I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
Agreed. I see the comment in relationship to time required per session or amount of times something has to be repeated, as well. Luc, your confusion regarding the quoted comment is rooted in your misunderstanding of the reason for the quoted comment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
That is what MMO's are....or were anyways. It is what seperated them from console gaming. If people want quick gratification, that is what console games are made for. I have seen that comment TONS on these and other forums...and wasted my breath saying what I just did here...because new gamers just don't get it.
If that's what you want to beleive, that's fine. A lot of people have had that beat into their heads by the repeated EQ style gameplay.
However, not every MMO is a torturous graphical variant of DikuMUD. In UO, AC and several of the other early MMOs you could easily jump in, recall to a social hub or hunting ground, and get something accomplished in a fifteen minute to half hour or so gaming session if you wanted.
So to say that's what MMOs are or were is false. There's more to MMOs than EQ and WoW, goat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The argument is correctly applied to game features which eat up 60+ minutes per sitting. That's unreasonable and will inevitably be purged (because even when gameplay is divided into sub-60 chunks, a player with more time is free to play multiple chunks per sitting. obviously.)
In your opinion. And why should your opinion matter if the game is not targeted to you regardless if you wish you could play it or not? I wish I could drive a Lambourghini, but I doubt they're going to drop the price for me just so i can be in the same club someone else is in.
I don't mean to say niche games will be completely purged (although I often point out the inherent futility of wanting a niche game which is also a massively-multiplayer game, which is also AAA-quality.)
But the market as a whole experiences a form of natural evolution. Companies producing broad games can afford large budgets and still thrive. Companies producing niche games can't, and will die if they attempt to spend large budgets.
Companies which make expensive niche games automatically disappear from the market.
And to bring it full circle in case it isn't clear: games with reasonable play session length are less niche. (And for what it's worth they can be just as deep, meaningful, immersive, and fun as anything you can do in an ultra-long play session. There are really few quantifiable benefits to activities which last longer than an hour; even for the niche people who want that.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
That is what MMO's are....or were anyways. It is what seperated them from console gaming. If people want quick gratification, that is what console games are made for. I have seen that comment TONS on these and other forums...and wasted my breath saying what I just did here...because new gamers just don't get it.
There for...the genre is fading away into glorified console RPG's full of community killing instancingfests, microtransaction and cash shop ridden games that gimp you to force you to buy, and extremely boring gameplay that is easy enough for any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient to complete in a month or less. I also don't know why the term, or game mechanic of "end game" exists in MMORPG's at all. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey, NOT the destination.
I EXPECT a MMO to waste lots of my time. That's what I pay the monthly fee for. People that "don't have time" should probably find another form of entertainment for which they do have time. MMOs orginially weren't made to "be won" or have "an end game". They were themselves an "Endless game".
That's a big downfall of this genre going mainstream. It's identity was/is being stripped away and making it look more and more like limited play/content console, single player games.
I can't speak for every game, but I remember exactly how much time I wasted playing the original Everquest. Now that I'm a full time college student, I don't see how it's healthy for any productive individual (be it college student or member of the workforce) to spend that much time in front a video game. Community building and immersion are all great, but lets not lose perspective. Your fake life in a virtual world is meaningless compared to your life in the real world.
People say WoW is so easy because it takes like a week to hit the max level, but if you'd log in and play for just a couple hours a day every day, you probably wouldn't even be halfway to 85 in a week's time. The people that say it takes only a week to hit the cap are the people that spend about twelve hours a day logged into a video game running through the quests over and over until their eyes bleed.
I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
That is what MMO's are....or were anyways. It is what seperated them from console gaming. If people want quick gratification, that is what console games are made for. I have seen that comment TONS on these and other forums...and wasted my breath saying what I just did here...because new gamers just don't get it.
There for...the genre is fading away into glorified console RPG's full of community killing instancingfests, microtransaction and cash shop ridden games that gimp you to force you to buy, and extremely boring gameplay that is easy enough for any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient to complete in a month or less. I also don't know why the term, or game mechanic of "end game" exists in MMORPG's at all. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey, NOT the destination.
