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No Death Penalty in SW:TOR. [Mod Edit]
Cik_Asalin
Member Posts: 3,033
As a matter of fact, when you die, you can be immediately resurrected on the spot! And without a penalty, as mentioned.
The brief explanation starts at 11:15 through to 12:35 in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebUMuuS1AZs&feature=feedu
Just click the “Medical Probe”, which is a resurrect in-place mechanism and allows you to get back in the fight straight-away, and in stealth no less! So it’s EASY for you to get back into the fight.
There is NO PENALTY to that what-so-ever. Of course your armor will take a durability hit that you can pay-off with a pittance of in-game money.
Not only is NOT considered or talked about being a "punishment", but it seems Stephen Reid (@rockjaw) explains, If he is the one actually explaniing, the actually political correct term is “CORRECTIVE TREATMENT’.
Christ. Okay. I had to get my justifiable dig on these entitlement themepark mmo’s out of the way for the week. Yes, I'm still looking forward to the "Journey" in SW:TOR, but it doesn't mean I have to appreciate everything.
Okay. . .Fire-away with the suspension of disbelief “but”s and disingenuous “awesome”s.
Comments
This isn't new information. /shrug
Whaaaa? /facepalm /walk away
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
My question would be why have anyone die, knocked out, or defeated then at all? The idea / mechanic itself is to represent the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, why even have the mechanism for failure?
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
What does this have to do with casual players?
I am casual and would prefer a penalty.
If they are planning on going even more dumbed down then wow why dont they remove death in the game ??
If when you die there is no penalty then people arent afraid to die in pvp or pve, so remove death..
mmorpgs arent what they uded to be...jesus christ...
yeah whats next players running around without the ability to lose health. god MMOs are getting pathetic. I understand people don't want to go back to the day were MMOs were a job and dying made you nearly want to delete your character and cancel your account .. but come on this is getting silly.
Wow thanks for the breaking news.
From E3.
Way back in June.
You know over 2 months ago.
Guess we all have to play Guild Wars 2 instead.
Oh wait.
You don't die in Guild Wars 2 either.
Let's go play some game that only 10 other people play so we can be hardcore.
I hear they have electrical censors that zap your balls everytime you die.
Not everyone follows a game as closely, this may be new info for some.
I hope the durability loss becomes a pain in the later stages of the game, otherwise there is no "corrective treatment".
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
LOL
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
Well, it does specifically say that a 'medical droid' will ressurect you, but doesn't go into any more detail. So maybe there will be a 1hr cooldown on its use, or maybe you have to purchase these droids and can only hold so many ~ 3 max sounds good to me?
Still though, I've always been one in favor of a death penalty,{including substantial XP loss} though it doesn't have to be like in the past running through multiple zones nekid as a jay bird, trying to locate where you frantically died at. Or in more worse occasions having to call in your high level friend or a GM to drag your corpse from the bottom of the ocean or river of lava...ah those were the days...le sigh
QFT, people "forget" that when hailing GW2 as the next Jesus and it's not just on death penality, like instanced housing or blocks in GW2 not seen much critique about it but my god TOR got instanced ships as home which is horrible. Or the animations in TOR is supposedly "clunky", well as far as I've seen GW2 is not much better, at least TOR can connect and block strikes.
The penalty when dying in TOR is just that, you lost, bit the bullet, start over. The droids take longer time each time you die and eventually you must revive at the cloning center or whatever it was called. I'm sure there will be some stats for PvP like times dead vs times won. We really don't need XP loss, item loss or whatever in addition even tough I would personally loved to loot one or more items from my opponent, I fully understand the choice in "penality" by BW.
The hardcore wannabees and poop-sockers would prefer that everyones gaming experience was miserable, then it would weed out the "casuals" and leave just them, the only ones "worthy" enough to play MMOs.
F**k those guys.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
OP left out all kinds of info of course. Come running to the forums with partial info and proclaim the sky is falling.
aaaanyway. You only have access to the medical probe while solo questing and its on a timer so you cant spam it. you dont get to use it while raiding or during flashpoints.
but please, continue with the gnashing of teeth and rending of whatever. /popcorn
I don't know if it's been changed, but originally the length of time between 'rezzes' increased per death. If that's still the case, that's more than enough. They're not after the 'hardcore' 5% of the marketplace. They're after the 95% of the casual players.
I know that *I* for one definately do NOT want to go back to the days of IOK where you had to run back to your deathpile praying that nothing disintegrated on the way!
