I would like to see a fantasy game (not a game like second life) where there are player run businesses and institutions. For instance, a player-run tavern, where you can buy a plot of land, build the tavern, hire NPCs, and use the crafting skill in cooking and brewing to supply the restaurant. Other players could then come into your tavern and buy your food and beer.
The same concept can be applied to an armoury, weapon shops, potion shops, etc
...
What do you think? Could it work? Would you play a game with these features?
It worked in the 90's - no reason that it can't work now. I tended bar at Perianwyr Stormcrow's Serpent's Cross Tavern on the Atlantic server every Thursday night for about a year in UO. That was one of dozens of establishments that were built and run by players in that game. Here's a list of some of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wouldn't come within a hundred miles of a game that used Loke's described mechanics. I've seen way too much shady guild goings on to ever trust them with my housing arrangements, much less my business dealings!
However, a game that allowed guilds to build cities with nobles and so on and so forth but then had a place for tinkers with their rickety little horse drawn carts to wander freely (note the emphasis) to and from would interest me. Let the big cities and their guilds, their nobles, and their commoners trade within their city walls. Let enterprising soloers travel from city to city, buying and selling goods where they wish. Though certainly subject to NPC roving bandits and possibly subject to some player bandits. Just never enough to make trade routes unprofitable. Tricky balancing, that.
Edit: No offense, Loke, I just don't want to go to jail for hunting down some guild leader after he kicks all his surplus members and keeps their stuff!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I used to run a tailor shop in SWG that sold a variety of clothing in a variety of rare colors, accessories, bags, kick ass swoop bikes (98% durability) and house deeds and some furniture and I completely loved it. Master merchants could set up vendors that were people... you could pick the race you wanted and decorate your vendor in different clothing. I made 13 million credits in under 6 months and keeping my vendors stocked and finding the best resources to craft with was a full time job. Most fun I've ever had in a game... I was establishing a real name and rep when the NGE hit and the game collapsed.
I miss it. I would love to find another game where I could do that again.
Well unhfortunately the OP "IS" talking about the same thing as Entropy or Second life.
I think those games get away with it because of very low poly graphics.Eve si the same thiung low poly graphics tons of empty space with very little animation.
I guess it could work in a zoned atmosphere,however what would be the purpose?it is not like there would be any realitiy,it honestly would end being exactly like Second Life.
For this to work,it would need a game thta allows players to generate the content.That wouldn't work either as we don't have the capacity or tech to go that far just yet,everything would have to be pre rendered and probably not very exciting at that.
The way i see this working in the future,is to allow players to run their own planets in a single zone ,sepcifically run by them.Once entering that zone you have to load al lthe objects/textures for tha tzone ,then dump them when leaving.or give the player the choice,some people might have a ton of storage space to store all new models and content.You could set your own rule set in that zone,and decide how rare or valuable items would be.
The bottom line is players in this genre seem to be very superficial in that they all want some valuable loot,or they will ignore that content.People are not much into hanging out and chatting unless they are arguing or sharing their Chuck Norris jokes,that nobody wants to hear.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs. But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles. Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs. But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles. Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.
Actually there are heaps of games coming out / came out that doesn't involve 'swinging a sword'.
NFS:World, Free Realms, A tale in the desert, Business Tycoon something or rather, Football Manager Online etc etc.
There is a single player version of what the OP wants.
But what would having player owned stalls in a capital city do for WoW? The crafted items are either worthless, or cost so much that the only people who would buy them are people who bought gold online or they want to set up their 10th character for raiding ASAP
OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs. But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles. Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.
I think you mean "a sub group of the MMO Gamer population" and not "Developers." The developers can certainly comprehend other designs, and the MMOs are out there to prove that. Some players, however, will reject games for not being the same as what they played 10 years ago. What's worse is that they are usually the ones that are complaining the market is stagnant and lacks creativity or innovation, often referring to their ideal game with terms such as 'true' 'real' or "pure" to reinforce that is the 'right way' to make an MMO.
Play something outside the mainstream. You'll find that there are a ton of different approaches to the genre besides, orcs, swords, levels and gear changing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.
Vanilla WOW had AHs, so player stalls weren't really going to add anything even back then.
Some other form of business-running feature, like a building which you rent which automatically produces items for you as long as you keep it filled with materials, could've worked, but market stalls couldn't.
As for the other poster's crafted items comment, maybe he only played Vanilla WOW too, because throughout most of WOW (and certainly after BC) crafting has provided very solid item choices. People get distracted by the loads of common items required to improve tradeskills, I suppose, such that they don't notice that at the end of the line there are great items to be made.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well Second Life was built around those principles and the only thing that thrived on there was porn, so it doesn't bode well :P
I was just thinking that the Oldest Profession is the obvious business to set up...provided the game's rules and rating allow it.
