Why do people think its ok, as long as its just vanity items?
In a F2P game, vanity items are ok, because the game has to make money somehow, and its better than pay-to-win items.
but in a game with a box price and a required subscription? No, vanity items are still bad, because the game doesn't need them to make money, and the only people who don't mind are the ones who don't care about vanity items. Anyone who does care about vanity items will wonder why they're not in the payed-for game like everything else.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I can see why people feel they dont get the full game with the cash shop, but really if it is just for cosmetic items and stuff then why does it matter. I think that is one area most gamers can compromise on, or should be able to anyway. cosmetic items only I could care less, ill wear my butt ugly brown pants instead of paying for some nice looking ones. the problems with cash shop is they are generally set up and the game is set up in a way that kind of forces you to buy from them.
imo blizzard did their cash shop right, i never actually needed to use it, nor did I ever even look at it except for one time when i was thinking of transferring a toon to another server. I know blizzard isnt a full item cash shop, but it is pretty close but everything in there that I have ever heard about was purely cosmetic or fluff, I could care less about a my little pony.
So no I dont think a cash shop is too terrible if done right and left at fluff and vanity items, just leave the power items out of it, leave items that truly affect your playing experience out of it, personally even on free to play games power items need to be left out, but especially in sub games. Lets face it guys, cash shops are here to stay, we can either get on the bus or get the f---- out of the mmo genre, but cash shops aint going anywhere, lets at least try to make companies implement cash shops that we like instead of pay 2 win shops and making the playing field uneven for the players that play the game instead of going shopping.
Cosmetic items are still part of the game. It may not be as important to you, but it is important to others.
Let me use some hyperbole to make a point...
Say you're paying your $15 to play an MMO. All of the "gameplay" affecting content, items, skills, etc are made available to you. The caveat however, is that what's not provided to you is any sort of cosmetic or aesthetics to the game. Every player character and all of their items/equipment have the exact same model and color as each other, no matter what stats they have. You can however, pay extra money in the cash shop to purchase different looks.
Would you be happy having to pay a full subscription price for a game like that? Remember, the actual gameplay mechanics and stats are completely provided to subscribers and nothing in the cash shop affects gameplay. You only have to pay money if you don't want to look like a literal copy-paste clone of every other player's character. But, you're still paying $15 a month for only the base gameplay.
Vanity items or not, cash shops are still restraiing content from players. In a F2P game that's acceptable, but in a sub MMO, that's double dipping.
Do you think the gaming industry has a hard time making money? Christ look at all the MMO's being advertised on this site. Why do you think that is?
Look at the single player games, where you pay box sales and that's all she wrote. You think they don't make money off of it?
The video gaming industry is and has been growing by leaps and bounds... why?
You pay $50-$60 for a box and then you pay $15 a month for a subscription. So in a year after you spent $180, your lucky if you get 2 or 3 dungeons in that time. Maybe a few stupid Christmas or Haloween quests. For all that cash.
Why do you think that there is so many MMO's out and many more in the works and soon to be released? Because it's hard to make money with them?
I find it unbelievalble how gullible some people are.
Cash shops are a way of making 6-figures on a 3 or 4-figure investment. They print money.
And that's why you will see more and more of this shite.
The poor devoloper's need to bring in more money so they can put food on the table... maybe if your a small indie.
LOL scoff
Well the industry does not make money, individual comapnies do. Success breeds far more cost as Blizzard found out at launch of WOW.
On the other hand, let's look at the entertainment value of an MMO. So in a year's time, I have spent $180 using your figures. Let's say I am a casual player and I play 60 hours a month (easy math). If my math does not fail me, that is roughly 720 hours a year at the cost of 0.25$ an hour. I spend a qurater an hour for entertainment.
Conversely, I go to a movie and dinner. The dinner costs me $30 and the movie is $15. This entertains me roughly 3 hours at a cost of $15 an hour!
So comparatively, MMO's are very, very very cheap and are well beyond the "average" cost of entertainment these days. So we are not talking about a lot of money at all.
But when you go out to dinner or the movies, you're told up front how much you're going to be paying.
You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items".
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
Do you think the gaming industry has a hard time making money? Christ look at all the MMO's being advertised on this site. Why do you think that is?
Look at the single player games, where you pay box sales and that's all she wrote. You think they don't make money off of it?
The video gaming industry is and has been growing by leaps and bounds... why?
You pay $50-$60 for a box and then you pay $15 a month for a subscription. So in a year after you spent $180, your lucky if you get 2 or 3 dungeons in that time. Maybe a few stupid Christmas or Haloween quests. For all that cash.
Why do you think that there is so many MMO's out and many more in the works and soon to be released? Because it's hard to make money with them?
I find it unbelievalble how gullible some people are.
Cash shops are a way of making 6-figures on a 3 or 4-figure investment. They print money.
And that's why you will see more and more of this shite.
The poor devoloper's need to bring in more money so they can put food on the table... maybe if your a small indie.
LOL scoff
Well the industry does not make money, individual comapnies do. Success breeds far more cost as Blizzard found out at launch of WOW.