Also about that Medic drone, he also said that if you keep using it, it will take longer and longer for the drone to appear.
So, I was defending this game earlier today. But NO Penalty is hilarious and freaking lame. Even though I have RL friends playing this, my excitement is waning by the announcement (didn't know this before this post even though others knew this in june). I'm trying understand how they thought this was a good idea?? They are clearly trying to out easy WoW. This game is making WoW look like MO or Darkfall hahaha.
Afraid to lose even one paying customer at the expense of making the game mildly thrilling....
I also enjoy throwing out the word dumbing down. Because it makes me feel good! Yay!
No comment on the subject matter though. Hard for me to say anything.
AWESOME!!! I'd play tha...?....wait..did you say it zaps my balls?...er...I...fug it...sure I'll still play. Now that's innovation!!!
like the other couple posters said, ya old news. like what, all the way back from pax east old? maybe older than that.
there is no dealth penalty is basic mmo standards, so the more you die and try to use the medical probe, your armor and weapons degrade as well as a longer timer to try to insta rez. could die too many times and end up having to wait more than 5 minutes til you can insta rez again.
rumored the new steel battalion has that kind of feature.
the way it works is that it rez you at low health and you get a 12 second stealth that lets you move away from the mob so you won't aggro right away. then you need to heal back up. and everytime you use it within a certain amount of time, it takes longer to rez.
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.07.2011 , 05:11 PM
Let's give you some details, since it's E3 and we're being generous
The reason we added this system is that the worlds in The Old Republic are huge and a travel death penalty turned out to be much more punishing than initially planned. Our testers were quite vocal about that.
Our testers also commented that they liked the more challenging content compared to other MMOs (no, Daniel's demo wasn't showing that, since running harder content and talking and answering interview questions is a bit much to ask of a writer
Since we wanted to retain the latter, but also fix the death issue, we decided to go with this solution.This system was just added. Currently, in testing, it works like this:
The first time you die, you have the option to summon the probe almost immediately or return to a med center. If a friend tries to restore you instead, the probe option is replaced by the 'accept help' button.
The second time you die (within 30 minutes), the timer to call the probe is 20 seconds.
From there on, the time increases so you'll probably want to go to a medical center instead (which will restore the initial timer).
As said, we just added this system and there's quite a bit of tuning left. We may decide to attach a service fee to the droids. We may make it so you have to purchase insurance in order to call the droids. We may take them out completely. Details like how it works in World PvP are still being tuned as well.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6651415#post6651415
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.07.2011 , 05:14 PM
We will likely put a limit on this ability when you are killed in PvP / by another player, even disallow it completely.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6651518#post6651518
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.08.2011 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuDragonne
Amazing how all the insta-rez proponents fail to recognize how the top writer for the game is talking on the film about using 2 people to take on a 4 person instance. Running around dieing (over and over) and kiting MOB's to basically cheat his way through it.
.
Hehe, Daniel will be disappointed when those holes he's exploiting are gradually shut down. As mentioned, we just added this system in testing, so there some rough edges.
That said, we're also not terribly concerned with people being creative about some of the heroic content. We're pretty pragmatic about it - if people have fun doing a one off heroic quest in a very creative way (like, let's say luring a bunch of enemies to a cliff and then pushing them over with a force push) and they're having fun, that's something we're potentially fine with. In fact, we find that a lot of the 'creative' ways people find around more challenging content seems to take more time than doing it the planned way anyway.
As long as there's a reasonable effort vs. reward ratio here, who am I to say that you and your friend can't have fun figuring out a way to get past that 4 man heroic?
This obviously doesn't apply to Operations or Flashpoints (Did I mention that you can't order a probe in instanced content like a Flashpoint or Warzone?), but for world heroics, we're definitely taking a relaxed view on these things.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6674340#post6674340
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.08.2011 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDreason
And the response from Georg is ridiculous as well. You took away corpse runs because beat testers didn't like it? Of course the beta testers didn't like corpse running... nobody does. That's why it's called a PENALTY for death.
Honestly, they may as well rename this game Carebears in Space if they plan on caving to every players request.
No. I'm a bit amazed (just kidding, this is the internet) that you think we would operate like that. But yes - if 95% of testers tell you that you have a problem, you listen. You don't shut your ears and sing to yourself 'they're carebears, they hate any penalty'.
