this thread is getting long and distorted. All it comes down to is this:
MMO Game Developers have costs - and there are many costs involved. They may have similar hard costs like t he bandwith and stuff, but we lay people just don't know what other costs are involved in creating a AAA MMO.
To call these gaming companies thieves is not fair in my view. They don't invest time, manpower, advertising / marketing, hardware, software out of the goodness of their hearts. Profit is what makes the MMO genre better for everyone.
Like many have said in these threads - yes Anet uses a P2P non subscription model. Other games are free to play with no subscription model. Does that make Anet a bunch of crooks? Um no. Just like Blizzard has P2P + subscription model are not crooks either. We can whine all day long on the forums about it, but the bottom line is : we are clueless what is involved with these companies and it is frankly none of our beeswax. The only thing that matters is whether you VALUE the game for the money you pay. Whether it is Runescape/ Wizard 101, or GW2, or Wow/ SW:TOR. If it is worth playing to me I will fund the company. Because I receive a pleasurable gaming experience for my money. My money will drive the business to make more content, expansions and continue to provide the fun I want. If I don't like it, my money goes elsewhere. Maybe the game goes free to play or maybe the company goes under (or gets bought by SOE).
Capitalism
I agree with you for the most part. I know this is going to be a far fetched comparison but hear me out.
Hitler was a POS. What I highlighted in red is like a German saying if it puts food on my families plate and the recession we are in is so bad, why should I question his methods because it is none of my beeswax? So they should all just buy in and not wonder why?I am sure they Valued having a roof over there heads but at what cost? I am in no way saying games with subs are Nhazis, just pointing out that your logic is something I strongly disagree on and that was the first analogy that came to mind since I am in an econimics class and we are going over the German hyperinflation.
I want to know what my money is paying for and why all these other companies, big or small, feel the same about charging $15 a month. What sets it at the $15 mark? If a game is designed, unlike a console game, to take a huge amount of time to get to something that one can concidder an end, why charge the same box price as all other games at $50-$60 and still charge a sub fee? I am sorry but to not question and just take a company at their word that that is what it takes to keep them going and to produce more content for the consumer just isn't good enough for some. Especially when another company says the trend isn't necessary. That is also part of Capitalism. Company A says we need this money and company B says we can offer the same at a lesser cost to the consumer then the market will hopefully shift. But hey you are entitled to beleive what you want. If throwing money at a company because you feel that you are getting a good value more power to you.
The other cost-saving feature comes from economy of bandwidth. MMO players know all about long download times, when a game has an update, with patches that often exceed 100 megabytes, and thousands of players simultaneously piling on, to get it. (“It can cost us a million dollars for an update patch,” Garriott says of other NCSoft MMOs. “You peak when you release a giant download.”)
By contrast, Guild Wars streams its updates in small chunks, depending on what part of the world you’re in. “Instead of having peaks of bandwidth usage… [the update] streams it evenly over time, so the costs don’t peak.”
Numerous areas and quests in the world are “instantiated”, meaning specially created only for a small group of players, and that also minimizes bandwidth, since it means tracking less player data across the wider world.
to be clear, I'm not in favor of sub fees at all
but Garriott gives clear explanations how GW1 avoided costs by not having to pay GameMasters and tracking less player data in instancing
I cant wait for GW2 like everyone else
The only part I would question of this is the fact that GW1 has a command you can add to your shortcut to download everything so it is not in small chucks. I do not know anyone that owns GW1 that has not used this command, so how is it that ANet has turned a profit if their fans are not just allowing ever area to download when you enter into it, but instead downloading everything all at once in one huge update? Because according to Garriott’s own words that would put GW1 on the same play field as all the other NCsoft MMOs.
And for the instancing making it so you are tracking less date across the wider world is true, but it also means you are tracking dozens upon dozens of the same instance which uses guess what bandwidth. So as long as there is not too many instances open it would save on bandwidth in theory. Also that article is from 2006 server and bandwidth cost have declined since then, in fact it is declining year over year and from all the reports I have read that is going to continue for a long time since the technology is advancing and getting cheaper to make.
As for in game support I could care less that GW1 does not have them, I honestly cannot remember the last time I did not get a copy paste response from an in game GM. Honestly I would rather companies reduce subscription cost and figure out another way to do in game support, than pay for what we get now. One idea would be to just go to an automated support system, yeah I know I can hear the groans of dismay from that idea, but hear me out. For my business I pay $35 U.S. a month for a virtual assistant that operates by voice command. It can send faxes, take messages, and pretty much do everything a secretary can do besides get you coffee. Plus you cannot even tell it is automated because of the quality of the program and voice actor they got to say the lines. MMOs can just do the same thing and save themselves tons of money since it is the same copy paste replies over and over again, just pay a machine to do it. I know I would not be able to tell the difference since ever conversation I have ever had within game support always goes the same. Then just pay people to do the technical support outside the game for the personal touch, problem solved!
