You have to realize that bioware only has a limited pool of developers to pull from. The gaming industry is quite incestuous and it also burns through people with long hours and poor pay unless you hit it big.
Bioware hired alot of people from other MMO games to make Swtor and they are basically forced into a position where they have to rely on their judgement.
This MMO is made by bioware Austin. Bioware itself is originally canadian. The real bioware employees are probably only involved in a supervisory way .
In other words don't be surprised when a game becomes like some other games when the people who made those games are also making this one. In general when hard questions get asked people will fall back to the answers they used before not that many people are actually equipped to change things up that much.
This is true but its one side of a coin. There is a pool of developers that have made very different games. BioWare had someone that worked on "different games"... Gordon Walton. When he left BioWare it was probably a sign... or at least when he suddenly vanished from his previous job it seemed to be a disagreement with the "powers that be". Especially when they didn't even announce he had left until after it was known he was at BioWare along with Rich Vogel... among others.
Please admit you have no idea why he changed companies.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I wish MMORPG.com would just breakdown and make a "Angry haters of SWTOR, because its not sandbox/not SWG2/not GW 2/I'm Eeore from Winnie the Pooh" forum (it could even be a sub forum of the SWG vet refuge). That way all this fun could be held in one area.
That way when you get tired of whatever you are playing, people can log on and participate in "Forum Wars:The Old Republic Shall Fall".
TOR is around to make money not be fun, time to move on and hope someone elase can make a fun game..... I am looking at you Arena net.
NCSoft has the very same goal with GW2, making money. The difference? SWTOR will likely be better at it.
The only reason they will make more is because TOR has monthly fees and most people are mindless idiots that buy up any crap that says Star Wars on it
They'll make more because it will be worth more. A porche costs more than a volkswagon, right? Don't get me wrong, I'll still be playing GW2. It'll be like my second car that was really cheap that I just use to get to the store and back when my wife has the nice car
TOR is around to make money not be fun, time to move on and hope someone elase can make a fun game..... I am looking at you Arena net.
So ArenaNET knows how to make fun? That's ingenius! Maybe they can learn to make excitement and happy too! Oh joy!
Seriously. A fun game is very subjective. You cannot make fun for people, you can only hope they find it. Also if what the OP listed was both popular and profitable, no one here would be hanging around these forums, we'd be playing what he's playing. Alas, he's only marching ahead with a imaginary crowd following him wherever he goes...
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I wasn't going to comment until I came across this post.
- Bioware's rpg's are always lineair in storyline, compared to for example Bethesda's rpg's. Still Bioware tells a more immersive story imo then Bethesda.
I don't know what planet you are from, but to say any game has a more immersive storyline then Morrowind is just plain and utter stupidity... Seriously, go try to read all of the books in the game. Read all the lore it entails, plus combine that with the main storyline... The lore in that game is something out of this world and almost makes you feel like you are apart of it.
Tell me one Bioware game that even comes close to the indepth creativity that they put in Morrowind's lore...
I think the bigger issue here is maybe people expected far more from Bioware. I have to admit Swtor doesnt look BAD. It just doesnt look mind blowing. So while you're sitting there thinking, " Okay. Mind blowing? Whatever", thats exactly the problem because up until now this company did just that. Made amazing games just about everyone got extremely excited about long before release and even more so after.
Now maybe Swtor will be that. It just doesnt seem that way so far. At least to many including myself. GW2 does look amazingly good, which is a huge surprise to myself, because I actually sort of imagined thats the game Bioware would make. Not the other way around. But this is just all speculation on all sides.
Swtor could be the end all be all of existence. GW2 might just end up being a bad joke. Now I have serious doubts as to that but anything could happen I guess. But like I said, I think Swtor is getting a lot of flak because when you've made just absolutely epic games that have changed the industry in their own way each time one is released, for years and years, you just come to expect it.
Initially the game was supposed to stay away from the holy Tank-Healer-DPSer trinity.
Then Combat was supposed to feel epic... to end with Wow like Boss kiting.
LS and force powers are now being used in Hutt Ball games.
All classes in solo mode are pet classes.
Space combat is a point and click minigame.
Heroic crafting ends as having NPCs do it for us.
On paper SWTOR has less features than games years older.
Not even KOTOR core features at launch: Pazaak and Swoop racing.
