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(The Everquest Model vs Queue'd Instances) Are time sinks a part of Adventure?
AccountDeleted12341
Member Posts: 351
I have noticed that if the MMORPG has queue'd instances, such as WARHAMMER's PvP, WoW's and its Dungeon Finder, that I get frustrated easily with longer queue times (I mean longer than instant, with <5 minutes being annoying.) Yet when I play games such as Everquest 1, Darkfall, or other games with larger open worlds (and time sinks of having to spend 20+ minutes just to get something started), although I absolutely hate the longest waits, I seem to enjoy myself more when actually playing.
There have been many improvements with MMORPG's due to the attempts to lessen time sinks required to get "into the action". However, this seems to have destroyed all meaning. Why?
I have always been an enemy against time sinks of any kind, and believe the ideal is finding a way to keep all meaning and adventure, without wasting a player's time with boring travel, inaccessible PvP, or waiting for groups for a dungeon. I have closed my mind off for many a year to think that time sinks were ever a good thing, in any way.
Few games can leave the impression of adventure Everquest 1 or Ultima Online have given me. Not even DAoC in its prime did this. Yet now I wonder..."Are time sinks a part of the fun?" Not just a requirement for meaningful adventure, but something which encourages, boosts, and is the creative ROOT of the fun. If no, then what is the true difference between Everquest and WoW? Between an open world and instant action instances? Between DAoC's "Wait 15 minutes" battlegrounds and instant joining?
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It wasn't part of the fun, it was part of what killed those games and why the majority of players moved on to games where there were no ridiculous time sinks. Nobody except the geek living in his mother's basement has time to sit around for 20 minutes waiting for something to happen. Most people have very little time to sit around and play a game. Wasting time standing around is time you can't actually play.
Good riddance to time sinks. May we never see them again.
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Um, Everquest is still going today...I wouldn't say it killed it. And even today's MMO's are timesinks, just in different ways to fool people like you into believing otherwise. What do you think 8,000 "Kill/Collect 1 billion of this or that" type of quests are, or raiding?....timesinks to keep you playing.
And I don't know how many times I have to say it to get this to sink in, but MMORPG's are suppose to be time consuming, longer lasting adventures....hence, why they are a different genre from console games where instant gratification and fun are designed for. It's why MMO's had monthly subscriptions. But now, they are all getting turned into single player RPG's with cash shops and microtransactions because of the new ADD playerbase involved in them.
EQ is a ghost of it's former self, the game is still running with a low population, clinging to life by the skin of it's teeth. That's not success, especially compared to what came afterwards.
Secondly, the OP specifically referred to time sinks as time spent standing around doing nothing waiting for something to happen. Modern games do not have these. Grinding is still playing the game, even if it fulfills the same general function, you're not standing around bored.
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The point is, EQ is still running after 13 years...I'd say that is success considering most new MMO's don't make it to the point EQ is after a couple of years.
Secondly...you don't consider standing around in major cities of nearly any MMO you can play spamming for raid groups isn't standing around doing nothing? Once you reach level cap (Usually in less than a month in today's crap MMO's) that is what most of these MMO's consist of if you don't join a huge elitist Guild.
I think time sinks are a part of the adventure, if you dont want to waste hours of playing time lfg or exploring and finding new/old dungeons and tackling the enemys inside them, mmorpgs arent for you.. go find a FPS where you can jump in and out for whatever time period you like and get your pew pews out of your system for the day.
Some of my best memories come from just hanging outside of dungeons in everquest meeting new people, trading and going off on an adventure with them, you dont really get that now days, everything just feels like its thrown in your face and given to you.
I think the whole sitting around forming a PUG group thing is the flawed notion. Those kinds of dungeons should be for guilds and such, people who are already playing together and work well. Therefore if you are too anti-social for a guild, then you shouldn't be trying to do a guild based activity. Failing that, you bite the bullet and wait for a PUG.
It's why item shops are going to win out in the end. People want it now and are willing to pay for it.
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Agreed. If your players are perceiving the content as a time sink then it isn't fun or engaging.
What constitutes a time sink or grind is entirey subjective, though. For example, those who want to kill mobs to progress may find a passive advancement system like EVE Online's to be a time sink because their ability to grind up to their preferred level is limited by timers. Likewise, there are those that find grinding mobs to be a time sink because they have to stop doing the activities they are enjoying in order to grind up to the next tier of content or maintain level with their friends/team/clan.