And none of them will let you proselytise your way into the Second Oldest and start a cult, without getting banned. Game companies are sensitive about religion.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs. But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles. Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.
And numbers. Ever increasing numbers. And a preplanned system of connect the dots to get those ever bigger numbers.
One thing I hate about our human nature is how we all become petty tyrants given half a chance. In a game where players control things we will have an imbalance of power and then they will exploit and victimize the weak like they do in real life. I have no faith in human nature therefore I have no faith in them to be fair. In a game like that people like me who work hard and playa ccording to the ruels end up losing. No thanks I pass.
This. Even if op ideas sound good on paper ,a game like that would be probably destroyed fast by the huge numbers of players who seem to find their pleasure in griefing others. About Vanilla Wow having decent items from crafting,maybe i don't remember well (my main at that time was a druid with herbalism/alchemy) but i didn't found anything decent at ah from other crafters,all good items were from raids and before that dungeons or a few epic world drops.
I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.
Vanilla WOW had AHs, so player stalls weren't really going to add anything even back then.
Some other form of business-running feature, like a building which you rent which automatically produces items for you as long as you keep it filled with materials, could've worked, but market stalls couldn't.
As for the other poster's crafted items comment, maybe he only played Vanilla WOW too, because throughout most of WOW (and certainly after BC) crafting has provided very solid item choices. People get distracted by the loads of common items required to improve tradeskills, I suppose, such that they don't notice that at the end of the line there are great items to be made.
The problem with high end crafted items in WoW is that most of the time they are crafted on a bring-your-own-mats system. It is not worth it for the crafters to make the items ahead of time and instead they offer the service of putting the item together from mats and only taking a fee/tip for it. This system bypasses both the AH and any vendor stall system.
I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.
Vanilla WOW had AHs, so player stalls weren't really going to add anything even back then.
Some other form of business-running feature, like a building which you rent which automatically produces items for you as long as you keep it filled with materials, could've worked, but market stalls couldn't.
As for the other poster's crafted items comment, maybe he only played Vanilla WOW too, because throughout most of WOW (and certainly after BC) crafting has provided very solid item choices. People get distracted by the loads of common items required to improve tradeskills, I suppose, such that they don't notice that at the end of the line there are great items to be made.
The problem with high end crafted items in WoW is that most of the time they are crafted on a bring-your-own-mats system. It is not worth it for the crafters to make the items ahead of time and instead they offer the service of putting the item together from mats and only taking a fee/tip for it. This system bypasses both the AH and any vendor stall system.
Well that's only really a problem of expecting to be able to pre-produce items for profit, and not a problem with crafting not being useful (because it clearly produces useful items.)
It's not like you couldn't make a vendor stall system out of that though: Rent a stall; players pay a fee for your character to combine items, even while you're offline. Not quite enough utility to justify the system, perhaps, but it's close.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
SWG basically did this, where people turned their in-game housing into shops by decorating them and adding NPC vendors. Later cantinas and other structures were added.
This was a very deep aspect of the game, which was part of the whole crafting, resource, commerce aspect and would take days to break it all down and explain it. It provided a *complete* non-combat game experience.
Basically, as long as you can control the economy, and keep the game developers from changing the game drastically every few months, it works great. SOE jacked with the game so much, including changing things like decay, and the value of loot, tat the whole system eventually started to break down. However it went from launch until NGE working pretty damned well.
The Auction House helped ruin MMO's in my opinion. Developing relationships with crafters, selling them crafting resources, visiting their lavish and creatively decorated shops was a huge part of the game. Because you had to travel long distances to buy from them sometimes, you ended up meeting new people and having adventures that you otherwise wouldn't.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Why not ask for a game where you can just buy a plot that's just pitch black or plain white. Just create and do whatever on it, this so called open and persistent player controlled world some of you want.
I mean ever game released is greeted with "It has too much or too little of it,"They should of done this instead of that." It's almost like you want the game to be created, but not so much just the base or foundation of it. Oh, wait, we really don't want you to create that either, let us the players do that too.
Let's just forget the idea that developers who come up with games can be creative just like artist, but it takes a team to do it,
The single most important design philosophy in any game development, whether it be a card or board game or an MMORPG, is the age old question "is it fun?"
With that said, this concept has a lot of merit, I personally feel it is the direction that MMORPGs as virtual worlds, need to take to truly blossom. Whether the specific scenario you depicted would work is a whole other question. That is the delicacy of a design approach like this: yo must tread lightly. One of the best approaches to attempting something relatively innovative and un-tested such as this is iterative design. Build a rough working build of the system and see if it is fun. The touchy thing with your scenario is whether or not virtual food/brew is worth the player investment (read: time), does it bring them fun? I would reply: it depends on the mechanics. You can make the most mundane of tasks engaging if you provide the right atmosphere and the right mechanics.