Story lines doesn't look that epic and it seems doesn't really have an impact on the outcome, but maybe a few times.
Replayability seems to be there only if you switch factions.
Some gear looks like coming directly from Wow: mage/warlock robes, epic shoulderpads.
Character heroic proportions look silly.
Game looks on rails or at least very directed
And that is with a budget even bigger than Tabula Rasa one.
So... what went wrong?
Apart from the ones marked... the rest is just opinions.. So i guess... You (the OP) had to high expectations
Honesgtly i am very dissapointed by this post.... I expected some well versed brain food. Instead i got.... Bhwaaaaaa.... They did not do my dream game so now it is rubbish.
Glad to see there's someone that remembers the facts there.
Please let me insist on a few things: they kept saying how crafting would be heroic. It isn't.
They also over hyped the space feature. It's balls.
Playing with/out a companion was supposed to be totally optional. It's not in single player and very restricted in multiplayer.
Did I mention the game was supposed to be innovative? Apart the totally VO thing it doesn't look like it.
I hope Swtor will be fun... I'm not going to play, but it would suck if 3 million people bought it and it went down the tubes. That is why I hate preordering... your left to chsnce and to tell the truth you have no idea whether it will be good or not, you simply base your ideas on what has been released by the company a threads. You know, I think i wil make a thread on this...
Sorry the above paragraph didn't have anything to do with this thread.
I wasn't going to comment until I came across this post.
- Bioware's rpg's are always lineair in storyline, compared to for example Bethesda's rpg's. Still Bioware tells a more immersive story imo then Bethesda.
I don't know what planet you are from, but to say any game has a more immersive storyline then Morrowind is just plain and utter stupidity... Seriously, go try to read all of the books in the game. Read all the lore it entails, plus combine that with the main storyline... The lore in that game is something out of this world and almost makes you feel like you are apart of it.
Tell me one Bioware game that even comes close to the indepth creativity that they put in Morrowind's lore...
I would say this one, as it has the gigantic expanded Star Wars universe to draw from.
The quote makes it fairly clear that this cat believes that Bethesda's rpgs are not so lineair as BioWare's , but he finds BioWare's stories more immersive (the whole IMO is a dead giveaway that he means in his opinion, not stating a fact).
You post states what he states, except you disagree with BioWare being more immersive (immersive doesn't mean bigger/richer, or better, it just means he finds the story draws him in). Its a bit silly to come aboard him for his like of BioWare stories over Bethesda.
I wasn't going to comment until I came across this post.
- Bioware's rpg's are always lineair in storyline, compared to for example Bethesda's rpg's. Still Bioware tells a more immersive story imo then Bethesda.
I don't know what planet you are from, but to say any game has a more immersive storyline then Morrowind is just plain and utter stupidity... Seriously, go try to read all of the books in the game. Read all the lore it entails, plus combine that with the main storyline... The lore in that game is something out of this world and almost makes you feel like you are apart of it.
Tell me one Bioware game that even comes close to the indepth creativity that they put in Morrowind's lore...
Next time please quote the post instead of just copy and paste
First, the reason that I dont care about reading books in a game, is because I read books outside of games where I find it a lot more relaxing. I want to be involved into a story when in a game, not visit the library in a game to read about the game's story.
Second, I never said that Bioware makes more indepth stories or lore. I was talking about storytelling, not the story itself. Calling me stupid while not even realising the difference between the words 'story' and 'storytelling' is just laughable. I also made it clear that its just my opinion. I PREFER Bioware's way of storytelling.
This doesnt mean that I dont like Bethesda's games (I loved Morrowind), it just means I like them for different reasons.
Initially the game was supposed to stay away from the holy Tank-Healer-DPSer trinity.
Then Combat was supposed to feel epic... to end with Wow like Boss kiting.
LS and force powers are now being used in Hutt Ball games.
All classes in solo mode are pet classes.
Space combat is a point and click minigame.
Heroic crafting ends as having NPCs do it for us.
On paper SWTOR has less features than games years older.
Not even KOTOR core features at launch: Pazaak and Swoop racing.
Story lines doesn't look that epic and it seems doesn't really have an impact on the outcome, but maybe a few times.
Replayability seems to be there only if you switch factions.
Some gear looks like coming directly from Wow: mage/warlock robes, epic shoulderpads.
Character heroic proportions look silly.
