Looked to me like any other boss fight from every other themepark MMO game out there. Kind of like riding the Texas Giant here in TX at Six Flags and then going to Six Flags in say Georgia and riding the "Georgia Giant". Same ride, different coat of paint.
Least that's the way it looked to me. *shrug*
That's how I feel. Aesthetically, it's very pleasing, but this looks like the kind of content that loses its magic after you've played through it once or twice. I really hope there's more focus being directed to the end game of TOR than operations.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Looks cool. However, how cool is this really going to be after playing through the same senario 10,000 times?
If you play through it 10,000 times it must be really, really cool.
I'm wondering the same things. It does look cool, but how fun is a raid going to be when it's just a raid with a Star Wars skin? Even the first time it's still the same old stuff - learn the dance, do the dance, do the dance over again until you learn the next part of the dance...and so on.
I wonder if they'll have information on their end game PvP stuff.
I don't think they'll have any information on end game PvP... if anything you'll be lucky to get videos of PvP at all.
As for the raiding, if people want to do it over and over again, then I don't see them doing it for many other reasons then them wanting to. Its not like you have to wait for rolling on that awesome random loot drop, and it isn't like you absolutely need the gear to compete at all. Sure there will be additional rewards for hard/easy modes, but I don't see people playing the same raids over and over again even if there could be differences here and there.
Oh cmon! You know the idea; "Do that raid to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete the raid that comes in that update, to get the gear to complete the raids that come in the other updates."
Lol, so their mystic, super-secret endgame is... TADAA the same as in every other MMO. Endgame gear grind and PVP arenas. What a revelation.
But then, I never cared for raids. It is just odd the wiped in seconds against the first boss. I have this nagging feeling the TOR raids and instances are going to be WAY too difficult. Every boss fight I saw people wiped 200 times. I just hate this "you have to make it EXACTLY as we planned or you wipe" scenarios, where the only difficulty is to guess the developers ideas.
Not that it matters to me much, since I don't care for PVP and raids anyway.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
But then, I never cared for raids. It is just odd the wiped in seconds against the first boss. I have this nagging feeling the TOR raids and instances are going to be WAY too difficult. Every boss fight I saw people wiped 200 times. I just hate this "you have to make it EXACTLY as we planned or you wipe" scenarios, where the only difficulty is to guess the developers ideas.
Tbh, i think they wiped on purpose to create that feeling.
Lol, so their mystic, super-secret endgame is... TADAA the same as in every other MMO. Endgame gear grind and PVP arenas. What a revelation.
But then, I never cared for raids. It is just odd the wiped in seconds against the first boss. I have this nagging feeling the TOR raids and instances are going to be WAY too difficult. Every boss fight I saw people wiped 200 times. I just hate this "you have to make it EXACTLY as we planned or you wipe" scenarios, where the only difficulty is to guess the developers ideas.
Not that it matters to me much, since I don't care for PVP and raids anyway.
Eh, those guys weren't really trying that hard against the second "wave", the giant boss-like robot. Really, it looked like they all ran into melee range to get hit by his AOE stun/knockback, and their healers didn't do anything for a good thirty seconds or more. I think they didn't want to show off more of the operation than necessary to give people an understanding of what they are, and I'm assuming their presentation had a time limit.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Wow, that team got smoked. I feel like none of them knew how to use their lvl 50 toon. The PoV player we were watching from was a combat failure. So short without teamwork.
Oh cmon! You know the idea; "Do that raid to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete the raid that comes in that update, to get the gear to complete the raids that come in the other updates."
b.....but, the biggest thing rare gear has is additional slots, ... and then the... rest is.. cosmetic. ...
So, maybe if they need that special set so they can look nice for the next raid boss I suppose...
Good. Seing part of Eternity Vault in action like gave me tingles. It was awesome! Love me some sci-fi. Technology, aliens, robots, space travel, intergalactic drama. I hope the game is polished at launch because it looks great. The test is, if there was no hype, and I just happened to stumble across a youtube clip of this game would still want to play it. And the answer is "YES."
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
I tend to disagree. You can't shoehorn MMO combat into action bar, ability queueing, third person action games. There are other ways action has been handled, and continues to be handled, in many other games.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Looks cool. However, how cool is this really going to be after playing through the same senario 10,000 times?
If you play through it 10,000 times it must be really, really cool.
