In case the OP hasn't heard, Bioware IS making more single player games. Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 3 are two titles that everyone is aware of.
Bioware isn't Blizzard, they can make more than one good game at a time and see a timely release date for their games (seriously, Starcraft 2 and Diablo III have been in the works for how long now?)
Can't speak for Diablo 3, but wasn't Starcraft 2 announced in 2007 and released in 2010? And SWTOR was announced in 2008 and and will see a release date around late 2011 or 2012. Considering there is likely a huge budget difference between the two I would figure those are about on par for the number of people working on either game.
I don't think the OP's point is that they can't make more single player RPG's but in their opinion (and one I share) the money would have been better spent making single player games than the kind of MMO SWTOR appears to be.
All of Starcraft 2 isn't even out yet. They split it into three different games, remember?
Yes, but let's say they kept the same budget they have had and same number of people working on it and realeased it all at once and it launched in let's say 2016... that would still probably be about the same pace as SWTOR launching in 2011 or 2012 with its budget and staff. But again you miss the point of this discussion because for some reason you want to argue about Blizzard vs. BW when that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP's point or mine for that matter.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
How many singleplayer games have end-game? I mean, you can just play the story part and then uninstall the game like you do with singleplayer games, it does not even matter how the end-game is from a singleplayer perspective.
Flashpoints are throughout SWTOR and are not endgame, but appear to not be solo-friendly. Which would mean if you played SWTOR as a singleplayer game you'd be missing a huge chunk of the gameplay. It is not a singleplayer game with mutlplayer options. It is an MMO with singleplayer story in it.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
It is invalid also from the standpoint that the same people doing the MMO are not particularly those doing their single players games. BW is currently working on at least two other new titles now besides SWTOR and has release WHILE working SWTOR serveral titles. This whole debate is somewhat out of touch with what is actually happening.
Shows how little people know about game making company's.
While lead programmers and writers work on multiple tittles at a time the grunds do most of the actual work ,the nameless faces that code and design day in and out like a random canning food production company does.
EA is a big big company and there is no lack of funding toward SW:ToR and other "Ionic" bioware games. there are mutiple tittles in the works.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that the resources devoted to SWTOR wouldn't be making something else if SWTOR was never made ?
Sure, BW made other games, they made ME2, they made a horribly rushed DA2. But if they didn't make SWTOR the resources doing it would have very likely made KOTOR3. Heck, it would probably even have an expansion or two as this point. DA2 also probably wouldn't have been terrible.
Yes, companies have lots of resources, but those resources are FINITE. Talented resources are also pretty rare. BW is not just some infinite pool of resources that you put money in and churns out games. There are only so many talented people to go around.
Yes. Mainly because they founded Bioware Austin, which they never would have done if they weren't developing an MMO, and they had to sell the company to EA to fund SWTOR which they never would have done if they never made an MMO.
DA2 was rushed, but I think that had absolutely nothing to do with TOR and instead had to do with them simply not giving themselves enough time to make it. They seem to have learned their lesson as they delayed ME3 by six months.
And as someone pointed out, they made ME 1 and 2 and DA 1 and 2 in the time they were making TOR so they haven't decreased their output of single player games at all.
Heheh so you're saying that if BW didn't start making SWTOR, they never would have had to sell the company to EA? Yeah I would have taken that in a hot second .
It doesn't always happen, but oftentimes when business merge together, something just goes wrong and they fail. In fact, the failure rate of business mergers/acquisitions has been estimated somewhere between 50% - 80%(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=532857 ).
For some reason, businesses just have a hard time of holding on to what made them successful after they merge or are acquired. I hope this doesn't happen to BW, but it's a real possibility. BW has already got a lot of flack for dumbing their games down to try to make them appeal to a larger audience. I definitely saw this with DA2. I can't say that it was EA's influence that caused the issues with DA2, but they were definitely there.
Also, expansion is another thing that some business don't survive well. Some business are able to expand their operations brilliantly and keep up their standard of quality, whereas the products of other businesses start to lack in quality after the business expands.
Remember that all "Bioware" is, is a brand name. There is no magic power in that name other than consumer perception. If Bioware decides to expand into another location and call it "Bioware Austin" then it is up to the management of Bioware to actually instill the corporate culture and values that make Bioware successful into its new location. This site has some good info on the problems typically encountered in business expansion: http://www.enotes.com/small-business-encyclopedia/business-expansion.
Basically what I'm saying is...a game developer is not an infinite font of games. If they make a decision to start a big project it will have an impact. Either they can do their big project and not do other projects they were planning or they can expand.
Expanding has risks associated with it, and requires a lot of capital. Capital that must often be obtained through selling equity, incurring debt, or being acquired. All of these have risks associated with them as well.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
Think of it like this...