Originally posted by fansede We can whine all day long on the forums about it, but the bottom line is : we are clueless what is involved with these companies and it is frankly none of our beeswax.
I am sorry but it is your responsibility to know about the company you are investing in with each purchase you make. As a consumer if I do not like what a business is doing I have the choice to not buy their products, but the only way you can do that is if you are informed about the business. So do not tell me it is none of my beeswax, I vote with my dollars to back the companies I am buying products from, you might just throw money at whoever comes along like a mindless prostitute giving your body away but do not tell how to spend mine. And I am sorry to inform you but if a company is publically traded then anyone can see their reports, so if you have half a brain you can know exactly what they are spending their money on.
Originally posted by striker29 I'm just echoing what's already been said and that's if the game is worth the sub fee to the gamer, they'll pay for it. That's all. The sub fee is not needed to keep it running.
Page 5. Looking at them it shows product sales alone are more than enough to cover their total costs. But if they can make more profit with subs, why not?
Exactly that, thank you.
See, what bothers me about this enire discussion is the abundant lying. Lies, lies, damn lies. If people could admit that they were paying a subscription knowing that it was doing nothing more than lining someone's pockets and not going into game costs, if they could admit this, then I'd have no issue with this thread.
It's the lies, damn lies, and subscription excuses that get me down. Unless a game is a niche title, then of course box sales are going to cover their costs. On box sales alone they're going to be able to turn a profit, and you're going to find this trend is repeated with every MMORPG. Why do you think that free-to-play is becoming such a thing? Because people are wising up.
If you ask the average person on the street about MMORPGs, you'll find they're actually smarter than the nerds in here!
No, really, not kidding about this!
I have bills to pay, and if I'm paying a subscription, I want to know what for. If it's just to line someone's pockets, then I'd rather play another game in which I'm not paying a subscription. I want complete transparency. If I walk into a shop and buy a product, I know what I'm getting. If I buy a game or DLC from XBox Live, I know what I'm getting. If I'm paying a subscription, then... what am I getting?
This is common wisdom.
And that we have nerds who're constantly making excuses for subscriptions just... it makes my skin crawl. I have no issues with people paying for subscriptions. If you want to do that, it's your loss, you know? If you want to throw your life away to a game, then, hell... be my guest. If you're not a friend of mine then it's not my responsibility to stop you from making poor choices. So I don't care about that.
What I do care about is when people try to con other people.
This drug costs more man because it's purer shit than what they sold you before, you should buy from them, they'll do you right.
And that's where my issue comes from with people who keep making excuses about subscriptions. They'll try and come up with any excuse to talk other people into paying for a subscription, and there are people out there whom are actually gullible enough to fall for this nonsense. If subscription-payers had the balls to just suck it up and say that they're paying for nothing, essentially, and that their subscription is a charge that didn't need to exist, but that they just wanted to pay it, to see a company more well off than it is, then that's fine.
But for crying out loud, let's just cut the bull. No more excuses. You're paying because you want to pay. You're giving monthlyy tips to the provider of the game you're getting, but those costs aren't going back into the game, and you're not getting anything from them.
If we can be honest about that, then... the Internet MMORPG community becomes a bit better of a place.
Comments
I agree with you for the most part. I know this is going to be a far fetched comparison but hear me out.
Hitler was a POS. What I highlighted in red is like a German saying if it puts food on my families plate and the recession we are in is so bad, why should I question his methods because it is none of my beeswax? So they should all just buy in and not wonder why?I am sure they Valued having a roof over there heads but at what cost? I am in no way saying games with subs are Nhazis, just pointing out that your logic is something I strongly disagree on and that was the first analogy that came to mind since I am in an econimics class and we are going over the German hyperinflation.