We added this option because the impact of the 'walk back from medcenter' penalty, in our game, is huge - worse than in comparable MMOs. Here's why:
The distances in a world that is built to scale, on planets like Tatooine, are vast.
A lot of the content is not instanced and is open world and you don't enjoy fighting your way back deep into the objective areas when you die. We're not talking about 1-3 minutes of walking. In some cases, we're talking about 10-15 minutes of repeating content. That's not fun.
As Daniel explained, we're not shy of making challenging content that is interesting to overcome.
But content does not get more challenging by giving it a harsh, repetitive death penalty - penalties just happen after the fact and do not, in any way or form, make the content more challenging, fun or even difficult.
The only challenge a really harsh death penalty adds is to player's patience or tolerance to repeating the same content over and over. Most people don't find that fun, and we don't either.
By adding this system, we are able to create content that kills the player once or twice until they figure out how to overcome it. We can create challenges and players are given a chance to overcome them. They can afford to fail, regroup and try again instead of spending 15 minutes sitting around while some player tries to make his way back to the group.
If you are looking for hardcore and punishing death penalties that weed out the weak players (e.g. the ones that don't have infinite patience and time), The Old Republic will not be your game. That does not mean we're attempting to make an extremely easy game with no challenge.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6674889#post6674889
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.08.2011 , 09:39 PM
Except that the medical probe isn't available in instances. So there's that
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6682273#post6682273
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
06.09.2011 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_Waltfeld
My suggestion is first time is 10 second wait time or whatever. Every time after that is 1 minute, 3 minutes, 6 minutes, 9 minutes, 10 minutes cap. Much more giving system that can't be exploited by groups easily.
Well, the first time is 10 seconds for all options, including return to medical center.
We found that necessary to prevent people from quickly clicking something they later regret (e.g. go to med-center). A 10 second grace period allows players to cool down, assess the situation and gives their allies time to run over and offer a revival before people hit the button.
Having some 'think about what you've just done' time built into the system isn't bad either, it avoids adrenaline rushing a medical probe without taking a good look at the surroundings and where you want to go - the time you have to move while in stealth isn't a lot, so you need to have a pretty good idea where a safe spot is when you press that button.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6684497#post6684497
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
07.10.2011 , 12:12 PM
I'd just like to reiterate our stance that Death Penalty makes a game more punishing, it does not create a greater challenge to overcome. It's a mindset from the early arcade game times, when throwing barriers into the player's path ensured they would spend more quarters and time on a game.
A harsh death penalty causes players to play risk averse and conservatively, which is not our goal.
To resort to an overused term: It's not terribly heroic to be risk averse. Heroes take risks and reap great rewards. If Han and Luke had been risk averse...
The goal for us is to offer entertainment to our players. That means reducing incidents where players quit in frustration because they have to re-run the same content over and over. (Note that they may occasionally still quit in frustration because the actual encounter was too hard for them, but at least then the frustration is directly related to the encounter, not the penalty after it.)
It's not terribly heroic to rush in a dozen times and be defeated either, so we're taking care to calibrate the system where the on-the-spot medical probe isn't viable for one-man zerging through content.
Let me give you an example of an encounter in the game (without spoilers) we introduced after changing to the medical probe system:
At some point in the story, a Jedi character may end up on a Sith ship in a commando mission to take out a powerful Sith Lord who is said to have uncovered a powerful and deadly attack with the Force.
After fighting through Imperial troops, Imperial special forces and the Lord's prospective students from the landing bay to the bridge, the player finally gets to face the Sith. As Sith Lords go, he's pretty confident in himself and makes it abundantly clear, in slightly too many villainous words, that there is no hope of standing against him, etc. As Jedi go, your character may probably say something like 'Like most of your kind, you're pretty full of it'.
A battle ensues. 20 seconds into the battle, the player suddenly feels a stabbing pain in his chest, falls over and dies. Turns out that this particular Sith Lord wasn't joking about his capabilities.
An attentive player may have noticed what lead to that this turn of events and, next time faced with the Sith Lord, will make sure the outcome is different. Other players will pay closer attention next time, may fail again and defeat the enemy in the 3rd attempt.
Keep in mind that enemies will heal back to their previous state after the player falls, so there is no way to just rush this Sith Lord quickly and defeat him over time.
This scenario was not really possible in our game before the introduction of the medical probe. Before that option, you'd have to travel through the Sith Warship from the landing bay back to the bridge. If the content is open world and not instanced (and the largest part of our game is open world), you'd also have to fight through everyone again. That's between 4-15 minutes of 'death penalty' each time you'd die. Our testers absolutely hated that.
