Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven.
This.
The last 5+ years of mmo slump have proven EXACTLY the opposite of what Bioware and all the other smartass suits have been saying. The message is: "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW." It's been proven empirically 100%. Jeez.... How many billions of dollars you have to burn before you finally admit the facts? Or is it just "Oh, we just need a bigger hammer." game?
I'm not convinced that's a good argument. As a matter of fact there's quite a bit of specious reasoning there. People aren't thinking.
Did these games fail because they were "wow clones"? Or did they fail because they were released buggy, not having enough content to support the players throughout the leveling process, not having enough to do once a player reached the top levels, not fulfilling their marketing promises?
I think the latter. Many people purchased Warhammer, Conana, Rift, you name it. So the argument that they failed because of being wow clones (which to be honest is incorrect and another topic all together) doesn't hold water.
The type of game play that WoW and other games have embraced is not an issue except for those who dont' like that type of game play.
I would say that a developement studio might try to break the mold and not follow in those foot steps simply because a game has to compete with the juggernaut that is wow if it's going to be successful. But being a game that utilized the same mechanics as WoW is not automatic "fail".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven.
This.
The last 5+ years of mmo slump have proven EXACTLY the opposite of what Bioware and all the other smartass suits have been saying. The message is: "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW." It's been proven empirically 100%. Jeez.... How many billions of dollars you have to burn before you finally admit the facts? Or is it just "Oh, we just need a bigger hammer." game?
What are the most successful MMOs since WoW's launch?
Here's my feeling on WoW and WoW clones or whatever you want to call them.
I played WoW for maybe a year off and on and I really enjoyed it, but unsurprisingly the experience got old after a while. Whenever a new game comes out that is very similar to WoW like Rift or Aion, I will usually enjoy it for about a month, but then I start getting annoyed at things.
Why is there only one city?
Why is the auction house interface so much worse than WoW?
Why isn't there a legion of third party UI addons to make my experience better?
Why aren't there more zones for me to explore in each level range?
etc. etc.
Basically, I start to realize that the game is delivering the same experience as WoW but is missing tons of the content that WoW offers. At this point, I typically quit the WoW-like game and may even resub WoW just because WoW delivers the WoW experience better than any other game. So it's kind of crazy because the leading cause of me resubbing WoW is playing a WoW-like game .
If instead of trying to emulate WoW, a new game focused on NEW and innovative features, I would be more forgiving that it is "missing" some of the things I am accustomed to with WoW. After all, the new game would offer a lot of things that WoW just does not.
The way I see it, a game has to find its niche in the market to be successful. The WoW niche is currently occupied by WoW and it ain't moving.
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven.
This.
The last 5+ years of mmo slump have proven EXACTLY the opposite of what Bioware and all the other smartass suits have been saying. The message is: "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW." It's been proven empirically 100%. Jeez.... How many billions of dollars you have to burn before you finally admit the facts? Or is it just "Oh, we just need a bigger hammer." game?
I'm not convinced that's a good argument. As a matter of fact there's quite a bit of specious reasoning there. People aren't thinking.
Did these games fail because they were "wow clones"? Or did they fail because they were released buggy, not having enough content to support the players throughout the leveling process, not having enough to do once a player reached the top levels, not fulfilling their marketing promises?
I think the latter. Many people purchased Warhammer, Conana, Rift, you name it. So the argument that they failed because of being wow clones (which to be honest is incorrect and another topic all together) doesn't hold water.
The type of game play that WoW and other games have embraced is not an issue except for those who dont' like that type of game play.
I would say that a developement studio might try to break the mold and not follow in those foot steps simply because a game has to compete with the juggernaut that is wow if it's going to be successful. But being a game that utilized the same mechanics as WoW is not automatic "fail".
Rift is one point.... EVE is another.
I won't go into specifics, and I've been studying game theory and crap, but the so called WoW/EQ formula is flawed on so many levels which I don't want to go into now... A good starting point for a discussion would be why WAR failed. In my opinion the cause for it's failure was that it tried to follow WoW's formula too closely -even more that WoW itself lol. The linear questing and story, the disdain for PvP.. Jeez can you imagine how much totally useless and pointless PvE WAR has? 80%+ of its laying area/content is total ghostland. If they removed 3/4 of the game content that game would have been actually better than it was? And the 2-faction craparola that actually buried in the long run (something they cant ever fix?) WAR is a good example to study. Just look at LoL. 1/100 of the budget and a profitable game. Imagine WAR, withit's fantastic IP and all the effort put into it built on a different concept, something like LOL, or if you want to be brave, EVE or even Firefall which is touted by the devs as "not a game but a service"... Jeez "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW."