Time sinks between battles, spawns or episodes of content is, from a paying player perspective, horrible design. While some here love to attribute that to 'the instant gratificaiton crowd' or players being 'lazy', the reality is that most people don't want to stand around doing nothing during the time that they have set aside for their paid entertainment.
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I am of 2 minds regarding this. Take WoW for instance. Back when there wasn't an LFD feature, life was a bloody pain. Very few people used the LFG channels. I remember all the spam in trade and "LFD Daily heroic PST". Woe betide you if you were a DPS class - I had the luxury of being a tank. If you played at odd hours, your chances of running a dungeon were nil.
And when you finally found a group... even then the problem existed. I hated having to fly out to the instance - and I was the guy that always did it when the other lazy bums were chilling in Shattrath or wherever. Once I'd get there (or on my way there), I'd plead, "Need someone else here, please".
So yes, it was annoying.
When the LFD feature debuted, I was its biggest support. I felt it breathed life into the game and was a great feature. When I wanted to grind dailies or work on reps, I'd queue as DPS. If I were in a hurry, I'd hop on as tank.
Fast forward to now - I hate LFD. I firmly believe it is what nail shut the coffin of WoW's declining community. I also feel it really cheapens content and ultimately harms the game's content and leads to burn out.
HOWEVER, I am not sure if the former method is the best, either. I hated in RIFT that I'd spend 5 minutes running around trying to figure out where the heck an event was taking place... and by the time I'd get there, the event would have been over. (Event - instanced dungeons, two different things but the concept is still the same)
Having your character on autorun isn't engaging, or awesome in any shape or form. But neither is having everyone chill in capitals and the world lies empty, dull and dead.
I have often wondered... is this why everyone has such fond memories of EQ? They never got tired of it because they never really got to the end of "it" -- the game wasn't conventionally "grindy" (having to watch numbers or a counter) because the grind was disguised in things like slow levelling speed, death penalty and general game design?
The players spent most of their time with the content "unfinished" -- so they really didn't have the time to sit around and complain about stuff.
Personally, I hate time sinks (like in the older MMOs). As I said, autorun is NOT fun in the least. Am I an instant gratification guy? I don't think so -- I love to explore, love to take screenshots, love to wander around.
I'm sure there is a happy medium out there -- I don't happen to know what that is though.
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I need to take this advice more.
MMORPGS are about adventure, exploration and working together FPS like features such as queque instances, teleports killing immersion so I really prefer Everquests model.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
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I kinda agree with both sides in this, since all a game is really is a selection of time sinks linked together with text/story placed together with them. In alot of ways the que up system you devide the players into singular entities that do not need to talk or even work wiht their community of their servers, mostly becuase why deal with other people when you can que up and then finsih your dailies in peace This makes players enjoy their time kinda more since most of the player base is of the loner type crowd, but also leads to a less need to work well with the group, since you can drop group wait for a short time before requing again, while not gaining a bad rep or any true problems from your actions in that group. the other side is that as you doo and complete content thru the earlier non-que system you woujld gain a rep on your server, which would lead to alot of ego/elitism from not wanting to deal wwith people of lesser skill at points (although these times you would see alot of helping in the community though overall.). As you lose many time sinks like lfg'ing for instances in chats you need alot more activities to keep your playerbase active, which in turn creates more time sinks for the added need to keep people playing while they are qued. I really do not have an issue with the que or non que systems, but with the fact that when you que you're given a reward of both items and exp; This makes it alot easier (not completely faster) to que and level via instances while in capital cities, over questing while you search in chats, though alot do quests while qued i have seen many sit in capitals instead. I do have to say i hate the i have this much time to play arguement, since that creates alot of easy quick options, yet nothing time consuming that is interestinng and fun. Honestly in mmos there is alot of thigns to do even with limited time play, both before que systems were brought into the picture, with alot of people being annoyed that if they came on with 2 hours to play that an instance would take alot of time to get into and then complete even more time.
I played D&D for years even still do over the weekends as well as some of the weekdays, while i do play most of the quests and adventures that take place in D&D are largely masked time sinks used to further the storyline. Though i loved hwo when i would go to create magicc items, relics, and such it would actually fit into the story while i did so.