On the other hand, let's look at the entertainment value of an MMO. So in a year's time, I have spent $180 using your figures. Let's say I am a casual player and I play 60 hours a month (easy math). If my math does not fail me, that is roughly 720 hours a year at the cost of 0.25$ an hour. I spend a qurater an hour for entertainment.
Conversely, I go to a movie and dinner. The dinner costs me $30 and the movie is $15. This entertains me roughly 3 hours at a cost of $15 an hour!
So comparatively, MMO's are very, very very cheap and are well beyond the "average" cost of entertainment these days. So we are not talking about a lot of money at all.
Yes I agree a $15 a month MMO can be a very cheap cost per hour of entertainment. Dinner is a physycal thing that requires raw materials to prepare, and your lucky to profit 10%-15% of your sales in the restaraunt business, Unless of coarse your one of the big fast food chains that employ's chemist's instead of chef's to produce their menu.
no ceridith i got your point, I understand what you are saying, Im just saying as long as the items offered in the cash shop can also be gotten in the game through playing and the items are only cosmetic anyway, I think that is one way I personally at least can compromise on the issue.
We as players can either do two things here, boycott all games that use this type of payment model, which will probably means we might lose out on a great game, because all games are going there for the most part, a few that are not, or we can frown and suck it up and play anyway, or we can quit playing mmos all together.
Personally I have quit playing mmos alltogether for right now because the games are just not much fun anymore, waiting for something truly different to come out, so far the only three games ive seen that might be truly different are guild wars 2, wildstar, and from what ive seen from 38 studios the game they are making, if the single player game they are making is anything like their mmo is going to be. I personally just left a game I truly enjoyed due to pay 2 win items in the cash shop, that is world of tanks. I dont like cash shops, but i can compromise somewhat on them considering I dont have much of a choice if i want to keep playing these games. its very profitable for the companies so they will keep putting them in. if they lose one player that will spend 15 bucks a month, but if another player is also paying that 15 plus an extra 20 bucks a month for cosmetic items, that is still a win in their books. furthermore in most games f2play that I have seen the average player spends way more money in the cash shop than a 15 dollar sub fee would be. It makes money for these companies so it isnt going anywhere, I just want to try to force companies to put in cash shops that isnt pay 2 win shops.
But when you go out to dinner or the movies, you're told up front how much you're going to be paying.
You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items".
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
Sorry, couldn't help myself. You restaurant analogy is as erroneous as Moirae's Hotel analogy.
First, knives and forks are tools and have always been included since they practically opened so 'Getting surprised by a fee'? Is a no go.
However, the table beside you ordered wine with the meal (extra cost)...You believe you're entitled to the wine because you paid for the steak?
You pay $15/month for the priviledge to play in their world, not anything in it. If they to add a flying squirrel ingame, it isn't automically yours until they say so( by simply adding it in a patch). If they want to charge for it, then it's your choice whether or not to buy it.
Gaming is a technological industry - technologies often get cheaper faster than inflation makes them more expensive. e.g. electronics like TVs, digital cameras, etc.
Also, why are you talking about $15 when that's already on top of the main $50 for the box? That doesn't seem all that comparitively cheap to me. Aside from the technological aspect of the cost, I don't think enough people would be willing or able to pay much more than $70 for just a single game.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Yes I agree a $15 a month MMO can be a very cheap cost per hour of entertainment. Dinner is a physycal thing that requires raw materials to prepare, and your lucky to profit 10%-15% of your sales in the restaraunt business, Unless of coarse your one of the big fast food chains that employ's chemist's instead of chef's to produce their menu.
What's your argument?
The point is that I could stay home and eat Ramen Noodle and watch a dvd I own and pay nothing. Yet, I choose to go out and spend that money knowing its going to cost me in advance.
In addition, I could play a single player game and not pay anything. But I choose to play an MMO and I know their pricing and plans in advance so I can choose to pay or not. And since its such a comparatively cheap method of entertainment, its more than worth the money I pay for entertainment. if the company introduces a cash shop to increase their profits and gives me the choice to buy items or not (when they could just raise their sub fees for all players), then why should I complain? I then have the choice to buy items or not (assuming its not pay-2-win which is a different argument). I like having choice in my hands.
And that is why I do not see why peopl get so upset about this. The cash shop is optional (assuming its not pay-2-win) and the player retains the choice in the matter. The alternatives would be to raise the sub fee for all players involved which removes play choice and would be much, much more of an issue.
Face it, either sub fees will increase or alternative revenue models will be introduced. And I prefer models that give me choice.
Cash shops are not optional for those who want complete access to a game. That's the entire point of contension with having cash shops in subscription MMOs for most gamers. A lot of people feel that paying a monthly fee means they should get full access. The existence of a cash shop in a game explicitly means they don't get the full game experience, or an otherwise inferior experience, unless they pay extra.
If the increase of sub fees is reasonable and justifiable, most people would rather just pay a few dollars more a month so long as they continued to have full, unrestricted access to the game. The problem is, developers aren't even giving us the choice, it's cash shop or GTFO, and more gamers are choosing the later.
