When I heard Reid say it was a corrective treatment, I couldn't help but laugh a little. It's completely baffling to me in a comical sort of way, and it almost reminds me of the LEGO games for consoles, in which you have a health bar but no life/restart system.
Ahh and now we get a strawman with a side of red herring.
Should you decide you've had enough of logical fallacies and want to discuss what I *actually* said in my post, I'll be happy to chat with you.
Leaving for work soon, though, so may not have time to say much 'til later.
Thanks.
Please enlighten me then. Why are you so upset about 'no death penalities' ? considering the guy you were supporting clearly wants his games to be more challenging. Why do you want players to get punished for being lazy? You don't mind game being easy?
My question would be why have anyone die, knocked out, or defeated then at all? The idea / mechanic itself is to represent the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, why even have the mechanism for failure?
yeah whats next players running around without the ability to lose health. god MMOs are getting pathetic. I understand people don't want to go back to the day were MMOs were a job and dying made you nearly want to delete your character and cancel your account .. but come on this is getting silly.
Guess we all have to play Guild Wars 2 instead. Oh wait. You don't die in Guild Wars 2 either. Let's go play some game that only 10 other people play so we can be hardcore. I hear they have electrical censors that zap your balls everytime you die.
The hardcore wannabees and poop-sockers would prefer that everyones gaming experience was miserable, then it would weed out the "casuals" and leave just them, the only ones "worthy" enough to play MMOs. F**k those guys.
This is a blanket statement, which means it does not apply to everyone who's in favor of a mild, medium or harsh death penalties. It's can't. There are always exceptions.
However, that's always the impression I get too. The hardcore people don't really want players to get better because of a death penalty, they want to weed out the 'weak' or 'unworthy'.
Anyway, this fits in with Bioware's vision of a game versus a virtual world. It's an amusement park, not a training ground.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There are some very silly responses. A death penalty does not make a game any easier. If you die fighting a boss, the boss is fully healed by the time you try again. The most this does is limit pointless, yes utterly and completely pointless downtime.
If you die in a single player game, you reload and try again. The fight you died to is made no easier because of a lack of death penalty. You still failed to accomplish whatever you were doing. You try to figure out what you did wrong and then do better next time. If you have to wait 10 minutes for a debuff or lose some coin, the fight is no easier.
This is smart. Pointless downtime does nothing, absolutely nothing to benefit the player.
Well i aint read through the hole thread, jsut the first page...
Well this game has dropped down another notch for me.. I mean i knew it was gonna be a theme park game no issues with that as sometimes they can be fun for a bit... but really no real death as you just get ressed by some invisible droid thats with you ?
I was not gonna get this game to start with anyway because of the silly price tag, but im probally not gonna pick this up at all unless i see it in a bargain bin for £5 or somthing..
Sorry i hate all this recent dumbing down of RPG elements on so called RPG games, its not just this game but its happennig too much now
Death penalty is a rarity in RPGs, and is definitely not a staple RPG element. In older console rpgs, when you died, you reload at your last save point. In pretty much ALL modern PC rpgs, you can save anywhere you want and reload anywhere you want.
You have to go all the way back to paper and pencil DnD to find a death penalty element, and in that case, it's perma-death. However, the game is also build around that element. There's very little in common between a sandbox MMO like TOR and pen and paper DnD.
Im sticking by my prediction this game will make the new WoW look like being hardcore. So far there is no intelligent AI, no death penalty but instant revive so people will use death as transport.
Really questioning how bad people are having to play in order to actually die in this game.
Something like xp lost and retriving your corpse would add some fear and danger so people would be interested in becoming better, otherwise you will end up with a very wowish community just screaming for nerfs instead of becoming better players. Which is a shame.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Im sticking by my prediction this game will make the new WoW look like being hardcore. So far there is no intelligent AI, no death penalty but instant revive so people will use death as transport.
Really questioning how bad people are having to play in order to actually die in this game.
Something like xp lost and retriving your corpse would add some fear and danger so people would be interested in becoming better, otherwise you will end up with a very wowish community just screaming for nerfs instead of becoming better players. Which is a shame.
OK then, once again. SWTOR has a full perma death and/or item loss penalty in game, just like most MMOs. Also has a repeat death time delay and durability loss. Just hit the delete key for your character if you die. Or, if perma death is not quite the challenge you like, then delete 1,2,3 or more items from your character, 'homestone', and keep going. It is all there. Why is anyone complaining that it isn't?