Game looks on rails or at least very directed
And that is with a budget even bigger than Tabula Rasa one.
So... what went wrong?
Apart from the ones marked... the rest is just opinions.. So i guess... You (the OP) had to high expectations
Honesgtly i am very dissapointed by this post.... I expected some well versed brain food. Instead i got.... Bhwaaaaaa.... They did not do my dream game so now it is rubbish.
Glad to see there's someone that remembers the facts there.
Please let me insist on a few things: they kept saying how crafting would be heroic. It isn't.
They also over hyped the space feature. It's balls.
Playing with/out a companion was supposed to be totally optional. It's not in single player and very restricted in multiplayer.
Did I mention the game was supposed to be innovative? Apart the totally VO thing it doesn't look like it.
You can insist all you want, but you'd be wrong. Yeah they used, and still use, the word heroic a bunch. It's a marketing ploy, get over it. However they never used it in conjunction with their crafting. And don't sit there and tell me how long you've been following the game, I've been doing it at least as long along with thousands of other people all who are quite capable of coming up with their own opinions.
As for the space, initially they never even intended to have any sort of space combat but added it due to all the outcry. They would have been better off sticking to not having it at all.
Companions had always been meant as an important part of the game, they have said all along you could play without them, but that you would be doing so at a severe disadvantage.
The only innovation they have ever really touted is story. It has been their angle from the very start.
The previous poster is right, those things marked in yellow are the only things in your list that has any validity, the rest is just your own perceptions which are highly subjective at best.
Please let me insist on a few things: they kept saying how crafting would be heroic. It isn't.
They also over hyped the space feature. It's balls.
Playing with/out a companion was supposed to be totally optional. It's not in single player and very restricted in multiplayer.
Did I mention the game was supposed to be innovative? Apart the totally VO thing it doesn't look like it.
I think you were the one that mentioned recently that things change in the course of development, progressive insights, feedback from testers and so on. I'm not going to ask you for the tedious task to gain quotes to prove those points, since like you already also said yourself that things can change in the development process, however from reading your points it's evident that most are just subjective. For example, I disagree already about your perceptions, they're clearly not my opinion or as I suspect from a lot of other people.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Initially the game was supposed to stay away from the holy Tank-Healer-DPSer trinity.
Then Combat was supposed to feel epic... to end with Wow like Boss kiting.
LS and force powers are now being used in Hutt Ball games.
All classes in solo mode are pet classes.
Space combat is a point and click minigame.
Heroic crafting ends as having NPCs do it for us.
On paper SWTOR has less features than games years older.
Not even KOTOR core features at launch: Pazaak and Swoop racing.
Story lines doesn't look that epic and it seems doesn't really have an impact on the outcome, but maybe a few times.
Replayability seems to be there only if you switch factions.
Some gear looks like coming directly from Wow: mage/warlock robes, epic shoulderpads.
Character heroic proportions look silly.
Game looks on rails or at least very directed
And that is with a budget even bigger than Tabula Rasa one.
So... what went wrong?
Apart from the ones marked... the rest is just opinions.. So i guess... You (the OP) had to high expectations
Honesgtly i am very dissapointed by this post.... I expected some well versed brain food. Instead i got.... Bhwaaaaaa.... They did not do my dream game so now it is rubbish.
Glad to see there's someone that remembers the facts there.
Please let me insist on a few things: they kept saying how crafting would be heroic. It isn't.
They also over hyped the space feature. It's balls.
Playing with/out a companion was supposed to be totally optional. It's not in single player and very restricted in multiplayer.
Did I mention the game was supposed to be innovative? Apart the totally VO thing it doesn't look like it.
You can insist all you want, but you'd be wrong. Yeah they used, and still use, the word heroic a bunch. It's a marketing ploy, get over it. However they never used it in conjunction with their crafting. And don't sit there and tell me how long you've been following the game, I've been doing it at least as long along with thousands of other people all who are quite capable of coming up with their own opinions.
As for the space, initially they never even intended to have any sort of space combat but added it due to all the outcry. They would have been better off sticking to not having it at all.
Companions had always been meant as an important part of the game, they have said all along you could play without them, but that you would be doing so at a severe disadvantage.
The only innovation they have ever really touted is story. It has been their angle from the very start.
