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I dont understand how people think a B2P MMO like GW2 isnt in direct competition with P2P MMO like S
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I dont understand how people think a B2P MMO like GW2 isnt in direct competition with P2P MMO like WoW, Rift, War, etc.
yes the payment models may be different, but what developers want, is population, not just Sub numbers as many people may assume. The higher the population, the less players feel alone, or in a empty world.
Also keep in mind, even though consumers can get GW2 and another MMO like SWTOR, that doesnt mean players can play both at the same time. which again, means the developers are fighting over player's time and interest.
For instances; had Allod been better and more quality, less P2W/IM it may been a great competitor with games like WoW and Rift. Why play Rift and WoW when you can play a quality free MMO that does the same thing pretty much?
again,,, Direct Competition.
If you disagree, prove me wrong.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
It's hard to disprove an opinion.
I don't think anyone truely thinks a B2P game is not competition for P2P games. I do think most people understand that there is almost no financial burden that comes with playing both a P2P and a B2P at the same time game though. That would deffinately make two games like GW2 and SWTOR something which could reasonably be played by the same person at the same time. That is what I plan to do, because of that GW2 and SWTOR will not be competitors as far as my wallet is concerned which is the most important factor for both games.
Competition isn't just a matter of time, but also a matter of money.
I can buy a B2P and keep my subscription for my P2P. In doing so I keep showing up as a subscriber. If I have two P2P games and am short on cash, I have to make a choice of the two.
As such, my GW (or GW2) gameplay is less likely to cause me to drop my subscription.
At the same time, Guild Wars 2 is "challenging" the notion that subscription based games rely on those $15/mo to support bandwith cost and keep the game running. (Of course, they do, but significantly less so than the developers would want you to believe)
Guild Wars 2 remains unheard of by a lot of the mainstream MMO players... you know, the one's who've never been to fansites or forums, and can only name 2 MMO's: WoW and Runescape. If these same people ultimately surmise that Guild Wars 2, after a large and successful release that stretches to every corner of gaming media, may be a higher quality game than the one's they're continuing to shell out $15 monthly for, then I'm sure that could possibly be a big deal.
By the way: the above is a hypothetical, just so we're on the same page...
EDIT:
I forgot what point I meant to make at some point while I was typing that, but I don't think I ever actually responded to the OP.
/cough
*walks away*
totaly true, i asked my guild the other night about GW2 and Swtor and they were like humm what? what is that, no interested,they dont even look what iam talking about .just not interested, they are only on wow. wow. wow,wow
they never go on website or do other thing on ther pc,. when they get on the pc. they open wow. i almost sure half of them got only 1 icon on ther desktop and its wow,..lol
u would be suprise how people are not informed about other game coming out,
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
If you need one counterexample to disprove a theory, I stand as counterexample.
I have 3 sub running, and I play solo RPGs. Concurrently. Meaning yes I only spend a few hours a month per game manybe 10/20 depending on work and other leisure.
Why play A or B or C is free/better/whatever. Why not? Why everyone need to think like any "expert"?
I do not need to prove you are wrong, I only need to remind you that your view is not mine.
Which is not a crime or a serious issue.
I do not know much about other brands of almost all kitchenware or utensils. I randomly bought whatever that appears to serve the purpose and they usually do.
Likewise, if your friends are happy with WoW, there is not pressing need to know about other options. I sure envy them b/c they are happy and content.
All games are in competition with one another to some degree. Players only have a finite amount of money they're willing to spend, so it's really going to depend on what each game is offering in terms of value, how much the player feels they need to spend money, and how much they want to support the company.
The thing about subscription games is quality. Sure, there's a ton of F2P options out there, but up until now, if you've wanted AAA quality, you needed to pay a subscription. That's where the majority of the competition comes in. Most casual players won't pay two subs. Each P2P game is competing for that player's money.
A B2P game shakes things up. It still needs to be quality, otherwise why pay anything at all over a F2P game, but the fact that it's potentially a one time purchase makes it so much more attractive. GW1 was not AAA quality, but it was pretty good and gave you a lot for the box price. GW2 is already demonstrating in demos that it will be AAA quality. In terms of bargains, it's really a no brainer compared to a P2P game if you're anticipating at all you're going to play the game more than a month or two.
That right there is why people can view the competition as being one sided. If GW2 isn't quite as good as your P2P MMO, it's still a bargain and worth paying for as a side game. If GW2 is better than other P2P MMOs you're interested in, then you really have to question what you're paying the sub for.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It's not as direct as you think. Let's take movies for example. Say I have a subscription to netflix for $9.99 per month and I bought a season of a show I really wanted for $9.99. Now both items are mine to spend my time with how I want but commonsense dictates that I will use the netflix service to watch as many movies as I can and not really feel compelled to watch the one I bought outright because I technically own it (I have no fear of losing it, ever).