Just think about it. It isn't that you want to he-man your challenge for yourself, you want the game to force everyone to play how you like it. Mabey the thrill of killing someone in PVP knowing you have wiped out many hours of effort and time. Or jump a new person and giggle at their frustration. First we hear about how you want the game to challenge and put an 'edge' to your play, but only if everybody is forced to do the same. If you want a challenge of a serious death 'penalty' with play 'edge', then the tools are tight there in front of you. As for making the rest of us play your way, well, you are out of luck. You will have to settle for whining and trolling in the forums.
If you feel that the majority of players are dumb and 'wowish?' then you probably won't play SWTOR. We will not miss you. For myself, DDE pre-order and looking forward to the game. And I am sorry you think it is a shame we all do not want to become 'better' players. Unfortunately for you we have different views on what is 'better'.
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin There is NO PENALTY to that what-so-ever. Of course your armor will take a durability hit that you can pay-off with a pittance of in-game money. Not only is NOT considered or talked about being a "punishment", but it seems Stephen Reid (@rockjaw) explains, If he is the one actually explaniing, the actually political correct term is CORRECTIVE TREATMENT.
In RIFT, you get souls.
Each time you die, they take your souls down 10% until you get to 0%.
I know no one that even cares about dying in RIFT until they actually hit 0. There is no armor repair penalty, you just pay to fix your souls.. which you pay with a pittance of in-game money.
What you describe isn't anything more than any typical MMO.
Yeesh I am glad I play Eve Online. If you mess up you can loose hours of time or billions in isk (in game currency.)
SW:TOR will seem like a walk in the park for me.
Not exactly true
You lose armor durability when you fail and it takes longer and longer to get back into the fight if you die repeatedly in succession though this timer does reset if you mange to stay alive long enough.
Not quite Eve online DP, but i hate when you lose everything when you die. Different strokes for different folks.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Im sticking by my prediction this game will make the new WoW look like being hardcore. So far there is no intelligent AI, no death penalty but instant revive so people will use death as transport.
Really questioning how bad people are having to play in order to actually die in this game.
Something like xp lost and retriving your corpse would add some fear and danger so people would be interested in becoming better, otherwise you will end up with a very wowish community just screaming for nerfs instead of becoming better players. Which is a shame.
That is bound to happen, seeing in what direction MMOs are changing. I hope SWTOR won't be the first obvious easier-than-wow MMO.
My question would be why have anyone die, knocked out, or defeated then at all? The idea / mechanic itself is to represent the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, why even have the mechanism for failure?
Because a lot of people find it "unfair" to be "punished" for being shitty, reckless players.
'course... you can never reward them enough for being absolutely mediocre and doing the most absolutely mundane things. If you could get half a level of xp for simply typing an emote correctly, there'd be people saying "Finally!!! A dev that understands how we deserve to be rewarded for typing /laugh successfully!".
Tell them there's a 3 minute "resurrection sickness" associated, and they're all "That isn't fun!!!! Why am I being punished for failing!!!" I've actually seen people say, and I quote, "This is 2011. Dying should be fun. Why dont' devevelopers understand this?" And they weren't joking. I don't think I've ever /facepalmed so hard.
I had near zero interest in this game before.... but still a "glimmer" of interest... 'cause you never know.
After this little nugget... It has officially hit zero.
Thank you for your elitist attitude. It appears that one need to be very proud cos he punch a few keyboard strokes better. Care for a silver medal from the white house?
Games are not mandatory services others' life depend on. A successful raid of boss X is not going to serve anyone but you and your raid members. Failure there does nobody harm. Snobish talks aside, there is nothing difference between a "good" player and a "weaker".
On the other hand, a nice player, with compassion and sympathy, or just being simply kind, makes for a much better community. While there are so much discussion about a weakening atitude, I just wonder, does elitism in the form of disrespect to others, contributes?
As a hardcore player and a 1337 |-|4><><012, I would prefer if this game had perma-death. But why stop there? I see a real opportunity for Bioware to please the hardcore audience. When your character dies, I think the following should occur:
Permanent deletion of your game account and your friends' game accounts.
If you bought a physical copy of the game, it now catches fire and/or blows up.
$X is withdrawn from the credit card tied to your account in order to pay for the hired assassin that is now dispatched to your location, broadcasted to Bioware via your computer.
The game rewrites the harddrive, causing the computer to crash and forcing you to reinstall your operating system, but not before uploading all your pornographical pictures to your Facebook account's public gallery and tagging your family members in them.
Sends a letter of resignation to your current employer (if you have one).
Bioware, are you listening? This would make the game such a fun and exciting experience, because the only reason people find fun in games is because of harsh punishment upon failure.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
My question would be why have anyone die, knocked out, or defeated then at all? The idea / mechanic itself is to represent the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, why even have the mechanism for failure?
Because a lot of people find it "unfair" to be "punished" for being shitty, reckless players.