Once you finish the single player game, you can then bring your character online and play with your friends or against other players in multiplayer...
Or like in any single player RPG, play through again as another class or race make different story choices etc.
Shows how little people know about game making company's.
While lead programmers and writers work on multiple tittles at a time the grunds do most of the actual work ,the nameless faces that code and design day in and out like a random canning food production company does.
EA is a big big company and there is no lack of funding toward SW:ToR and other "Ionic" bioware games. there are mutiple tittles in the works.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that the resources devoted to SWTOR wouldn't be making something else if SWTOR was never made ?
Sure, BW made other games, they made ME2, they made a horribly rushed DA2. But if they didn't make SWTOR the resources doing it would have very likely made KOTOR3. Heck, it would probably even have an expansion or two as this point. DA2 also probably wouldn't have been terrible.
Yes, companies have lots of resources, but those resources are FINITE. Talented resources are also pretty rare. BW is not just some infinite pool of resources that you put money in and churns out games. There are only so many talented people to go around.
I didn't particularly like DA2 but I did play through it (didn't like one either). But rushed ? I didn't get that feeling from the game, overuse of backgrounds? Sure, a more Mass Effect approach over a BG or NWN one? Again sure. Though they did say before release they went that route due to feedback so I expected that anyway. And of course last we have the age old fantasy tale we've all read over and over again.
I think where a majority of the bad press (both professional and from fandom) has arisen. Is the fact it's not as traditional as DA1 and went a more actiony route like ME2. Because of that, people want to chalk DA2 up to be far worse than it was. Most I see doing this seem to want to push an idea that Bioware has changed due to EA's evil hand, for starters Bioware's RPGs have always been on the restrictive side as far as world layout goes (exploration). They've also always used cut and paste work for dungeons and other interiors.
DA2 DA1 ME1 ME2 all had focus where Bioware has always shined, likeable and/or interesting characters and a heavy emphasis on story. Bioware Game-play has always been on the generic side (by that I mean use what works, focus more on presentation).
As for your question in the OP, No, as others have said the creation of this studio and project, really hasn't slowed them down on the single player front.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For some reason, businesses just have a hard time of holding on to what made them successful after they merge or are acquired. I hope this doesn't happen to BW, but it's a real possibility. BW has already got a lot of flack for dumbing their games down to try to make them appeal to a larger audience. I definitely saw this with DA2. I can't say that it was EA's influence that caused the issues with DA2, but they were definitely there.
I'd love to have someone finally explain to me how ME2 is a "dumbed down shooter" when compared to ME1?
I mean... I've played both, a hell of a lot, and the game mechanics are pretty much exactly the same...
Inventory, upgrades/crafting, and level up mechanics are different, and I did like the ME1 level up mechanics a lot more, but besides that....
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
Think of it like this...
Once you finish the single player game, you can then bring your character online and play with your friends or against other players in multiplayer...
Or like in any single player RPG, play through again as another class or race make different story choices etc.
But like I said, it doesn't appear that this is a single player game - Flashpoints require more than one player and appear to be a pretty big part of the content. Again, this is not a single player game with mutliplayer options, it is an MMO with single player story added. Now you can disagree with me if that sounds like fun or not, but I don't think we can change what the game is that BW is putting out there.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
Think of it like this...
Once you finish the single player game, you can then bring your character online and play with your friends or against other players in multiplayer...
Or like in any single player RPG, play through again as another class or race make different story choices etc.
And don't forget you get to pay $15 to play your single player game as well .
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
How many singleplayer games have end-game? I mean, you can just play the story part and then uninstall the game like you do with singleplayer games, it does not even matter how the end-game is from a singleplayer perspective.
Flashpoints are throughout SWTOR and are not endgame, but appear to not be solo-friendly. Which would mean if you played SWTOR as a singleplayer game you'd be missing a huge chunk of the gameplay. It is not a singleplayer game with mutlplayer options. It is an MMO with singleplayer story in it.
Yes that's what I said, it's a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it. Flashpoints and battlegrounds etc are not required to play through the story, and many people "miss" content on purpose if they dont like group content or pvp or whatever. If you play only singleplayer content yes ofcourse you are going to "skip" something non-mandatory but my point is you can play 8 fully voiced singleplayer stories if you so wish, no it does not make the multiplayer side to go away but it is possible to ignore it.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
How many singleplayer games have end-game? I mean, you can just play the story part and then uninstall the game like you do with singleplayer games, it does not even matter how the end-game is from a singleplayer perspective.
Flashpoints are throughout SWTOR and are not endgame, but appear to not be solo-friendly. Which would mean if you played SWTOR as a singleplayer game you'd be missing a huge chunk of the gameplay. It is not a singleplayer game with mutlplayer options. It is an MMO with singleplayer story in it.
