And that right there is why we as gamers/consumers need to boycott these games like the plague. If the game bombs hard, they will re-think their position and change it. But nowadays far too many people go along with these changes just cause they want to play the game. It truly is sad watching games go from having a fun time, to seeing how much content they can cut and resell back to you.
Come on people wake up, we need to boycott this stupidily. Today its P2P and RMT, tomorrow its P2P and having to buy every item you need to even play the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some moronic company charges you like $5-10 just to even make a account for their game.
Sadly a boycott could actually backfire on the players.
The developers might understand the cause of the boycott, but its the suits and investors you have to worry about. They tend to be way too far out of touch and would likely associate the game failing with a lack of interest in the genre, making it increasingly harder for more developers to get into the MMO field.
But again cash shops would most likely be a non factor if the players didn't already prove they were profitable. I mean sure there are quite a few posters here who complain about cash shops, but there are now a couple of million gamers who don't and probably happily spend money on them. And thats the people they will focus on. In the long run we have no one to thank other than our fellow gamers.
Not really. Mmmorpg genre proved that it is profitable frequently very profitable many times , actually like you describe them "suits and investors" aren't so ignorant as you "paint" them.
Term "business model" is quite universal , and actually game failing to reach profit's target is more frequently than it is justyfied blamed on things like "business model" "marketting" "target group" ,etc by corporate higher-ups.
So voting with your wallet and boycotting games with business model you don't agree could be succesful and actually is ONLY option if you want to have any impact. Anything other than that will NOT work.
Other that sulking up and taking cash shop with open arms that is.
btw. to all people saying "till it is cosmetic , vanity ,etc cash shop is okay" , you WILL have P2P + PAY TO WIN cash shops. It is only logical to try it after community start to view P2P+vanity Cash Shops as a norm.
Would be totally illogical and plain stupid from business point of view to not try to push it further step by step in future.
devs used to be a group of people who made quality games because they loved it
devs now are a group of people who make half assed games to please the investors who want moar money... (and we give it to them) good for them bad for the gaming industry.
boycotting it wont do anything... since the people who grew up with MMORPGs, what i call real gamers, the UO/EQ even MUD generation are a big minority
compared to
your average john doe who works 40 hours /week and has more money than time so they pay big bucks to get ahead
or
your average 13 year old teenager with momy that can't say no to his honneybun schmookens FAT LAZY SON... (or daughter)
there is nothing left for the basement (i call it dungeon) dweller that feeds on doritoes and mountain dew (i prefer red bull)
ok in all seriousness
TL;DR people who have more money than time outnumber people who have more time than money.
TL;DR2, back then games where who can make the best quality game, now is who can make more money.
Okay, and?
Trying to rationalize that cash shops are a fact of some MMOs still doesn't justify the existence of a cash shop in a subscription game to me. Nor will it ever change the fact that the existence of a cash shop on any level in an MMO kills any immersion and enjoyment from the game that I would otherwise get out of said game.
If the industry becomes nothing but cash shop ridden MMOs, so be it. But i'm not going to stick around and continue to play and pay greedy developers that want a license to print money for virtually no effort on their part. Despite that, I'm confident that there is growing demand from players on the side of sanity for some developers to realize that there's a market for MMOs with a reasonably higher sub so long as it has no cash shop.
that's the problem, there isn't a market with reasonably higher sub...
we are a dying breed of gamers that prefer quality depth immersion and believe that gameplay > graphics.
if you give me 1 million $ and told me to invest it anywhere i wanted. i would RUN to a AAA Game developping company and FORCE them to make a cash shop with rainbow pissing unicorns that fly faster than any mount in game and sell it for 45$ and make it degradable within a month of game use so they have to buy it again. AND PEOPLE WILL STILL BUY IT AND I WILL BECOME RICH...
anyone with 3 hours to kill can download "blender" and the first 3 tutorials on their page and make an identical Monocle than the one in eve online total cost of production? lets be generous and give the 13 year old kid 50$ for the ownership of that monocle. 63 have been sold for 60$ and this in a game where the playerbase has shuned out the cash shop.
