I agree with both of you. Adding time-wasting game mechanics isn't going to magically create a better community. If anything, nowadays, it's going to create a smaller community which is exactly the opposite of what publishers want. On the other hand, the speedy gameplay that is so popular right now, does affect how players act towards one another, in my opinion. Players no longer expect downtime, so they see it as a waste and believe that nothing fun or interesting can ever come from it. I believe it can.
Taking time to help or get to know a player can be very rewarding and makes the downtime more bearable. By contrast, it doesn't matter to me how fast my character is progressing if the only reason I'm doing it is to get more powerful. Maybe if there was more down-time and interdependence I would get to meet and actually interact with some of those players from the older games that seem to have disappeared from the modern games. Maybe I could actually tell if they were people that I'd like to hang out with more instead of being just another part of a huge blur created by the warp speed these new games play at.
But people can learn that on their own and impose their own down time if they wish to do so. Having it imposed on them by the developers is never a good thing. People need to be able to make choices. If they want to rush by and level as fast as they can, that's up to them. If they want to slow down and smell the roses, that's fine too. I don't think it's going to create a better community because most of the people playing these games aren't going to be part of a good community regardless.
If 99 out of 100 players are rushing around, it doesn't sound like that 1 player has much of a choice in that regard if they want to play with other players. They are getting gameplay imposed on them as well. I don't think slower games create better communities, but I definitely think "faster" ones create poor communities.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That was pretty well said there Palebane and in far less sentences than usually takes me ..lol.
I however do feel that obviously the game has to be good,but the slower pace ,does create a better community.FFXI was perhaps the slowest paced game at one time,and it had imo easiest the best community.It is not the term "slow" that really is the answer it is the fact that you had to work with others to play the game [doh MMO,whoda figure].That forced team work is what slows you down,many have complained,i never did,however i do agree forced grouping needs work/tweaking whatever to make it MORE viable.
Once you remove any kind of grind or time sink,you have players soloing 24/7,this means they are vaulting far ahead of many averagre players.There is many reasons why that is bad thing,those that are experienced MMO players will know the reasons,it would take me far too long to go into detail posting them all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If 99 out of 100 players are rushing around, it doesn't sound like that 1 player has much of a choice in that regard if they want to play with other players. They are getting gameplay imposed on them as well. I don't think slower games create better communities, but I definitely think "faster" ones create poor communities.
Which is why I solo 99.9% of the time, because there's nobody out there worth playing with. I don't care if everyone else wants to rush to level cap, I don't, I won't, I just want to be left alone to play the game the way I want to play the game and not have anyone else's playstyle forced on me. I don't think slow games create good communities, I don't think fast games create poor communities, I think that it's the quality of the players who make the difference and I have yet to find a single game in the past decade or so that wasn't stuffed to the gills with selfish, entitlement-happy, obnoxious asshats who would just as soon throw you under a bus if it gets them a rare drop as look at you.
Is it any wonder I don't want to play with any of them?
Is there a debate on what constitutes a time sink in a MMORPG?
I mean in a way playing a video game instead of doing something constructive for yourself or society is a sinking of time.
Maybe there's a debate about what's acceptable use of time while gaming?
Waiting for instances can suck. Travelling too long of a distance can be exciting, but it can also suck. Waiting for a spawn to pop is on par to taking toe nail clippers to my teeth in annoyance personally.
I don't think there's as big of a "GIMME NOW" group as some posters imply. Otherwise the biggest game played on the internet would be a virtual coin toss. "Heads, heads now, dammit. Heads, no tails! Ha! Tricked you." Because that's the only instantly gratifying game I've ever played.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I think there is a broader issue here. Time sinks have always existed in games, there are just developers who are better at hiding them behind unique inventive events, deep and rich tasks and dialogues for your character/avatar to go through.
Over the past 5-8 years, things have become less about the journey (yes, the journey is a time sink) and more about getting to the "end game" so you could participate in the content the game was designed for.
Hence why people see all the waiting around - because you aren't busy with the journey.
EQ was great but hardly sustainable in its early form. If EQ had never changed its philosophies on travel, dungeons and downtime then a current player will have spent real-time months aboard a virtual boat that follows the exact same path. How long did it take to get from Freeport to Faydwer, about 20 minutes right?