I EXPECT a MMO to waste lots of my time. That's what I pay the monthly fee for. People that "don't have time" should probably find another form of entertainment for which they do have time. MMOs orginially weren't made to "be won" or have "an end game". They were themselves an "Endless game".
That's a big downfall of this genre going mainstream. It's identity was/is being stripped away and making it look more and more like limited play/content console, single player games.
I can't speak for every game, but I remember exactly how much time I wasted playing the original Everquest. Now that I'm a full time college student, I don't see how it's healthy for any productive individual (be it college student or member of the workforce) to spend that much time in front a video game. Community building and immersion are all great, but lets not lose perspective. Your fake life in a virtual world is meaningless compared to your life in the real world.
People say WoW is so easy because it takes like a week to hit the max level, but if you'd log in and play for just a couple hours a day every day, you probably wouldn't even be halfway to 85 in a week's time. The people that say it takes only a week to hit the cap are the people that spend about twelve hours a day logged into a video game running through the quests over and over until their eyes bleed.
I don't think any perspective is lost. You personally may not be able to be productive and game that much but I know that there are a ton of folks that are. I took a 15 hour course load and did it. I worked a 40+ hour/week job for years and did it. I have a 1 month old now (though I do not work anymore, wife spoils me), am a stay at home dad that keeps house and yard, an adult leader for Boy Scouts of America and I'm sure I'll do it when I play TOR.
WHat I see most people complaining about is that they don't want to commit that amount of time for this hobby and still not be able to go out and drink and party and do that social stuff. Well, I don't do those things, so I really don't feel any sympathy for them. They just need to pick how they want to spend their free time. I spend mine on the internet playing games. And, like I said, I'm pretty sure I'm healthy and productive.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
That is what MMO's are....or were anyways. It is what seperated them from console gaming. If people want quick gratification, that is what console games are made for. I have seen that comment TONS on these and other forums...and wasted my breath saying what I just did here...because new gamers just don't get it.
There for...the genre is fading away into glorified console RPG's full of community killing instancingfests, microtransaction and cash shop ridden games that gimp you to force you to buy, and extremely boring gameplay that is easy enough for any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient to complete in a month or less. I also don't know why the term, or game mechanic of "end game" exists in MMORPG's at all. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey, NOT the destination.
I EXPECT a MMO to waste lots of my time. That's what I pay the monthly fee for. People that "don't have time" should probably find another form of entertainment for which they do have time. MMOs orginially weren't made to "be won" or have "an end game". They were themselves an "Endless game".
That's a big downfall of this genre going mainstream. It's identity was/is being stripped away and making it look more and more like limited play/content console, single player games.
I can't speak for every game, but I remember exactly how much time I wasted playing the original Everquest. Now that I'm a full time college student, I don't see how it's healthy for any productive individual (be it college student or member of the workforce) to spend that much time in front a video game. Community building and immersion are all great, but lets not lose perspective. Your fake life in a virtual world is meaningless compared to your life in the real world.
People say WoW is so easy because it takes like a week to hit the max level, but if you'd log in and play for just a couple hours a day every day, you probably wouldn't even be halfway to 85 in a week's time. The people that say it takes only a week to hit the cap are the people that spend about twelve hours a day logged into a video game running through the quests over and over until their eyes bleed.
Let me guess. If you had your way, we'd all have limits placed on our gaming like China, too.
But wait, it's unhealthy to be in front of the computer long hours? Well then, might as well get rid of video games altogether, since obviously the devs are spending unhealthy amounts in front of their computer every day.
Wait, have to get rid of operating sytems becuase the guys at Apple and Microsoft spend way too much time in front of their computers all day.
Wait, might as well not have any software period, as software developers spend hours in front of computers every day.
Wait, better get rid of computers, because there nothing left to run on them.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I understand that Players in the Everquest and Ultima days has grown up and have other activities and responsibilities that they need to spend their precious time on. But what i don't understand is when this quoted " I don't have enough time anymore " is translated to how long will this game take to reach cap level.
I believe fully that An MMO is supposed to be endless, there should never be a cap, there should be episodic patches and expansions that expands the world. New challenges from these new worlds , new zones and new regions. New Wars new battles.