I really don't own the movies from netflix so my time is better spent taking advantage of the service while I can. And if the day comes that I have to cancel my netflix sub, I always have the T.V. series I bought for $9.99 I can watch in a pinch. Does that make sense to you?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
GW2 for quite a bit of people seems in complete. You guys try and write off pve raiding and the gerbil wheel like it is nothing, but getting rid of that and direct healers actually turns off a lot of people to this game.
So people will do this:
GW2 for their pvp and SWToR for their pve
GW2 for their pvp and Rift for their pve
GW2 for their pvp and WoW for their pve
The game honestly looks half complete. Dynamic content is seriously just not enough atleast for me.
I envy them as well.
I'm really sorry that GW1 killed your dog or whatever happened that makes you relentlessly bash GW2. This thread is about the payment model and the perception (whether or not it's true) that a B2P game is not in competition with a P2P game.
If anything, what I could take away from your post is that SWTOR, Rift and WoW players will buy GW2 but only for the PVP. I'm pretty sure if that happened then ArenaNet would somehow be ok having to focus their future efforts on more PVP content for the 12 million people who just bought it.
I'm not even going to address why there's no reason to be concerned about the lack of pve raiding and direct healing. It's off topic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Saying it looks half complete is ridiculous. It might be content not suited to you. It is certainly enough content. I would be willing to bet large sums of money there will be more content in GW2 at release than there was in EQ, WoW, SWG, and most other MMOs at their respective releases.
The people who want the gerbil wheel are welcome to it. There are many games that cater to that. Raiding does not make content difficult, nor do gear tiers. There is obviously a sizeable portion of players who are tired of that. GW2 is for them. There are piles of games for those who still want it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Variety. Two different games provides variety. Assuming of course that both are good enough for my taste.
No this thread is proposing that just because a game is B2P with no sub that it should automatically compete with what is on the market. What I am very clearly telling you is IF YOUR GAME IS COMPLETE then it will compete.
This concept is simple. All I see from Guild Wars 2 is pvp pvp pvppvpvpvpvppvpv and more pvpvpvpvp. All I know about pvp'rs is they bitch constantly and never ever shut up. Only thing I have heard about pve on GW2 is some open world dynamic stuff we have no idea what the rewards are and some 5 man dungeons with different modes and anything past 5man is just evil and not allowed.
Sorry, but 7 years of WoW completely wtfpwning this market with release raid ---> nerf raid ---> release raid strategy prove you guys are in the minority. You can not just leave pve instanced raiding out of your game. It just looks incomplete to me. I mean even SWToR figured out how to fit it in there.
But in quality, of course Netflix is going to be better than a single season of a TV show. You're placing the two entities on uneven terms.
The thing with GW2 and [insert subscription based game here] is, they're possible on the same level of quality, and content. They're both built to keep you entertained for a large period of time, and they're both promising an incredible gaming experience.
The way you described it would assure that Guild Wars 2 is the last resort in the scenario every time that you pay for the 2 MMO's.
Of course, this would work if you preferred [insert subscription based MMO here] after playing both, and decided GW2 was a great game and you'd go back to it sparingly when you weren't playing [insert subscription based MMO here] but what if it's the other way around? If you love Guild Wars 2 more, then you'd most likely be playing that instead of [insert subscription based MMO here].
You're entitled to your opinion, but....that's all it is is your opinion. Now I'm going to give you mine. I HATE raiding. I am so fucking sick of raiding that I sincerely would not care if it NEVER appeared in another MMO for as long as I live. Now.....that is just one opinion, however, I'm pretty confident that I'm not the only one that feels that way. It's time for something different than raiding. ANYTHING different from raiding. Seriously.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Off-topic, sorry.
But I see a lot of people using that Jeff Strain quote... I might hop on that bandwagon
I loved his speech.
Inasmuch as the conversation of whether the p2p MMOs are going to take a hit from GW2 & SWTOR, I wish to toss another log on the fire. Do you believe that the release of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim will have an effect on MMO population? I, for one, will have Skyrim on my machine as soon as it is possible to do so. If I find it as engaging as past Elder Scrolls titles, I could be away from MMOs (currently LotRO) for 3 or more months, which means I would probably cancel my sub for that time period. There are quite a large number of people waiting for this title, which is why I bring it up here.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
Puremallice is just saying he sees not enough content for him. I am not worried about GW2 yet, until it is due release.
Comparing GW2 to EQ (upon release), or WoW (around early 2005, its release+opening new servers) is not going to help GW2. GW2 is competing against games now, that have fully decked out content, population base and so on. I sure hope GW2 success, one more option for me to choose from so that I can drop some older games. But to be so naive as to expect GW2 to succeed just because it would be a great game comparing to the 2005 standard is not going to help.