3780$ fro mthat monocle... that cost 50$ to make
now lets come back to that 1 million $ invested in that game with the flying unicorn that pisses rainbows quick math here and 13.2 million $ later i could not care less about the game and the people who just handed me their money. for all i care that game can be shut down and i can take 1 more million out of that 13 and make a new space game with rainbow pissing PINK spaceship that glows in the dark. and yet again people will buy it...
the new generation of gamers are GIVING their money to devs and investors for nothing in return. this needs to stop
but alas i dont see that happening
for once i wish that one isnt born every minute...
edit: browser did something stupid and switched paragraphs arround, fixed
Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra.
Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Others may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal.
But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops that sell vanity items hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra.
Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal.
But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it then pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
Originally posted by Foomerang Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra. Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal. But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
Originally posted by Foomerang Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra. Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal. But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposit isn't a payment, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
Originally posted by Requiamer Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by Requiamer
Originally posted by Foomerang Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra. Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal. But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job. well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra.
Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal.
But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
In an mmo you don't degrade the world your toon live in, like for a house or whatever physical, mmo are virtual stuff. Comparing them is quiet useless imo. In fact you pay for the game, and are supposed to pay sub for service, that are inculde into box price for any other software inculded many online games. The topic is well documented i guess.
Originally posted by Requiamer Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by Requiamer
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by Requiamer
Originally posted by Foomerang Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra. Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal. But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
In an mmo you don't degrade the world your toon live in, like for a house or whatever physical, mmo are virtual stuff. Comparing them is quiet useless imo. In fact you pay for the game, and are supposed to pay sub for service, that are inculde into box price for any other software inculded many online games. The topic is well documented i guess. well on that note, one of them is a luxury and the other is a necessity so whats your point again?
Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra.
Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Other may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal.
But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
In an mmo you don't degrade the world your toon live in, like for a house or whatever physical, mmo are virtual stuff. Comparing them is quiet useless imo. In fact you pay for the game, and are supposed to pay sub for service, that are inculde into box price for any other software inculded many online games. The topic is well documented i guess.
well on that note, one of them is a luxury and the other is a necessity so whats your point again?
I think the point is is that you cannot compare them because they are too different as you quite rightly pointed out.
I'm still not getting this whole I want to pay more stuff people are saying. The company are not doing you any favours putting in a cash shop + sub at all. Why the hell do people want it? I would be much happier with 2 different sub pricing plans.. if that really was necessary.
The cash shop is just something that they can work on to continually gain more money from be that through the introduction of "convenience" items like stat increases which may also be avaliable in game or not. Why should someone who cannot be bothered/ does not have time to play the game as much as someone else be as good as someone who does.
I like to run.. I don't QQ that I cannot have a gold medal though because I don't have the time to train. That's what games are meant to be.. The minute you start paying for rewards that you should acquire through playing the game stops becoming a game IMO.
You don't pay for your movie ticket, sit down, watch through most of the movie, only to have it stop before ending asking you to pay an extra $5 to get the final scenes for the "full experience" of the movie.
Which is the same for a subscription MMO. If I pay my $15 or whatever a month, I expect to get the whole damn game, not an unfinished one that conveniently sells the missing pieces at an additional cost.
But I can go to the movie pay my $8 to get in, sit in my seat and watch the previews, advertisements and the entire movie. Hell I can even sit through the credits for the blooper reel or the special scene in a Marvel movie, all for that $8.
They don't hand me popcorn, soda, nachos and candy at the door when I pay my $8, but I don't expect them to. I know my $8 gets me into the movie.
If I want the "full experience" of going to the movie, I know the $8 only gets me in the door. If I want the other extras I know, going in, I am going to have to pay for it. Suddenly that $8 movie trip quickly becomes $20 easliy just for the ticket, Soda and Popcorn, but again, I know that going in, so I bring a $20 bill for it, if I want the extras. If I don't I only bring the $8 to the door.
Either way, I get the same movie, but the experience I have is decided by me and how much I am willing to put into that visit.
well I get your points but it still does not make sense. If you pay 15 $ a month you should be able to get the whole package (minus expansions) sure what content you are going or not going to see is up to you but in theory you're gettiing the whole package.
