There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Last game to have Chinese programmers was Final Fantasy 14...how did that turn out?
FF14 failed because of stubborn conceit designers and project leaders. Blaming a few programmer for a clunky unintuitive interface, totally empty world which is beautifully rendered, seems to be unfair.
FF14 failed because of stubborn conceit designers and project leaders. Blaming a few programmer for a clunky unintuitive interface, totally empty world which is beautifully rendered, seems to be unfair.
2 weeks before the game released IT DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE A MOUSE! That is the definition of lazy programming.
They're all fighting for the same free time. It doesn't matter that they're F2P, P2P, B2P or whatever. This is only an issue for people that can't afford 15 bucks / months for one of the cheapest methods of entertainment available right now... who aren't many.
http://titanfocus.info - news, predictions and place for discussions about Blizzard's upcoming next-gen MMO.
I dont understand how people think a B2P MMO like GW2 isnt in direct competition with P2P MMO like WoW, Rift, War, etc.
yes the payment models may be different, but what developers want, is population, not just Sub numbers as many people may assume. The higher the population, the less players feel alone, or in a empty world.
Also keep in mind, even though consumers can get GW2 and another MMO like SWTOR, that doesnt mean players can play both at the same time. which again, means the developers are fighting over player's time and interest.
For instances; had Allod been better and more quality, less P2W/IM it may been a great competitor with games like WoW and Rift. Why play Rift and WoW when you can play a quality free MMO that does the same thing pretty much?
again,,, Direct Competition.
If you disagree, prove me wrong.
With GW being a instance based MMO, I found almost no lag or loading issues....ever. With GW2 being a full presistant MMO and still being B2P, I was a bit worried.
After watching over a year of videos of battle fights and with lots of toons fighting bosses and on large scale groups fighting at the same time, I soon became a believer that ArenaNet can really pull this off. I am very excited to see ArenaNet prove to the MMO community , that they can make a game, that runs great, looks great and doesn't require you to Sub to enjoy a solid running game.
I am also a Bioware/Star Wars fan, so playing SWTOR is huge for me and paying for only one sub fee for two games which I know are going to be a big part of my MMO gaming, this is a big win for me.
....Let's just hope EA Servers can handle packed servers and heavy populated area's. ( this is something Blizzard has failed with WOW everytime)
As a person who has played WOW for 5+ years, paying a Sub fee has never proved to me that Blizzard can make a smooth running game, it takes patch after patch for the game to run almost smoothly, but still ends up not being of what I expect for a AAA MMO. I have played this game on multiple machines and most of them pretty high end, so it's never been a system spec issue, it's felt like the servers just haven't been updated or upgraded or just the lack of attention.
I can't wait to see when GW2 launches and see how it rolls out. I have a good feeling inside that ArenaNet will do a great job...here's to the future of MMO gaming.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
The two factors for competition for an mmo are time and money. With the way GW2's price structure is setup you have effectively eliminated one of those factors. So now the only competitive factor is time. There will be some competition but not nearly as much as if they had the same pricing model as as a pay to play mmo.
Originally posted by Palebane There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
WRONG. As soon as you pay $ to arenanet, you are considered a buyer. They don't need you to actually play the game at that point. As long as enough people are playing to remain attractive to new players, and they are well funded enough to keep the servers running, they don't need people who buy to actually play to be considered a success. With p2p, you ARE competing for gamers hours. But here, they are only competing for accounts. A person who plays the game once every few months is mostly worth the same as someone who plays every day.
Except for the fact that the person who plays daily adds value to the game, making the buy more attractive, and enticing more sales. So they do want to cater to these players to keep the game running for a long time.
No game competes for gamers time, they only compete for money. Where p2p model maximizes profit with player-hours, f2p maximizes profit for impulse buys, and b2b maximizes profit for box sales. They need many more people to buy the game than p2p, but they probably DONT want overall as many player-hours as a p2p game.
FF14 failed because of stubborn conceit designers and project leaders. Blaming a few programmer for a clunky unintuitive interface, totally empty world which is beautifully rendered, seems to be unfair.
2 weeks before the game released IT DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE A MOUSE! That is the definition of lazy programming.
As a programmer what do you follow? Spec. If there is no spec for a mouse, whose fault is it?
If the project manager allow a mouse function to go missing, whose fault is it?
Programming is the lowest level in a production chain, QC does not rest on their shoulders.