Yes that's what I said, it's a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it. Flashpoints and battlegrounds etc are not required to play through the story, and many people "miss" content on purpose if they dont like group content or pvp or whatever. If you play only singleplayer content yes ofcourse you are going to "skip" something non-mandatory but my point is you can play 8 fully voiced singleplayer stories if you so wish, no it does not make the multiplayer side to go away but it is possible to ignore it.
Okay, so I really do not mean to rile up anyone with this thread, I just want to see how people feel about this.
Then dont post these kinds of threads! Dont worry about what other people think and just think for yourself. The world will go on without other people trying to micro manage other people or worry about what they think of you.
I love Bioware and I love many of their games. I spent I don't know how long on BG2, NWN, and KOTOR; I really regard these games as some of the greatest RPGs ever.
Now see Im suspicious as many I dislike/hate SWTOR threads begin like this......
I'm looking forward to SWTOR as well, but I can't help but wish that BW would have made more single player games instead of devoting so much time and resources to an MMORPG. The thing I'm looking forward to the most in SWTOR is the single player aspect of the game, the story. The MMORPG aspect of the game doesn't really excite me that much.
You do remember that Bioware is still making single player games correct? DA3 is in the works also. If bioware choose to make a mmorpg its up to you the individual to take it or leave it.
I worry a bit that the story for SWTOR may not be as "epic" and fleshed out as the story of a single player game simply because you can't really be the center of the universe in an MMORPG. Instead of playing as "Commander Shepard" or the son of Bhaal, you're going to be playing as "Smuggler" or "Jedi."
Before making assumptions play the game 1st. There are enough people speculating on this site and others. Lets just use good ole facts to talk about the game.
So in conclusion, I'm probably going to enjoy SWTOR, but I think I would have enjoyed the "I don't know how many" SPRPGs that BW would have made if they didn't do SWTOR much more.
Again its not your decision unless you decide to get employed with Bioware and work your way up the corporate ladder to CEO. Again just enjoy thier games if you like them. If not there are many other options out there.
You have to be an MD to be a CEO at Bioware. It's in their corporate constitution or something. :P
Thoughts? Opinions?
Thought? Opinions? It looks very suspicious that this is just another buttered up-"angled" form of I dont like SWTOR thread. Im not trying to be mean bro but please stop speculating ot writing about things you or I have no control over (except with wallet).
***Darth Rabbid is photo'd by the republic papparazzi when he goes on vacation with Satele Shan!***
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
Think of it like this...
Once you finish the single player game, you can then bring your character online and play with your friends or against other players in multiplayer...
Or like in any single player RPG, play through again as another class or race make different story choices etc.
And don't forget you get to pay $15 to play your single player game as well .
If you decide to play more than a month yes, personally I cant remember when I played a singleplayer game longer than that but if someone does, then yes it's downside, but consider the game having 8 full length and voiced singleplayer stories instead of the usual 1 in normal SP games
But like I said, it doesn't appear that this is a single player game - Flashpoints require more than one player and appear to be a pretty big part of the content. Again, this is not a single player game with mutliplayer options, it is an MMO with single player story added. Now you can disagree with me if that sounds like fun or not, but I don't think we can change what the game is that BW is putting out there.
As with all things in a MMO, no one forces you to do anything. That's the great part.
I am very sure you could do nothing but your solo class story line and still get to max level and end up with some nice gear and all the rest of the RPG staples.
If you want the "best" gear and such and you want to see 100% of the content, then yes you will have to play with others.
It's kinda invalid poll imo since TOR is a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it?
See I don't think it is though. It appears a great deal of the game (especially end game) is not solo friendly, which would mean it is not singleplayer. Like I said in my first comment, I think I would have prefered this to be a single player with multiplayer option rather than what appears to be a multiplayer with singleplayer stories peppered through out.
How many singleplayer games have end-game? I mean, you can just play the story part and then uninstall the game like you do with singleplayer games, it does not even matter how the end-game is from a singleplayer perspective.
Flashpoints are throughout SWTOR and are not endgame, but appear to not be solo-friendly. Which would mean if you played SWTOR as a singleplayer game you'd be missing a huge chunk of the gameplay. It is not a singleplayer game with mutlplayer options. It is an MMO with singleplayer story in it.
Yes that's what I said, it's a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it. Flashpoints and battlegrounds etc are not required to play through the story, and many people "miss" content on purpose if they dont like group content or pvp or whatever. If you play only singleplayer content yes ofcourse you are going to "skip" something non-mandatory but my point is you can play 8 fully voiced singleplayer stories if you so wish, no it does not make the multiplayer side to go away but it is possible to ignore it.