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
FFXI was not a failure..I think you meant FFXIV, which was an absolute failure!
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
Though I don't agree with all of your assessments (Aion wasn't buggy compared to many games, though it did have a few issues where and there with bugs, I wouldn't call it buggy) you are essentially in the right.
This is the better way of thinking in my opinion.
Thank you Bad Spock.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
FFXI was not a failure..I think you meant FFXIV, which was an absolute failure!
Reread :P at the top he said FFXI was not a failure then he said FFxIV was.
Great post though Badspock, excellent observations.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
Rift - most successful of them all, maybe because there was a long time after a more or less polished MMO. Don't see it surviving as a p2p game after TOR/GW2
So let's talk about success stories now...
I think he's more or less saying the games that really failed over the last few years, did so more due to issues outside of feature lists.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
Rift - most successful of them all, maybe because there was a long time after a more or less polished MMO. Don't see it surviving as a p2p game after TOR/GW2
So let's talk about success stories now...
Except DDO is not a "wow clone". It wasn't successful becauseit wasn't what Dungeons and Dragons players wanted in a "dungeons and dragons" mmo. They didn't like the setting, they wanted a more open world, they didn't want to grind dungeons and espeically dungeons that all stemmed off of once city. So those are some of the main reasons why it wasn't sucessful despite "not" being a wow clone.
Lotro did not go f2p because it wasn't doing well. It was doing as well as any successful MMO if you took WoW numbers out of the equation. It went f2p because they sawa huge jump in revenue when DDO went f2p and thought they could apply the same business model to LOTRO. As a matter of fact, not only did they see an increase in DDO revenue but there was actually an increase in subscriptions. Same happened to LOTRO.
Rift is still new as compared to other games so it still has some time to go. It had a very sucessful launch.
People need to step back and stop looking at millions of subs as being the only bar for success. Take wow out of the equation and some asian mmo's that have many players beause of the business model they use over there and it seems that a successful western mmo has a few hundred thousand.
Of course, one could be even smarter about it and ponit out that any mmo that can pay its bills, give players a good experience and add content on a regular basis is successful. Regardless of sub numbers.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
Slight correction.... CoH was released a few months before WoW. CoV was added quite a bit after the WoW release though.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
First I'd say Vanguard is something different than WOW, as is AOC, but anyway. I don't understand your point, just because those games offer similar features doesn't mean that you can't dislike those games, yet enjoy TOR.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
Oh it'll please plenty. Those that love Mass Effect style conversations and story options will find it there. And for the masses wanting their Star Wars fix. If you like the idea of having some NPC follow you around and help you fight thats a plus.
Not sure if Swtor is really doing anything different other than that. For a lot of people thats more than enough. Im not one of them but I cant begrudge them for it.
Theoritically lets say World of Warcraft somehow came out with an expansion or a mod that suddenly turned WoW into Star Wars. Two different versions. One is regular WoW, the other is full of ships and lightsabers etc. Totally Star Wars themed. Which do you think the players would spend more time on? Everyone, at least for awhile, would go Star Wars crazy. And this is really what its all about.
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
nah, you can't guarantee something like that.
They are all different games. if they were the same I would just be playing WoW and be done with it.
Why wouldn't I play an extremely polished game with a huge community that has large yearly events where the community can get together and talk about "the game" and the game is backed by a lot of funding?
But I don't play WoW, can't get beyond a character in the 30's that I made the day the game was launched.
SWToR's game mechanics don't bother me one bit and I like the changes they are making to the genre. Or better said their take on an mmo.
Others might feel the same way.
Not everyone requires earth shattering paradigm shifts in their game play in order to enjoy a game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
FFXI was not a failure..I think you meant FFXIV, which was an absolute failure!
Reread :P at the top he said FFXI was not a failure then he said FFxIV was.
Great post though Badspock, excellent observations.
You caught me. I breezed it over. Thanks for the heads up.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
nah, you can't guarantee something like that.
They are all different games. if they were the same I would just be playing WoW and be done with it.
Why wouldn't I play an extremely polished game with a huge community that has large yearly events where the community can get together and talk about "the game" and the game is backed by a lot of funding?