They won't be much competition on box sale, but you might have some when it come to sub. I don't think you can really play 2 mmos at the same time, i wouldn't personally. I'm sure i would end up playing the one that feel the best, but maybe other people would prefer to swap i don't know. In anycase Swtor and GW2 feel a bit complementary, so i wouldn't be surprise if a lot of gamer play both discontinually, just to break the boredom a single mmo bring.
There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
WRONG. As soon as you pay $ to arenanet, you are considered a buyer. They don't need you to actually play the game at that point. As long as enough people are playing to remain attractive to new players, and they are well funded enough to keep the servers running, they don't need people who buy to actually play to be considered a success. With p2p, you ARE competing for gamers hours. But here, they are only competing for accounts. A person who plays the game once every few months is mostly worth the same as someone who plays every day.
Except for the fact that the person who plays daily adds value to the game, making the buy more attractive, and enticing more sales. So they do want to cater to these players to keep the game running for a long time.
No game competes for gamers time, they only compete for money. Where p2p model maximizes profit with player-hours, f2p maximizes profit for impulse buys, and b2b maximizes profit for box sales. They need many more people to buy the game than p2p, but they probably DONT want overall as many player-hours as a p2p game.
If we are speaking purely about financial success, then I agree with you. In all other regards, my argument still stands. I was speaking more of retention than box sales. If players like GW2 and play it more than they do P2P games, guess who is going to lose. And payment model really has nothing to do with it outside the fact that players aren't (generally) going to keep paying a sub for a game they don't enjoy.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Its easy toally different audiences. ToR is aiming for hardcore StarWars and story fans in a scifi setting. Guild Wars 2 is aiming heavily at people sick of the same old same old and of course competitive PvP players in a steampunk settings (still cant believe they added an engineer).
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
WRONG. As soon as you pay $ to arenanet, you are considered a buyer. They don't need you to actually play the game at that point. As long as enough people are playing to remain attractive to new players, and they are well funded enough to keep the servers running, they don't need people who buy to actually play to be considered a success. With p2p, you ARE competing for gamers hours. But here, they are only competing for accounts. A person who plays the game once every few months is mostly worth the same as someone who plays every day.
Except for the fact that the person who plays daily adds value to the game, making the buy more attractive, and enticing more sales. So they do want to cater to these players to keep the game running for a long time.
No game competes for gamers time, they only compete for money. Where p2p model maximizes profit with player-hours, f2p maximizes profit for impulse buys, and b2b maximizes profit for box sales. They need many more people to buy the game than p2p, but they probably DONT want overall as many player-hours as a p2p game.
If we are speaking purely about financial success, then I agree with you. In all other regards, my argument still stands. I was speaking more of retention than box sales. If players like GW2 and play it more than they do P2P games, guess who is going to lose. And payment model really has nothing to do with it outside the fact that players aren't (generally) going to keep paying a sub for a game they don't enjoy.
Retention for a B2P game (otherwise known as a single player title) doesn't hinder those that require a subscription that much. Skyrim could pull people away from WoW, or SWTOR, or EQ2 or whatever, GW2 could do the same, and hell, look at ME3, its even in the same Sci-Fi genre..... BioWare competing with BioWare? Is it really competition if every game that comes out that is B2P could sufficiently take away a piece of your "pie".
Retention of B2P doesn't matter, retention of subscription and "freemium" titles do. While GW2 and SWTOR could be in a kind of competition, they really aren't. SWTOR is in a retention competition with other games the charge for retention. Guild Wars 2 is built around the idea that you will get bored enough to buy the next thing they come up with, hence its in more competition with other single player titles that require DLC packs to keep players playing.
If you want to set Anet up against BioWare, GW2 would have a closer financial battle with ME3 than it would with SWTOR. Both games will require content purchases to keep up with the newest content, both games are asking players to play until the game gets stale enough so you require the next batch of content.
What is the need for it to be? This is apples and oranges on so many levels. Direct competition meaning in the same demo and target buyers/participants? Accurate knowledge of the outcome of this premise over say 5 years would be damn near impossible to garner given obstacles in reporting the data.