The previous poster is right, those things marked in yellow are the only things in your list that has any validity, the rest is just your own perceptions which are highly subjective at best.
Heroic and crafting directly from James Ohlen: Clicky
now can we agree this isn't from my own perceptions... alone?
Same thing goes for the Space sim, check the first E3 announcement or would I say lack of.. and what happened on the forums afterwards. And for companions and so on.
Well I admit the heroic proportions and cheesy wowish look has been set in stone mostly since the game reveal. They just toned down the LS hilt size due to the upraor on the forums.
Shrug. It's like I said earlier, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Some gameplay or feature can be epic but if someone doesn't feel it like that, then to him or her it just isn't epic, the same goes for a very subjective term as 'heroic'.
To take crafting for example, personally I think it looks like quite an improvement upon what I've experienced in crafting in most MMO's, and it's certainly a differentiation. Furthermore, how they use it is perfectly in line with the context, with Companions helping out and such.
'heroic'? Well, it sure isn't playing farmer Owen, it does give off a different feel than that, or than crafting in WoW or Aion for that matter. As far as we can see and speculation for now can take us of course.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
nvm. error
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
TOR is around to make money not be fun, time to move on and hope someone elase can make a fun game..... I am looking at you Arena net.
Please admit you have no idea why he changed companies.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
What went wrong? They blew all their budget on the voice acting and had to cobble the rest of the game together with spit and bailing wire.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
NCSoft has the very same goal with GW2, making money. The difference? SWTOR will likely be better at it.they don't need to deliver on all these when hype is doing all their job for them.
my guess they are putting all their chips into stability and performance, because lore and feature-wise, this game will be light years away from SWG.
The only reason they will make more is because TOR has monthly fees and most people are mindless idiots that buy up any crap that says Star Wars on it
I wish MMORPG.com would just breakdown and make a "Angry haters of SWTOR, because its not sandbox/not SWG2/not GW 2/I'm Eeore from Winnie the Pooh" forum (it could even be a sub forum of the SWG vet refuge). That way all this fun could be held in one area.
That way when you get tired of whatever you are playing, people can log on and participate in "Forum Wars:The Old Republic Shall Fall".
NCSoft has the very same goal with GW2, making money. The difference? SWTOR will likely be better at it.The only reason they will make more is because TOR has monthly fees and most people are mindless idiots that buy up any crap that says Star Wars on it
They'll make more because it will be worth more. A porche costs more than a volkswagon, right? Don't get me wrong, I'll still be playing GW2. It'll be like my second car that was really cheap that I just use to get to the store and back when my wife has the nice carSo ArenaNET knows how to make fun? That's ingenius! Maybe they can learn to make excitement and happy too! Oh joy!
Seriously. A fun game is very subjective. You cannot make fun for people, you can only hope they find it. Also if what the OP listed was both popular and profitable, no one here would be hanging around these forums, we'd be playing what he's playing. Alas, he's only marching ahead with a imaginary crowd following him wherever he goes...
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
As a beta tester all I can say is that I'm finally excited for an MMO again.
As someone who has not yet made it in to beta, all i can say is that I hate you.I wasn't going to comment until I came across this post.
- Bioware's rpg's are always lineair in storyline, compared to for example Bethesda's rpg's. Still Bioware tells a more immersive story imo then Bethesda.
I don't know what planet you are from, but to say any game has a more immersive storyline then Morrowind is just plain and utter stupidity... Seriously, go try to read all of the books in the game. Read all the lore it entails, plus combine that with the main storyline... The lore in that game is something out of this world and almost makes you feel like you are apart of it.
Tell me one Bioware game that even comes close to the indepth creativity that they put in Morrowind's lore...
I think the bigger issue here is maybe people expected far more from Bioware. I have to admit Swtor doesnt look BAD. It just doesnt look mind blowing. So while you're sitting there thinking, " Okay. Mind blowing? Whatever", thats exactly the problem because up until now this company did just that. Made amazing games just about everyone got extremely excited about long before release and even more so after.
Now maybe Swtor will be that. It just doesnt seem that way so far. At least to many including myself. GW2 does look amazingly good, which is a huge surprise to myself, because I actually sort of imagined thats the game Bioware would make. Not the other way around. But this is just all speculation on all sides.