I don't see why you'd have to run it 10,000 times. From what I understand Bioware is working rto reduce grind, i.e. you pick up emblems or some sort of items to trade for the loot you want rather than doing to event over and over again to get rthe right loot.
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
I tend to disagree. You can't shoehorn MMO combat into action bar, ability queueing, third person action games. There are other ways action has been handled, and continues to be handled, in many other games.
While I agree most of the people here will not understand this.
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
I tend to disagree. You can't shoehorn MMO combat into action bar, ability queueing, third person action games. There are other ways action has been handled, and continues to be handled, in many other games.
While I agree most of the people here will not understand this.
True that.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
People say that a lot. "There are many examples of other kinds of combat that would work in an MMO."
But they never give any examples lol.
I honestly can't think of anything other than pushing ability buttons that would work for MMO combat. And even other genres like action rpgs, adventure, etc use the same method. Would Jedi Knight, Age of Conan style aim, target, swing, combo work? Seems like it would cause a lot of lag in an MMO with big numbers of people on screen.
Oh cmon! You know the idea; "Do that raid to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete the raid that comes in that update, to get the gear to complete the raids that come in the other updates."
b.....but, the biggest thing rare gear has is additional slots, ... and then the... rest is.. cosmetic. ...
So, maybe if they need that special set so they can look nice for the next raid boss I suppose...
Lol.
On a general note; the first in-game character we see in that vid reminds me of Champions Online.
Looks good. I did not expect Bioware to deviate from the accepted raid mechanics and they did not. The storyline will certainly add to those raids, at least for the first few times. Can't wait to beat up the final boss!
Anyway, you do not have to run raids endlessly. Just join a guild that is pretty good and you generally spend 4-5 hours a week on raiding content once you have beating it once. It is the crappy guilds that make you suffer the endless hours.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I like the smaller raid format, and the raid itself looked nice. I dislike raiding but I do it, for me the major draw of this game is the crafting. That said this game is being made to be more user friendly, thats why skills have animations, ques, and groups are 4 people. Your supposed to be heroic, aside from that one part in the coliseum in episode 2 you never see huge groups doing anything in Star Wars. Forty man raids would stick out from the lore like a sore thumb, and personally those massive monster sized raids are why I quit raiding to begin with.
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
I tend to disagree. You can't shoehorn MMO combat into action bar, ability queueing, third person action games. There are other ways action has been handled, and continues to be handled, in many other games.
Very true, very, very true.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Raiding can be terrible, but it can also be amazingly fun.
Difficult content, that isn't brutal yet is still hard enough to not be blown through in a couple of nights can supply weeks of fun.
Adding in additional challenges, hard modes, achievements, etc. can extend that "fun" time frame a few more weeks.
But when you raid the same instance over and over and over for months at a time between patch cycles, it can be absolutely horrible.
Horrible if it's "on farm" and easy and you really are just there for gear.
Horrible if it's too challenging and you spend weekds beating your head against a wall.
As with all things in a MMO, it's all about implementation and balance.
My suggestion to Bioware -
Don't make us get all the gear from the "easy mode" in order to be able to complete the harder difficulties. More grind = more burn out. Don't make the difficulty gear dependant, instead make it coordination/skill/communication dependant. That way a guild can start at a level that is comfortable to them, and then progress to harder modes later if they choose to.
That being said..
1. I like the smaller group sizes.
8 and 16 means it'll be easier to put a group together, and less dead weight dragging everyone down - bad players will show up more quickly due to increased dependence on individuals.
If you have 25 people, and one dies, you have lost 1/25th of your potential ability/force. If you have 16 and one dies, you are down 1/16th so it's not much but it means everyone has to be a little sharper cause each player is worth more of the total group strength.
2. I like the focus on story - might not matter much after the umpteenth time an Operation is run, but initially it'll be very cool. In WoW, Icecrown was a whole lot more interesting then Naxxaramas because it actually had a progressive story. Again, didn't really matter after the first trip through, but it's a nice touch. If Bioware is going full tilt on story with it, could be awesome.
Don't know if they'll have 8/16 player conversations and dialogue choices in an Operation, but it may be sweet if they do. Again, at least the first time.
3. The concept of personal loot is amazing. No more ninjas, no more losing loot rolls after dozens of failed attempts, no more guild drama and BS guild/loot distribution politics...crappy 3rd party systems like DKP.