But I don't play WoW, can't get beyond a character in the 30's that I made the day the game was launched.
SWToR's game mechanics don't bother me one bit and I like the changes they are making to the genre. Or better said their take on an mmo.
Others might feel the same way.
Not everyone requires earth shattering paradigm shifts in their game play in order to enjoy a game.
Clearly, they are different. I said similar. No where did I say they were carbon copies of WoW.
By your response, you're indicating you do play one of those games(or enjoy at least one). Therefore, you may enjoy SWTOR. I claimed if you don't enjoy one of those listed games you won't enjoy SWTOR, either.
I've folowed MMOs from MUDs onward man. I've seen games get hyped up and fall. I've been wrong with my predictions too many times I care to mention but each mistake gave me more experience (something the classical grinders will care to apreciate). I'll tell you one thing. The time has passed, 10 years too late but it did pass... SWTOR's basic concept is archaic. It was archaic at the time of WoW but that game carried through by the simple fact that it was the first mmo that had actual basic gameplay that would appeal to wide audience (talking about client stability and ai). SWTOR can be polished to kingdom come and have the greatest story ever.. but it's a dud. It's like making a 100 mil $ Ginger and Fred top hats musical in the 60's . It will get its money back through hype sales but that's pretty much it. A dinosaur.
I've been playing MMO's for 10+ years too, and in that time I've hardly ever been wrong in my expectations of the games I played, I also never have been hugely disappointed or shocked or surprised, only in a positive sense. So...
Looking at things objectively, I dispute the whole hilarious belief that all MMO gamers have grown sick, burnt out or fed up with all the core mechanics that made up the MMO genre and gameplay. I mean, do you see people that have grown tired of using the same base mechanics in shooters that made up that genre for the past 10-15 years?
Or that if I play a CoD game, that when I play the newest MW game that after 10 years it still feels the same for the largest part as those early CoD games?
No, you don't see people do that, and that's why you forget a very simple basic human thing: people like something new, but they also like things that are familiar and the same, they like that maybe even more. That's why you see people that like potatoes or spaghetti, not ask for some completely different cuisine every few months, gotten completely sick of spaghetti or how potatoes, or why someone not suddenly throws away his Heineken beer because after drinking it for a few years he's gotten completely sick and bored with it.
So, everyone who's clamoring for something new or innovative because they've gotten themselves burnt out on certain gameplay aspects forgot this basic thing.
The prime rule isn't innovation, it's having fun: as long as people are having fun and enjoying themselves, they'll keep playing a game.
And apparently those people who can't enjoy themselves anymore in some games, have forgotten that for many years people have been having fun and sticking in their themepark MMO's for months to years longer than when reached level cap and done the quest content.
Originally posted by Corehaven
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
What if you really, really don't need another fantasy game?
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
I said nothing about themepark. I think the best possible design might be a mix of theme park and sandbox. But sandbox alone? What kinda game is that? Is that even....a game at that point? Im unsure. Im not anti theme park.
And no it doesnt mean they wont deliver an mmo thats good quality, fun to play, and with its own distinctive game play. But its the game play Im mostly talking about. It LOOKS like WoW with light sabers. Looks....not necessarily plays. Im still on the fence. But they're plainly not pushing any of the mechanics into new frontiers is all Im saying. What Im saying is its possible they didnt have too. And they knew it.
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
I said nothing about themepark. I think the best possible design might be a mix of theme park and sandbox. But sandbox alone? What kinda game is that? Is that even....a game at that point? Im unsure. Im not anti theme park.
And no it doesnt mean they wont deliver an mmo thats good quality, fun to play, and with its own distinctive game play. But its the game play Im mostly talking about. It LOOKS like WoW with light sabers. Looks....not necessarily plays. Im still on the fence. But they're plainly not pushing any of the mechanics into new frontiers is all Im saying. What Im saying is its possible they didnt have too. And they knew it.
I don't understand this. It doesn't look anything like WoW to me. No more than it looks like EQ. That is to say, it is built upon themepark MMO staples. It's like saying hey that sports car looks like a sports car! This "it looks like WoW statement" is far overused and generally says nothing about what we're looking at.
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
I said nothing about themepark. I think the best possible design might be a mix of theme park and sandbox. But sandbox alone? What kinda game is that? Is that even....a game at that point? Im unsure. Im not anti theme park.