You know what people did in those 20 minutes? They almost never talked or role-played with the other boat riders, if there were any. They were AFK making dinner or watching TV.
Everything you people claim was great back in EQs heyday was great for a few months. It was the loyal players who got bloody sick for waiting to do things. That's why newer games didnt have all of these timesinks - they are utterly unsustainable.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
EQ was great but hardly sustainable in its early form. If EQ had never changed its philosophies on travel, dungeons and downtime then a current player will have spent real-time months aboard a virtual boat that follows the exact same path. How long did it take to get from Freeport to Faydwer, about 20 minutes right?
You know what people did in those 20 minutes? They almost never talked or role-played with the other boat riders, if there were any. They were AFK making dinner or watching TV.
Everything you people claim was great back in EQs heyday was great for a few months. It was the loyal players who got bloody sick for waiting to do things. That's why newer games didnt have all of these timesinks - they are utterly unsustainable.
LOL! Ok... this coming from someone with "For the Horde!" in their avatar.
The loyal players stayed in the game and played for years. It was the impatient ones that got sick of waiting on things. And I recall a command you could put in (Don't recall actual command, been YEARS) to pull up a game somewhat like tetris you could play while on a boat traveling. And sure, I SOMETIMES encountered quiet times on a boat ride and therefor would watch some T.V. or something, but most of the time I had friends I made (Yes! It can happen in an MMO! Sadly, just rarely in today's supposed MMO's) or Guild members I talked with the whole ride. And you know what? We enjoyed it. Or maybe even changed my mind about where I was going and found an island along the route to jump ship for and explore.
Pull the blinders from your eyes and you may realize that even in your precious WoW, there are an abundance of timesinks. They are just disguised better in today's MMO's because they have been refined. UO and EQ were the first...so of course they were crude (Well, EQ for 3D anyways)...but as far as I am concerned (And this isn't speaking from EQ being my first as the sole reasoning), UO and EQ had WAY more appealing and enduring features than today's MMO's (Onyl know UO through what my friend who played for years told me of it). They actually took time, had lots of content, and allowed you to get immersed because the communities weren't full of ADD afflicted dilholes racing to cap to get shinies nad ignore everyone else in doing so...and helped and interacted with one another. No really! It happened!
Why pay $50-60 and a monthly fee for this garbage now that you can get to cap with in a month or less without trying. Oh wait...make that microtransaction and /or cash shop garbage. You can get a console game for the same price...and ironically, with almost the same gameplay features as today's crappy MMO selection.
What? You think because I play WoW now that I don't know EQ? That's funny because most of the most active and capable guilds left to play WoW during Gates Of Blandest expansion ever. Hi uqua bugged and unfinished zone for months after release. Hi txevu... Most terrible raid zone ever.
WoW was directly inspired by EQ and took the best parts. Verant and SOE were never good at creating a responsive and well crafted game client. Blizzard were behemoths of the PC gaming scene long before EQ came along.
Don't get me wrong, I loved EQ. I am a veteran and still have all the early expansion zones burned into my brain. But EQ was designed to run for 1 year. It's success was a sheer accident. Blizzard took all the crap away.
What did SOE do with it's wealth from EQ1? Make EQ2. What a tragic waste.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
What? You think because I play WoW now that I don't know EQ? That's funny because most of the most active and capable guilds left to play WoW during Gates Of Blandest expansion ever. Hi uqua bugged and unfinished zone for months after release. Hi txevu... Most terrible raid zone ever.
WoW was directly inspired by EQ and took the best parts. Verant and SOE were never good at creating a responsive and well crafted game client. Blizzard were behemoths of the PC gaming scene long before EQ came along.
Don't get me wrong, I loved EQ. I am a veteran and still have all the early expansion zones burned into my brain. But EQ was designed to run for 1 year. It's success was a sheer accident. Blizzard took all the crap away.
What did SOE do with it's wealth from EQ1? Make EQ2. What a tragic waste.