Originally posted by Elidien Originally posted by Ceridith
snip
But when you go out to dinner or the movies, you're told up front how much you're going to be paying. You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items". You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie. Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost. What I am getting at is, when you look at the cost of entertainment/food/travel/life in general, MMO's are still very cheap. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. To me, paying $15 today is the equivelent of going to a fast food restaurant, watching a low budget movie in a theater without surrounded sound or digital imaging, or listen to old 8-track tapes. Comparatively speaking, MMO's should cost more today. No other industry I know of is at the same cost/revenue model/etc that they were at 10 years ago! I am not advocating that MMo companies need more money (I am not an insider and know their balance sheets) just that development costs are so much more today. I would rather have a revenue model with player choice than one with no choice and higher sub fees. MMO's will cost more just like everything else. Its inevitable. How the heck GW2 will do it, I will never know and I will play close attention.
Most of the money is made back in box sales, just like non-mmorpg. That's why there are "Collector's Editions". You get to charge $20 or in some cases $100 more for your initial offering, making a lot more money. Funcom is taking an after the initial sale route to raising additional money with the cash shop. People would have to play the game and enjoy it in order for them to make money on the cash shop.
They'll probably have a collector's edition as well though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
#3 a never ending game ie. game is always being devoloped and added to
There were and are alot of single player game's with a free multiplayer component.
When we were introduced to the MMORPG and the P2P model was first introduced, the main reason given for the $15 a month fee was #3
Now some of you people have no problem being hosed. But when it come's to #3 we were shoveled a pile of crap. Like I said earlier, we are lucky to get 2 raids a year and maybe some silly holiday content for $15 a month or $180 a year or $120 a year if you pay in advance to let them collect interest on or invest your money.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING CONTENT FOR YOU WITH YOUR $15 A MONTH, NOT USING YOUR $15 A MONTH TO MAKE A CASH SHOP AND MAKE YOU PAY EXTRA FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT.
P2P GAMES WITH A CASH SHOP IS ABOUT GREED
Some people argue that the poor Blizzard's and Funcom's and EA's and SOE's need to make a profit.
These companies with the execption of SOE started small, and are now MULTI BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION'S
THEY HAVE PROFITED HANSOMLEY for their work and in most case's deservedly so.
Bottom line is, use my sub for what you originally said it was for and if your not making a handsome profit from you $15 a month it's because your game suck's
But when you go out to dinner or the movies, you're told up front how much you're going to be paying.
You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items".
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
Comparatively speaking, MMO's should cost more today. No other industry I know of is at the same cost/revenue model/etc that they were at 10 years ago! I am not advocating that MMo companies need more money (I am not an insider and know their balance sheets) just that development costs are so much more today. I would rather have a revenue model with player choice than one with no choice and higher sub fees.
Actually there is quite a bit examples where price stayed same for 10+ years , heck there are industries that get their products cheaper.
This is USA goverment page , that is monitoring prices for actually whole economy. This is alot of data , but you can relatively easy browse throught it.
Easiest example are prices of electronic equipment , let's take microprocessor's , specifically CPU's for example. Their average prices dropped. Alot. In absolute prices , if you count inflation their price drop is even more impressive. I don't know if you remember but I sure do remember PC prices in 90's. Price range in 1990 for a Dell PC when we talk about deskop for personal use , ranged from around 1800 $ for a 286 processor system with monochromatic monitor to over 9000$ for PC with 486 processor and color monitor. Middle class PC was averaging at about 2,500 - 4000 $.
Heck I remember paying off credit for a PC bough in 1993 for almost 2 years because it was so pricey. Well I went for a higher end stuff but still.
--------------------------------------
You forgetting one thing in terms of mmorpg's and subscription prices. Amount of subscription numbers now and 10 + years ago. Biggest Mmorpg's in west had around 200-250k subscribers like Ultima Online in 2001 and around 300-350 k for Everquest in 2001.
While Box for Ultima Online was priced like 49$ , expansions were really cheap for subscribers. They were like 6.95$. If you were new player you did NOT had to buy normal game + expansion like nowadays , when expansion did hit market , new boxes just included whole game with expansions. So as a starter player you just had to buy one box , not normal box + many expansions like f.e. WoW nowadays.
Not to mention that new AAA mmorpg's nowadays sell alot more boxes in their initial sales. Also those boxes are more pricey and amount of CE editions that seels it quite big. (just look at CE demand for Swtor).
Whole gaming industry IS rising at pace that almost any other industry cannot match. Even in times of recession it still grow at ridiculous rates and best is that predictions state that it will grow very fast in many years to come.
It is one of most profittable business as well. Sure some companies fail , like in every industry , but most comanies flourish.
MMO market rise is much faster than average for whole gaming industry.
So really , fairy tales about "poor" game companies that gives players 'presents' by not raising subscription prices are just fairy tales.
As for maintenance , cost of maintaning servers ,etc actually dropped through the years. Bandwidtch costs are cheaper, wages of tech server guys are actually lower or same at best , at least in US, electricy yeah it has risen but servers are more energy-effeficiant nowadays.