The OP title is phrased as if this is something important. It begs the question: If GW2 is not in direct competition with SWTOR, WoW, etc then .... what? B2P < P2P, what is the point?
competition has winners and losers. Use that word and you institute a contest. The contest inferred must involve significant numbers of customers choosing one game over the other otherwise it is a contest with no effect or result. Is it likely that this will happen and the resulting coup will result in some measurable effect to the opposing game business model? LIke say 40% of P2P bailing for B2P, or 40% of F2P going to B2P?
The reason why previously F2P MMOs didn't affect P2P mmos is because there were no AAA titles that are F2P or F2P model allowed power buying [powerful items for $$] which people in the west detest.
This is about to change.
SWTOR is P2P and is competing with WoW and GW2 for player base and their subs.
GW2 is F2P [B2P is just sub category of F2P] and while it does compete to some little extent with other games - because someone might not stick to/buy GW2 and not make cash shop purchases - it isn't to such a huge degree.
WoW may lose subscrubers to GW2 because they can go "wow this game is awesome and sub-free" and so they evacuate WoW ship. Even if all of them got back to WoW most of them would still ave bought GW2 which already makes it successful in ANets eyes from business pov.
F2P games are a lot less affected by P2P games while P2P will be with release of GW2 greatly affected by F2P.
It is easier to play TOR [sub] + GW2 [no sub] than it is to play TOR [sub] + WoW [sub].
Chances GW2 won't be a successful game are extremely slim.
Now remember there can be more than 1 successful game. TOR & GW2 can be both successful.
Also Remember GW2 will likely have huge player base because it will have those who enjoy F2P and don't want to pay subs and it will have also WoW layers and TOR players who will buy the game either way cuz no sub required. Even if they play from time to time.
Where did you come up with that? B2P is what every other game outside the MMO genre is, doubt anyone would pluck it under the F2P category...
It's simple fact:P
Freemium, B2P etc also fall under F2P.
It's like humans, dolphins and dogs falling under mammals so it is B2P falling under F2P. Generally you got P2P and F2P with F2P having many different options for generating income some are B2P with microtransactions, some are fully F2P [no game purchase] with item shops etc. some other are freemium, more content for upgrading.
lol what the heck..where are you coming up with this stuff. The name actually says it FREE-to-play, BUY-to-play....hmmm do we need to bust out a dictionary also?
There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
WRONG. As soon as you pay $ to arenanet, you are considered a buyer. They don't need you to actually play the game at that point. As long as enough people are playing to remain attractive to new players, and they are well funded enough to keep the servers running, they don't need people who buy to actually play to be considered a success. With p2p, you ARE competing for gamers hours. But here, they are only competing for accounts. A person who plays the game once every few months is mostly worth the same as someone who plays every day.
Except for the fact that the person who plays daily adds value to the game, making the buy more attractive, and enticing more sales. So they do want to cater to these players to keep the game running for a long time.
No game competes for gamers time, they only compete for money. Where p2p model maximizes profit with player-hours, f2p maximizes profit for impulse buys, and b2b maximizes profit for box sales. They need many more people to buy the game than p2p, but they probably DONT want overall as many player-hours as a p2p game.
If we are speaking purely about financial success, then I agree with you. In all other regards, my argument still stands. I was speaking more of retention than box sales. If players like GW2 and play it more than they do P2P games, guess who is going to lose. And payment model really has nothing to do with it outside the fact that players aren't (generally) going to keep paying a sub for a game they don't enjoy.
Retention for a B2P game (otherwise known as a single player title) doesn't hinder those that require a subscription that much. Skyrim could pull people away from WoW, or SWTOR, or EQ2 or whatever, GW2 could do the same, and hell, look at ME3, its even in the same Sci-Fi genre..... BioWare competing with BioWare? Is it really competition if every game that comes out that is B2P could sufficiently take away a piece of your "pie".
Retention of B2P doesn't matter, retention of subscription and "freemium" titles do. While GW2 and SWTOR could be in a kind of competition, they really aren't. SWTOR is in a retention competition with other games the charge for retention. Guild Wars 2 is built around the idea that you will get bored enough to buy the next thing they come up with, hence its in more competition with other single player titles that require DLC packs to keep players playing.
If you want to set Anet up against BioWare, GW2 would have a closer financial battle with ME3 than it would with SWTOR. Both games will require content purchases to keep up with the newest content, both games are asking players to play until the game gets stale enough so you require the next batch of content.
