearn for a certain degree of depth and complexity. SWTOR doesn't seem to offer that. It seems to be more geared toward the new blood of Star Wars - those who grew up with Episode 1, 2, and 3 (the young).
I'm not asking for SWG 2.0. I do, however, wish that the game contained some on-the-side forms of social-sandbox elements, e.g., planets spefically made for housing, cities, player shops, incentive to hangout in the cantinas, etc.
The game, in my opinion, would be a sure win had it contained the perfect blend of Sand Box and Theme Park elements.
This was me during the Empire Strikes Back Days (look at the couch!):
I haven't played a single MMO which does not have a story or lore. Only difference is that SWTOR story si more interactive. As far as players makign their own story well i have played Sandbox too and players are incapable of coming up with interesting stories. Unless PKing and looting other players is considered to be a good story.
I can understand the author's "Meh" attitude about the game... I have been "meh" about it myself despite having every intention of playing the game. I think that playing MMos as long as I have (started with DAoC, been playing them on and off ever since) you begin to realize that hype is the worst thing you can have. Not only does it make the wait for your target game excrutiating, but it sets the bar high because you pump yourself up with expectations. Everytime I let the hype of a game carry me along I end up disappointed, so with ToR I've just remained a little impartial. I'm a big star wars fan but I won't ruin it for myself by putting it on a pedestal and making all sorts of crazy expectations for it.. I'll just wait for it to come to me.. then play it. I'm sure I'll enjoy the story at least, as for the rest of the game, I can only hope it is fun and exciting enough to keep my attention. Lord knows I've barely lasted a month or two playing any other MMO before I started to get bored.
I think this is something many gamers overlook they seem to expect large strides in innovation, when that doesn't even happen in the less risky or expensive single player realm. Baby steps are just safer, when you're banking other peoples money on a game, you can't be careless, you have to think in a practicle manner.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I guess my argument there would be that those features are population dependant. What happens if one server has 70% or more of 1 side? The other side gets rolled, and begins to fade away. A 3rd faction could fix this, but that would demand adding another 3rd onto the game, adding, prehaps another 2-3 years of development because of class design and story.
It would work in a small passionate niche community, not something mainstream, since mainstream internet people, arent exactly the happy, cooperative types.
Well it does matetr because if i critque something and believe that things could be done in better way i would explain my reasoning. A lot of players want something other than raiding but somehow are never clear on what is that 'other' thing.
As far as end game 'sanbox" style. This is not a sandbox game and raiding is bread and butter for themepark MMOS. As far as RVR is concerned i mentioned it in my previous post. What else are you looking for in end game? pvp., re rolling alts? there is only so much to do. As far as RVR is concerned this option is not totally out of window as Bioware mentioned several times in past that they love RVR and would love to incorporate it in SWTOR. However, i would like to mention here that RVR in WAR is also a very painful gear grind.
Playing it safe didn't do much for AoC, WAR, LoTRO, STO, etc.
It's all the same piece of WoW steak... but with slightly different seasoning. Sometimes I want ribs.
As for the OP: I can understand that someone isn't enthusiastic about a game, or that it isn't the type of game a person needs for enjoyment.
What I don't understand is, why does this have to be a news article, and why hasn't this been done with other MMO's? Why didn't we see a 'Rift doesn't excite me' article, or a 'FFXIV doesn't excite me' or 'FFXIV, why the current themepark features work as they do, and why different isn't always better'?
Now that last topic would really have been interesting as topic, especially with the craving for something different or innovative as the dream solution to their jadedness, well, FFXIV was different, so why did 'different' not work and what kind of different does a new MMO need to be to satisfy that wish of some groups of MMO gamers?
Instead we get an article from someone, again regarding SWTOR, why it doesn't excite her. Surprise surprise, that person was heavily into SWG and loved its sandbox mechanics
So maybe the article writer should expand her view a bit further and ask herself 'do themepark MMO's in general still excite me, have they excited me the past couple of years? Or have I grown jaded regarding them over the years?'
Now that would have made a far better introspective if such was added, adding some more depth to it. Now the article is more on the level of 'I want to like that guy, but I don't'.
Besides, are we now also getting 'The Old republic excites me' from other article writers to balance it out, or 'TERA/GW2/TSW/AA/etc doesn't excite or does excite me' news articles?
If so, please add some depth and interesting details to them instead of only fueling controversy
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Im sorry you've had bad experiences. Have you even tried to find role players in your games?
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Actually to the contrary in AOC's case part of the problem IMO was focusing on bringing so much bling to the genre and not enough on what has been tried and true over the years.
WAR, STO etc... Wouldn't that be production value, and polish? Not to mention offering enough content to keep people interested?
LOTRO seemed to do fine, at least intially, they just eventually slacked on content additions, that's based on what I've seen anyway, your mileage may vary.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
"I’m also not certain I want to play a single-player RPG that just happens to have other people in it. "
This shows me that you don't know what you're talking about.
I will say this, people all have different feelings about the game and I'm not going to try and convert someone by now everyone has made up their mind by either pre-ordering, waiting for the actual release, staying as far away as they can, or some where between.
I would like to point out that I am pretty sure they are limiting the "early access" to allow a smooth launch. So yes, by saying buy your game and get in early is a marketing ploy to get you to buy the pre-order is correct. But how about if bioware just emailed those pre-order people 2 weeks before and said thank you for pre-ordering you are allowed to download the game today 2 weeks before the release and start playing. People would be pissed and asking why didn't someone tell me I would've pre-ordered.
Second point on the pre-order. I am not 100 perent on this but the way I understood it from gamestop is I get my code from them but I haven't paid for the full game. Same with amazon who I have a "pending" order with. I have my code and use it for the early access. Play two weeks and don't like the game. I won't be going to Gamestop to pay for my copy. Why would Bioware risk this without knowing they have something solid to release. Seems like a huge risk to me. Not only that the backlash of horrible reviews in the first 2 weeks that would cause those on the fence to not by the game when it is actually available. I am sure Bioware is aware that their success lies it box/suscription sales after the game release and not from pre-orders. Maybe someone can shed more light on how that works but it seems to be the idea to me.
"Then theres the fact that its really just fantasy with fricken laser beams." I love this comment bc you can use this type of rational with almost any game. Its just fantasy with FILL IN BLANK HERE.
There is so much information out about this game, yet there is so much unknow information as well.
Again, everyone has the right to their opinion and I actually enjoy reading peoples views on games I like, be it negative, on the fence or agreeing with how I feel.
Happy gaming.
@MMO.Maverick - Sorry you were disappointed! I've covered a lot of what you mention in some of my older columns, and I don't like to rehash too much. Besides, there's only so much you can get across in ~1000 words. I'm constantly surprised at how short that really is, when I'm used to the freedom of going gigantic walls of text on my blog.
And again... this isn't news. It's opinion. It's what I do here. For news go kick Bill, he's the one with his finger on the pulse!
Excellent post as always. I laughed when she said it was overhyped. Do you guys not read your own forums? If it wasn't for some of the more informative posters like yourself I wouldn't even visit this site.
In Bioware we trust!
But it is in the News Discussion Forum...
In Bioware we trust!
Hah, so it is. Not my doing. I don't navigate to the comments via the forums, so I had no idea. But at least it makes some of the comments here a lot clearer to me.