Players shouldn't have to have an cap waiting for them. Time should be on our terms, If i play an hour, I should be playing for an hour, If i wanted to play 12 hours straight , i should be playing 12 hours straight.
But lately I have been reading comments that 1 hour gamers wanted to get the same growth as the 12 hour gamer, and that is just rediculous.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I understand that Players in the Everquest and Ultima days has grown up and have other activities and responsibilities that they need to spend their precious time on. But what i don't understand is when this quoted " I don't have enough time anymore " is translated to how long will this game take to reach cap level.
I believe fully that An MMO is supposed to be endless, there should never be a cap, there should be episodic patches and expansions that expands the world. New challenges from these new worlds , new zones and new regions. New Wars new battles.
Players shouldn't have to have an cap waiting for them. Time should be on our terms, If i play an hour, I should be playing for an hour, If i wanted to play 12 hours straight , i should be playing 12 hours straight.
But lately I have been reading comments that 1 hour gamers wanted to get the same growth as the 12 hour gamer, and that is just rediculous.
I think people are misunderstanding. I don't know anyone who wants to reach level cap in no time. What I do know people want, is that they want their 12 one hour sessions to net them as much reward as someone elses one 12 hour session. Do you see the difference?
Now the problem is that the old games often made any reward require at least 4 hours of investment (spawn camping and similar time sinks) and as people have grown up or on, they've said - I don't want that experience. Some of the newer games, and I'm going to blame WoW here, have gone in the direction of, the only real reward is the lvl or gear treadmill, so that is all there really is to the game is leveling in one form or another. It doesn't have to be this way, in fact Vanguard in its current iteration offers a game where gamers can hope in and accomplish something in a short period of time, while it still divides most of the "end game" rewards into time consuming chuncks, most of the game can be devoured in smaller bites.
Right now people are conflating casual friendly games with end game heavy games, which does not have to be the case, just because it happens to be the norm.
I used to go to work but I don’t have enough time anymore what with a family and everything. At most I can spend one or two hours a day at work and I like to feel I have got something done in that time, feel that it was worthwhile.
I do my dailies, check my emails and pass my in tray onto my colleges, but by then I have to be heading home. What really gets my goat is when some guild guy who has put in a full day complains I am on the same benefits as he is! It’s my gamer rights which are at stake here, I have the same right to everything he does.
Have to go…can just about squeeze an hour in game before CSI.
#1: People who 'don't have time' usually mean that they aren't having fun or have changed priorities. People will make time for what they truly want to do.
#2: People who don't have time usually refer to the fact that they feel helplessly behind those who play more. They see minimal progression in the time they play, so what's the use if they can't keep up with others. They are at a constant disadvantage in PvP and progression.
#1: People who 'don't have time' usually mean that they aren't having fun or have changed priorities. People will make time for what they truly want to do.
#2: People who don't have time usually refer to the fact that they feel helplessly behind those who play more. They see minimal progression in the time they play, so what's the use if they can't keep up with others. They are at a constant disadvantage in PvP and progression.
Agreed.
A good chunk of players nowadays either dont want to make time (cant miss my jersey shore!), or changed their life so that time is now limited. But they still want rewards for doing in 1 hour that someone else spent 4 hours on. Its turning into a cluster fk of haves and have-nots.
and for #2, thats where your, "I dont like that, change the game so that it now appeals to me! I want to be your target market, tell that other, smaller target group with less money that you originally targeted to go pound sand" gamer comes into play.
I think a big problem, is the core demographic has gotten older. A lot of the players who were into the first wave of MMOs like myself were in high school at the time. I had all the time in the world to sit there for hours camping a spawn or doing a raid. Now people like myself and others are just older, we miss that experience but we just can't sit around for hours anymore. The current high school aged demographic is more into the FPS style of action and "pwnage".
Overall I do think that MMOs have gone backwards. Some of the systems in games like Meridian 59 and Ultima Online seem revolutionary compared to what current MMOs offer. Shouldn't non instanced housing be something more advanced than all instanced everything?
They are taking the Massive and the RPG out of MMORPG we're just playing Multiplayer Online Games now.
It's not that i don't have the time anymore. I could still make it through the grind and raid 3-4 times a week timewise.