Someone has to the art style for so called "vanity stuff" they're paid upfront and guess what? The 15 $ a month are also for that so you've already paid and then they want you to pay again, seems like rip off to me and one of the reason why there aren't vanity items.
I think TSW will end up being another p2w such as Age of Conan plus requiring spybook access.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Originally posted by dreamscaper What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I feel lucky?" Well do ya, punk?
Wait, that's not it. The question is, are the clothing items available in the cash shop worth paying the extra money? If so, buy them. If not, go with the items available in the game. You do have a choice.
The other thing is that Funcom isn't hiding anything from anyone. They're not being sneaky, or underhanded. The game's not even out yet, nobody has played it and they're telling everyone how they are going to run it. You're not sitting down to dinner and suddenly having to pay for silverware or anything like that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the problem here is that TSW is looking to crash and burn and maximize its profits at launch...nothing more. Yeah, folks thats what box purchase + cash shop + sub is. Reality is I can understand box purchase plus sub or box purchase and F2P with paid content expansion models. I can understand a game going f2p and having a cash shop to make money. But...yeash...this is Funcom just looking to fleace gamers.
as long as the cash shop is like Blizzard's cash shop which is Better looking mounts, unique useless pets, carnival hats etc I have no problem. If they try to pull what Star trek did which is Super duper unique ships with extra +1000 armor and weapons etc then I wont touch that game with a 10 feet pole...
I pay the game so I can enjoy the content for FREE with equal leverage as the other players. I dont want a cash shop player to come and kill me 10 times in a row cause they paid $30 dollars for a shotgun in the cash shop which shoots twice as fast....
as long as the cash shop is like Blizzard's cash shop which is Better looking mounts, unique useless pets, carnival hats etc I have no problem. If they try to pull what Star trek did which is Super duper unique ships with extra +1000 armor and weapons etc then I wont touch that game with a 10 feet pole...
I pay the game so I can enjoy the content for FREE with equal leverage as the other players. I dont want a cash shop player to come and kill me 10 times in a row cause they paid $30 dollars for a shotgun in the cash shop which shoots twice as fast....
you are not enjoying the content for FREE.. you are in fact paying for the game itself and a subscription, well renting. I get what you mean but don't fall into the trap thinking that you are getting something for nothing simply because you are paying a sub + box price
What I see a lot of posters here saying is basically "it's only vanity items, so who cares?"
1. For many players, character design and customization is the most important part of the game. It is NOT trivial to many people.
2. That aside, it very much DOES matter. My subscription dollars are essentially funding content I cannot peruse unless I pay a second time for it, unless you think that they magically compartmentalize their funds so that cash shop income/funding is sandboxed.
I'm still going to see the game at launch, but this sort of nonsense gives me a huge amount of reservation about playing it for the long term.
The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I feel lucky?" Well do ya, punk?
Wait, that's not it. The question is, are the clothing items available in the cash shop worth paying the extra money? If so, buy them. If not, go with the items available in the game. You do have a choice.
The other thing is that Funcom isn't hiding anything from anyone. They're not being sneaky, or underhanded. The game's not even out yet, nobody has played it and they're telling everyone how they are going to run it. You're not sitting down to dinner and suddenly having to pay for silverware or anything like that.
You will have in some time in another games that will come out a situation. When subscription game will have item shop with advantage items , better sword , morale increase scrolls ,etc , content will be made that you can complete it without those items , of course it will be much harder without but still possible.
Question will be , does those stat boosts and weapons are worth paying? Or it is better to go with items that are avabile in the game? You will have a choice.
Same in PvP. You will be able to buy skills , ranks and better gear for money or go with in game gear that will be just almost as good as store gear, like 2-3% worse only.
Game comanies will not hide nothing from anyone.
Don't worry when community will get used to have cosmetic items , mounts and stuff like that offered in item store and majority of player base will see it as normal , then game companies will slowly add housing as a thing that can be bough in store only. (as only part of playerbase want housing , so you know we can develop and put it in game but only at additional fee) , then crafting advancement will be buyable through store, because you know many people don't have time to develop their crafting through the game , but they do have money to buy crafting advancementts instead.