'course... you can never reward them enough for being absolutely mediocre and doing the most absolutely basic things... If you could get half a level of xp for simply typing an emote correctly, there'd be people saying "Finally!!! A dev that understands how we deserve to be rewarded for typing /laugh successfully!".
I had near zero interest in this game before.... but still a "glimmer" of interest... 'cause you never know.
After this little nugget... It has officially hit zero.
..or maybe people don't play games to be punished but have fun? i don't know since when players started equating challenge to being punished. Challenge is in the activity itself.
Challenge is in the process of trying out a task, penalty is what you get after you failed.
Playing chess against a master is a challenge, there is no failure penalty, just restart or taking back a move
Its breaking news to me, nice to here you follow games more closely than others. Is the point of your post to let eveyone know your more informed than the next guy and that once you hear about something it should be forever struck from the records and never spoke of again? Or are you just looking for a self induced ego boost. Geezz lighten up.
I'm just wondering how often are you people planning on dying?
Cause to be honest, I know I'm smart enough to not get killed every 30 seconds while soloing.
It depends on the game mechanics, it depends on how well you know about it.
It depends on what you are doing relative to your gear, level and such. And being smart is not really relevant here. Trying to take on something hard might entail a lot of deaths but not meaning stupid.
Try walk from one starter city to another as a level 1, try to make it to a high level mining zone as a low level crafter only alt.
I'm just wondering how often are you people planning on dying?
Cause to be honest, I know I'm smart enough to not get killed every 30 seconds while soloing.
They need a reason to not fail, otherwise they'll fail over and over again? What's more embarrasing than being beat by artificial intelligence?
Beating a boss is only beating a script, it is not beating AI. The AI is scripted in such a way as to pronounce you victor after jumping thru a few hoops. Nothing more.
Losing to an AI is not embarassing. Trying beating an AI to most mundane repetitive task will show you just that.
Comments
And look at how poorly those games do... oh wait.
Please enlighten me then. Why are you so upset about 'no death penalities' ? considering the guy you were supporting clearly wants his games to be more challenging. Why do you want players to get punished for being lazy? You don't mind game being easy?
This is a blanket statement, which means it does not apply to everyone who's in favor of a mild, medium or harsh death penalties. It's can't. There are always exceptions.
However, that's always the impression I get too. The hardcore people don't really want players to get better because of a death penalty, they want to weed out the 'weak' or 'unworthy'.
Anyway, this fits in with Bioware's vision of a game versus a virtual world. It's an amusement park, not a training ground.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm just wondering how often are you people planning on dying?
Cause to be honest, I know I'm smart enough to not get killed every 30 seconds while soloing.
Things you forgot to mention:
1) There is a durability penalty
2) The timer increases when you die
3) It doesn't work in PvP
4) They did it because the game apparently gets hard and people had to run back like 30 minutes because the worlds are so big.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
There are some very silly responses. A death penalty does not make a game any easier. If you die fighting a boss, the boss is fully healed by the time you try again. The most this does is limit pointless, yes utterly and completely pointless downtime.
If you die in a single player game, you reload and try again. The fight you died to is made no easier because of a lack of death penalty. You still failed to accomplish whatever you were doing. You try to figure out what you did wrong and then do better next time. If you have to wait 10 minutes for a debuff or lose some coin, the fight is no easier.
This is smart. Pointless downtime does nothing, absolutely nothing to benefit the player.
Death penalty is a rarity in RPGs, and is definitely not a staple RPG element. In older console rpgs, when you died, you reload at your last save point. In pretty much ALL modern PC rpgs, you can save anywhere you want and reload anywhere you want.
You have to go all the way back to paper and pencil DnD to find a death penalty element, and in that case, it's perma-death. However, the game is also build around that element. There's very little in common between a sandbox MMO like TOR and pen and paper DnD.
I've gone through and cleaned the thread up a bit. Let's remember to follow the RoC when posting guys. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Thanks!
Good to have some active mods.
If you plan on playing the game, and are principally opposed to it, you don't have to use it as others have said.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Metallica8589/videos?view=0
They need a reason to not fail, otherwise they'll fail over and over again? What's more embarrasing than being beat by artificial intelligence?
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Im sticking by my prediction this game will make the new WoW look like being hardcore. So far there is no intelligent AI, no death penalty but instant revive so people will use death as transport.
Really questioning how bad people are having to play in order to actually die in this game.