It is just very difficult for me to take anyone seriously who loves WoW, although, at least you played EQ too. To me, that game is the epitomy of nearly everything wrong with an MMO. That is MY personal opinion though. Mainly because they are too clouded with purely making money, and made it less and less an MMO, and more and more a single player RPG that just "happens" to have other players running around in it that may as well be considered NPC's since few communicate with one another beyond insults and immature banter. (DID play from release to just before BC released) Don't get me wrong..there ARE many things they did right though, but for the most part, just many more things they did wrong out of sheer greed. It WAS very good at first...but quickly degenerated.
Never even heard of Blizzard prior to WoW myself...but then again, I didn't even get into computer gaming until EQ when a guy I was stationed with in Washington, D.C. introduced me to it and taught me to build my own rigs. Well...EQ and LOTS of Batlefield 1942 anyways. =P Prior to that I was heavily into Atari 2600, Nintendo, etc and LOTS of RPG's.
I can't really speak on EQ2...I did a week free trial, but never played it further than that. Just didn't "grab" me the same way EQ1 did. LOVED EQ from beginning up to Luclin expansion myself. Personally I think it really started tanking with PoP expansion. I was in the beta for Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and loved what I initially saw...but quickly got turned off when it became apparent that Verant had little real interest in what the tester's were saying (Those that truly cared to deliver a great MMO experience), and were more interested in what the masses were saying instead (Mainly the whiney masses). And damn SoE to hell.
I had heard they were working on Everquest Next (EQ3 basically), but tough to get excited about something backed by SoE. Especially when I hear rumors it is to be cash shop involved. Smedely needs to take a long walk off a short pier into shark infested waters slathered in cow blood. >:(
Comments
If 99 out of 100 players are rushing around, it doesn't sound like that 1 player has much of a choice in that regard if they want to play with other players. They are getting gameplay imposed on them as well. I don't think slower games create better communities, but I definitely think "faster" ones create poor communities.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That was pretty well said there Palebane and in far less sentences than usually takes me ..lol.
I however do feel that obviously the game has to be good,but the slower pace ,does create a better community.FFXI was perhaps the slowest paced game at one time,and it had imo easiest the best community.It is not the term "slow" that really is the answer it is the fact that you had to work with others to play the game [doh MMO,whoda figure].That forced team work is what slows you down,many have complained,i never did,however i do agree forced grouping needs work/tweaking whatever to make it MORE viable.
Once you remove any kind of grind or time sink,you have players soloing 24/7,this means they are vaulting far ahead of many averagre players.There is many reasons why that is bad thing,those that are experienced MMO players will know the reasons,it would take me far too long to go into detail posting them all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Which is why I solo 99.9% of the time, because there's nobody out there worth playing with. I don't care if everyone else wants to rush to level cap, I don't, I won't, I just want to be left alone to play the game the way I want to play the game and not have anyone else's playstyle forced on me. I don't think slow games create good communities, I don't think fast games create poor communities, I think that it's the quality of the players who make the difference and I have yet to find a single game in the past decade or so that wasn't stuffed to the gills with selfish, entitlement-happy, obnoxious asshats who would just as soon throw you under a bus if it gets them a rare drop as look at you.
Is it any wonder I don't want to play with any of them?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'm wondering where this conversation is going;
Is there a debate on what constitutes a time sink in a MMORPG?
I mean in a way playing a video game instead of doing something constructive for yourself or society is a sinking of time.
Maybe there's a debate about what's acceptable use of time while gaming?
Waiting for instances can suck. Travelling too long of a distance can be exciting, but it can also suck. Waiting for a spawn to pop is on par to taking toe nail clippers to my teeth in annoyance personally.
I don't think there's as big of a "GIMME NOW" group as some posters imply. Otherwise the biggest game played on the internet would be a virtual coin toss. "Heads, heads now, dammit. Heads, no tails! Ha! Tricked you." Because that's the only instantly gratifying game I've ever played.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I think there is a broader issue here. Time sinks have always existed in games, there are just developers who are better at hiding them behind unique inventive events, deep and rich tasks and dialogues for your character/avatar to go through.
Over the past 5-8 years, things have become less about the journey (yes, the journey is a time sink) and more about getting to the "end game" so you could participate in the content the game was designed for.