Why they should be punished in game becasuse they work hard in real life or were lucky to aquire money jby luck or from family?
Then not all players can dedicate themselves to work towards long goals in games , becasue lack of time , so then game shop will offer increase rare loot drop chance buff for a price. After all why someone has to be punished becasue he don't have time do do instances so often as others? But he have money and he don't want to aquire certain things later than those who have more time.
Then some armors and weapons will be in store , well you will be able to get them in game as well , so no problem. What's wrong with giving options to get those loot in store if you can get it in game also?
So don't worry it is all about giving people options. After all you don't have to buy all this things , to experience a game. Besides you're renting a game only.
See Star Trek item shop as future in all P2P games
Becasue you all don't mind and it would be purely unlogical for game companies to stop at cosmetic items.
Ask yourself a question . Why should they? Why? Players seem like to use item shops.
Cosmetic items, mounts, clothing, ect is fine with me. I am almost 40 and I personally can afford cash shop items easily, but wont play a game thats P2W or gives an edge from cash shops.
To me spending a few extra dollars a month ( if I choose ) to change the look of my toon, buy a new mount, another char slot, ect. isnt a bad option to have. Buying the Uber Katana of Badassery is not an option I want in a game. It changes the whole dynamics of the game and the community playing it.
I know I dont have time to be with the top dogs, progression type guilds, and I am ok with not having the best of the best gear. IMO in an MMO thats what the game is to some people, and to others ( like me ) its not. If you want the best stuff, then put in the time, if you dont have the time, then focus on other aspects of the game.
Buying the best items in the game from cash shops is a lose lose scenario for everyone.
I still find it amusing that the pro cash shop people keep saying "Well the cash shop is optional, if you don't like it, don't use it!"
Well, the games said cash shops are in are also optional. If I don't like them, for reasons like they have a cash shop, then I choose not to play them.
I still find it amusing that the pro cash shop people keep saying "Well the cash shop is optional, if you don't like it, don't use it!"
Well, the games said cash shops are in are also optional. If I don't like them, for reasons like they have a cash shop, then I choose not to play them.
Funny how that works.
There is nothing wrong with your logic, don't like? Don't play. How simpler can it get?
And again, I am not pro cash shops, I think it's up to the players to vote how games should be by exactly not playing those games they feel are a bad example of what they think an mmo should be.
If the trend is that CS's are popular, who's fault is it? The developer..nope. The player. Dev's only respond to what the demand is.
You're against CS fine, finding it funny others have no problem with it is kind of condescending, let them enjoy it if they want. You really don't have swallow the bitter pill if you so choose to.
I still find it amusing that the pro cash shop people keep saying "Well the cash shop is optional, if you don't like it, don't use it!"
Well, the games said cash shops are in are also optional. If I don't like them, for reasons like they have a cash shop, then I choose not to play them.
Funny how that works.
There is nothing wrong with your logic, don't like? Don't play. How simpler can it get?
And again, I am not pro cash shops, I think it's up to the players to vote how games should be by exactly not playing those games they feel are a bad example of what they think an mmo should be.
If the trend is that CS's are popular, who's fault is it? The developer..nope. The player. Dev's only respond to what the demand is.
You're against CS fine, finding it funny others have no problem with it is kind of condescending, let them enjoy it if they want. You really don't have swallow the bitter pill if you so choose to.
Yeah and that is kinda sad , simply because people like me who don't tolerate cash shops in games that play they will be left with no games to play. Well seems that what it is gonna to be.
Just remember to expect additional and optional content like:
-,content in form of additional races ("better to have buy some races in store than don't have them avabile at all in game!") ,
- housing only buyable in cash shop ("better to have....than not have it at all"),
- some small pay to win items ("well some people playing basketball with friends in real life have semi-professional 300$ shoes and other that don't care play basketball in 10$ ordianry gym shoes , so why it should not be in game like that?") ,
- some store-only means of travel ("you know not everyone can afford a plane and they choose a bus instead so why that should not be in game like that? after all you will be still able to get there, just will have to spend some more time travelling") ,
Of course that will be in future, people still have to get used to this in P2P AAA games. It already is in F2P games , but you know frequently f2p games have lesser budgets , and people like quality , so 15$ sub is for accesing basic version of quality AAA mmorpg , with item shop unlocking additional content. You don't have to use it noone is forcing you to.