And no it doesnt mean they wont deliver an mmo thats good quality, fun to play, and with its own distinctive game play. But its the game play Im mostly talking about. It LOOKS like WoW with light sabers. Looks....not necessarily plays. Im still on the fence. But they're plainly not pushing any of the mechanics into new frontiers is all Im saying. What Im saying is its possible they didnt have too. And they knew it.
I really can't disagree with what you say about them not pushing the boundaries and as you say them not having to and I'm 100 percent behind them.
I recall hearing about SWG from some fanbois working at the local EB and them explaining to me how SOE was trying to be different and innovative and we see now how that worked for them, not to say the original SWG wasn't a good game (I loved it for the better part of a year) but it never drew the kind of crowd demanded of it and led to the eventual death of the game with all kinds of trip ups along the way.
I've seen so many games come and go on the strength of being innovative and different and when they fail they aren't cut much slack if any.
I can give credit to a company for trying and succeeding at being different but I sure won't hold it against someone for sticking to what they know will work if they can do it right too.
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
I said nothing about themepark. I think the best possible design might be a mix of theme park and sandbox. But sandbox alone? What kinda game is that? Is that even....a game at that point? Im unsure. Im not anti theme park.
And no it doesnt mean they wont deliver an mmo thats good quality, fun to play, and with its own distinctive game play. But its the game play Im mostly talking about. It LOOKS like WoW with light sabers. Looks....not necessarily plays. Im still on the fence. But they're plainly not pushing any of the mechanics into new frontiers is all Im saying. What Im saying is its possible they didnt have too. And they knew it.
I don't understand this. It doesn't look anything like WoW to me. No more than it looks like EQ. That is to say, it is built upon themepark MMO staples. It's like saying hey that sports car looks like a sports car! This "it looks like WoW statement" is far overused and generally says nothing about what we're looking at.
I actually thought it looked just like the free to play game Allods. Which is always called a WOW clone.
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I'm not convinced that's a good argument. As a matter of fact there's quite a bit of specious reasoning there. People aren't thinking.
Did these games fail because they were "wow clones"? Or did they fail because they were released buggy, not having enough content to support the players throughout the leveling process, not having enough to do once a player reached the top levels, not fulfilling their marketing promises?
I think the latter. Many people purchased Warhammer, Conana, Rift, you name it. So the argument that they failed because of being wow clones (which to be honest is incorrect and another topic all together) doesn't hold water.
The type of game play that WoW and other games have embraced is not an issue except for those who dont' like that type of game play.
I would say that a developement studio might try to break the mold and not follow in those foot steps simply because a game has to compete with the juggernaut that is wow if it's going to be successful. But being a game that utilized the same mechanics as WoW is not automatic "fail".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What are the most successful MMOs since WoW's launch?
Here's my feeling on WoW and WoW clones or whatever you want to call them.
I played WoW for maybe a year off and on and I really enjoyed it, but unsurprisingly the experience got old after a while. Whenever a new game comes out that is very similar to WoW like Rift or Aion, I will usually enjoy it for about a month, but then I start getting annoyed at things.
Why is there only one city?
Why is the auction house interface so much worse than WoW?
Why isn't there a legion of third party UI addons to make my experience better?
Why aren't there more zones for me to explore in each level range?
etc. etc.
Basically, I start to realize that the game is delivering the same experience as WoW but is missing tons of the content that WoW offers. At this point, I typically quit the WoW-like game and may even resub WoW just because WoW delivers the WoW experience better than any other game. So it's kind of crazy because the leading cause of me resubbing WoW is playing a WoW-like game
.
If instead of trying to emulate WoW, a new game focused on NEW and innovative features, I would be more forgiving that it is "missing" some of the things I am accustomed to with WoW. After all, the new game would offer a lot of things that WoW just does not.
The way I see it, a game has to find its niche in the market to be successful. The WoW niche is currently occupied by WoW and it ain't moving.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
So, let's see... excluding the sandbox games, all but FFXI and EvE being complete failures -
Supposed "WoW clones" that failed on release and why -
WAR - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
AOC - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
Aion - buggy, incomplete, missings tons of features/content, level too slow/too grindy, zero worth while end game, zerg fest.
STO - buggy, incomplete, missing tons of features/content, level too fast zero end game, nothing worked right.
CO - actually not too bad just an extreme lack of content.