So no, growing older hasn't changed my amount of time for gaming. It's that i don't want to dedicate my time for grind and raid (=mostly guild drama) anymore. Rather take my dog and roam the woods or such.
Give me a mmorpg that is not "everything lobby game gear grind" and with it's focus put on an immersive, massive world and i will at once sit at my pc until late night like i did 7 years ago.
It's not that i don't have the time anymore. I could still make it through the grind and raid 3-4 times a week timewise.
So no, growing older hasn't changed my amount of time for gaming. It's that i don't want to dedicate my time for grind and raid (=mostly guild drama) anymore. Rather take my dog and roam the woods or such.
Give me a mmorpg that is not "everything lobby game gear grind" and with it's focus put on an immersive, massive world and i will at once sit at my pc until late night like i did 7 years ago.
I've only used the "not enough time" excuse when somebody tells me you should lose all your loot + a weeks worth of EXP when you die. I can play slow paced games, I just don't have the time to back track because my internet went down during a boss battle.
I hadv to laugh at a conversation I overheard in Guild chat today in EQ2. Couple of folks were talking about how some end games took them "forever" last evening. 1st said he was in a raid for almost an hour and the other one-upped him by saying his went for a full 2 hours and was an agony. I almost made the mistake of mocking them but decided to shrug it off and accept that today's players just aren't wired the same as some of us from an earlier era.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hadv to laugh at a conversation I overheard in Guild chat today in EQ2. Couple of folks were talking about how some end games took them "forever" last evening. 1st said he was in a raid for almost an hour and the other one-upped him by saying his went for a full 2 hours and was an agony.
I almost made the mistake of mocking them but decided to shrug it off and accept that today's players just aren't wired the same as some of us from an earlier era.
That's because it's now the instant gratification/self entitlement "look at me!" era of gamers that are the majority sadly. That is why in today's batch of "supposed" MMO's you can cap in a month or less, they are full of stat boards and achievements and why all the gameplay is easy cookie cutter garbage.
That was the beauty of a sandbox like SWG. You could play for 6 hours straight or you could play 1 hour a day for 6 days. Both methods got you where you wanted eventually.
I don't get why people call sandbox games grindfests. They are only grindfests if you absolutely have to reach cap within weeks. or before your friends. It took me months to reach Master Rifles, could I have done it sooner? Absolutely but I was too busy having fun.
As a wise NPC told me in a game: "Hello my friend why are you in such a hurry? Slow down a bit and enjoy the day"
This sums it up for me as well... especially the "time management" aspect of it.
As far as the "not enough time" argument being used for raid content only... Wow.. that's not been experience at all, on these forums or elsewhere. I'm noticing that "I have a job and a wife and can't spend hours every night on a game anymore like I used to" applied to everything from leveling speed, to getting certain gear, to completing content, to raiding. It's becoming something of a "catch-all" statement for people who basically want everything to come easier and faster than it is.
Here's the thing... It comes back to expectations. When you read people's complaints/arguments in this context, you begin to see the bigger picture emerge... Basically, they want to make the kind of progress they used to make when they had 6 hours a night to play... but they want to be able to make it with only 1 hour a night to play... hence, you'll see people state that "MMOs have to change to suit my busy schedule".
There's also a degree of jealousy in there; of worrying about "what the other guy has" or "how far the other guy is". How many times do we see people state "It's not fair that someone with more time to play can get farther than I can, so they need to adjust the game to make it more fair for people who have less time". How is that unfair? You're playing your game. They're playing theirs. You have your experiences. They have theirs. You make your progress. They make theirs. That there are people who can only value their gameplay experience in terms of how it compares to others' is a seriously self-defeating attitude, I think. They can't enjoy or appreciate something they achieve or acquire in a game because "someone else did it faster". That's pretty sad to me.
Further, the idea that any individual should believe that because *they* have taken on new responsibility in their lives and *they* don't have the time they used to have anymore, that the entire industry should change to cater to *them* is so incredibly and blatantly ego-centric and out-of-touch, I can't even believe people think this way... nevermind the number of people who actually do.