Yeah and that is kinda sad , simply because people like me who don't tolerate cash shops in games that play they will be left with no games to play. Well seems that what it is gonna to be.
Just remember to expect additional and optional content like:
-,content in form of additional races ("better to have buy some races in store than don't have them avabile at all in game!") ,
- housing only buyable in cash shop ("better to have....than not have it at all"),
- some small pay to win items ("well some people playing basketball with friends in real life have semi-professional 300$ shoes and other that don't care play basketball in 10$ ordianry gym shoes , so why it should not be in game like that?") ,
- some store-only means of travel ("you know not everyone can afford a plane and they choose a bus instead so why that should not be in game like that? after all you will be still able to get there, just will have to spend some more time travelling") ,
Of course that will be in future, people still have to get used to this in P2P AAA games. It already is in F2P games , but you know frequently f2p games have lesser budgets , and people like quality , so 15$ sub is for accesing basic version of quality AAA mmorpg , with item shop unlocking additional content. You don't have to use it noone is forcing you to.
With this happy thought , I am done
In this, I sadly agree. It does seem the direction mmo's are going and I personally dread the day where CS's become Pay2Win.
We're not there yet, and hopefully with enough effort and self-restraint, those of us that would rather not have CS's can let them know that a game without that crap could and would be successful on its own.
However my dislike of cash shops will not deter me to play a game I think I might enjoy, no matter the ethics of it since the choice is still mine. The day it becomes too much of an imbalance in my eyes, that's the day I shall quit.
I just find it also sad that those against CS's cannot accept that some of us will still play those games no matter what because atm the CS do not have those win items yet.
I respect your disdain for them and your passionate outcry for the omission of cash shops in P2P mmo's. I just don't believe I should be labeled or judged for not caring if they are there or not.
In this, I sadly agree. It does seem the direction mmo's are going and I personally dread the day where CS's become Pay2Win.
We're not there yet, and hopefully with enough effort and self-restraint, those of us that would rather not have CS's can let them know that a game without that crap could and would be successful on its own.
However my dislike of cash shops will not deter me to play a game I think I might enjoy, no matter the ethics of it since the choice is still mine. The day it becomes too much of an imbalance in my eyes, that's the day I shall quit.
I just find it also sad that those against CS's cannot accept that some of us will still play those games no matter what because atm the CS do not have those win items yet.
I respect your disdain for them and your passionate outcry for the omission of cash shops in P2P mmo's. I just don't believe I should be labeled or judged for not caring if they are there or not.
Huh? You're free to do anything you want. What you need my acceptance for? Besides I think I had not said that I am not accepting your choice.
Seems you know that already , but I will say that anyway. You realize that by playing a game with vanity CS even if you will never use it and will be persoanlly against it will strenghten P2W cash shops in P2P games in future?
As for ethics , you don't have to say that it is obvious that choice is yours and only yours , whatever the ethics are.
Huh? You're free to do anything you want. What you need my acceptance for? Besides I think I had not said that I am not accepting your choice.
Seems you know that already , but I will say that anyway. You realize that by playing a game with vanity CS even if you will never use it and will be persoanlly against it will strenghten P2W cash shops in P2P games in future?
As for ethics , you don't have to say that it is obvious that choice is yours and only yours , whatever the ethics are.
You misunderstand, I was more or less refering to the discussion of this thread in general and the debate going on. Nothing directed at you personally.
I need acceptance from no one for my choices.
I see what you mean about playing games with CS's even if i don't use them, but if everyone abstained from purchasing there wouldn't be any in later games.
Boycotting the whole game is an interesting idea but only if enough players do it. Reality sees it otherwise atm I'm afraid.