FFXIV - joke of a product, should have been in development for another year or two minimum.
Successful post-WoW MMOs and why -
CoH / CoV - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running success.
Guild Wars - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a long-running sucess.
Rift - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, tons of content, supportive devs, not a huge game but a success that is poised to keep growing and going strong.
LOTRO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
DDO - fun/unique game play, tons of customization, great story, beloved IP, supportive devs, not a huge game but with the right business model a financial and critical success loved by its players.
You figure it out.
I'd say that LOTRO and Rift are probably the closest things to WoW out there - and probably the most successful.
Also, CoH came out before WoW.
/pedantry
Rift is one point.... EVE is another.
I won't go into specifics, and I've been studying game theory and crap, but the so called WoW/EQ formula is flawed on so many levels which I don't want to go into now... A good starting point for a discussion would be why WAR failed. In my opinion the cause for it's failure was that it tried to follow WoW's formula too closely -even more that WoW itself lol. The linear questing and story, the disdain for PvP.. Jeez can you imagine how much totally useless and pointless PvE WAR has? 80%+ of its laying area/content is total ghostland. If they removed 3/4 of the game content that game would have been actually better than it was? And the 2-faction craparola that actually buried in the long run (something they cant ever fix?) WAR is a good example to study. Just look at LoL. 1/100 of the budget and a profitable game. Imagine WAR, withit's fantastic IP and all the effort put into it built on a different concept, something like LOL, or if you want to be brave, EVE or even Firefall which is touted by the devs as "not a game but a service"... Jeez "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW."
FFXI was not a failure..I think you meant FFXIV, which was an absolute failure!
Though I don't agree with all of your assessments (Aion wasn't buggy compared to many games, though it did have a few issues where and there with bugs, I wouldn't call it buggy) you are essentially in the right.
This is the better way of thinking in my opinion.
Thank you Bad Spock.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Reread :P at the top he said FFXI was not a failure then he said FFxIV was.
Great post though Badspock, excellent observations.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I think he's more or less saying the games that really failed over the last few years, did so more due to issues outside of feature lists.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Except DDO is not a "wow clone". It wasn't successful becauseit wasn't what Dungeons and Dragons players wanted in a "dungeons and dragons" mmo. They didn't like the setting, they wanted a more open world, they didn't want to grind dungeons and espeically dungeons that all stemmed off of once city. So those are some of the main reasons why it wasn't sucessful despite "not" being a wow clone.
Lotro did not go f2p because it wasn't doing well. It was doing as well as any successful MMO if you took WoW numbers out of the equation. It went f2p because they sawa huge jump in revenue when DDO went f2p and thought they could apply the same business model to LOTRO. As a matter of fact, not only did they see an increase in DDO revenue but there was actually an increase in subscriptions. Same happened to LOTRO.
Rift is still new as compared to other games so it still has some time to go. It had a very sucessful launch.
People need to step back and stop looking at millions of subs as being the only bar for success. Take wow out of the equation and some asian mmo's that have many players beause of the business model they use over there and it seems that a successful western mmo has a few hundred thousand.
Of course, one could be even smarter about it and ponit out that any mmo that can pay its bills, give players a good experience and add content on a regular basis is successful. Regardless of sub numbers.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Slight correction.... CoH was released a few months before WoW. CoV was added quite a bit after the WoW release though.
I don't see why you need yet another game that is similar to WoW. We have EQ2, Vanguard, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, and Rift just to name a few. If those games do not satisfy your needs I guarantee SWTOR won't either.
First I'd say Vanguard is something different than WOW, as is AOC, but anyway. I don't understand your point, just because those games offer similar features doesn't mean that you can't dislike those games, yet enjoy TOR.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Oh it'll please plenty. Those that love Mass Effect style conversations and story options will find it there. And for the masses wanting their Star Wars fix. If you like the idea of having some NPC follow you around and help you fight thats a plus.
Not sure if Swtor is really doing anything different other than that. For a lot of people thats more than enough. Im not one of them but I cant begrudge them for it.
Theoritically lets say World of Warcraft somehow came out with an expansion or a mod that suddenly turned WoW into Star Wars. Two different versions. One is regular WoW, the other is full of ships and lightsabers etc. Totally Star Wars themed. Which do you think the players would spend more time on? Everyone, at least for awhile, would go Star Wars crazy. And this is really what its all about.