Cash Shops are put into games not becasue they have to be there but because it is one of most profittable things , to design an new skin for a horse or a cloak , etc is ridiculosely cheap. Not to mention selling , buffs , stat increase and things like that , because that actually don't need ANY investment since only things that rise is a number in your character stats.
Selling things like that is almost pure profit. That's why they are beign put into a game.
It is similar to some DLC's , whose sometimes contain few small things or content that last like 1-2 h ,and are very cheap to produce (frequently are during game development and you just buy 'unlock') and are priced at 10-15 $ when full game cost ~50-60$
Also high profit for very minor investment.
Game companies are what they are companies, very frequently companies that are on a stock market and have investors , and are run by same kind of CEO's and board of directors like Coca-cola or AT&T.
Their responsibility is to bring as much revenue and profit as possible, not to mention that if they ramp up the profit , very high bonues , can apply , in various form , option for market shares, pure cash , etc like in any other non-gaming company.
Yet I see many people still treat companies like Funcom , Trion , Bioware or hell even Blizzard , EA or Activision like some indie developers who are partially hobbyist and much what they do is for players 'sake'.
Really people start thinking from yours , consument point of view , not from corporate point of view.
Do you care that much when you buy Pepsi , bread or chair to your room?
#3 a never ending game ie. game is always being devoloped and added to
There were and are alot of single player game's with a free multiplayer component.
When we were introduced to the MMORPG and the P2P model was first introduced, the main reason given for the $15 a month fee was #3
Now some of you people have no problem being hosed. But when it come's to #3 we were shoveled a pile of crap. Like I said earlier, we are lucky to get 2 raids a year and maybe some silly holiday content for $15 a month or $180 a year or $120 a year if you pay in advance to let them collect interest on or invest your money.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING CONTENT FOR YOU WITH YOUR $15 A MONTH, NOT USING YOUR $15 A MONTH TO MAKE A CASH SHOP AND MAKE YOU PAY EXTRA FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT.
P2P GAMES WITH A CASH SHOP IS ABOUT GREED
Some people argue that the poor Blizzard's and Funcom's and EA's and SOE's need to make a profit.
These companies with the execption of SOE started small, and are now MULTI BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION'S
THEY HAVE PROFITED HANSOMLEY for their work and in most case's deservedly so.
Bottom line is, use my sub for what you originally said it was for and if your not making a handsome profit from you $15 a month it's because your game suck's
End of Story
You can have 5 pages listing all of what that $15 is supposed to pay for, but you still don't own anything or have a say as to how they spend it. That's your sense of entitlement.
You disagree with what they do with it, then you stop giving them you dough, problem fixed.
This belief some of you have that companies offering a service/game w/e 'owes' you something for what you put in is total lunacy. As I said many times before, if enough players stop using them and it doesn't make any more money, they'll stop.
Your story ends with you stop paying in to the CS's and play whichever game you feel you money is well spent on.
Cable, cellphones, cars, most services out there all offer basic goods/service and most if not all have extra/premium/more features for their products/services. Nobody gouges you, it's all up to the consumer whether or not they want that 'little bit more'
So, it has come to mmo's (no surprise now that it's mainstream) and so the trend of money making greed is new? It's been like this for centuries.
Only we the gamers can shape it, but not if many of us are willing to pay for this fluff. Blaming the companies is idiotic and saying they're forcing you is nonsensical because they only exist because gamers are willing to give them their money.
If most had the willpower to say 'No' then the gaming companies would see that it's not profitable and would remove them in future games. It's starts with us, and will only end with us. Blaming anyone else is simply short-sighted.
#3 a never ending game ie. game is always being devoloped and added to
There were and are alot of single player game's with a free multiplayer component.
When we were introduced to the MMORPG and the P2P model was first introduced, the main reason given for the $15 a month fee was #3
Now some of you people have no problem being hosed. But when it come's to #3 we were shoveled a pile of crap. Like I said earlier, we are lucky to get 2 raids a year and maybe some silly holiday content for $15 a month or $180 a year or $120 a year if you pay in advance to let them collect interest on or invest your money.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING CONTENT FOR YOU WITH YOUR $15 A MONTH, NOT USING YOUR $15 A MONTH TO MAKE A CASH SHOP AND MAKE YOU PAY EXTRA FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT.
P2P GAMES WITH A CASH SHOP IS ABOUT GREED
Some people argue that the poor Blizzard's and Funcom's and EA's and SOE's need to make a profit.
These companies with the execption of SOE started small, and are now MULTI BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION'S
THEY HAVE PROFITED HANSOMLEY for their work and in most case's deservedly so.
Bottom line is, use my sub for what you originally said it was for and if your not making a handsome profit from you $15 a month it's because your game suck's
End of Story
You can have 5 pages listing all of what that $15 is supposed to pay for, but you still don't own anything or have a say as to how they spend it. That's your sense of entitlement.
You disagree with what they do with it, then you stop giving them you dough, problem fixed.
This belief some of you have that companies offering a service/game w/e 'owes' you something for what you put in is total lunacy. As I said many times before, if enough players stop using them and it doesn't make any more money, they'll stop.
Your story ends with you stop paying in to the CS's and play whichever game you feel you money is well spent on.