And how is this different than what WoW does or EQ2 or hell....any MMO that has expansions? That's how it works. Buy to play and free to play are NOT the same. Buy to play requires buying the game. Free to play is free to download and play. As far as what you pay on TOP of those basic models, everyone knows that you buy expansions for buy to play games, just like for subscription MMOs and that both pay models (sometimes ALL models, since some subscription games also) have items shops full of different TYPE items.
I don't see what your issue is here unless maybe English just isn't your native language, which if that's the case, I understand. But seriously.....this doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.
The reason why previously F2P MMOs didn't affect P2P mmos is because there were no AAA titles that are F2P or F2P model allowed power buying [powerful items for $$] which people in the west detest.
This is about to change.
SWTOR is P2P and is competing with WoW and GW2 for player base and their subs.
GW2 is F2P [B2P is just sub category of F2P] and while it does compete to some little extent with other games - because someone might not stick to/buy GW2 and not make cash shop purchases - it isn't to such a huge degree.
WoW may lose subscrubers to GW2 because they can go "wow this game is awesome and sub-free" and so they evacuate WoW ship. Even if all of them got back to WoW most of them would still ave bought GW2 which already makes it successful in ANets eyes from business pov.
F2P games are a lot less affected by P2P games while P2P will be with release of GW2 greatly affected by F2P.
It is easier to play TOR [sub] + GW2 [no sub] than it is to play TOR [sub] + WoW [sub].
Chances GW2 won't be a successful game are extremely slim.
Now remember there can be more than 1 successful game. TOR & GW2 can be both successful.
Also Remember GW2 will likely have huge player base because it will have those who enjoy F2P and don't want to pay subs and it will have also WoW layers and TOR players who will buy the game either way cuz no sub required. Even if they play from time to time.
Where did you come up with that? B2P is what every other game outside the MMO genre is, doubt anyone would pluck it under the F2P category...
It's simple fact:P
Freemium, B2P etc also fall under F2P.
It's like humans, dolphins and dogs falling under mammals so it is B2P falling under F2P. Generally you got P2P and F2P with F2P having many different options for generating income some are B2P with microtransactions, some are fully F2P [no game purchase] with item shops etc. some other are freemium, more content for upgrading.
lol what the heck..where are you coming up with this stuff. The name actually says it FREE-to-play, BUY-to-play....hmmm do we need to bust out a dictionary also?
Some people seem to have a lot of trouble with small words like BUY and FREE. Perhaps a vocabulary lesson is in order.
its not the payment models that set them apart, and you would be right to not understand people who would assume such a thing..
what does set them apart is the genre and type of games they are.
guild wars is a pvp game it always has been and so will guild wars 2.. its focussed around guild versus guild combat in closed areanas.
swtor is a story driven mmo. completely diffrent.
so dont worry about it matey and pay no attention.. guil wars 2 will be much more successful than swtor. and by a vast margin.
This is a misconception.
GW2 will have a whole lot of PvE content in addition to PvP content...just like SWTOR. It will ship with thousands of dynamic events, several 5-man dungeons with four different "modes" each, and a personal story that each character can go through.
The only thing GW2 will not have is raiding (thank god)! And if you think that a game has to have raiding to be considered a PvE game, consider the fact that I have played tons of PvE in WoW, EQ, and other games but I have NEVER went on a single raid. There are plenty of people that just aren't attracted to raiding but do want to PvE.
I don't know why people think GW2 is going to be primarily a PvP game.
It's like humans, dolphins and dogs falling under mammals so it is B2P falling under F2P. Generally you got P2P and F2P with F2P having many different options for generating income some are B2P with microtransactions, some are fully F2P [no game purchase] with item shops etc. some other are freemium, more content for upgrading.
Free to Play, let's spell it out means Free to Play. There! You do not need to pay anything in order to start playing the game. You can play the game for as long as you want without paying a penny. You understand this right?
Then there is Buy to Play. You Buy the game, hence you do have to pay for it or you're not playing it (unless you got your hands on a temporary trial). So Buy the game, and you play for as long as you want. Still following?
And you have Pay to Play. You buy the game and you have to pay a, usually monthly, subscription for the priviledge of being able to continue playing the game. The first month's subscription is usually included in the box price. There are also trials possible in P2P games, but beyond some point you have to buy the game and you're going to eventually have to pay a subscription if you want to keep playing.
I hope that wasn't too confusing with the trials and all...