So adding trash mobs is different than a long walk or a little wait how? Why not have 3 bosses right after another and forgo that part of the game.
To me trash mobs are absolutely the worse part of any play time. They take dreadfully long and you can't skip them no matter what you do. That is a big time sink. Everyone will view something as a time sink. I enjoy open world games where there is just stuff to do. Unfortunately games are catering to the I want my action and I want it know type mentality regardless of whether its a carrot on a stick method and thats all there is.
Give me some old style games back. Kind of reminds me of how football is turning into a passing game, give me a bruising back and grind out the yards and beat the other guys down all day long, not toss it up and air it out. Guess I'm in the minority.
If you were less defensive and more realistic, you'd concede that WOW's success totally dwarfed EQ1's.
The success was earned by maximizing the time the player spent in stronger core game systems, and minimizing the time wasted with weaker systems (travel, death, forming a party, that kind of thing.) Basically they min/maxed the player having a good time.
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A time sink where you're engaging in a moderately deep game feature (combat) is vastly preferable to one where you aren't playing the game (travel).
Travel as a timesink is more like the game playing you.
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I don't know why so many people only find value in combat and progression in this genre. The "time sinks" and "boring" parts of the older games were part of what made them special. Just because you didn't enjoy it or found it a waste of time doesn't mean that those aspects of gameplay didn't have some merit or reason for existing beyond making the player play longer. People complain all the time about lack of community and consequence, how games are much more shallow than they used to be. In my opinion, this is the biggest reason for such things. Sure, waiting on the dock for a boat does not progress your character, and is not engaging in the least, but it gave the games definition.
What you do with that downtime is just as important as combat or progression, from my perspective. I can chat with friends, do tradeskills, or meet someone new who also happens to be waiting for the boat. Traveling from one point to another may be boring and inconclusive as far as combat and progression are concerned, but interesting things can happen. That is part of the intrigue that has been lost in these modern MMOs. They have become just another video game, instead of a populated world full of potential.
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What killed EQ (IMO) wasn't the time sinks or waiting around for groups. It was the general direction the game headed after SoV. They killed a social game with bad design decisions, over blown aa's and reduced the overall skill level of specific classes. That's what I loved about the game anyway.
Time sinks? They still have them in abundance. You have to jump through 50 hoops just to "progress" to newer dungeons/content. I can't say I'm a fan of that. Spawn camping for your epic for 20,30 or 40 hours? I can't say I had to do it as I got lucky on my monk but I loved and hated the thought of it.
Of course, if I got the 40 or 50 hour one I probably would have hated it but when I DID get it I would have loved the epic that much more. Funny how that works isn't it?
But while traveling you can do social things. Kind of hard to chat unless on VIOP while engaged in combat. So games have turned more anti-social than ever before, I think is another reason why I do not enjoy the genre as much. I want social features not combat features.
Just difference in enjoyment factors, I rather enjoyed 5-10 minute shuttle/spaceport waits in galaxies, and never minded boats coming every few minutes in EQ2 when I played, made many of friends in game because of that as well as increased my ignore count sometimes too.
I used to hate time sinks. I thought endless hours of mindless grinding was pointless.... however, I'd say that they do serve a function and that function is getting people together and forcing them to interact. I've meet some of the most skilled players in MMO through these mindless grind sessions. I would have never meet those people if it wasnt for the mindless grinding. you can tell ALOT about a person by seeing their attitude when they are grinding and THAT was one of the benefits of actually having to grind.
I now see a function and purpose for mindless grinding, so i dont mind them as much anymore.
Um. The game is 13 years old? I think that's the reason people moved on, the game just got old and dated. People didn't move on from Asteroids and Pacman because the gameplay sucked, they moved on because they got old and new games had new things to offer - better graphics, different gameplay.
Stop trying to blame EQ's decline on it's design decisions, it's been going strong for 13 years. How many other games can you say still have a strong playerbase after that long?
I totally HATE instance finder queue tools. I mean it , it is such big disadvantage for a mmorpg for me ,one of biggest.
Why? Well because it is not only a thing that "save" time. First of all , it does NOT really save time, since you still have to wait in queue for 5-40 minutes depending on your class , level , dungeon you looking group for , time of the day ,etc. Hardly a time saver compared to just finding group 'normal' way.