Swtor could be the end all be all of existence. GW2 might just end up being a bad joke. Now I have serious doubts as to that but anything could happen I guess. But like I said, I think Swtor is getting a lot of flak because when you've made just absolutely epic games that have changed the industry in their own way each time one is released, for years and years, you just come to expect it.
Glad to see there's someone that remembers the facts there.
Please let me insist on a few things: they kept saying how crafting would be heroic. It isn't.
They also over hyped the space feature. It's balls.
Playing with/out a companion was supposed to be totally optional. It's not in single player and very restricted in multiplayer.
Did I mention the game was supposed to be innovative? Apart the totally VO thing it doesn't look like it.
I hope Swtor will be fun... I'm not going to play, but it would suck if 3 million people bought it and it went down the tubes. That is why I hate preordering... your left to chsnce and to tell the truth you have no idea whether it will be good or not, you simply base your ideas on what has been released by the company a threads. You know, I think i wil make a thread on this...
Sorry the above paragraph didn't have anything to do with this thread.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
I would say this one, as it has the gigantic expanded Star Wars universe to draw from.
The quote makes it fairly clear that this cat believes that Bethesda's rpgs are not so lineair as BioWare's , but he finds BioWare's stories more immersive (the whole IMO is a dead giveaway that he means in his opinion, not stating a fact).
You post states what he states, except you disagree with BioWare being more immersive (immersive doesn't mean bigger/richer, or better, it just means he finds the story draws him in). Its a bit silly to come aboard him for his like of BioWare stories over Bethesda.
Next time please quote the post instead of just copy and paste
First, the reason that I dont care about reading books in a game, is because I read books outside of games where I find it a lot more relaxing. I want to be involved into a story when in a game, not visit the library in a game to read about the game's story.
Second, I never said that Bioware makes more indepth stories or lore. I was talking about storytelling, not the story itself. Calling me stupid while not even realising the difference between the words 'story' and 'storytelling' is just laughable. I also made it clear that its just my opinion. I PREFER Bioware's way of storytelling.
This doesnt mean that I dont like Bethesda's games (I loved Morrowind), it just means I like them for different reasons.
some good points.but we the gamers have shown we love clones.
if a clone like rift can do well imagine a clone with SW label!
You can insist all you want, but you'd be wrong. Yeah they used, and still use, the word heroic a bunch. It's a marketing ploy, get over it. However they never used it in conjunction with their crafting. And don't sit there and tell me how long you've been following the game, I've been doing it at least as long along with thousands of other people all who are quite capable of coming up with their own opinions.
As for the space, initially they never even intended to have any sort of space combat but added it due to all the outcry. They would have been better off sticking to not having it at all.
Companions had always been meant as an important part of the game, they have said all along you could play without them, but that you would be doing so at a severe disadvantage.
The only innovation they have ever really touted is story. It has been their angle from the very start.
The previous poster is right, those things marked in yellow are the only things in your list that has any validity, the rest is just your own perceptions which are highly subjective at best.
I think you were the one that mentioned recently that things change in the course of development, progressive insights, feedback from testers and so on. I'm not going to ask you for the tedious task to gain quotes to prove those points, since like you already also said yourself that things can change in the development process, however from reading your points it's evident that most are just subjective. For example, I disagree already about your perceptions, they're clearly not my opinion or as I suspect from a lot of other people.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Heroic and crafting directly from James Ohlen: Clicky
now can we agree this isn't from my own perceptions... alone?
Same thing goes for the Space sim, check the first E3 announcement or would I say lack of.. and what happened on the forums afterwards. And for companions and so on.
Well I admit the heroic proportions and cheesy wowish look has been set in stone mostly since the game reveal. They just toned down the LS hilt size due to the upraor on the forums.
Shrug. It's like I said earlier, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Some gameplay or feature can be epic but if someone doesn't feel it like that, then to him or her it just isn't epic, the same goes for a very subjective term as 'heroic'.
To take crafting for example, personally I think it looks like quite an improvement upon what I've experienced in crafting in most MMO's, and it's certainly a differentiation. Furthermore, how they use it is perfectly in line with the context, with Companions helping out and such.
'heroic'? Well, it sure isn't playing farmer Owen, it does give off a different feel than that, or than crafting in WoW or Aion for that matter. As far as we can see and speculation for now can take us of course.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I knew ToR was gonna be garbage when they revealed the space pvp minigame.
fixed