Comments
that's the problem, there isn't a market with reasonably higher sub...
we are a dying breed of gamers that prefer quality depth immersion and believe that gameplay > graphics.
if you give me 1 million $ and told me to invest it anywhere i wanted. i would RUN to a AAA Game developping company and FORCE them to make a cash shop with rainbow pissing unicorns that fly faster than any mount in game and sell it for 45$ and make it degradable within a month of game use so they have to buy it again. AND PEOPLE WILL STILL BUY IT AND I WILL BECOME RICH...
anyone with 3 hours to kill can download "blender" and the first 3 tutorials on their page and make an identical Monocle than the one in eve online total cost of production? lets be generous and give the 13 year old kid 50$ for the ownership of that monocle. 63 have been sold for 60$ and this in a game where the playerbase has shuned out the cash shop.
3780$ fro mthat monocle... that cost 50$ to make
now lets come back to that 1 million $ invested in that game with the flying unicorn that pisses rainbows quick math here and 13.2 million $ later i could not care less about the game and the people who just handed me their money. for all i care that game can be shut down and i can take 1 more million out of that 13 and make a new space game with rainbow pissing PINK spaceship that glows in the dark. and yet again people will buy it...
the new generation of gamers are GIVING their money to devs and investors for nothing in return. this needs to stop
but alas i dont see that happening
for once i wish that one isnt born every minute...
edit: browser did something stupid and switched paragraphs arround, fixed
Whether we like it or not, fact is we rent mmos. We dont own them like a typical offline game. Just like renting an apartment. Maintenance will fix our plumbing, replace our garbage disposal, reseal the windows etc. Thats part of the agreement when we pay rent every month. But if you want a parking space, thats extra. This is a similar situation with mmos. We agree to pay a monthly fee (read rent) and in exchange we expect regular patches and bug fixes etc. But if you want a special hat, thats extra.
Some of us may view a parking space as a mandatory feature that should be included in the rent. Others may not own a car or ride a bike or take the bus so its not that big of a deal.
But like I said in an earlier post, cash shops that sell vanity items hurt crafting and player driven economy so thats my only real prob with them.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it then pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
a deposit isn't a payment, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
In an mmo you don't degrade the world your toon live in, like for a house or whatever physical, mmo are virtual stuff. Comparing them is quiet useless imo. In fact you pay for the game, and are supposed to pay sub for service, that are inculde into box price for any other software inculded many online games. The topic is well documented i guess.
Well when you rent a flat you don't pay for it they pay a rent. In mmo you pay a box then a sub, even though many old school mmo have very cheap box price, if not free.
yeah you do. its called a deposit. and you rarely get it back
a deposite isn't a payement, it is given back at the end, it is just a security, i know renting is my job.
well even if you do get it all back, which is rare, you still pay application fees
In an mmo you don't degrade the world your toon live in, like for a house or whatever physical, mmo are virtual stuff. Comparing them is quiet useless imo. In fact you pay for the game, and are supposed to pay sub for service, that are inculde into box price for any other software inculded many online games. The topic is well documented i guess.
well on that note, one of them is a luxury and the other is a necessity so whats your point again?
I think the point is is that you cannot compare them because they are too different as you quite rightly pointed out.
I'm still not getting this whole I want to pay more stuff people are saying. The company are not doing you any favours putting in a cash shop + sub at all. Why the hell do people want it? I would be much happier with 2 different sub pricing plans.. if that really was necessary.
The cash shop is just something that they can work on to continually gain more money from be that through the introduction of "convenience" items like stat increases which may also be avaliable in game or not. Why should someone who cannot be bothered/ does not have time to play the game as much as someone else be as good as someone who does.
I like to run.. I don't QQ that I cannot have a gold medal though because I don't have the time to train. That's what games are meant to be.. The minute you start paying for rewards that you should acquire through playing the game stops becoming a game IMO.
But I can go to the movie pay my $8 to get in, sit in my seat and watch the previews, advertisements and the entire movie. Hell I can even sit through the credits for the blooper reel or the special scene in a Marvel movie, all for that $8.
They don't hand me popcorn, soda, nachos and candy at the door when I pay my $8, but I don't expect them to. I know my $8 gets me into the movie.
If I want the "full experience" of going to the movie, I know the $8 only gets me in the door. If I want the other extras I know, going in, I am going to have to pay for it. Suddenly that $8 movie trip quickly becomes $20 easliy just for the ticket, Soda and Popcorn, but again, I know that going in, so I bring a $20 bill for it, if I want the extras. If I don't I only bring the $8 to the door.