Now, with the ability to have a limited number of in-the-field revivals, this kind of scenario is one of the things we're deploying more widely through the game.
BioWare has never been afraid of using failure-learn-succeess mechanics in our games. A large part of what the Baldur's Gate series successful was exactly this mechanic. By introducing the medical droid option to the game, we allow ourselves to have challenging boss battles more frequently that require the player to learn and adapt to overcome the obstacle. We're in process of updating many areas of the game now to increase the overall challenge of combat as a result.
Obviously the threshold of what is acceptable is different from player to player and obviously we're aiming to hit the sweet spot that is right for most of our players, so yes, if you're ultra hardcore and wish the medical probe wasn't there or could be only used once, you're going to be disappointed ... but nobody forces you to use it. The 'revive at medcenter' (and walk up to 15 minutes back to your death location is always available.
If that's not acceptable, well, to put it after Obi Wan: "This might not be the punishing experience you are looking for", because that system is not going away
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
07.10.2011 , 03:16 PM
Another reminder: There is a equipment damage penalty associated with any death, so you are paying a deferred credit fee for dying.
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
07.10.2011 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zruker
What I feel Georg fails to address in his post is in the Open world someone who continues to try a encounter he has no business trying prevents others from accomplishing it or causing a huge line up. If you have to redo some of the content to get back to that part you are only going to do it if you have a reasonable chance. The idea that people will just team up on the open world is a bit naive also I think. Unless there is a loot system where every party member gets a copy of every piece of loot teaming in all cases doesn't make sense. Also some people want to accomplish on there own not have to team with someone who isn't capable just so they can quit waiting in line. Maybe they can develop a take a number system like at the deli.
Open world content is designed to prevent individual players from bottlenecking others, so I don't think this is a concern. Furthermore, the incremental time increase for summing the medical probe with each death should mitigate this scenario quite easily, along with the fact that after 4-5 death your equipment will be totally shot and you have to go back to repair anyway.
Finally, yes, when you are in a group, for the majority of quests the objectives are shared. One player completes them, it counts for any group member in the vicinity.
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
07.13.2011 , 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rephlexie
Does this just affect the Equipment on the player at the time of death or does it also hit everything in the inventory?
Lastly, can you comment on the decision to use Equipment decay over say, a major stat reduction that heals over time? Ie. "Resurrection sickness" etc. What was it about Equipment decay that made it seem more feasible?
Thanks GZ!
Only worn equipment is damaged.
We definitely discussed something along those lines before. We had something like this in Dragon Age: Origins (injury system). I think both are viable options that achieve the same goals (deferred penalty).
Personally I like the injury system quite a bit (after all I implemented it) due to the linear increase in penalty with each death, but it did had some issues (linear ramping up penalty means a lot more players miss it compared to the sudden hit of your equipment being unusable). Another benefit of equipment damage is that it creates a hard stop after death. It's more predictable, which is helpful for an MMO. Plus, as a final point, the equipment damage was already in and working for a long time, and as they say, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7369385#post7369385
hope all this helps
The more you use the self res the longer it takes to recharge. This has already been stated. Durability is the same death penalty as WoW, not sure what you wanted but this is a themepark which usually have pretty casual death penalties.
No more EQ1 toil. I do not enjoy spending my off hours at night trying a corpse run.
Call me whatever if you need to, I see games as vehicles for relaxed moments after work. At this moment in life, I enjoy a game in which I can walk away anytime and come back to resume, like chess. I find it ridiculous to play a game in which I need more uninterruptible attention, or I need to spend a few hours to recover from some stupid penalty imposed on me, and worst of all, I am paying money to be punished, to be strapped to my computer chair.
No thanks, life at work is stressful enough.
That is why I am playing solo RPG now, I can press esc anytime and talk to people, family, friends whenever they need me to, or whenever I want to.
Come to think of it, I understand why I dropped EQ1/DAoC for CoX/WoW, there are enough semi solo things to do, particularly in WoW, when I cannot afford the continuous time for a group venture. Maybe eventually Sw:ToR will fill in the void now, if they managed to make that game diversed and fun.
This was spoken on already. If you use that self resurrect then a timed delay is added for the next time. That is also only one option when you die, if the time delay is in effect, you'll be doing a more normal resurrect.