Lets hope A-Net pull this off.
There is opinion and their is fact. 11.1 million Sheeple still play WoW...possibly 1mil play Rift based on this model....2million may sign up for SWToR and it has raiding.
These are real numbers. Just because you do not like it does not make it untrue. GW2 saying they will not do it "because" other games is doing it is silly. I have yet to see ArenaNET come out and say why they are not doing pve instance raiding content.
I have a theory that removing the trinity makes it impossible to actually do. I have a feeling that removing a tank and a direct healer makes a actual challenging boss fight possible without it being a huge zerg. Let ArenaNET prove me wrong or find me some Q and A as to why they are not doing it.
Without pve instance raiding GW2 is releasing incomplete in my view. No game without it has done good in this market. I just have not seen it. People associate some type of raiding with end game and this is just how it works.
If all you're seeing from GW2 is pvp, then you're not opening your eyes. We know where are 1500-1600 dynamic events (and that count was from August of last year, so who knows if it's increased). This measures favorable compared to the number of WoW's quests at launch (WoW had more quests, but divided over two factions and included all sorts of fedex. DEs are more involved). There's a branching personal story for each race, my estimate is that there's enough to do it 3x for each race with little repetition. There's 8 dungeons each with 4 paths. There's 5-6 unique minigames per each of the 5 capital cities. There's all sorts of minigame type things to do out in the world at a lot of the farms and such.
Raiding is a treadmill. It's being one zone 4 hours a day, 3-4 times per week until you get it down, then moving on to the next. ArenaNet isn't choosing to exclude it because they want their game to be incomplete, they're doing it because they don't want people to be forced to do that. The game is about horizontal progression and gaining better skins or more skills, not increasing power. If you want to "raid" in GW2, pick a dungeon and run it for 12 hours a week. We know the level 35 (of 80) dungeon was a 3 hour wipefest. I'm sure that either the high end dungeons will be extremely challenging, or if people want even greater challenges, ArenaNet could provide them in a DLC. That's a far cry from the game being woefully incomplete and only good for PVP. Where did you even get that impression anyway? We've seen one battleground so far. How many PVE zones have we seen? At least 6.
Sure, WoW has cornered the market and has a raiding based game. But you say you can't just leave raiding out of the game. How are all these games that have tried to copy WoW doing these days?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
they dont due raiding because they dont make there game have a gear grind (that is required to progress) max stats on gear is very easy to come by. The challenge in the game comes from dungeons (that you dont have to do) which require teamwork and no one that has come into their studio to play has finished (due to the amount of team and knowlege of the game that is required) and PvP which will involve a huge percent of the population due to you wanting to be on the best server. The end game is similar but the fact that NOT grinding the same dungeon over and over and over doesnt inhibit your ability to perform in eng game PvP or PvE. raiding is a crap way to keep people playing and basing your game around a reward system to keep people playing instead of a FUN FACTOR is just a way companies can buy time to spread between patches.
I think there are a lot of raid events in GW2. When certain dynamic events are triggered, they spawn dragons n the like. Its not instanced, which can be seen as a pro or con. On the one hand, its happening in the game world and anybody can run up and participate and be automatically included in the raid. On the other hand, you have to sacrifice certain gameplay preferences that for some, are a deal breaker and dont classify as a complete mmo.
I can see the appeal of both. But the fact is that there is a very large demographic of mmo players who enjoy getting a large group of people they know together, hop on vent, go into an instance where they cannot be interfered with, and take down bosses using various strategies.
Besides, I thought I read somewhere that you can raid the 5 man dungeons. Any details on that from some of the GW2 encyclopedias around here?
Rift is actually doing pretty damn well actually. It turns out if you release a game and the devs do not go on a 12 month hiatus that you can have 60 healthy servers and content updates every month.
So tell me this. I take my 60man guild over to Guild Wars 2 and this raiding schedule we have automatically goes out the door because THERE IS NO RAIDING outside of this WvWvW stuff. What does my guild do in Guild Wars?
Hey guys I know there are 20 of us online...so I guess break into groups of 4 and go run some instances? Do you seriously see this working in reality? What is the point in even having a guild if there are no guild activities? What is the point of even having pve servers with no real pve?
Some instances seriously? My guild would destroy these instance in less then a month. Then what do we do? How do we challenge ourselves? Some more 5mans? You are seriously under estimating pve guild ability to just destroy content. You do not need some casual guild to come to Guild Wars. You need like a Paragon or Vodka. Where is the pve for them?
Some open world stuff that can be zerged down? This is where the doubt about GW2 is coming from. Not on the pvp side, but on the pve side.