Part of being a responsible person is to realize that, sometimes you just don't have the time to do something you'd really like to. If I want to play a round of golf against a friend, but don't have enough time for 18 holes, that's not a sign that "golf needs to reduce the game down to 9 holes because I don't have time for 18". If I want to play a game of baseball with some friends, but don't have time for a full game, that doesn't mean the game should be reduced down to half the innings. In both scenarios, it means I have to say "Well, I'd like to do that, but I just don't have the time today to do it. I'll do something else that I do have time for instead, and leave that for when I have a few extra hours. Perhaps I'll take care of some things earlier than usual so I have that time freed up next time...".
It's not the game developer's responsibility to keep tabs on all their players, and adjust the game when they find "Oh, John Smith just got married, he's not going to have as much time to play anymore.. We better adjust the game's pacing to cater to his new circumstances...". No. John Smith needs to re-evaluate his situation and decide how much time he has to dedicate to gaming, and adapt his expectations to that reduced time. That's reasonable. That's rational.
People - those with that "I'm special" mentality - have to get over this idea that their lives and circumstances make them entitled to special treatment.
TL;DR I feel the whole "I don't have enough time!" argument comes from a combination of impatience, a sense of entitlement and an unwillingness to adapt or compromise one's choice of entertainment with the time they have to engage in it. These people want their cake, and eat it, too.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have heard this argument used over and over through out various topics in these and other forums. But is this comment really a vaild statement.
When did MMO's become a game that you can only play for weeks instead of years. When did MMO's become a game that you have to get to cap as fast as you can? Is that What this genre of gaming becoming?
I always believed that MMORPG are a genre of gaming that you will spend months to understand and explore, and years to master , and that the game starts as soon as you log in, not till you reach cap and the rest are just fillers.
These posts of " how long will it take to reach cap" , " can I level per hour sessions " ...etc are pissing me off, and making me believe that these games are now games that you can play for a few months then forget about, instead of games that you can get attached to.
"I don't have enough time anymore" whats really keeping those times, an hour of gaming is still an hour of gaming, it has nothing to do with your new life as parents, an hour is still an hour if thats all you have, is your time now relates on how fast you level, how much exp you gain, how much loot you get, or is it how much did you explore, how many new friends you just made, and what challenges you have just overcome.
IS leveling really that important, is there anyone else that find this statement of "not enough time" annoying because I understand where they are coming from, but what can games change so that this mentality can change... So that the gaming world can benefit from it. And i am not saying to create time sinks, just alternatives ideas that can change this mentality
Im still very old skool hardcore gamer, i dont mind how fast i go and take my time.
But this attitude towards MMO'S mainly started after 2004/5 and it even get worse every year after:(
I have never seen those comments in contrast to levelling speed. I have only seen them being used both by myself and others when it comes to being a casual gamer vs somebody who can keep a raid schedule
Pretty much this.
Really only comes into play when you are looking at content that requires hours of time, or when it comes to rewards that requires a lot of repetition and hours upon hours of time to complete.
That is what MMO's are....or were anyways. It is what seperated them from console gaming. If people want quick gratification, that is what console games are made for. I have seen that comment TONS on these and other forums...and wasted my breath saying what I just did here...because new gamers just don't get it.
There for...the genre is fading away into glorified console RPG's full of community killing instancingfests, microtransaction and cash shop ridden games that gimp you to force you to buy, and extremely boring gameplay that is easy enough for any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient to complete in a month or less. I also don't know why the term, or game mechanic of "end game" exists in MMORPG's at all. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey, NOT the destination.
Yeh i agree with what your saying here its a nightmare for me seeing old skool completely vanish into oblivion:(
Im still like i was 12 years ago not have changed much but almost all gamers around me old and new gave into what your discribing here.
I think it just comes down to how long it takes to gain progress. Personally, I don't play very many mmo's for a similar reason, although I have others too. I can't stand not making any actual progress. The not having enough time thing just comes down to that and whether or not you have someone to keep up with. If you know somebody, and you play with them cool. Meet them on the internet (Not a bright idea in some ways anyway.) and you're screwed over. I think this could be solved if MMO's were more focused on exploration, instead of just doing quests for random people and just killing stuff for sluggish progress.