Cable, cellphones, cars, most services out there all offer basic goods/service and most if not all have extra/premium/more features for their products/services. Nobody gouges you, it's all up to the consumer whether or not they want that 'little bit more'
So, it has come to mmo's (no surprise now that it's mainstream) and so the trend of money making greed is new? It's been like this for centuries.
Only we the gamers can shape it, but not if many of us are willing to pay for this fluff. Blaming the companies is idiotic and saying they're forcing you is nonsensical because they only exist because gamers are willing to give them their money.
If most had the willpower to say 'No' then the gaming companies would see that it's not profitable and would remove them in future games. It's starts with us, and will only end with us. Blaming anyone else is simply short-sighted.
Sense of entitlement?
premium service lol, paying $5, $10, $15, whatever for a pair of pixel pants is a premium service that's for sure.
The business I own 25% of, makes in the %12 profit range like most business's do. Gives me a pretty damn nice lifestyle. It's enough for me, I don't need more.
You see, the problem is, the more someone take's from the pie... the less there is for everyone else.
Might just have to bail out them poor banks for another 700 billion again.
premium service lol, paying $5, $10, $15, whatever for a pair of pixel pants is a premium service that's for sure.
The business I own 25% of, makes in the %12 profit range like most business's do. Gives me a pretty damn nice lifestyle. It's enough for me, I don't need more.
You see, the problem is, the more someone take's from the pie... the less there is for everyone else.
Might just have to bail out them poor banks for another 700 billion again.
Sense of entitlement bah
Never said everyone is greedy, but it sure does seem like it when big corps are involved. Your 700 billion bailout comment proves it.
However, expecting something for something else or what you perceive as yours is entitlement. If I didn't like your business for whatever reason, I'm sure you and your partners would 'QQ' while laughing so please...
The pie is big enough for anyone who wants a slice, because only the consumer dictates what they'll spend and how much of it is worth their money.
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
Actually the money you pay per month is to access the game as the developers see fit - no where does it say that any subscription paid entitles you to EVERYTHING a game has to offer. What the company deems worthy of the subscription fee is what you get for said fee. That is why when major changes are made to MMOs you get a notification for the development team and end up having to re-agree to the EULA.
I agree it sucks, but thats the way it works in almost every business that provides a service. You don't pay for, You pay to access.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
Actually the money you pay per month is to access the game as the developers see fit - no where does it say that any subscription paid entitles you to EVERYTHING a game has to offer. What the company deems worthy of the subscription fee is what you get for said fee. That is why when major changes are made to MMOs you get a notification for the development team and end up having to re-agree to the EULA.
I agree it sucks, but thats the way it works in almost every business that provides a service. You don't pay for, You pay to access.
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
Actually the money you pay per month is to access the game as the developers see fit - no where does it say that any subscription paid entitles you to EVERYTHING a game has to offer. What the company deems worthy of the subscription fee is what you get for said fee. That is why when major changes are made to MMOs you get a notification for the development team and end up having to re-agree to the EULA.
I agree it sucks, but thats the way it works in almost every business that provides a service. You don't pay for, You pay to access.
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Virtually every single AAA MMO out there has a cash shop of sorts. It's already done, folks, and the boycotts aren't going to help. Especially since for every one complaining about the cash shop and the monthly fee, there are dozens who don't care and some who even think that it's a cool feature.
This is why I'm really looking forward for GW2. At least ANet will not charge a monthly fee in addition to the cash shop. Firefall looks pretty tempting as well.
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
Not really. Mmmorpg genre proved that it is profitable frequently very profitable many times , actually like you describe them "suits and investors" aren't so ignorant as you "paint" them.
Term "business model" is quite universal , and actually game failing to reach profit's target is more frequently than it is justyfied blamed on things like "business model" "marketting" "target group" ,etc by corporate higher-ups.
So voting with your wallet and boycotting games with business model you don't agree could be succesful and actually is ONLY option if you want to have any impact. Anything other than that will NOT work.
Other that sulking up and taking cash shop with open arms that is.
btw. to all people saying "till it is cosmetic , vanity ,etc cash shop is okay" , you WILL have P2P + PAY TO WIN cash shops. It is only logical to try it after community start to view P2P+vanity Cash Shops as a norm.
Would be totally illogical and plain stupid from business point of view to not try to push it further step by step in future.
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
Not really. Mmmorpg genre proved that it is profitable frequently very profitable many times , actually like you describe them "suits and investors" aren't so ignorant as you "paint" them.
Term "business model" is quite universal , and actually game failing to reach profit's target is more frequently than it is justyfied blamed on things like "business model" "marketting" "target group" ,etc by corporate higher-ups.
So voting with your wallet and boycotting games with business model you don't agree could be succesful and actually is ONLY option if you want to have any impact. Anything other than that will NOT work.
Other that sulking up and taking cash shop with open arms that is.
btw. to all people saying "till it is cosmetic , vanity ,etc cash shop is okay" , you WILL have P2P + PAY TO WIN cash shops. It is only logical to try it after community start to view P2P+vanity Cash Shops as a norm.