I'd love to have someone finally explain to me how ME2 is a "dumbed down shooter" when compared to ME1?
I mean... I've played both, a hell of a lot, and the game mechanics are pretty much exactly the same...
Inventory, upgrades/crafting, and level up mechanics are different, and I did like the ME1 level up mechanics a lot more, but besides that....
Seriously?
Explain to me please k thx
The upgrade mechanics of weapons and armor was dumbed down a bit, they integrated the ammo rounds with specific skills in ME2 like the cryo ammo rounds dont exist and u can't upgrade companions armor. And essentially that makes upgrading a weapon really simple, more dmg then swap it out. I'm not sure if picking up ammo rounds falls under the "dumbed down" description but I did like the overheating mechanic of ME1. Also, the graphics of ME1 seemed better. On my system ME1 looked like a 1080p movie
Okay, so I really do not mean to rile up anyone with this thread, I just want to see how people feel about this.
I love Bioware and I love many of their games. I spent I don't know how long on BG2, NWN, and KOTOR; I really regard these games as some of the greatest RPGs ever.
I'm looking forward to SWTOR as well, but I can't help but wish that BW would have made more single player games instead of devoting so much time and resources to an MMORPG. The thing I'm looking forward to the most in SWTOR is the single player aspect of the game, the story. The MMORPG aspect of the game doesn't really excite me that much.
I worry a bit that the story for SWTOR may not be as "epic" and fleshed out as the story of a single player game simply because you can't really be the center of the universe in an MMORPG. Instead of playing as "Commander Shepard" or the son of Bhaal, you're going to be playing as "Smuggler" or "Jedi."
So in conclusion, I'm probably going to enjoy SWTOR, but I think I would have enjoyed the "I don't know how many" SPRPGs that BW would have made if they didn't do SWTOR much more.
Thoughts? Opinions?
I right there with you man. When Bioware first announced that they were working on an Old Republic MMORPG, which would be story-based, with full voice-over, and 3 KOTOR games worth of content, I was hyped. But then I started seeing gameplay videos and it's the same old MMORPG combat, with a watered down story. I'd of rather had KOTOR quality story telling in a spRPG, than a MMORPG with watered down content, and the same old same old formula we've been playing for almost a decade.
The problem is, judging by Biowares trend of dumbing down their games and snipping away at exploration, I doubt their single player RPG's would be that good. I think Mass Effect was their last great game. Dragon Age's story and etc. wasn't bad, but exploration wasn't great either. The story and exploration sucked in Dragon Age 2. There was less exploration in DA2 than in 1 if that was even possible.
I think you need to go back and play games like KOTOR and Jade Empire again if you think Bioware ever offered huge exploration and anything but the style of combat you see in TOR.
For some reason, businesses just have a hard time of holding on to what made them successful after they merge or are acquired. I hope this doesn't happen to BW, but it's a real possibility. BW has already got a lot of flack for dumbing their games down to try to make them appeal to a larger audience. I definitely saw this with DA2. I can't say that it was EA's influence that caused the issues with DA2, but they were definitely there.
I'd love to have someone finally explain to me how ME2 is a "dumbed down shooter" when compared to ME1?
I mean... I've played both, a hell of a lot, and the game mechanics are pretty much exactly the same...
Inventory, upgrades/crafting, and level up mechanics are different, and I did like the ME1 level up mechanics a lot more, but besides that....
Seriously?
Explain to me please k thx
I was talking about DA2, not ME2 .
I never had a big problem with ME2, but I think some people complained abou the lack of equipment options.
If you're interested in the problems I had with DA2...
1. Less abilities/spells than DA1, and FAR less abilities/spells than NWN.
2. FREQUENT recycling of map textures. I mean, almost every house or dungeon used one of the same 4 or 5 maps.
3. Combat looked good, but was fast to the point of insanity if unpaused. You had to pause almost every millisecond to plan your actions on the harder difficulties.
4. Difficulty scaling was way off in places. I remember I was breezing through fights on hard mode, then I got to this one fight in the Dwarven ruins that was RIDICULOUSLY hard. AND you couldn't change your characters out.
5. Companions were hardly customizable. They all had preset armors (was BW skimping on textures for them or something??).
6. Nearly EVERY companion was bisexual. I mean, I'm totally in support of same sex romance options, but having EVERY companion be bisexual? That's just not realistic.
7. Limited scope. You pretty much stayed in the city the whole game. This could have been good, but the environments just got old and boring. If BW would have made the city a lot bigger with more varied areas it would have been nice. Compare this with PlaneScape Torment. In that game you were in one city (Sigil) for a large amount of the game, but it was made to be very interesting. The city felt like it had a personality of its own. Kirkwall never felt like this to me.