In Darkfall you dont need to worry about progress you can have fun on day one. Problem is 95% of players these days don't know how to play games anymore and how to have fun, only thing they know these days is, how to cheat and whine:(
It's because most people playing mmo's just want instant gratification because they hate slow progress. If things take too long to get interesting most people will say "I hate this! It's so slow! This blows!" and either quit or cheat. Again, this makes me wish games were more focused on exploration or possibly finding stuff.
Comments
May I add to that?
...in other words...i´m sick of raiding....ad nauseum, at very specific times for a piece of carrot that'll get replaced very soon.
Agreed. I see the comment in relationship to time required per session or amount of times something has to be repeated, as well. Luc, your confusion regarding the quoted comment is rooted in your misunderstanding of the reason for the quoted comment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If that's what you want to beleive, that's fine. A lot of people have had that beat into their heads by the repeated EQ style gameplay.
However, not every MMO is a torturous graphical variant of DikuMUD. In UO, AC and several of the other early MMOs you could easily jump in, recall to a social hub or hunting ground, and get something accomplished in a fifteen minute to half hour or so gaming session if you wanted.
So to say that's what MMOs are or were is false. There's more to MMOs than EQ and WoW, goat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't mean to say niche games will be completely purged (although I often point out the inherent futility of wanting a niche game which is also a massively-multiplayer game, which is also AAA-quality.)
But the market as a whole experiences a form of natural evolution. Companies producing broad games can afford large budgets and still thrive. Companies producing niche games can't, and will die if they attempt to spend large budgets.
Companies which make expensive niche games automatically disappear from the market.
And to bring it full circle in case it isn't clear: games with reasonable play session length are less niche. (And for what it's worth they can be just as deep, meaningful, immersive, and fun as anything you can do in an ultra-long play session. There are really few quantifiable benefits to activities which last longer than an hour; even for the niche people who want that.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I can't speak for every game, but I remember exactly how much time I wasted playing the original Everquest. Now that I'm a full time college student, I don't see how it's healthy for any productive individual (be it college student or member of the workforce) to spend that much time in front a video game. Community building and immersion are all great, but lets not lose perspective. Your fake life in a virtual world is meaningless compared to your life in the real world.
People say WoW is so easy because it takes like a week to hit the max level, but if you'd log in and play for just a couple hours a day every day, you probably wouldn't even be halfway to 85 in a week's time. The people that say it takes only a week to hit the cap are the people that spend about twelve hours a day logged into a video game running through the quests over and over until their eyes bleed.
I don't think any perspective is lost. You personally may not be able to be productive and game that much but I know that there are a ton of folks that are. I took a 15 hour course load and did it. I worked a 40+ hour/week job for years and did it. I have a 1 month old now (though I do not work anymore, wife spoils me), am a stay at home dad that keeps house and yard, an adult leader for Boy Scouts of America and I'm sure I'll do it when I play TOR.
WHat I see most people complaining about is that they don't want to commit that amount of time for this hobby and still not be able to go out and drink and party and do that social stuff. Well, I don't do those things, so I really don't feel any sympathy for them. They just need to pick how they want to spend their free time. I spend mine on the internet playing games. And, like I said, I'm pretty sure I'm healthy and productive.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Let me guess. If you had your way, we'd all have limits placed on our gaming like China, too.
But wait, it's unhealthy to be in front of the computer long hours? Well then, might as well get rid of video games altogether, since obviously the devs are spending unhealthy amounts in front of their computer every day.
Wait, have to get rid of operating sytems becuase the guys at Apple and Microsoft spend way too much time in front of their computers all day.
Wait, might as well not have any software period, as software developers spend hours in front of computers every day.
Wait, better get rid of computers, because there nothing left to run on them.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I understand that Players in the Everquest and Ultima days has grown up and have other activities and responsibilities that they need to spend their precious time on. But what i don't understand is when this quoted " I don't have enough time anymore " is translated to how long will this game take to reach cap level.
I believe fully that An MMO is supposed to be endless, there should never be a cap, there should be episodic patches and expansions that expands the world. New challenges from these new worlds , new zones and new regions. New Wars new battles.
Players shouldn't have to have an cap waiting for them. Time should be on our terms, If i play an hour, I should be playing for an hour, If i wanted to play 12 hours straight , i should be playing 12 hours straight.