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
I don't see why many people assume GW2 will not offer sufficient content to keep people playing for an indefinite time. The game is much more publicized than its predecessor and is in a much better position to leech players from Wow than the original. TOR has the advantage of a huge franchise fanbase, while GW2 has an advantage of having a pretty big fanbase from the original game. Only time will tell which game has more allure to the players who are going to leave wow. TOR has a familiar combat and end game system, while GW2 shares the fantasy theme along to addressing many issues that Wow players are unhappy with. Whichever game does better at first, GW2 is still pretty certain to get very good sales numbers. Releasing a couple of major content updates a year will be no different from Wow, which relaased one new raid and some dailies along with recycled 5 mans in the past 8 months. Except in GW2 case it will be much cheaper for the player.
It is doubtful that TOR will have any more updates than Wow or GW2, Bioware and EA have been working hard to get the most money out of least amount of content in the past couple years. TOR and GW2 are definitely in direct competition, with TOR using the typical MMO model while GW2 trying to reach top tier as B2P.
Rift is actually doing pretty damn well actually. It turns out if you release a game and the devs do not go on a 12 month hiatus that you can have 60 healthy servers and content updates every month.
So tell me this. I take my 60man guild over to Guild Wars 2 and this raiding schedule we have automatically goes out the door because THERE IS NO RAIDING outside of this WvWvW stuff. What does my guild do in Guild Wars?
Hey guys I know there are 20 of us online...so I guess break into groups of 4 and go run some instances? Do you seriously see this working in reality? What is the point in even having a guild if there are no guild activities? What is the point of even having pve servers with no real pve?
Some instances seriously? My guild would destroy these instance in less then a month. Then what do we do? How do we challenge ourselves? Some more 5mans? You are seriously under estimating pve guild ability to just destroy content. You do not need some casual guild to come to Guild Wars. You need like a Paragon or Vodka. Where is the pve for them?
Some open world stuff that can be zerged down? This is where the doubt about GW2 is coming from. Not on the pvp side, but on the pve side.
First, you assume veryone wants large guild based games. I hate instances. I would rather sit back, go kill some open world creatures for some purpose(swg style, krayts for pearls, others for hide/meat/leather) or epic world bosses. I can't bring myself to sit through another raid, I raided for probably 5months total of my play time.
I want small group content, 3-4 with no set classes allowing us to effectively complete stuff. Rift had a good showing, but its instances were a snooze fest after they changed them and was 100% equipment based and not skill based(heard it might of changed since then) GW2 and TSW seem to be the games for me coming out.
How do you challenge yourself? How about a game allowing more freedom and not just a "this way for this class or SOL" I find it hardpressed and you stated yourself that pve content is not challenging, so really what are you looking for in a game. Unless games offer multiple ways to defeat enemies other than, tank and spank, off tank this, off tank that, run over here when you get debuff on until it removes it self then go back, etc basic generic strategies that require 24ish people to be on the same page it will never be challenging.
As for games that are successful without raiding, unless I'm mistaken EVE is pretty successful, and swg was 100-200k subs before the cu/nge hit and there was no raiding. Raiding was a cool feature back in the day, its an outdated and bland overused concept built because some people want scheduled raids, and as you pointed out its still a steep figure with WoW and now Rift doing well built on the gear grind method(and what SWKOR will have) I personally have no desire to play raids, but a few friends do and for everyone like me, there is 10 other than like gear grinds(be it 5mans or raiding)
One concept you don't seem to understand regarding GW2: They can get away without end-game raiding because of their payment model. B2P means they don't have compete with other subscription games and keep their community past the endgame. Their "endgame" so to speak, will come in the form of expansions down the road. Until that point, players can either do the instances with their mains, continue with their personal story and dynamic content, pvp with their mains, or re-roll alts and go through another story line. The dynamic, ever-changing levelling process will keep that content fresh. ArenaNet isn't concerned if people get bored at endgame, and guess what? Neither are the players who will be playing. B2P allows you to leave GW2 as you want and play another game if you are bored. The fact you aren't paying a subscription makes it stress-free for the player and ArenaNet. Take a break and go play another game since you aren't paying for GW2 beyond the box. As long as ArenaNet pumps out expansions that are full of new, impressive content....and truth be told, they have a very impressive track record in this regard, they'll get their box sales and players will continue to come back.