Would be totally illogical and plain stupid from business point of view to not try to push it further step by step in future.
devs used to be a group of people who made quality games because they loved it
devs now are a group of people who make half assed games to please the investors who want moar money... (and we give it to them) good for them bad for the gaming industry.
boycotting it wont do anything... since the people who grew up with MMORPGs, what i call real gamers, the UO/EQ even MUD generation are a big minority
compared to
your average john doe who works 40 hours /week and has more money than time so they pay big bucks to get ahead
or
your average 13 year old teenager with momy that can't say no to his honneybun schmookens FAT LAZY SON... (or daughter)
there is nothing left for the basement (i call it dungeon) dweller that feeds on doritoes and mountain dew (i prefer red bull)
ok in all seriousness
TL;DR people who have more money than time outnumber people who have more time than money.
TL;DR2, back then games where who can make the best quality game, now is who can make more money.
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
Not really. Mmmorpg genre proved that it is profitable frequently very profitable many times , actually like you describe them "suits and investors" aren't so ignorant as you "paint" them.
Term "business model" is quite universal , and actually game failing to reach profit's target is more frequently than it is justyfied blamed on things like "business model" "marketting" "target group" ,etc by corporate higher-ups.
So voting with your wallet and boycotting games with business model you don't agree could be succesful and actually is ONLY option if you want to have any impact. Anything other than that will NOT work.
Other that sulking up and taking cash shop with open arms that is.
btw. to all people saying "till it is cosmetic , vanity ,etc cash shop is okay" , you WILL have P2P + PAY TO WIN cash shops. It is only logical to try it after community start to view P2P+vanity Cash Shops as a norm.
Would be totally illogical and plain stupid from business point of view to not try to push it further step by step in future.
devs used to be a group of people who made quality games because they loved it
devs now are a group of people who make half assed games to please the investors who want moar money... (and we give it to them) good for them bad for the gaming industry.
boycotting it wont do anything... since the people who grew up with MMORPGs, what i call real gamers, the UO/EQ even MUD generation are a big minority
compared to
your average john doe who works 40 hours /week and has more money than time so they pay big bucks to get ahead
or
your average 13 year old teenager with momy that can't say no to his honneybun schmookens FAT LAZY SON... (or daughter)
there is nothing left for the basement (i call it dungeon) dweller that feeds on doritoes and mountain dew (i prefer red bull)
ok in all seriousness
TL;DR people who have more money than time outnumber people who have more time than money.
TL;DR2, back then games where who can make the best quality game, now is who can make more money.
Okay, and?
Trying to rationalize that cash shops are a fact of some MMOs still doesn't justify the existence of a cash shop in a subscription game to me. Nor will it ever change the fact that the existence of a cash shop on any level in an MMO kills any immersion and enjoyment from the game that I would otherwise get out of said game.
If the industry becomes nothing but cash shop ridden MMOs, so be it. But i'm not going to stick around and continue to play and pay greedy developers that want a license to print money for virtually no effort on their part. Despite that, I'm confident that there is growing demand from players on the side of sanity for some developers to realize that there's a market for MMOs with a reasonably higher sub so long as it has no cash shop.
Comments
Why do people think its ok, as long as its just vanity items?
In a F2P game, vanity items are ok, because the game has to make money somehow, and its better than pay-to-win items.
but in a game with a box price and a required subscription? No, vanity items are still bad, because the game doesn't need them to make money, and the only people who don't mind are the ones who don't care about vanity items. Anyone who does care about vanity items will wonder why they're not in the payed-for game like everything else.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Cosmetic items are still part of the game. It may not be as important to you, but it is important to others.
Let me use some hyperbole to make a point...
Say you're paying your $15 to play an MMO. All of the "gameplay" affecting content, items, skills, etc are made available to you. The caveat however, is that what's not provided to you is any sort of cosmetic or aesthetics to the game. Every player character and all of their items/equipment have the exact same model and color as each other, no matter what stats they have. You can however, pay extra money in the cash shop to purchase different looks.
Would you be happy having to pay a full subscription price for a game like that? Remember, the actual gameplay mechanics and stats are completely provided to subscribers and nothing in the cash shop affects gameplay. You only have to pay money if you don't want to look like a literal copy-paste clone of every other player's character. But, you're still paying $15 a month for only the base gameplay.
Vanity items or not, cash shops are still restraiing content from players. In a F2P game that's acceptable, but in a sub MMO, that's double dipping.
But when you go out to dinner or the movies, you're told up front how much you're going to be paying.
You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items".
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
Yes I agree a $15 a month MMO can be a very cheap cost per hour of entertainment. Dinner is a physycal thing that requires raw materials to prepare, and your lucky to profit 10%-15% of your sales in the restaraunt business, Unless of coarse your one of the big fast food chains that employ's chemist's instead of chef's to produce their menu.
What's your argument?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
no ceridith i got your point, I understand what you are saying, Im just saying as long as the items offered in the cash shop can also be gotten in the game through playing and the items are only cosmetic anyway, I think that is one way I personally at least can compromise on the issue.