8. No interesting way to get your "prestige" classes or whatever they called them. In DA1 you had to do some kind of story quest to unlock each prestige class. In DA2...you can just become them automatically when you reach the appropriate level. Also NO ONE CARES THAT YOU ARE A BLOOD MAGE. WTF? This was a problem in DA1 as well. Blood mages are basically the scum of the earth and supposed to be very evil, but no one even blinks an eye if you are a blood mage. In fact, you can even be AGAINST blood mages AS a blood mage. Talk about hypocrisy !
Shows how little people know about game making company's.
While lead programmers and writers work on multiple tittles at a time the grunds do most of the actual work ,the nameless faces that code and design day in and out like a random canning food production company does.
EA is a big big company and there is no lack of funding toward SW:ToR and other "Ionic" bioware games. there are mutiple tittles in the works.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that the resources devoted to SWTOR wouldn't be making something else if SWTOR was never made ?
Sure, BW made other games, they made ME2, they made a horribly rushed DA2. But if they didn't make SWTOR the resources doing it would have very likely made KOTOR3. Heck, it would probably even have an expansion or two as this point. DA2 also probably wouldn't have been terrible.
Yes, companies have lots of resources, but those resources are FINITE. Talented resources are also pretty rare. BW is not just some infinite pool of resources that you put money in and churns out games. There are only so many talented people to go around.
Asfar EA,Bioware adn lucas Farts is concearned , SW:TOR = KOTOR 3 4 5 6 7
the Current IP's for Bioware are DA adn ME , both are getting (in progress) 3th sequel, EA would NOT have given more money for yet a otehr Single player game of bioware making since its already making two, thats self destructive. all the money and tallet comes from EA and not from Bioware, bioware is jsut a name under the EA brand , they got limeted freedom aslong it works out but the money,the orders and who makes what game comes from EA and EA has about a dozen more tittles comming out.
Would the money put into SW:TOR bin put into a other game..maybe yea, would it bin put into a other bioware game, not a chance.
Perhaps after DA3 and ME3 we will see a new Bioware IP /tittle RPG comming out but defintly not before it.
For some reason, businesses just have a hard time of holding on to what made them successful after they merge or are acquired. I hope this doesn't happen to BW, but it's a real possibility. BW has already got a lot of flack for dumbing their games down to try to make them appeal to a larger audience. I definitely saw this with DA2. I can't say that it was EA's influence that caused the issues with DA2, but they were definitely there.
I'd love to have someone finally explain to me how ME2 is a "dumbed down shooter" when compared to ME1?
I mean... I've played both, a hell of a lot, and the game mechanics are pretty much exactly the same...
Inventory, upgrades/crafting, and level up mechanics are different, and I did like the ME1 level up mechanics a lot more, but besides that....
Seriously?
Explain to me please k thx
You've given some of the reasons by yourself already
inventory = RPG feature removing it is more fpslike dumbed down RPG
don't tell me you didn't like upgrading your weapons? It was somewhat cool and brought some depth into your armory
what about persuade points instead of using your light/dark or grey side
how about the level design Bioware just can't get away from their "level on rails philosophy" but ME 2 topped that.
compare ME 2 with KOTOR in terms of customization and freedom its another level even ME 1 had at least some RPG features you'd expect from a game labeled as one.
So yes in my mind ME 2 is not a RPG its a dumbe down RPG shooter made for a wider audience (pissing off the fans) cause of EA pressure.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Okay, so I really do not mean to rile up anyone with this thread, I just want to see how people feel about this.
I love Bioware and I love many of their games. I spent I don't know how long on BG2, NWN, and KOTOR; I really regard these games as some of the greatest RPGs ever.
I'm looking forward to SWTOR as well, but I can't help but wish that BW would have made more single player games instead of devoting so much time and resources to an MMORPG. The thing I'm looking forward to the most in SWTOR is the single player aspect of the game, the story. The MMORPG aspect of the game doesn't really excite me that much.
I worry a bit that the story for SWTOR may not be as "epic" and fleshed out as the story of a single player game simply because you can't really be the center of the universe in an MMORPG. Instead of playing as "Commander Shepard" or the son of Bhaal, you're going to be playing as "Smuggler" or "Jedi."
So in conclusion, I'm probably going to enjoy SWTOR, but I think I would have enjoyed the "I don't know how many" SPRPGs that BW would have made if they didn't do SWTOR much more.
Thoughts? Opinions?
I right there with you man. When Bioware first announced that they were working on an Old Republic MMORPG, which would be story-based, with full voice-over, and 3 KOTOR games worth of content, I was hyped. But then I started seeing gameplay videos and it's the same old MMORPG combat, with a watered down story. I'd of rather had KOTOR quality story telling in a spRPG, than a MMORPG with watered down content, and the same old same old formula we've been playing for almost a decade.