As for your assertion that the game is being released incomplete because it doesn't hae raiding...you are dead wrong. Your mindset is part of the problem with many gamers these days. Believe it or not, there are MMO gamers who don't care to raid. Period. Not everyone who plays MMOs cares to be put in the gerbil wheel, force do continuously chase gear. The people that play Guild Wars 2 aren't looking to raid. That's why they're playing the game. So for you to say the game is being release incomplete totally misses the point of why people are attracted to this game in the first place.
Telling me that because of the payment model they can not compete is a pretty horrible way to make me want to even play this game. Hearing Soon(tm) from a company financed by NCSoon does not exactly inspire confidence in your audience.
I consider it incomplete and I am not alone. We are not doubting GW2 because of the payment model and fans of the game need to get that through their heads. There is no legitimate reason to get rid of 20+ man instance raiding content. I see nothing that prevents GW2 from being taken seriously as a pve raiding game and a pvp raiding game.
Correct me if I am wrong but I remember ANet saying that they do not even try to compete with other MMORPGs,
They are not making the game for your casual MMO players, GW/2 is all about players personal story, causing effect and dynamic ever changing world. Raiding is generally a monotone repetitions of same instance over and over again for a piece or 2 of gear which you may or may not get at all. It's very time consuming and gets boring after a while. And the big guild events are Guild Battles are other kind of PvP, hence the name of GUILD WARS.
And I say it once more: GW2 is NOT for people who love "working" full work hours in the same dungeon grinding their gear on daily basis. This game is for individuals who seek an epic adventure, who occasionally band together to aid one another in their quest for glory.
Take it as a singleplayer RPG with with MMO elements in it.
Comments
There's only so many players in the world, and so many hours in the day. Payment model doesn't mean a thing. All games compete with each other for played hours every day. That would be more important for online games, I assume, regardless of payment model.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
FF14 failed because of stubborn conceit designers and project leaders. Blaming a few programmer for a clunky unintuitive interface, totally empty world which is beautifully rendered, seems to be unfair.
2 weeks before the game released IT DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE A MOUSE! That is the definition of lazy programming.
They're all fighting for the same free time. It doesn't matter that they're F2P, P2P, B2P or whatever. This is only an issue for people that can't afford 15 bucks / months for one of the cheapest methods of entertainment available right now... who aren't many.
http://titanfocus.info - news, predictions and place for discussions about Blizzard's upcoming next-gen MMO.
With GW being a instance based MMO, I found almost no lag or loading issues....ever. With GW2 being a full presistant MMO and still being B2P, I was a bit worried.
After watching over a year of videos of battle fights and with lots of toons fighting bosses and on large scale groups fighting at the same time, I soon became a believer that ArenaNet can really pull this off. I am very excited to see ArenaNet prove to the MMO community , that they can make a game, that runs great, looks great and doesn't require you to Sub to enjoy a solid running game.
I am also a Bioware/Star Wars fan, so playing SWTOR is huge for me and paying for only one sub fee for two games which I know are going to be a big part of my MMO gaming, this is a big win for me.
....Let's just hope EA Servers can handle packed servers and heavy populated area's. ( this is something Blizzard has failed with WOW everytime)
As a person who has played WOW for 5+ years, paying a Sub fee has never proved to me that Blizzard can make a smooth running game, it takes patch after patch for the game to run almost smoothly, but still ends up not being of what I expect for a AAA MMO. I have played this game on multiple machines and most of them pretty high end, so it's never been a system spec issue, it's felt like the servers just haven't been updated or upgraded or just the lack of attention.
I can't wait to see when GW2 launches and see how it rolls out. I have a good feeling inside that ArenaNet will do a great job...here's to the future of MMO gaming.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
The two factors for competition for an mmo are time and money. With the way GW2's price structure is setup you have effectively eliminated one of those factors. So now the only competitive factor is time. There will be some competition but not nearly as much as if they had the same pricing model as as a pay to play mmo.
WRONG. As soon as you pay $ to arenanet, you are considered a buyer. They don't need you to actually play the game at that point. As long as enough people are playing to remain attractive to new players, and they are well funded enough to keep the servers running, they don't need people who buy to actually play to be considered a success. With p2p, you ARE competing for gamers hours. But here, they are only competing for accounts. A person who plays the game once every few months is mostly worth the same as someone who plays every day.
Except for the fact that the person who plays daily adds value to the game, making the buy more attractive, and enticing more sales. So they do want to cater to these players to keep the game running for a long time.