I want to know what my money is paying for and why all these other companies, big or small, feel the same about charging $15 a month. What sets it at the $15 mark? If a game is designed, unlike a console game, to take a huge amount of time to get to something that one can concidder an end, why charge the same box price as all other games at $50-$60 and still charge a sub fee? I am sorry but to not question and just take a company at their word that that is what it takes to keep them going and to produce more content for the consumer just isn't good enough for some. Especially when another company says the trend isn't necessary. That is also part of Capitalism. Company A says we need this money and company B says we can offer the same at a lesser cost to the consumer then the market will hopefully shift. But hey you are entitled to beleive what you want. If throwing money at a company because you feel that you are getting a good value more power to you.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
The only part I would question of this is the fact that GW1 has a command you can add to your shortcut to download everything so it is not in small chucks. I do not know anyone that owns GW1 that has not used this command, so how is it that ANet has turned a profit if their fans are not just allowing ever area to download when you enter into it, but instead downloading everything all at once in one huge update? Because according to Garriott’s own words that would put GW1 on the same play field as all the other NCsoft MMOs.
And for the instancing making it so you are tracking less date across the wider world is true, but it also means you are tracking dozens upon dozens of the same instance which uses guess what bandwidth. So as long as there is not too many instances open it would save on bandwidth in theory. Also that article is from 2006 server and bandwidth cost have declined since then, in fact it is declining year over year and from all the reports I have read that is going to continue for a long time since the technology is advancing and getting cheaper to make.
As for in game support I could care less that GW1 does not have them, I honestly cannot remember the last time I did not get a copy paste response from an in game GM. Honestly I would rather companies reduce subscription cost and figure out another way to do in game support, than pay for what we get now. One idea would be to just go to an automated support system, yeah I know I can hear the groans of dismay from that idea, but hear me out. For my business I pay $35 U.S. a month for a virtual assistant that operates by voice command. It can send faxes, take messages, and pretty much do everything a secretary can do besides get you coffee. Plus you cannot even tell it is automated because of the quality of the program and voice actor they got to say the lines. MMOs can just do the same thing and save themselves tons of money since it is the same copy paste replies over and over again, just pay a machine to do it. I know I would not be able to tell the difference since ever conversation I have ever had within game support always goes the same. Then just pay people to do the technical support outside the game for the personal touch, problem solved!
I am sorry but it is your responsibility to know about the company you are investing in with each purchase you make. As a consumer if I do not like what a business is doing I have the choice to not buy their products, but the only way you can do that is if you are informed about the business. So do not tell me it is none of my beeswax, I vote with my dollars to back the companies I am buying products from, you might just throw money at whoever comes along like a mindless prostitute giving your body away but do not tell how to spend mine. And I am sorry to inform you but if a company is publically traded then anyone can see their reports, so if you have half a brain you can know exactly what they are spending their money on.
Exactly that, thank you.
See, what bothers me about this enire discussion is the abundant lying. Lies, lies, damn lies. If people could admit that they were paying a subscription knowing that it was doing nothing more than lining someone's pockets and not going into game costs, if they could admit this, then I'd have no issue with this thread.
It's the lies, damn lies, and subscription excuses that get me down. Unless a game is a niche title, then of course box sales are going to cover their costs. On box sales alone they're going to be able to turn a profit, and you're going to find this trend is repeated with every MMORPG. Why do you think that free-to-play is becoming such a thing? Because people are wising up.
If you ask the average person on the street about MMORPGs, you'll find they're actually smarter than the nerds in here!
No, really, not kidding about this!
I have bills to pay, and if I'm paying a subscription, I want to know what for. If it's just to line someone's pockets, then I'd rather play another game in which I'm not paying a subscription. I want complete transparency. If I walk into a shop and buy a product, I know what I'm getting. If I buy a game or DLC from XBox Live, I know what I'm getting. If I'm paying a subscription, then... what am I getting?
This is common wisdom.
And that we have nerds who're constantly making excuses for subscriptions just... it makes my skin crawl. I have no issues with people paying for subscriptions. If you want to do that, it's your loss, you know? If you want to throw your life away to a game, then, hell... be my guest. If you're not a friend of mine then it's not my responsibility to stop you from making poor choices. So I don't care about that.
What I do care about is when people try to con other people.
This drug costs more man because it's purer shit than what they sold you before, you should buy from them, they'll do you right.
And that's where my issue comes from with people who keep making excuses about subscriptions. They'll try and come up with any excuse to talk other people into paying for a subscription, and there are people out there whom are actually gullible enough to fall for this nonsense. If subscription-payers had the balls to just suck it up and say that they're paying for nothing, essentially, and that their subscription is a charge that didn't need to exist, but that they just wanted to pay it, to see a company more well off than it is, then that's fine.
But for crying out loud, let's just cut the bull. No more excuses. You're paying because you want to pay. You're giving monthlyy tips to the provider of the game you're getting, but those costs aren't going back into the game, and you're not getting anything from them.
If we can be honest about that, then... the Internet MMORPG community becomes a bit better of a place.