We as players can either do two things here, boycott all games that use this type of payment model, which will probably means we might lose out on a great game, because all games are going there for the most part, a few that are not, or we can frown and suck it up and play anyway, or we can quit playing mmos all together.
Personally I have quit playing mmos alltogether for right now because the games are just not much fun anymore, waiting for something truly different to come out, so far the only three games ive seen that might be truly different are guild wars 2, wildstar, and from what ive seen from 38 studios the game they are making, if the single player game they are making is anything like their mmo is going to be. I personally just left a game I truly enjoyed due to pay 2 win items in the cash shop, that is world of tanks. I dont like cash shops, but i can compromise somewhat on them considering I dont have much of a choice if i want to keep playing these games. its very profitable for the companies so they will keep putting them in. if they lose one player that will spend 15 bucks a month, but if another player is also paying that 15 plus an extra 20 bucks a month for cosmetic items, that is still a win in their books. furthermore in most games f2play that I have seen the average player spends way more money in the cash shop than a 15 dollar sub fee would be. It makes money for these companies so it isnt going anywhere, I just want to try to force companies to put in cash shops that isnt pay 2 win shops.
Sorry, couldn't help myself. You restaurant analogy is as erroneous as Moirae's Hotel analogy.
First, knives and forks are tools and have always been included since they practically opened so 'Getting surprised by a fee'? Is a no go.
However, the table beside you ordered wine with the meal (extra cost)...You believe you're entitled to the wine because you paid for the steak?
You pay $15/month for the priviledge to play in their world, not anything in it. If they to add a flying squirrel ingame, it isn't automically yours until they say so( by simply adding it in a patch). If they want to charge for it, then it's your choice whether or not to buy it.
Gaming is a technological industry - technologies often get cheaper faster than inflation makes them more expensive. e.g. electronics like TVs, digital cameras, etc.
Also, why are you talking about $15 when that's already on top of the main $50 for the box? That doesn't seem all that comparitively cheap to me. Aside from the technological aspect of the cost, I don't think enough people would be willing or able to pay much more than $70 for just a single game.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Cash shops are not optional for those who want complete access to a game. That's the entire point of contension with having cash shops in subscription MMOs for most gamers. A lot of people feel that paying a monthly fee means they should get full access. The existence of a cash shop in a game explicitly means they don't get the full game experience, or an otherwise inferior experience, unless they pay extra.
If the increase of sub fees is reasonable and justifiable, most people would rather just pay a few dollars more a month so long as they continued to have full, unrestricted access to the game. The problem is, developers aren't even giving us the choice, it's cash shop or GTFO, and more gamers are choosing the later.
You don't order your meal off the menu, then find out when your meal arrives that if you want a fork and knife to eat with you have to pay $5 more for "convenience items".
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
What I am getting at is, when you look at the cost of entertainment/food/travel/life in general, MMO's are still very cheap. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. To me, paying $15 today is the equivelent of going to a fast food restaurant, watching a low budget movie in a theater without surrounded sound or digital imaging, or listen to old 8-track tapes.
Comparatively speaking, MMO's should cost more today. No other industry I know of is at the same cost/revenue model/etc that they were at 10 years ago! I am not advocating that MMo companies need more money (I am not an insider and know their balance sheets) just that development costs are so much more today. I would rather have a revenue model with player choice than one with no choice and higher sub fees.
MMO's will cost more just like everything else. Its inevitable. How the heck GW2 will do it, I will never know and I will play close attention.
Most of the money is made back in box sales, just like non-mmorpg. That's why there are "Collector's Editions". You get to charge $20 or in some cases $100 more for your initial offering, making a lot more money. Funcom is taking an after the initial sale route to raising additional money with the cash shop. People would have to play the game and enjoy it in order for them to make money on the cash shop.
They'll probably have a collector's edition as well though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
People are quick to forget
Why do we pay a $15.00 dollar sub for?
Well the answer's I recall are:
#1 cost and maintenance of the server's
#2 Billing and infrastructure
#3 a never ending game ie. game is always being devoloped and added to
There were and are alot of single player game's with a free multiplayer component.
When we were introduced to the MMORPG and the P2P model was first introduced, the main reason given for the $15 a month fee was #3
Now some of you people have no problem being hosed. But when it come's to #3 we were shoveled a pile of crap. Like I said earlier, we are lucky to get 2 raids a year and maybe some silly holiday content for $15 a month or $180 a year or $120 a year if you pay in advance to let them collect interest on or invest your money.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING CONTENT FOR YOU WITH YOUR $15 A MONTH, NOT USING YOUR $15 A MONTH TO MAKE A CASH SHOP AND MAKE YOU PAY EXTRA FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT.
P2P GAMES WITH A CASH SHOP IS ABOUT GREED
Some people argue that the poor Blizzard's and Funcom's and EA's and SOE's need to make a profit.
These companies with the execption of SOE started small, and are now MULTI BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION'S
THEY HAVE PROFITED HANSOMLEY for their work and in most case's deservedly so.
Bottom line is, use my sub for what you originally said it was for and if your not making a handsome profit from you $15 a month it's because your game suck's
End of Story
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Actually there is quite a bit examples where price stayed same for 10+ years , heck there are industries that get their products cheaper.