Either way, I get the same movie, but the experience I have is decided by me and how much I am willing to put into that visit.
well I get your points but it still does not make sense. If you pay 15 $ a month you should be able to get the whole package (minus expansions) sure what content you are going or not going to see is up to you but in theory you're gettiing the whole package.
Someone has to the art style for so called "vanity stuff" they're paid upfront and guess what? The 15 $ a month are also for that so you've already paid and then they want you to pay again, seems like rip off to me and one of the reason why there aren't vanity items.
I think TSW will end up being another p2w such as Age of Conan plus requiring spybook access.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I feel lucky?" Well do ya, punk?
Wait, that's not it. The question is, are the clothing items available in the cash shop worth paying the extra money? If so, buy them. If not, go with the items available in the game. You do have a choice.
The other thing is that Funcom isn't hiding anything from anyone. They're not being sneaky, or underhanded. The game's not even out yet, nobody has played it and they're telling everyone how they are going to run it. You're not sitting down to dinner and suddenly having to pay for silverware or anything like that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the problem here is that TSW is looking to crash and burn and maximize its profits at launch...nothing more. Yeah, folks thats what box purchase + cash shop + sub is. Reality is I can understand box purchase plus sub or box purchase and F2P with paid content expansion models. I can understand a game going f2p and having a cash shop to make money. But...yeash...this is Funcom just looking to fleace gamers.
as long as the cash shop is like Blizzard's cash shop which is Better looking mounts, unique useless pets, carnival hats etc I have no problem. If they try to pull what Star trek did which is Super duper unique ships with extra +1000 armor and weapons etc then I wont touch that game with a 10 feet pole...
I pay the game so I can enjoy the content for FREE with equal leverage as the other players. I dont want a cash shop player to come and kill me 10 times in a row cause they paid $30 dollars for a shotgun in the cash shop which shoots twice as fast....
you are not enjoying the content for FREE.. you are in fact paying for the game itself and a subscription, well renting. I get what you mean but don't fall into the trap thinking that you are getting something for nothing simply because you are paying a sub + box price
You will have in some time in another games that will come out a situation. When subscription game will have item shop with advantage items , better sword , morale increase scrolls ,etc , content will be made that you can complete it without those items , of course it will be much harder without but still possible.
Question will be , does those stat boosts and weapons are worth paying? Or it is better to go with items that are avabile in the game? You will have a choice.
Same in PvP. You will be able to buy skills , ranks and better gear for money or go with in game gear that will be just almost as good as store gear, like 2-3% worse only.
Game comanies will not hide nothing from anyone.
Don't worry when community will get used to have cosmetic items , mounts and stuff like that offered in item store and majority of player base will see it as normal , then game companies will slowly add housing as a thing that can be bough in store only. (as only part of playerbase want housing , so you know we can develop and put it in game but only at additional fee) , then crafting advancement will be buyable through store, because you know many people don't have time to develop their crafting through the game , but they do have money to buy crafting advancementts instead.
Why they should be punished in game becasuse they work hard in real life or were lucky to aquire money jby luck or from family?
Then not all players can dedicate themselves to work towards long goals in games , becasue lack of time , so then game shop will offer increase rare loot drop chance buff for a price. After all why someone has to be punished becasue he don't have time do do instances so often as others? But he have money and he don't want to aquire certain things later than those who have more time.
Then some armors and weapons will be in store , well you will be able to get them in game as well , so no problem. What's wrong with giving options to get those loot in store if you can get it in game also?
So don't worry it is all about giving people options. After all you don't have to buy all this things , to experience a game. Besides you're renting a game only.
See Star Trek item shop as future in all P2P games
Becasue you all don't mind and it would be purely unlogical for game companies to stop at cosmetic items.
Ask yourself a question . Why should they? Why? Players seem like to use item shops.
Have a nice day.
As long as its not P2W i have no problem with it.
Cosmetic items, mounts, clothing, ect is fine with me. I am almost 40 and I personally can afford cash shop items easily, but wont play a game thats P2W or gives an edge from cash shops.