Something like xp lost and retriving your corpse would add some fear and danger so people would be interested in becoming better, otherwise you will end up with a very wowish community just screaming for nerfs instead of becoming better players. Which is a shame.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
OK then, once again. SWTOR has a full perma death and/or item loss penalty in game, just like most MMOs. Also has a repeat death time delay and durability loss. Just hit the delete key for your character if you die. Or, if perma death is not quite the challenge you like, then delete 1,2,3 or more items from your character, 'homestone', and keep going. It is all there. Why is anyone complaining that it isn't?
Just think about it. It isn't that you want to he-man your challenge for yourself, you want the game to force everyone to play how you like it. Mabey the thrill of killing someone in PVP knowing you have wiped out many hours of effort and time. Or jump a new person and giggle at their frustration. First we hear about how you want the game to challenge and put an 'edge' to your play, but only if everybody is forced to do the same. If you want a challenge of a serious death 'penalty' with play 'edge', then the tools are tight there in front of you. As for making the rest of us play your way, well, you are out of luck. You will have to settle for whining and trolling in the forums.
If you feel that the majority of players are dumb and 'wowish?' then you probably won't play SWTOR. We will not miss you. For myself, DDE pre-order and looking forward to the game. And I am sorry you think it is a shame we all do not want to become 'better' players. Unfortunately for you we have different views on what is 'better'.
Pro harsh death penalty people are funny.
Each time you die, they take your souls down 10% until you get to 0%.
I know no one that even cares about dying in RIFT until they actually hit 0. There is no armor repair penalty, you just pay to fix your souls.. which you pay with a pittance of in-game money.
What you describe isn't anything more than any typical MMO.
Next complaint.... /snoring
"TO MICHAEL!"
No penalty when you fail ?
Yeesh I am glad I play Eve Online. If you mess up you can loose hours of time or billions in isk (in game currency.)
SW:TOR will seem like a walk in the park for me.
Not exactly true
You lose armor durability when you fail and it takes longer and longer to get back into the fight if you die repeatedly in succession though this timer does reset if you mange to stay alive long enough.
Not quite Eve online DP, but i hate when you lose everything when you die. Different strokes for different folks.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
That is bound to happen, seeing in what direction MMOs are changing. I hope SWTOR won't be the first obvious easier-than-wow MMO.
Original WOW was pretty hard btw.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Thank you for your elitist attitude. It appears that one need to be very proud cos he punch a few keyboard strokes better. Care for a silver medal from the white house?
Games are not mandatory services others' life depend on. A successful raid of boss X is not going to serve anyone but you and your raid members. Failure there does nobody harm. Snobish talks aside, there is nothing difference between a "good" player and a "weaker".
On the other hand, a nice player, with compassion and sympathy, or just being simply kind, makes for a much better community. While there are so much discussion about a weakening atitude, I just wonder, does elitism in the form of disrespect to others, contributes?
As a hardcore player and a 1337 |-|4><><012, I would prefer if this game had perma-death. But why stop there? I see a real opportunity for Bioware to please the hardcore audience. When your character dies, I think the following should occur:
Permanent deletion of your game account and your friends' game accounts.
If you bought a physical copy of the game, it now catches fire and/or blows up.
$X is withdrawn from the credit card tied to your account in order to pay for the hired assassin that is now dispatched to your location, broadcasted to Bioware via your computer.
The game rewrites the harddrive, causing the computer to crash and forcing you to reinstall your operating system, but not before uploading all your pornographical pictures to your Facebook account's public gallery and tagging your family members in them.
Sends a letter of resignation to your current employer (if you have one).
Bioware, are you listening? This would make the game such a fun and exciting experience, because the only reason people find fun in games is because of harsh punishment upon failure.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
Challenge is in the process of trying out a task, penalty is what you get after you failed.
Playing chess against a master is a challenge, there is no failure penalty, just restart or taking back a move
Its breaking news to me, nice to here you follow games more closely than others. Is the point of your post to let eveyone know your more informed than the next guy and that once you hear about something it should be forever struck from the records and never spoke of again? Or are you just looking for a self induced ego boost. Geezz lighten up.
It depends on the game mechanics, it depends on how well you know about it.
It depends on what you are doing relative to your gear, level and such. And being smart is not really relevant here. Trying to take on something hard might entail a lot of deaths but not meaning stupid.
Try walk from one starter city to another as a level 1, try to make it to a high level mining zone as a low level crafter only alt.
Beating a boss is only beating a script, it is not beating AI. The AI is scripted in such a way as to pronounce you victor after jumping thru a few hoops. Nothing more.
Losing to an AI is not embarassing. Trying beating an AI to most mundane repetitive task will show you just that.
No death penalty?
Bioware is living in a dream world if they think this is a good idea, wtf are they thinking!?
they must really underestimate our inteligence to think we actually want a game with no
death penalty, it makes the game totally pointless imo
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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