You can have 5 pages listing all of what that $15 is supposed to pay for, but you still don't own anything or have a say as to how they spend it. That's your sense of entitlement.
You disagree with what they do with it, then you stop giving them you dough, problem fixed.
This belief some of you have that companies offering a service/game w/e 'owes' you something for what you put in is total lunacy. As I said many times before, if enough players stop using them and it doesn't make any more money, they'll stop.
Your story ends with you stop paying in to the CS's and play whichever game you feel you money is well spent on.
Cable, cellphones, cars, most services out there all offer basic goods/service and most if not all have extra/premium/more features for their products/services. Nobody gouges you, it's all up to the consumer whether or not they want that 'little bit more'
So, it has come to mmo's (no surprise now that it's mainstream) and so the trend of money making greed is new? It's been like this for centuries.
Only we the gamers can shape it, but not if many of us are willing to pay for this fluff. Blaming the companies is idiotic and saying they're forcing you is nonsensical because they only exist because gamers are willing to give them their money.
If most had the willpower to say 'No' then the gaming companies would see that it's not profitable and would remove them in future games. It's starts with us, and will only end with us. Blaming anyone else is simply short-sighted.
Sense of entitlement?
premium service lol, paying $5, $10, $15, whatever for a pair of pixel pants is a premium service that's for sure.
The business I own 25% of, makes in the %12 profit range like most business's do. Gives me a pretty damn nice lifestyle. It's enough for me, I don't need more.
You see, the problem is, the more someone take's from the pie... the less there is for everyone else.
Might just have to bail out them poor banks for another 700 billion again.
Sense of entitlement bah
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Never said everyone is greedy, but it sure does seem like it when big corps are involved. Your 700 billion bailout comment proves it.
However, expecting something for something else or what you perceive as yours is entitlement. If I didn't like your business for whatever reason, I'm sure you and your partners would 'QQ' while laughing so please...
The pie is big enough for anyone who wants a slice, because only the consumer dictates what they'll spend and how much of it is worth their money.
Ignorance Is Bliss!
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
Actually the money you pay per month is to access the game as the developers see fit - no where does it say that any subscription paid entitles you to EVERYTHING a game has to offer. What the company deems worthy of the subscription fee is what you get for said fee. That is why when major changes are made to MMOs you get a notification for the development team and end up having to re-agree to the EULA.
I agree it sucks, but thats the way it works in almost every business that provides a service. You don't pay for, You pay to access.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Virtually every single AAA MMO out there has a cash shop of sorts. It's already done, folks, and the boycotts aren't going to help. Especially since for every one complaining about the cash shop and the monthly fee, there are dozens who don't care and some who even think that it's a cool feature.
This is why I'm really looking forward for GW2. At least ANet will not charge a monthly fee in addition to the cash shop. Firefall looks pretty tempting as well.
Not really. Mmmorpg genre proved that it is profitable frequently very profitable many times , actually like you describe them "suits and investors" aren't so ignorant as you "paint" them.
Term "business model" is quite universal , and actually game failing to reach profit's target is more frequently than it is justyfied blamed on things like "business model" "marketting" "target group" ,etc by corporate higher-ups.
So voting with your wallet and boycotting games with business model you don't agree could be succesful and actually is ONLY option if you want to have any impact. Anything other than that will NOT work.
Other that sulking up and taking cash shop with open arms that is.
btw. to all people saying "till it is cosmetic , vanity ,etc cash shop is okay" , you WILL have P2P + PAY TO WIN cash shops. It is only logical to try it after community start to view P2P+vanity Cash Shops as a norm.
Would be totally illogical and plain stupid from business point of view to not try to push it further step by step in future.
P2P + cash shop = no thanks!
devs used to be a group of people who made quality games because they loved it
devs now are a group of people who make half assed games to please the investors who want moar money... (and we give it to them) good for them bad for the gaming industry.
boycotting it wont do anything... since the people who grew up with MMORPGs, what i call real gamers, the UO/EQ even MUD generation are a big minority
compared to
your average john doe who works 40 hours /week and has more money than time so they pay big bucks to get ahead
or
your average 13 year old teenager with momy that can't say no to his honneybun schmookens FAT LAZY SON... (or daughter)
there is nothing left for the basement (i call it dungeon) dweller that feeds on doritoes and mountain dew (i prefer red bull)
ok in all seriousness
TL;DR people who have more money than time outnumber people who have more time than money.
TL;DR2, back then games where who can make the best quality game, now is who can make more money.
Okay, and?
Trying to rationalize that cash shops are a fact of some MMOs still doesn't justify the existence of a cash shop in a subscription game to me. Nor will it ever change the fact that the existence of a cash shop on any level in an MMO kills any immersion and enjoyment from the game that I would otherwise get out of said game.
If the industry becomes nothing but cash shop ridden MMOs, so be it. But i'm not going to stick around and continue to play and pay greedy developers that want a license to print money for virtually no effort on their part. Despite that, I'm confident that there is growing demand from players on the side of sanity for some developers to realize that there's a market for MMOs with a reasonably higher sub so long as it has no cash shop.