But lately I have been reading comments that 1 hour gamers wanted to get the same growth as the 12 hour gamer, and that is just rediculous.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
It's because MMOs are all about content now, not systems.
Content is finite, it has a begin and an end.
Systems are infinite.
System based game play is immortal.
Content based game play is mortal, and the shelf life gets shorter as gamers get more dedicated, smarter, and more efficient.
I think people are misunderstanding. I don't know anyone who wants to reach level cap in no time. What I do know people want, is that they want their 12 one hour sessions to net them as much reward as someone elses one 12 hour session. Do you see the difference?
Now the problem is that the old games often made any reward require at least 4 hours of investment (spawn camping and similar time sinks) and as people have grown up or on, they've said - I don't want that experience. Some of the newer games, and I'm going to blame WoW here, have gone in the direction of, the only real reward is the lvl or gear treadmill, so that is all there really is to the game is leveling in one form or another. It doesn't have to be this way, in fact Vanguard in its current iteration offers a game where gamers can hope in and accomplish something in a short period of time, while it still divides most of the "end game" rewards into time consuming chuncks, most of the game can be devoured in smaller bites.
Right now people are conflating casual friendly games with end game heavy games, which does not have to be the case, just because it happens to be the norm.
I used to go to work but I don’t have enough time anymore what with a family and everything. At most I can spend one or two hours a day at work and I like to feel I have got something done in that time, feel that it was worthwhile.
I do my dailies, check my emails and pass my in tray onto my colleges, but by then I have to be heading home. What really gets my goat is when some guild guy who has put in a full day complains I am on the same benefits as he is! It’s my gamer rights which are at stake here, I have the same right to everything he does.
Have to go…can just about squeeze an hour in game before CSI.
Two responses here:
#1: People who 'don't have time' usually mean that they aren't having fun or have changed priorities. People will make time for what they truly want to do.
#2: People who don't have time usually refer to the fact that they feel helplessly behind those who play more. They see minimal progression in the time they play, so what's the use if they can't keep up with others. They are at a constant disadvantage in PvP and progression.
Agreed.
A good chunk of players nowadays either dont want to make time (cant miss my jersey shore!), or changed their life so that time is now limited. But they still want rewards for doing in 1 hour that someone else spent 4 hours on. Its turning into a cluster fk of haves and have-nots.
and for #2, thats where your, "I dont like that, change the game so that it now appeals to me! I want to be your target market, tell that other, smaller target group with less money that you originally targeted to go pound sand" gamer comes into play.
I think a big problem, is the core demographic has gotten older. A lot of the players who were into the first wave of MMOs like myself were in high school at the time. I had all the time in the world to sit there for hours camping a spawn or doing a raid. Now people like myself and others are just older, we miss that experience but we just can't sit around for hours anymore. The current high school aged demographic is more into the FPS style of action and "pwnage".
Overall I do think that MMOs have gone backwards. Some of the systems in games like Meridian 59 and Ultima Online seem revolutionary compared to what current MMOs offer. Shouldn't non instanced housing be something more advanced than all instanced everything?
They are taking the Massive and the RPG out of MMORPG we're just playing Multiplayer Online Games now.
It's not that i don't have the time anymore. I could still make it through the grind and raid 3-4 times a week timewise.
So no, growing older hasn't changed my amount of time for gaming. It's that i don't want to dedicate my time for grind and raid (=mostly guild drama) anymore. Rather take my dog and roam the woods or such.
Give me a mmorpg that is not "everything lobby game gear grind" and with it's focus put on an immersive, massive world and i will at once sit at my pc until late night like i did 7 years ago.
Sounds like you're better off actually!
I've only used the "not enough time" excuse when somebody tells me you should lose all your loot + a weeks worth of EXP when you die. I can play slow paced games, I just don't have the time to back track because my internet went down during a boss battle.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's because it's now the instant gratification/self entitlement "look at me!" era of gamers that are the majority sadly. That is why in today's batch of "supposed" MMO's you can cap in a month or less, they are full of stat boards and achievements and why all the gameplay is easy cookie cutter garbage.
This sums it up for me as well... especially the "time management" aspect of it.