The problem is, judging by Biowares trend of dumbing down their games and snipping away at exploration, I doubt their single player RPG's would be that good. I think Mass Effect was their last great game. Dragon Age's story and etc. wasn't bad, but exploration wasn't great either. The story and exploration sucked in Dragon Age 2. There was less exploration in DA2 than in 1 if that was even possible.
I think you need to go back and play games like KOTOR and Jade Empire again if you think Bioware ever offered huge exploration and anything but the style of combat you see in TOR.
I don't think they had exploration on the scale of an ES game, but there was always plenty in a BW game to explore. Lots of optional quests and such. I don't know that SWTOR won't have this as well though.
In case the OP hasn't heard, Bioware IS making more single player games. Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 3 are two titles that everyone is aware of.
Bioware isn't Blizzard, they can make more than one good game at a time and see a timely release date for their games (seriously, Starcraft 2 and Diablo III have been in the works for how long now?)
Can't speak for Diablo 3, but wasn't Starcraft 2 announced in 2007 and released in 2010? And SWTOR was announced in 2008 and and will see a release date around late 2011 or 2012. Considering there is likely a huge budget difference between the two I would figure those are about on par for the number of people working on either game.
I don't think the OP's point is that they can't make more single player RPG's but in their opinion (and one I share) the money would have been better spent making single player games than the kind of MMO SWTOR appears to be.
All of Starcraft 2 isn't even out yet. They split it into three different games, remember?
Yes, but let's say they kept the same budget they have had and same number of people working on it and realeased it all at once and it launched in let's say 2016... that would still probably be about the same pace as SWTOR launching in 2011 or 2012 with its budget and staff. But again you miss the point of this discussion because for some reason you want to argue about Blizzard vs. BW when that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP's point or mine for that matter.
My point is that Bioware, WHILE working on a massive MMORPG, is STILL making single player games FAR faster than Blizzard is. So the OP's point is moot when Bioware is compared to the next leading competitor.
You point that Starcraft 2 taking AS LONG AS Bioware is with their massive MMORPG PROVES my point.
You've given some of the reasons by yourself already
inventory = RPG feature removing it is more fpslike dumbed down RPG
don't tell me you didn't like upgrading your weapons? It was somewhat cool and brought some depth into your armory
what about persuade points instead of using your light/dark or grey side
how about the level design Bioware just can't get away from their "level on rails philosophy" but ME 2 topped that.
compare ME 2 with KOTOR in terms of customization and freedom its another level even ME 1 had at least some RPG features you'd expect from a game labeled as one.
So yes in my mind ME 2 is not a RPG its a dumbe down RPG shooter made for a wider audience (pissing off the fans) cause of EA pressure.
The inventory in ME1 was annoying! Too much crap to sort through and no good way to do it, but yes they shouldn't have just completely gutted it.
ME3 looks to have much better weapon/armor customization then both ME1 and ME2 combined!
I think Bioware is a company that is not afraid to try new things and learn from them.
I don't think they intentionally "dumb down" anything, they however try to eliminate the unneccessary bits that are really just annoyances.
Problem is, sometimes they axe something that maybe they felt was annoying but the fans loved, so then the NEXT time they learn from that and make it better.
I did like all the exploration and side-quests in ME 1 though, hopefully they bring more of that back for ME3 because yeah, two was a bit lacking for side content - but I feel there was a lot more there for the "main" story in ME1.
Comments
Yes, but let's say they kept the same budget they have had and same number of people working on it and realeased it all at once and it launched in let's say 2016... that would still probably be about the same pace as SWTOR launching in 2011 or 2012 with its budget and staff. But again you miss the point of this discussion because for some reason you want to argue about Blizzard vs. BW when that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP's point or mine for that matter.
Nah, I'm good with them making an MMO of KotOR. As someone before said, KotOR 3 would have ended. TOR doesn't have to.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Flashpoints are throughout SWTOR and are not endgame, but appear to not be solo-friendly. Which would mean if you played SWTOR as a singleplayer game you'd be missing a huge chunk of the gameplay. It is not a singleplayer game with mutlplayer options. It is an MMO with singleplayer story in it.
It is invalid also from the standpoint that the same people doing the MMO are not particularly those doing their single players games. BW is currently working on at least two other new titles now besides SWTOR and has release WHILE working SWTOR serveral titles. This whole debate is somewhat out of touch with what is actually happening.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Heheh so you're saying that if BW didn't start making SWTOR, they never would have had to sell the company to EA? Yeah I would have taken that in a hot second
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It doesn't always happen, but oftentimes when business merge together, something just goes wrong and they fail. In fact, the failure rate of business mergers/acquisitions has been estimated somewhere between 50% - 80%(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=532857 ).