Hence why people see all the waiting around - because you aren't busy with the journey.
You know what people did in those 20 minutes? They almost never talked or role-played with the other boat riders, if there were any. They were AFK making dinner or watching TV.
Everything you people claim was great back in EQs heyday was great for a few months. It was the loyal players who got bloody sick for waiting to do things. That's why newer games didnt have all of these timesinks - they are utterly unsustainable.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
LOL! Ok... this coming from someone with "For the Horde!" in their avatar.
The loyal players stayed in the game and played for years. It was the impatient ones that got sick of waiting on things. And I recall a command you could put in (Don't recall actual command, been YEARS) to pull up a game somewhat like tetris you could play while on a boat traveling. And sure, I SOMETIMES encountered quiet times on a boat ride and therefor would watch some T.V. or something, but most of the time I had friends I made (Yes! It can happen in an MMO! Sadly, just rarely in today's supposed MMO's) or Guild members I talked with the whole ride. And you know what? We enjoyed it. Or maybe even changed my mind about where I was going and found an island along the route to jump ship for and explore.
Pull the blinders from your eyes and you may realize that even in your precious WoW, there are an abundance of timesinks. They are just disguised better in today's MMO's because they have been refined. UO and EQ were the first...so of course they were crude (Well, EQ for 3D anyways)...but as far as I am concerned (And this isn't speaking from EQ being my first as the sole reasoning), UO and EQ had WAY more appealing and enduring features than today's MMO's (Onyl know UO through what my friend who played for years told me of it). They actually took time, had lots of content, and allowed you to get immersed because the communities weren't full of ADD afflicted dilholes racing to cap to get shinies nad ignore everyone else in doing so...and helped and interacted with one another. No really! It happened!
Why pay $50-60 and a monthly fee for this garbage now that you can get to cap with in a month or less without trying. Oh wait...make that microtransaction and /or cash shop garbage. You can get a console game for the same price...and ironically, with almost the same gameplay features as today's crappy MMO selection.
WoW was directly inspired by EQ and took the best parts. Verant and SOE were never good at creating a responsive and well crafted game client. Blizzard were behemoths of the PC gaming scene long before EQ came along.
Don't get me wrong, I loved EQ. I am a veteran and still have all the early expansion zones burned into my brain. But EQ was designed to run for 1 year. It's success was a sheer accident. Blizzard took all the crap away.
What did SOE do with it's wealth from EQ1? Make EQ2. What a tragic waste.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
It is just very difficult for me to take anyone seriously who loves WoW, although, at least you played EQ too. To me, that game is the epitomy of nearly everything wrong with an MMO. That is MY personal opinion though. Mainly because they are too clouded with purely making money, and made it less and less an MMO, and more and more a single player RPG that just "happens" to have other players running around in it that may as well be considered NPC's since few communicate with one another beyond insults and immature banter. (DID play from release to just before BC released) Don't get me wrong..there ARE many things they did right though, but for the most part, just many more things they did wrong out of sheer greed. It WAS very good at first...but quickly degenerated.
Never even heard of Blizzard prior to WoW myself...but then again, I didn't even get into computer gaming until EQ when a guy I was stationed with in Washington, D.C. introduced me to it and taught me to build my own rigs. Well...EQ and LOTS of Batlefield 1942 anyways. =P Prior to that I was heavily into Atari 2600, Nintendo, etc and LOTS of RPG's.
I can't really speak on EQ2...I did a week free trial, but never played it further than that. Just didn't "grab" me the same way EQ1 did. LOVED EQ from beginning up to Luclin expansion myself. Personally I think it really started tanking with PoP expansion. I was in the beta for Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and loved what I initially saw...but quickly got turned off when it became apparent that Verant had little real interest in what the tester's were saying (Those that truly cared to deliver a great MMO experience), and were more interested in what the masses were saying instead (Mainly the whiney masses). And damn SoE to hell.
I had heard they were working on Everquest Next (EQ3 basically), but tough to get excited about something backed by SoE. Especially when I hear rumors it is to be cash shop involved. Smedely needs to take a long walk off a short pier into shark infested waters slathered in cow blood. >:(