Another problem to your scenario is context. When you have a great design feature mplemented into a game that follows a very different design approach it will clash, you want to make sure there is a perfect synergy between sub-systems such as combat/conflict and player ran businesses. Can this business be robbed (risk adds to immersion, reward, and overall fun)? Can it be defended? What can a player do to set their business apart from other businesses? It is within this synergy of mechanics that an iterative design approach will find the flaws and kinks of a design and help the team create a unity. Otherwise the team might head down a path that is not fun, does not mesh well with other sub-systems and ultimately detracts from the game rather than adding to it.
MMORPGs have much to learn from other genres, such as the social apps like FarmVille, in this realm. However, it is knowledge that must be weighed and measured carefully, so that it meshes well.
Comments
It worked in the 90's - no reason that it can't work now. I tended bar at Perianwyr Stormcrow's Serpent's Cross Tavern on the Atlantic server every Thursday night for about a year in UO. That was one of dozens of establishments that were built and run by players in that game. Here's a list of some of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wouldn't come within a hundred miles of a game that used Loke's described mechanics. I've seen way too much shady guild goings on to ever trust them with my housing arrangements, much less my business dealings!
However, a game that allowed guilds to build cities with nobles and so on and so forth but then had a place for tinkers with their rickety little horse drawn carts to wander freely (note the emphasis) to and from would interest me. Let the big cities and their guilds, their nobles, and their commoners trade within their city walls. Let enterprising soloers travel from city to city, buying and selling goods where they wish. Though certainly subject to NPC roving bandits and possibly subject to some player bandits. Just never enough to make trade routes unprofitable. Tricky balancing, that.
Edit: No offense, Loke, I just don't want to go to jail for hunting down some guild leader after he kicks all his surplus members and keeps their stuff!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I used to run a tailor shop in SWG that sold a variety of clothing in a variety of rare colors, accessories, bags, kick ass swoop bikes (98% durability) and house deeds and some furniture and I completely loved it. Master merchants could set up vendors that were people... you could pick the race you wanted and decorate your vendor in different clothing. I made 13 million credits in under 6 months and keeping my vendors stocked and finding the best resources to craft with was a full time job. Most fun I've ever had in a game... I was establishing a real name and rep when the NGE hit and the game collapsed.
I miss it. I would love to find another game where I could do that again.
No bitchers.
Well unhfortunately the OP "IS" talking about the same thing as Entropy or Second life.
I think those games get away with it because of very low poly graphics.Eve si the same thiung low poly graphics tons of empty space with very little animation.
I guess it could work in a zoned atmosphere,however what would be the purpose?it is not like there would be any realitiy,it honestly would end being exactly like Second Life.
For this to work,it would need a game thta allows players to generate the content.That wouldn't work either as we don't have the capacity or tech to go that far just yet,everything would have to be pre rendered and probably not very exciting at that.
The way i see this working in the future,is to allow players to run their own planets in a single zone ,sepcifically run by them.Once entering that zone you have to load al lthe objects/textures for tha tzone ,then dump them when leaving.or give the player the choice,some people might have a ton of storage space to store all new models and content.You could set your own rule set in that zone,and decide how rare or valuable items would be.
The bottom line is players in this genre seem to be very superficial in that they all want some valuable loot,or they will ignore that content.People are not much into hanging out and chatting unless they are arguing or sharing their Chuck Norris jokes,that nobody wants to hear.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs. But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles. Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Actually there are heaps of games coming out / came out that doesn't involve 'swinging a sword'.
NFS:World, Free Realms, A tale in the desert, Business Tycoon something or rather, Football Manager Online etc etc.
There is a single player version of what the OP wants.
Recettear: An Item Shops Tale
http://store.steampowered.com/app/70400/?snr=1_4_4__13
If you look beyond the anime graphics, it has a surprizingly amount of depth.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I have always thought blizzard could have added player rented vendor stalls in the capital cities.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
But what would having player owned stalls in a capital city do for WoW? The crafted items are either worthless, or cost so much that the only people who would buy them are people who bought gold online or they want to set up their 10th character for raiding ASAP
I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I think you mean "a sub group of the MMO Gamer population" and not "Developers." The developers can certainly comprehend other designs, and the MMOs are out there to prove that. Some players, however, will reject games for not being the same as what they played 10 years ago. What's worse is that they are usually the ones that are complaining the market is stagnant and lacks creativity or innovation, often referring to their ideal game with terms such as 'true' 'real' or "pure" to reinforce that is the 'right way' to make an MMO.