For some reason, businesses just have a hard time of holding on to what made them successful after they merge or are acquired. I hope this doesn't happen to BW, but it's a real possibility. BW has already got a lot of flack for dumbing their games down to try to make them appeal to a larger audience. I definitely saw this with DA2. I can't say that it was EA's influence that caused the issues with DA2, but they were definitely there.
Also, expansion is another thing that some business don't survive well. Some business are able to expand their operations brilliantly and keep up their standard of quality, whereas the products of other businesses start to lack in quality after the business expands.
Remember that all "Bioware" is, is a brand name. There is no magic power in that name other than consumer perception. If Bioware decides to expand into another location and call it "Bioware Austin" then it is up to the management of Bioware to actually instill the corporate culture and values that make Bioware successful into its new location. This site has some good info on the problems typically encountered in business expansion: http://www.enotes.com/small-business-encyclopedia/business-expansion.
Basically what I'm saying is...a game developer is not an infinite font of games. If they make a decision to start a big project it will have an impact. Either they can do their big project and not do other projects they were planning or they can expand.
Expanding has risks associated with it, and requires a lot of capital. Capital that must often be obtained through selling equity, incurring debt, or being acquired. All of these have risks associated with them as well.
Nothing is free.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Think of it like this...
Once you finish the single player game, you can then bring your character online and play with your friends or against other players in multiplayer...
Or like in any single player RPG, play through again as another class or race make different story choices etc.
I didn't particularly like DA2 but I did play through it (didn't like one either). But rushed ? I didn't get that feeling from the game, overuse of backgrounds? Sure, a more Mass Effect approach over a BG or NWN one? Again sure. Though they did say before release they went that route due to feedback so I expected that anyway. And of course last we have the age old fantasy tale we've all read over and over again.
I think where a majority of the bad press (both professional and from fandom) has arisen. Is the fact it's not as traditional as DA1 and went a more actiony route like ME2. Because of that, people want to chalk DA2 up to be far worse than it was. Most I see doing this seem to want to push an idea that Bioware has changed due to EA's evil hand, for starters Bioware's RPGs have always been on the restrictive side as far as world layout goes (exploration). They've also always used cut and paste work for dungeons and other interiors.
DA2 DA1 ME1 ME2 all had focus where Bioware has always shined, likeable and/or interesting characters and a heavy emphasis on story. Bioware Game-play has always been on the generic side (by that I mean use what works, focus more on presentation).
As for your question in the OP, No, as others have said the creation of this studio and project, really hasn't slowed them down on the single player front.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd love to have someone finally explain to me how ME2 is a "dumbed down shooter" when compared to ME1?
I mean... I've played both, a hell of a lot, and the game mechanics are pretty much exactly the same...
Inventory, upgrades/crafting, and level up mechanics are different, and I did like the ME1 level up mechanics a lot more, but besides that....
Seriously?
Explain to me please k thx
But like I said, it doesn't appear that this is a single player game - Flashpoints require more than one player and appear to be a pretty big part of the content. Again, this is not a single player game with mutliplayer options, it is an MMO with single player story added. Now you can disagree with me if that sounds like fun or not, but I don't think we can change what the game is that BW is putting out there.
And don't forget you get to pay $15 to play your single player game as well
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yes that's what I said, it's a mmorpg with fully featured singleplayer game(s) in it. Flashpoints and battlegrounds etc are not required to play through the story, and many people "miss" content on purpose if they dont like group content or pvp or whatever. If you play only singleplayer content yes ofcourse you are going to "skip" something non-mandatory but my point is you can play 8 fully voiced singleplayer stories if you so wish, no it does not make the multiplayer side to go away but it is possible to ignore it.
Flashpoints are stories!
The green is all I wanted to say.
If you decide to play more than a month yes, personally I cant remember when I played a singleplayer game longer than that but if someone does, then yes it's downside, but consider the game having 8 full length and voiced singleplayer stories instead of the usual 1 in normal SP games
As with all things in a MMO, no one forces you to do anything. That's the great part.
I am very sure you could do nothing but your solo class story line and still get to max level and end up with some nice gear and all the rest of the RPG staples.
If you want the "best" gear and such and you want to see 100% of the content, then yes you will have to play with others.
When has this been any different?
The upgrade mechanics of weapons and armor was dumbed down a bit, they integrated the ammo rounds with specific skills in ME2 like the cryo ammo rounds dont exist and u can't upgrade companions armor. And essentially that makes upgrading a weapon really simple, more dmg then swap it out. I'm not sure if picking up ammo rounds falls under the "dumbed down" description but I did like the overheating mechanic of ME1. Also, the graphics of ME1 seemed better. On my system ME1 looked like a 1080p movie
"LOL"
I think you need to go back and play games like KOTOR and Jade Empire again if you think Bioware ever offered huge exploration and anything but the style of combat you see in TOR.