If anything, it forces the content to have a shorter shelf life, with personal loot you will hopefully get what you want to get/get geared out faster which HOPEFULLY means they'll be putting out more content, much faster then say WoW did.
Which means less runs per raid (Operation) which means less burn out, more fun.
I much prefered the "feel" of loot in Vanilla WoW or BC vs. Wrath/Cata.
Having gear from high-end dungeons and raids meant something because not everyone did it. Granted, that probably sucked for people who didn't raid or run heroics because what did they do?
Hopefully Bioware gives us much more of a Classic/BC WoW raid/heroics environment and offers enough content for solo and/or less skilled / casual players to keep everyone happy.
when are people going to relize that this will be just a copy paste job like wow and like 80% of the theampark mmo's out there..its what the devs / company was shooting for..and thats what they have..a quick money maker for 2011-2012 ..lucas arts is famous for doing this..releaseing a huge title..then ignoring it to make a zillion more spin-offs..just another cash ploy nuttin here to see keep moveing imo buyer beware dont drink the cool-aid!
I thought it was odd in Revenge of the Sith when Obi-wan declares it's over because he has the high ground. This is the same guy who killed Darth Maul after hanging from his finger tips over a bottomless pit.
Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by depain Looks cool. However, how cool is this really going to be after playing through the same senario 10,000 times?
If you play through it 10,000 times it must be really, really cool.
I'm wondering the same things. It does look cool, but how fun is a raid going to be when it's just a raid with a Star Wars skin? Even the first time it's still the same old stuff - learn the dance, do the dance, do the dance over again until you learn the next part of the dance...and so on.
I wonder if they'll have information on their end game PvP stuff.
It's ok not to like raiding, but some people loves it, it's what they want. Why does Formula 1, rally drivers, runners, sprinters etc do the same thing 10,000 times over and over again? They like competition, they want to be better, they want to win and they want the rewards for being good at what they do. It pretty much applies to raiding too and shares the basic principle.
I personally dont like end-game raiding much, and Bioware better have something else for (MEANINGFUL) end game too, or it's just class stories and quits for me, I hope not since SW world is so rich and fun that it would be nice to stay a while longer! But then again, I dont know anything untill the game is out and I try it, maybe I'd even get interested in raiding since the group size is smaller than usually, so it should be less organizing and second jobbing and more about getting the job done!
...oh and, LIGH-TE-NING STORM! I was so going to be a Sith warrior for first/main, and now I'm on the edge, very nice gfx for the lightning! ^_^
I had a comment here that referenced your post in thinking that the storyline was what you were expecting to get out of it. That's actually not the case, but continue reading as if it is the case since this first statement makes a lot more sense if that actually was the case. That's kind of what I expect to get out of it. The RPG storyline thing up until the raiding should be really cool. Even if it's only on one character, I expect it will be fun to play.
I'm not keen on raiding, so it's no surprise that the raid looked like a 'standard' raid setup to me. I could be wrong and playing a character in a raid could be a lot of fun...but I don't believe so.
What might happen though is that there is something else to do at end game that keeps me interested in the game, but that isn't raiding. Rift fell pretty flat right there. That's why I'm curious about the PvP. If they're doing the same sort of battleground thing with no real point to PvP at end game except gear then I probably will be doing a minimal amount of PvP at the end game. Which leaves (so far) continuing the quests and crafting. Unless that somehow ties in with what the other people I'm playing with are doing, I'll be done near or just after I hit the max level. Which, again, is fine because I have a fair idea of what to expect. I'd like to be surprised though. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
That's how I feel. Aesthetically, it's very pleasing, but this looks like the kind of content that loses its magic after you've played through it once or twice. I really hope there's more focus being directed to the end game of TOR than operations.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Oh cmon! You know the idea; "Do that raid to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete that other raid, to get the gear to complete the raid that comes in that update, to get the gear to complete the raids that come in the other updates."
This is not a game.
Lol, so their mystic, super-secret endgame is... TADAA the same as in every other MMO. Endgame gear grind and PVP arenas. What a revelation.
But then, I never cared for raids. It is just odd the wiped in seconds against the first boss. I have this nagging feeling the TOR raids and instances are going to be WAY too difficult. Every boss fight I saw people wiped 200 times. I just hate this "you have to make it EXACTLY as we planned or you wipe" scenarios, where the only difficulty is to guess the developers ideas.
Not that it matters to me much, since I don't care for PVP and raids anyway.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Tbh, i think they wiped on purpose to create that feeling.