Bioware knew they didnt have to alter things much. They could afford to play it safe and sell tons of copies. Why? Their name. Bioware. And the other name. Star Wars. This = $$$ and they know it.
nah, you can't guarantee something like that.
They are all different games. if they were the same I would just be playing WoW and be done with it.
Why wouldn't I play an extremely polished game with a huge community that has large yearly events where the community can get together and talk about "the game" and the game is backed by a lot of funding?
But I don't play WoW, can't get beyond a character in the 30's that I made the day the game was launched.
SWToR's game mechanics don't bother me one bit and I like the changes they are making to the genre. Or better said their take on an mmo.
Others might feel the same way.
Not everyone requires earth shattering paradigm shifts in their game play in order to enjoy a game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You caught me. I breezed it over. Thanks for the heads up.
Clearly, they are different. I said similar. No where did I say they were carbon copies of WoW.
By your response, you're indicating you do play one of those games(or enjoy at least one). Therefore, you may enjoy SWTOR. I claimed if you don't enjoy one of those listed games you won't enjoy SWTOR, either.
I've been playing MMO's for 10+ years too, and in that time I've hardly ever been wrong in my expectations of the games I played, I also never have been hugely disappointed or shocked or surprised, only in a positive sense. So...
Looking at things objectively, I dispute the whole hilarious belief that all MMO gamers have grown sick, burnt out or fed up with all the core mechanics that made up the MMO genre and gameplay. I mean, do you see people that have grown tired of using the same base mechanics in shooters that made up that genre for the past 10-15 years?
Or that if I play a CoD game, that when I play the newest MW game that after 10 years it still feels the same for the largest part as those early CoD games?
No, you don't see people do that, and that's why you forget a very simple basic human thing: people like something new, but they also like things that are familiar and the same, they like that maybe even more. That's why you see people that like potatoes or spaghetti, not ask for some completely different cuisine every few months, gotten completely sick of spaghetti or how potatoes, or why someone not suddenly throws away his Heineken beer because after drinking it for a few years he's gotten completely sick and bored with it.
So, everyone who's clamoring for something new or innovative because they've gotten themselves burnt out on certain gameplay aspects forgot this basic thing.
The prime rule isn't innovation, it's having fun: as long as people are having fun and enjoying themselves, they'll keep playing a game.
And apparently those people who can't enjoy themselves anymore in some games, have forgotten that for many years people have been having fun and sticking in their themepark MMO's for months to years longer than when reached level cap and done the quest content.
Don't you think that there comes a time when it's enough with the whole themepark MMO bashing? Really, if BW opted for the themepark model because it's more successful and more liked by a larger part of the MMO playerbase - which extends beyond this site and has proven to have on average a different opinion from the majority of people here - then it doesn't mean that they won't deliver an MMORPG that's good quality and fun to play in, with its own distinctive gameplay.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What if you really, really don't need another fantasy game?
I said nothing about themepark. I think the best possible design might be a mix of theme park and sandbox. But sandbox alone? What kinda game is that? Is that even....a game at that point? Im unsure. Im not anti theme park.
And no it doesnt mean they wont deliver an mmo thats good quality, fun to play, and with its own distinctive game play. But its the game play Im mostly talking about. It LOOKS like WoW with light sabers. Looks....not necessarily plays. Im still on the fence. But they're plainly not pushing any of the mechanics into new frontiers is all Im saying. What Im saying is its possible they didnt have too. And they knew it.
I don't understand this. It doesn't look anything like WoW to me. No more than it looks like EQ. That is to say, it is built upon themepark MMO staples. It's like saying hey that sports car looks like a sports car! This "it looks like WoW statement" is far overused and generally says nothing about what we're looking at.
I really can't disagree with what you say about them not pushing the boundaries and as you say them not having to and I'm 100 percent behind them.
I recall hearing about SWG from some fanbois working at the local EB and them explaining to me how SOE was trying to be different and innovative and we see now how that worked for them, not to say the original SWG wasn't a good game (I loved it for the better part of a year) but it never drew the kind of crowd demanded of it and led to the eventual death of the game with all kinds of trip ups along the way.
I've seen so many games come and go on the strength of being innovative and different and when they fail they aren't cut much slack if any.
I can give credit to a company for trying and succeeding at being different but I sure won't hold it against someone for sticking to what they know will work if they can do it right too.
I actually thought it looked just like the free to play game Allods. Which is always called a WOW clone.