I was talking about DA2, not ME2
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I never had a big problem with ME2, but I think some people complained abou the lack of equipment options.
If you're interested in the problems I had with DA2...
1. Less abilities/spells than DA1, and FAR less abilities/spells than NWN.
2. FREQUENT recycling of map textures. I mean, almost every house or dungeon used one of the same 4 or 5 maps.
3. Combat looked good, but was fast to the point of insanity if unpaused. You had to pause almost every millisecond to plan your actions on the harder difficulties.
4. Difficulty scaling was way off in places. I remember I was breezing through fights on hard mode, then I got to this one fight in the Dwarven ruins that was RIDICULOUSLY hard. AND you couldn't change your characters out.
5. Companions were hardly customizable. They all had preset armors (was BW skimping on textures for them or something??).
6. Nearly EVERY companion was bisexual. I mean, I'm totally in support of same sex romance options, but having EVERY companion be bisexual? That's just not realistic.
7. Limited scope. You pretty much stayed in the city the whole game. This could have been good, but the environments just got old and boring. If BW would have made the city a lot bigger with more varied areas it would have been nice. Compare this with PlaneScape Torment. In that game you were in one city (Sigil) for a large amount of the game, but it was made to be very interesting. The city felt like it had a personality of its own. Kirkwall never felt like this to me.
8. No interesting way to get your "prestige" classes or whatever they called them. In DA1 you had to do some kind of story quest to unlock each prestige class. In DA2...you can just become them automatically when you reach the appropriate level. Also NO ONE CARES THAT YOU ARE A BLOOD MAGE. WTF? This was a problem in DA1 as well. Blood mages are basically the scum of the earth and supposed to be very evil, but no one even blinks an eye if you are a blood mage. In fact, you can even be AGAINST blood mages AS a blood mage. Talk about hypocrisy
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It's like saying Blizzard makes good RTS's and should stick to that and not have made WOW.
I know many here would agree with that statement
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Asfar EA,Bioware adn lucas Farts is concearned , SW:TOR = KOTOR 3 4 5 6 7
the Current IP's for Bioware are DA adn ME , both are getting (in progress) 3th sequel, EA would NOT have given more money for yet a otehr Single player game of bioware making since its already making two, thats self destructive. all the money and tallet comes from EA and not from Bioware, bioware is jsut a name under the EA brand , they got limeted freedom aslong it works out but the money,the orders and who makes what game comes from EA and EA has about a dozen more tittles comming out.
Would the money put into SW:TOR bin put into a other game..maybe yea, would it bin put into a other bioware game, not a chance.
Perhaps after DA3 and ME3 we will see a new Bioware IP /tittle RPG comming out but defintly not before it.
You've given some of the reasons by yourself already
inventory = RPG feature removing it is more fpslike dumbed down RPG
don't tell me you didn't like upgrading your weapons? It was somewhat cool and brought some depth into your armory
what about persuade points instead of using your light/dark or grey side
how about the level design Bioware just can't get away from their "level on rails philosophy" but ME 2 topped that.
compare ME 2 with KOTOR in terms of customization and freedom its another level even ME 1 had at least some RPG features you'd expect from a game labeled as one.
So yes in my mind ME 2 is not a RPG its a dumbe down RPG shooter made for a wider audience (pissing off the fans) cause of EA pressure.
Its confirmed that DA 2 has been rushed cause EA said so:http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/988966-/58405733
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I don't think they had exploration on the scale of an ES game, but there was always plenty in a BW game to explore. Lots of optional quests and such. I don't know that SWTOR won't have this as well though.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
My point is that Bioware, WHILE working on a massive MMORPG, is STILL making single player games FAR faster than Blizzard is. So the OP's point is moot when Bioware is compared to the next leading competitor.
You point that Starcraft 2 taking AS LONG AS Bioware is with their massive MMORPG PROVES my point.
The inventory in ME1 was annoying! Too much crap to sort through and no good way to do it, but yes they shouldn't have just completely gutted it.
ME3 looks to have much better weapon/armor customization then both ME1 and ME2 combined!
I think Bioware is a company that is not afraid to try new things and learn from them.
I don't think they intentionally "dumb down" anything, they however try to eliminate the unneccessary bits that are really just annoyances.
Problem is, sometimes they axe something that maybe they felt was annoying but the fans loved, so then the NEXT time they learn from that and make it better.
I did like all the exploration and side-quests in ME 1 though, hopefully they bring more of that back for ME3 because yeah, two was a bit lacking for side content - but I feel there was a lot more there for the "main" story in ME1.