Eh, those guys weren't really trying that hard against the second "wave", the giant boss-like robot. Really, it looked like they all ran into melee range to get hit by his AOE stun/knockback, and their healers didn't do anything for a good thirty seconds or more. I think they didn't want to show off more of the operation than necessary to give people an understanding of what they are, and I'm assuming their presentation had a time limit.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Wow, that team got smoked. I feel like none of them knew how to use their lvl 50 toon. The PoV player we were watching from was a combat failure. So short without teamwork.
b.....but, the biggest thing rare gear has is additional slots, ... and then the... rest is.. cosmetic. ...
So, maybe if they need that special set so they can look nice for the next raid boss I suppose...
The good, the bad, the ugly:
Good. Seing part of Eternity Vault in action like gave me tingles. It was awesome! Love me some sci-fi. Technology, aliens, robots, space travel, intergalactic drama. I hope the game is polished at launch because it looks great. The test is, if there was no hype, and I just happened to stumble across a youtube clip of this game would still want to play it. And the answer is "YES."
Bad. It's still typical MMO gameplay. Does't matter whether its UO, EQ, WoW, EVE Online, AoC, Rift, SWtOR, GW2, Tera, Secret World. It's all going to be hitting some buttons for skills and whacking on a boss mob. People who say "Gee wilikers! It looks like themepark combat," should be saying "Darn didilly! That looks like MMO combat." Besides dodging and blocking there's not much else that can be done with MMO combat.
Ugly. It hasn't released yet.
Only semi-related
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I tend to disagree. You can't shoehorn MMO combat into action bar, ability queueing, third person action games. There are other ways action has been handled, and continues to be handled, in many other games.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I don't see why you'd have to run it 10,000 times. From what I understand Bioware is working rto reduce grind, i.e. you pick up emblems or some sort of items to trade for the loot you want rather than doing to event over and over again to get rthe right loot.
While I agree most of the people here will not understand this.
My theme song.
True that.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Looks cool if raiding is your thing.
looks like a solid raid
People say that a lot. "There are many examples of other kinds of combat that would work in an MMO."
But they never give any examples lol.
I honestly can't think of anything other than pushing ability buttons that would work for MMO combat. And even other genres like action rpgs, adventure, etc use the same method. Would Jedi Knight, Age of Conan style aim, target, swing, combo work? Seems like it would cause a lot of lag in an MMO with big numbers of people on screen.
Lol.
On a general note; the first in-game character we see in that vid reminds me of Champions Online.
This is not a game.
Looks good. I did not expect Bioware to deviate from the accepted raid mechanics and they did not. The storyline will certainly add to those raids, at least for the first few times. Can't wait to beat up the final boss!
Anyway, you do not have to run raids endlessly. Just join a guild that is pretty good and you generally spend 4-5 hours a week on raiding content once you have beating it once. It is the crappy guilds that make you suffer the endless hours.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I like the smaller raid format, and the raid itself looked nice. I dislike raiding but I do it, for me the major draw of this game is the crafting. That said this game is being made to be more user friendly, thats why skills have animations, ques, and groups are 4 people. Your supposed to be heroic, aside from that one part in the coliseum in episode 2 you never see huge groups doing anything in Star Wars. Forty man raids would stick out from the lore like a sore thumb, and personally those massive monster sized raids are why I quit raiding to begin with.
Very true, very, very true.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Raiding can be terrible, but it can also be amazingly fun.
Difficult content, that isn't brutal yet is still hard enough to not be blown through in a couple of nights can supply weeks of fun.
Adding in additional challenges, hard modes, achievements, etc. can extend that "fun" time frame a few more weeks.
But when you raid the same instance over and over and over for months at a time between patch cycles, it can be absolutely horrible.
Horrible if it's "on farm" and easy and you really are just there for gear.
Horrible if it's too challenging and you spend weekds beating your head against a wall.
As with all things in a MMO, it's all about implementation and balance.
My suggestion to Bioware -
Don't make us get all the gear from the "easy mode" in order to be able to complete the harder difficulties. More grind = more burn out. Don't make the difficulty gear dependant, instead make it coordination/skill/communication dependant. That way a guild can start at a level that is comfortable to them, and then progress to harder modes later if they choose to.
That being said..
1. I like the smaller group sizes.
8 and 16 means it'll be easier to put a group together, and less dead weight dragging everyone down - bad players will show up more quickly due to increased dependence on individuals.