Play something outside the mainstream. You'll find that there are a ton of different approaches to the genre besides, orcs, swords, levels and gear changing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Vanilla WOW had AHs, so player stalls weren't really going to add anything even back then.
Some other form of business-running feature, like a building which you rent which automatically produces items for you as long as you keep it filled with materials, could've worked, but market stalls couldn't.
As for the other poster's crafted items comment, maybe he only played Vanilla WOW too, because throughout most of WOW (and certainly after BC) crafting has provided very solid item choices. People get distracted by the loads of common items required to improve tradeskills, I suppose, such that they don't notice that at the end of the line there are great items to be made.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I was just thinking that the Oldest Profession is the obvious business to set up...provided the game's rules and rating allow it.
And none of them will let you proselytise your way into the Second Oldest and start a cult, without getting banned. Game companies are sensitive about religion.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And numbers. Ever increasing numbers. And a preplanned system of connect the dots to get those ever bigger numbers.
How exciting. (...yawn...)
Once upon a time....
This. Even if op ideas sound good on paper ,a game like that would be probably destroyed fast by the huge numbers of players who seem to find their pleasure in griefing others.About Vanilla Wow having decent items from crafting,maybe i don't remember well (my main at that time was a druid with herbalism/alchemy) but i didn't found anything decent at ah from other crafters,all good items were from raids and before that dungeons or a few epic world drops.
The problem with high end crafted items in WoW is that most of the time they are crafted on a bring-your-own-mats system. It is not worth it for the crafters to make the items ahead of time and instead they offer the service of putting the item together from mats and only taking a fee/tip for it. This system bypasses both the AH and any vendor stall system.
Well that's only really a problem of expecting to be able to pre-produce items for profit, and not a problem with crafting not being useful (because it clearly produces useful items.)
It's not like you couldn't make a vendor stall system out of that though: Rent a stall; players pay a fee for your character to combine items, even while you're offline. Not quite enough utility to justify the system, perhaps, but it's close.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
SWG basically did this, where people turned their in-game housing into shops by decorating them and adding NPC vendors. Later cantinas and other structures were added.
This was a very deep aspect of the game, which was part of the whole crafting, resource, commerce aspect and would take days to break it all down and explain it. It provided a *complete* non-combat game experience.
Basically, as long as you can control the economy, and keep the game developers from changing the game drastically every few months, it works great. SOE jacked with the game so much, including changing things like decay, and the value of loot, tat the whole system eventually started to break down. However it went from launch until NGE working pretty damned well.
The Auction House helped ruin MMO's in my opinion. Developing relationships with crafters, selling them crafting resources, visiting their lavish and creatively decorated shops was a huge part of the game. Because you had to travel long distances to buy from them sometimes, you ended up meeting new people and having adventures that you otherwise wouldn't.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Why not ask for a game where you can just buy a plot that's just pitch black or plain white. Just create and do whatever on it, this so called open and persistent player controlled world some of you want.
I mean ever game released is greeted with "It has too much or too little of it,"They should of done this instead of that." It's almost like you want the game to be created, but not so much just the base or foundation of it. Oh, wait, we really don't want you to create that either, let us the players do that too.
Let's just forget the idea that developers who come up with games can be creative just like artist, but it takes a team to do it,
The single most important design philosophy in any game development, whether it be a card or board game or an MMORPG, is the age old question "is it fun?"
With that said, this concept has a lot of merit, I personally feel it is the direction that MMORPGs as virtual worlds, need to take to truly blossom. Whether the specific scenario you depicted would work is a whole other question. That is the delicacy of a design approach like this: yo must tread lightly. One of the best approaches to attempting something relatively innovative and un-tested such as this is iterative design. Build a rough working build of the system and see if it is fun. The touchy thing with your scenario is whether or not virtual food/brew is worth the player investment (read: time), does it bring them fun? I would reply: it depends on the mechanics. You can make the most mundane of tasks engaging if you provide the right atmosphere and the right mechanics.
Another problem to your scenario is context. When you have a great design feature mplemented into a game that follows a very different design approach it will clash, you want to make sure there is a perfect synergy between sub-systems such as combat/conflict and player ran businesses. Can this business be robbed (risk adds to immersion, reward, and overall fun)? Can it be defended? What can a player do to set their business apart from other businesses? It is within this synergy of mechanics that an iterative design approach will find the flaws and kinks of a design and help the team create a unity. Otherwise the team might head down a path that is not fun, does not mesh well with other sub-systems and ultimately detracts from the game rather than adding to it.
MMORPGs have much to learn from other genres, such as the social apps like FarmVille, in this realm. However, it is knowledge that must be weighed and measured carefully, so that it meshes well.