No game competes for gamers time, they only compete for money. Where p2p model maximizes profit with player-hours, f2p maximizes profit for impulse buys, and b2b maximizes profit for box sales. They need many more people to buy the game than p2p, but they probably DONT want overall as many player-hours as a p2p game.
As a programmer what do you follow? Spec. If there is no spec for a mouse, whose fault is it?
If the project manager allow a mouse function to go missing, whose fault is it?
Programming is the lowest level in a production chain, QC does not rest on their shoulders.
They won't be much competition on box sale, but you might have some when it come to sub. I don't think you can really play 2 mmos at the same time, i wouldn't personally. I'm sure i would end up playing the one that feel the best, but maybe other people would prefer to swap i don't know. In anycase Swtor and GW2 feel a bit complementary, so i wouldn't be surprise if a lot of gamer play both discontinually, just to break the boredom a single mmo bring.
If we are speaking purely about financial success, then I agree with you. In all other regards, my argument still stands. I was speaking more of retention than box sales. If players like GW2 and play it more than they do P2P games, guess who is going to lose. And payment model really has nothing to do with it outside the fact that players aren't (generally) going to keep paying a sub for a game they don't enjoy.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Its easy toally different audiences. ToR is aiming for hardcore StarWars and story fans in a scifi setting. Guild Wars 2 is aiming heavily at people sick of the same old same old and of course competitive PvP players in a steampunk settings (still cant believe they added an engineer).
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Retention for a B2P game (otherwise known as a single player title) doesn't hinder those that require a subscription that much. Skyrim could pull people away from WoW, or SWTOR, or EQ2 or whatever, GW2 could do the same, and hell, look at ME3, its even in the same Sci-Fi genre..... BioWare competing with BioWare? Is it really competition if every game that comes out that is B2P could sufficiently take away a piece of your "pie".
Retention of B2P doesn't matter, retention of subscription and "freemium" titles do. While GW2 and SWTOR could be in a kind of competition, they really aren't. SWTOR is in a retention competition with other games the charge for retention. Guild Wars 2 is built around the idea that you will get bored enough to buy the next thing they come up with, hence its in more competition with other single player titles that require DLC packs to keep players playing.
If you want to set Anet up against BioWare, GW2 would have a closer financial battle with ME3 than it would with SWTOR. Both games will require content purchases to keep up with the newest content, both games are asking players to play until the game gets stale enough so you require the next batch of content.
its not the payment models that set them apart, and you would be right to not understand people who would assume such a thing..
what does set them apart is the genre and type of games they are.
guild wars is a pvp game it always has been and so will guild wars 2.. its focussed around guild versus guild combat in closed areanas.
swtor is a story driven mmo. completely diffrent.
so dont worry about it matey and pay no attention.. guil wars 2 will be much more successful than swtor. and by a vast margin.
What is the need for it to be? This is apples and oranges on so many levels. Direct competition meaning in the same demo and target buyers/participants? Accurate knowledge of the outcome of this premise over say 5 years would be damn near impossible to garner given obstacles in reporting the data.
The OP title is phrased as if this is something important. It begs the question: If GW2 is not in direct competition with SWTOR, WoW, etc then .... what? B2P < P2P, what is the point?
competition has winners and losers. Use that word and you institute a contest. The contest inferred must involve significant numbers of customers choosing one game over the other otherwise it is a contest with no effect or result. Is it likely that this will happen and the resulting coup will result in some measurable effect to the opposing game business model? LIke say 40% of P2P bailing for B2P, or 40% of F2P going to B2P?
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
lol what the heck..where are you coming up with this stuff. The name actually says it FREE-to-play, BUY-to-play....hmmm do we need to bust out a dictionary also?
And how is this different than what WoW does or EQ2 or hell....any MMO that has expansions? That's how it works. Buy to play and free to play are NOT the same. Buy to play requires buying the game. Free to play is free to download and play. As far as what you pay on TOP of those basic models, everyone knows that you buy expansions for buy to play games, just like for subscription MMOs and that both pay models (sometimes ALL models, since some subscription games also) have items shops full of different TYPE items.
I don't see what your issue is here unless maybe English just isn't your native language, which if that's the case, I understand. But seriously.....this doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Some people seem to have a lot of trouble with small words like BUY and FREE. Perhaps a vocabulary lesson is in order.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
This is a misconception.