If you have 25 people, and one dies, you have lost 1/25th of your potential ability/force. If you have 16 and one dies, you are down 1/16th so it's not much but it means everyone has to be a little sharper cause each player is worth more of the total group strength.
2. I like the focus on story - might not matter much after the umpteenth time an Operation is run, but initially it'll be very cool. In WoW, Icecrown was a whole lot more interesting then Naxxaramas because it actually had a progressive story. Again, didn't really matter after the first trip through, but it's a nice touch. If Bioware is going full tilt on story with it, could be awesome.
Don't know if they'll have 8/16 player conversations and dialogue choices in an Operation, but it may be sweet if they do. Again, at least the first time.
3. The concept of personal loot is amazing. No more ninjas, no more losing loot rolls after dozens of failed attempts, no more guild drama and BS guild/loot distribution politics...crappy 3rd party systems like DKP.
If anything, it forces the content to have a shorter shelf life, with personal loot you will hopefully get what you want to get/get geared out faster which HOPEFULLY means they'll be putting out more content, much faster then say WoW did.
Which means less runs per raid (Operation) which means less burn out, more fun.
I much prefered the "feel" of loot in Vanilla WoW or BC vs. Wrath/Cata.
Having gear from high-end dungeons and raids meant something because not everyone did it. Granted, that probably sucked for people who didn't raid or run heroics because what did they do?
Hopefully Bioware gives us much more of a Classic/BC WoW raid/heroics environment and offers enough content for solo and/or less skilled / casual players to keep everyone happy.
lol i love this part
.....
when are people going to relize that this will be just a copy paste job like wow and like 80% of the theampark mmo's out there..its what the devs / company was shooting for..and thats what they have..a quick money maker for 2011-2012 ..lucas arts is famous for doing this..releaseing a huge title..then ignoring it to make a zillion more spin-offs..just another cash ploy nuttin here to see keep moveing imo buyer beware dont drink the cool-aid!
I thought it was odd in Revenge of the Sith when Obi-wan declares it's over because he has the high ground. This is the same guy who killed Darth Maul after hanging from his finger tips over a bottomless pit.
If you play through it 10,000 times it must be really, really cool.
I'm wondering the same things. It does look cool, but how fun is a raid going to be when it's just a raid with a Star Wars skin? Even the first time it's still the same old stuff - learn the dance, do the dance, do the dance over again until you learn the next part of the dance...and so on.
I wonder if they'll have information on their end game PvP stuff.
It's ok not to like raiding, but some people loves it, it's what they want. Why does Formula 1, rally drivers, runners, sprinters etc do the same thing 10,000 times over and over again? They like competition, they want to be better, they want to win and they want the rewards for being good at what they do. It pretty much applies to raiding too and shares the basic principle.
I personally dont like end-game raiding much, and Bioware better have something else for (MEANINGFUL) end game too, or it's just class stories and quits for me, I hope not since SW world is so rich and fun that it would be nice to stay a while longer! But then again, I dont know anything untill the game is out and I try it, maybe I'd even get interested in raiding since the group size is smaller than usually, so it should be less organizing and second jobbing and more about getting the job done!
...oh and, LIGH-TE-NING STORM! I was so going to be a Sith warrior for first/main, and now I'm on the edge, very nice gfx for the lightning! ^_^
I had a comment here that referenced your post in thinking that the storyline was what you were expecting to get out of it. That's actually not the case, but continue reading as if it is the case since this first statement makes a lot more sense if that actually was the case. That's kind of what I expect to get out of it. The RPG storyline thing up until the raiding should be really cool. Even if it's only on one character, I expect it will be fun to play.
I'm not keen on raiding, so it's no surprise that the raid looked like a 'standard' raid setup to me. I could be wrong and playing a character in a raid could be a lot of fun...but I don't believe so.
What might happen though is that there is something else to do at end game that keeps me interested in the game, but that isn't raiding. Rift fell pretty flat right there. That's why I'm curious about the PvP. If they're doing the same sort of battleground thing with no real point to PvP at end game except gear then I probably will be doing a minimal amount of PvP at the end game. Which leaves (so far) continuing the quests and crafting. Unless that somehow ties in with what the other people I'm playing with are doing, I'll be done near or just after I hit the max level. Which, again, is fine because I have a fair idea of what to expect. I'd like to be surprised though. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.