As far as the "not enough time" argument being used for raid content only... Wow.. that's not been experience at all, on these forums or elsewhere. I'm noticing that "I have a job and a wife and can't spend hours every night on a game anymore like I used to" applied to everything from leveling speed, to getting certain gear, to completing content, to raiding. It's becoming something of a "catch-all" statement for people who basically want everything to come easier and faster than it is.
Here's the thing... It comes back to expectations. When you read people's complaints/arguments in this context, you begin to see the bigger picture emerge... Basically, they want to make the kind of progress they used to make when they had 6 hours a night to play... but they want to be able to make it with only 1 hour a night to play... hence, you'll see people state that "MMOs have to change to suit my busy schedule".
There's also a degree of jealousy in there; of worrying about "what the other guy has" or "how far the other guy is". How many times do we see people state "It's not fair that someone with more time to play can get farther than I can, so they need to adjust the game to make it more fair for people who have less time". How is that unfair? You're playing your game. They're playing theirs. You have your experiences. They have theirs. You make your progress. They make theirs. That there are people who can only value their gameplay experience in terms of how it compares to others' is a seriously self-defeating attitude, I think. They can't enjoy or appreciate something they achieve or acquire in a game because "someone else did it faster". That's pretty sad to me.
Further, the idea that any individual should believe that because *they* have taken on new responsibility in their lives and *they* don't have the time they used to have anymore, that the entire industry should change to cater to *them* is so incredibly and blatantly ego-centric and out-of-touch, I can't even believe people think this way... nevermind the number of people who actually do.
Part of being a responsible person is to realize that, sometimes you just don't have the time to do something you'd really like to. If I want to play a round of golf against a friend, but don't have enough time for 18 holes, that's not a sign that "golf needs to reduce the game down to 9 holes because I don't have time for 18". If I want to play a game of baseball with some friends, but don't have time for a full game, that doesn't mean the game should be reduced down to half the innings. In both scenarios, it means I have to say "Well, I'd like to do that, but I just don't have the time today to do it. I'll do something else that I do have time for instead, and leave that for when I have a few extra hours. Perhaps I'll take care of some things earlier than usual so I have that time freed up next time...".
It's not the game developer's responsibility to keep tabs on all their players, and adjust the game when they find "Oh, John Smith just got married, he's not going to have as much time to play anymore.. We better adjust the game's pacing to cater to his new circumstances...". No. John Smith needs to re-evaluate his situation and decide how much time he has to dedicate to gaming, and adapt his expectations to that reduced time. That's reasonable. That's rational.
People - those with that "I'm special" mentality - have to get over this idea that their lives and circumstances make them entitled to special treatment.
TL;DR I feel the whole "I don't have enough time!" argument comes from a combination of impatience, a sense of entitlement and an unwillingness to adapt or compromise one's choice of entertainment with the time they have to engage in it. These people want their cake, and eat it, too.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Im still very old skool hardcore gamer, i dont mind how fast i go and take my time.
But this attitude towards MMO'S mainly started after 2004/5 and it even get worse every year after:(
Yeh i agree with what your saying here its a nightmare for me seeing old skool completely vanish into oblivion:(
Im still like i was 12 years ago not have changed much but almost all gamers around me old and new gave into what your discribing here.
And WoW was the main catalyst for this desaster:(
I think it just comes down to how long it takes to gain progress. Personally, I don't play very many mmo's for a similar reason, although I have others too. I can't stand not making any actual progress. The not having enough time thing just comes down to that and whether or not you have someone to keep up with. If you know somebody, and you play with them cool. Meet them on the internet (Not a bright idea in some ways anyway.) and you're screwed over. I think this could be solved if MMO's were more focused on exploration, instead of just doing quests for random people and just killing stuff for sluggish progress.
In Darkfall you dont need to worry about progress you can have fun on day one. Problem is 95% of players these days don't know how to play games anymore and how to have fun, only thing they know these days is, how to cheat and whine:(
It's because most people playing mmo's just want instant gratification because they hate slow progress. If things take too long to get interesting most people will say "I hate this! It's so slow! This blows!" and either quit or cheat. Again, this makes me wish games were more focused on exploration or possibly finding stuff.