GW2 will have a whole lot of PvE content in addition to PvP content...just like SWTOR. It will ship with thousands of dynamic events, several 5-man dungeons with four different "modes" each, and a personal story that each character can go through.
The only thing GW2 will not have is raiding (thank god)! And if you think that a game has to have raiding to be considered a PvE game, consider the fact that I have played tons of PvE in WoW, EQ, and other games but I have NEVER went on a single raid. There are plenty of people that just aren't attracted to raiding but do want to PvE.
I don't know why people think GW2 is going to be primarily a PvP game.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Free to Play, let's spell it out means Free to Play. There! You do not need to pay anything in order to start playing the game. You can play the game for as long as you want without paying a penny. You understand this right?
Then there is Buy to Play. You Buy the game, hence you do have to pay for it or you're not playing it (unless you got your hands on a temporary trial). So Buy the game, and you play for as long as you want. Still following?
And you have Pay to Play. You buy the game and you have to pay a, usually monthly, subscription for the priviledge of being able to continue playing the game. The first month's subscription is usually included in the box price. There are also trials possible in P2P games, but beyond some point you have to buy the game and you're going to eventually have to pay a subscription if you want to keep playing.
I hope that wasn't too confusing with the trials and all...
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
I don't see why many people assume GW2 will not offer sufficient content to keep people playing for an indefinite time. The game is much more publicized than its predecessor and is in a much better position to leech players from Wow than the original. TOR has the advantage of a huge franchise fanbase, while GW2 has an advantage of having a pretty big fanbase from the original game. Only time will tell which game has more allure to the players who are going to leave wow. TOR has a familiar combat and end game system, while GW2 shares the fantasy theme along to addressing many issues that Wow players are unhappy with. Whichever game does better at first, GW2 is still pretty certain to get very good sales numbers. Releasing a couple of major content updates a year will be no different from Wow, which relaased one new raid and some dailies along with recycled 5 mans in the past 8 months. Except in GW2 case it will be much cheaper for the player.
It is doubtful that TOR will have any more updates than Wow or GW2, Bioware and EA have been working hard to get the most money out of least amount of content in the past couple years. TOR and GW2 are definitely in direct competition, with TOR using the typical MMO model while GW2 trying to reach top tier as B2P.
First, you assume veryone wants large guild based games. I hate instances. I would rather sit back, go kill some open world creatures for some purpose(swg style, krayts for pearls, others for hide/meat/leather) or epic world bosses. I can't bring myself to sit through another raid, I raided for probably 5months total of my play time.
I want small group content, 3-4 with no set classes allowing us to effectively complete stuff. Rift had a good showing, but its instances were a snooze fest after they changed them and was 100% equipment based and not skill based(heard it might of changed since then) GW2 and TSW seem to be the games for me coming out.
How do you challenge yourself? How about a game allowing more freedom and not just a "this way for this class or SOL" I find it hardpressed and you stated yourself that pve content is not challenging, so really what are you looking for in a game. Unless games offer multiple ways to defeat enemies other than, tank and spank, off tank this, off tank that, run over here when you get debuff on until it removes it self then go back, etc basic generic strategies that require 24ish people to be on the same page it will never be challenging.
As for games that are successful without raiding, unless I'm mistaken EVE is pretty successful, and swg was 100-200k subs before the cu/nge hit and there was no raiding. Raiding was a cool feature back in the day, its an outdated and bland overused concept built because some people want scheduled raids, and as you pointed out its still a steep figure with WoW and now Rift doing well built on the gear grind method(and what SWKOR will have) I personally have no desire to play raids, but a few friends do and for everyone like me, there is 10 other than like gear grinds(be it 5mans or raiding)
Correct me if I am wrong but I remember ANet saying that they do not even try to compete with other MMORPGs,
They are not making the game for your casual MMO players, GW/2 is all about players personal story, causing effect and dynamic ever changing world. Raiding is generally a monotone repetitions of same instance over and over again for a piece or 2 of gear which you may or may not get at all. It's very time consuming and gets boring after a while. And the big guild events are Guild Battles are other kind of PvP, hence the name of GUILD WARS.
And I say it once more: GW2 is NOT for people who love "working" full work hours in the same dungeon grinding their gear on daily basis. This game is for individuals who seek an epic adventure, who occasionally band together to aid one another in their quest for glory.
Take it as a singleplayer RPG with with MMO elements in it.