Second and for me far MORE important. What those instance finder tools do , they transform game into graphical chat , where players sit in cities , staying in /afk mode , looking through AH , or /emote in most crowded areas, waiting for instances.
It increases anonymity , without this tools people socialize more , they do run instances with known people more , with "looking for group instance teleport tools" , people just push the button and meaninglessly wait , and after they go into instance they don't care how they act since they don't know people they run instance with and just shout at other players how wrong they are playing , how slow group is progressing through instance , abuse tank & healer ,etc .
Sure it happens in games without queue-teleport LFG tools , but from my experience this happens rarer.
Cross-server LFG made it even worse , because of bigger anonymity.
So this is hardly a time saver , and it transform game into more solo experience with people acting really bad when they auto-group , cause they don't care about rest of group just want their daily medallions from instance 5 minutes earlier.
Actually LFG-teleport to instance tools , transform game and community so much , that it feel less and less like mmorpg, with open world beign neglected even more.
I sometimes wonder why in this kind of games , game developers and players do even care with open world?
Just make city as a big instance where players can wait , and make character progress entirelly through instances on which you wait in queue.
So imho for me when I see LFG queue-teleport to instance tool implemented into a game it means I have to look for anoher game.
I think game developers should stop with illusion of a game for 'everyone' and just profille mmorpg's more. Some games people who care only for running instances / BG's and diffrently made game for those who like to run instnaces but enjoy doing many other things as well ,and don't like games beign turned into graphic chats.
MMORPG market is rising all the time and with so big playerbase just making one type of game for everyone will provide worse and worse results.
Just look at strategy games market or TPP games market how diffrent those games can be from each other and not copy & pasting one idea and one kind of solutions for whole playerbase.
Sounds like you're the kind of player that enjoys the "travel" aspect of RPGs. It's a great thing. In particular when the world is filled with as many odd dangers as EQ1 was. I mean remember being a noob and running into the desert of ro to find this highway full of orcs, only to have crazy crocs kill you.. A giant kill you.. An island of specters kill you..
That was real adventure and a bit unpredictable. It felt dangerous, but fun.
Being zipped to a static map to have some idiots harp about the drop table, their dps rating, how they've studied spawn placement...
It's not the same.
It's boring.
But EQ had this in a way as well. I remember being in guilds and having to wait literally weeks to get in to raid a god or a dragon for a chance drop.
So yeah there's some improvements to the "game" but the cost was the "adventure".
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Well it is more like improvment to the "running instances" part of game , rather to the "game" itself.
That's what I am talking about. "Game" part for me is all things combined : instances, questing , crafting , adventuring , social interactions, exploring , housing , mini-games , game economy and many smaller things.
So LFG queue-teleport tool is very discussive "improvement" (I find it rarely save time tbh) for "instance" aspect at cost of most other aspects of a game.
So nope it does not really improve "game" , it just change "instances" part of game , but since many people see mmorpg=instance running...
Gear sadly is the game to most people. Gear. That's it. World creators and map designers could all die tomorrow and 90% of the MMORPG community could care less.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Sulaa.....some excellent points. I as well hate the queue systems. I agree they kill the world population, they destroy anything resembling true teamplay, and they are simply a tool put in to please the impatient. I see this term "time sink" used quite often. I disagree with it and always have. How is questing with your friends/guildmates while waiting for a few more to group up to do content a time sink? Isn't that kinda the point and fun of MMO's?
Why would I rather join a group of people that never talk to each other, could honestly care less about each other, and just want to rush through the content to get the sparkly reward at the end? And that's not even factoring in all the waiting as these groups fold, fail, wait for a new tank, healer, etc.
The problem I see honestly these days is our genre grows more each day with people that simply want to solo, and when they do have to group, they want to be done with it as quickly as possible. I never understood the "Can I solo this game?" mentality in a genre built for group play. It reminds me of the lone wolf mentality that ruins so many great shooters. Unfortunatly, I am in the minority now, as most players are impatient, most could care less about challenge, inovation, etc. They just want level 85, and shiny gear, and they want it yesterday.
I have heard it said countless times, and it truly reflects what I love about this genre....." It's all about the journey, not the destination." Sadly, the great majority generally only care about themselves, and endgame.