To me spending a few extra dollars a month ( if I choose ) to change the look of my toon, buy a new mount, another char slot, ect. isnt a bad option to have. Buying the Uber Katana of Badassery is not an option I want in a game. It changes the whole dynamics of the game and the community playing it.
I know I dont have time to be with the top dogs, progression type guilds, and I am ok with not having the best of the best gear. IMO in an MMO thats what the game is to some people, and to others ( like me ) its not. If you want the best stuff, then put in the time, if you dont have the time, then focus on other aspects of the game.
Buying the best items in the game from cash shops is a lose lose scenario for everyone.
I still find it amusing that the pro cash shop people keep saying "Well the cash shop is optional, if you don't like it, don't use it!"
Well, the games said cash shops are in are also optional. If I don't like them, for reasons like they have a cash shop, then I choose not to play them.
Funny how that works.
There is nothing wrong with your logic, don't like? Don't play. How simpler can it get?
And again, I am not pro cash shops, I think it's up to the players to vote how games should be by exactly not playing those games they feel are a bad example of what they think an mmo should be.
If the trend is that CS's are popular, who's fault is it? The developer..nope. The player. Dev's only respond to what the demand is.
You're against CS fine, finding it funny others have no problem with it is kind of condescending, let them enjoy it if they want. You really don't have swallow the bitter pill if you so choose to.
Yeah and that is kinda sad , simply because people like me who don't tolerate cash shops in games that play they will be left with no games to play. Well seems that what it is gonna to be.
Just remember to expect additional and optional content like:
-,content in form of additional races ("better to have buy some races in store than don't have them avabile at all in game!") ,
- housing only buyable in cash shop ("better to have....than not have it at all"),
- some small pay to win items ("well some people playing basketball with friends in real life have semi-professional 300$ shoes and other that don't care play basketball in 10$ ordianry gym shoes , so why it should not be in game like that?") ,
- some store-only means of travel ("you know not everyone can afford a plane and they choose a bus instead so why that should not be in game like that? after all you will be still able to get there, just will have to spend some more time travelling") ,
Of course that will be in future, people still have to get used to this in P2P AAA games. It already is in F2P games , but you know frequently f2p games have lesser budgets , and people like quality , so 15$ sub is for accesing basic version of quality AAA mmorpg , with item shop unlocking additional content. You don't have to use it noone is forcing you to.
With this happy thought , I am done
In this, I sadly agree. It does seem the direction mmo's are going and I personally dread the day where CS's become Pay2Win.
We're not there yet, and hopefully with enough effort and self-restraint, those of us that would rather not have CS's can let them know that a game without that crap could and would be successful on its own.
However my dislike of cash shops will not deter me to play a game I think I might enjoy, no matter the ethics of it since the choice is still mine. The day it becomes too much of an imbalance in my eyes, that's the day I shall quit.
I just find it also sad that those against CS's cannot accept that some of us will still play those games no matter what because atm the CS do not have those win items yet.
I respect your disdain for them and your passionate outcry for the omission of cash shops in P2P mmo's. I just don't believe I should be labeled or judged for not caring if they are there or not.
To bad I was looking forward to this game. I wont play a sub based with a cash shop. One or the other only.
Huh? You're free to do anything you want. What you need my acceptance for? Besides I think I had not said that I am not accepting your choice.
Seems you know that already , but I will say that anyway. You realize that by playing a game with vanity CS even if you will never use it and will be persoanlly against it will strenghten P2W cash shops in P2P games in future?
As for ethics , you don't have to say that it is obvious that choice is yours and only yours , whatever the ethics are.
You misunderstand, I was more or less refering to the discussion of this thread in general and the debate going on. Nothing directed at you personally.
I need acceptance from no one for my choices.
I see what you mean about playing games with CS's even if i don't use them, but if everyone abstained from purchasing there wouldn't be any in later games.
Boycotting the whole game is an interesting idea but only if enough players do it. Reality sees it otherwise atm I'm afraid.
God damnit.. I was really looking forward to this game...
I'll not be supporting a Subs Plus model with any of my money. Cash shops are fine but not in a game where I am required to pay a subscription fee.