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General: Free Players are Toxic
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
In the latest Devil's Advocate column, MMORPG.com Community Manager Mike Bitton takes umbrage at the notion that free players in converted MMO such as Lord of the Rings Online are somehow "toxic" and unwelcome by those who are either premium members or former subscribers. Check out Mike's ideas about the non-toxicity of free players in our latest Devil's Advocate column and then weigh in with your own thoughts in the comments.
The new problem, and this tends to be more of an issue for existing MMOs that are converting over, is that some of the MMO gamers who intend to stick with their subscriptions even when their MMOs go hybrid are turning their noses up at the incoming ‘riff-raff’. I’ve noticed that many who choose to continue to subscribe view the rush of free players as a negative, even toxic, for their game’s community. They say that free players will bring in rampant hacking, increase gold seller activity, and really upend the community with terrible overall behavior.
Read more of Mike Bitton's The Devil's Advocate: Free Players are Toxic.
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Comments
Well the so called "great success" has never been proven by numbers after the first month, so I wouldn't buy their PR crap for a minute.
Personally I don't want the p2w crowd (especially their mentality) in "my" games, thats why I chose to pay a monthly fee, there are mindsets and people I refuse to deal with it.
I know its the devils advocate but Jesus you don't seriously believe the money will be spend on development? It goes to the damn suits, adding more and more p2w stuff. Examples:
lotor - xp / stat scrolls
aoc - GEAR and xp / stations for $
The p2w model is only used for failed games as a mechanic to squeeze out more money upfront and then slowly cut the customer service and other things by focussing more on putting items in the $tore.
The p2p is here to stay and I'm glad it is, rather have a monthly fee instead an imersion breaker and shop buttons all over the place, maybe in a rip-off way lotro, aoc, ddo, co and STO are using it?
People who are ok with that, aren't the ones I'd wanna play with or share a game with, cause I'm sure they've already bought gold or other p2w stuff already.
Sure not all are toxic but as always those who stick with their games build a community and if new players can come in without entry-walls they can troll and go out without every paying a meaning, they don#t care if their account is getting banned or not so they'll flame, troll and just use an overall bad behaviour.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
People just want to complain on game forums. First, they complain about small populations or lack of development, then when new players come in, they just complain about them.
F2p models are more toxic than players....AoC " f2p" shop is a joke
every other korean f2p is "toxic"
turbine f2p is nice
, u can "Farm" points while playing (TAKES A WHILE and feels like a BIG grind , but its doable)
I went back to City of Heroes to check out what the older players thought of thier model, surprsingly they loved it. I'm not sure if it's because the game was dying without a new influx of players, but they genuinly were complacent about the new model.
Although if you're that uptight about new players being toxic, you could play a game like runescape that segregates the two.
I think it's funny that you draw a similarity between the F2P model and pay to win players, really pay to win is something separate from F2P because it's in P2P also. Gold buying is as rampent as ever and most companies do not do a whole lot about people buying it only really the people selling it.
Not to mention being someone who has done raiding in multiple games, any game where gold is nessasary there is usually a significant number of people in the end game circles who have bought gold and other crap. Usually they are pretty honest about it, especially since i admit it also. It's really a play time issue more than anything.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I sub and freeplay (lotro I have a lifetime) and although at times FP can attract a certain type of player that most of us don't like. The overreaction to free players can far exceeds any annoyance that can be caused by them. I think it's related to the elitism that is rampant in mmo's these days. People are looking for an identity in games and many will do anything to get it. Negative or not. And if you treat people badly or with a lack of respect they tend to strike back. And yes I said respect. A word often thrown around like a weapon while ignoring the basic respect we should all have for others.
Not true! Subscription games are an even playing field becuase insteadof everyone spending zero dollars, everyone is spending 15 dollars. No one buys gold or items to advance in those games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm tired of constantly, and utterly, DESTROYING PayToWin games. In the billions of threads that are started on these forums, mainly by the column writers!
So I'll simply say this:
-PayToWin is only for Western MMOs that tried to copy WoW too much and are dieing, so they went PayToWin to keep themselves from FAILING. Being crap is no where NEAR as bad as being a FAILURE.
-PayToWin revitalizes a game for a specific reason: It makes MORE money than only 5000 subscribers. If it were FREEToPlay, it would NOT make MORE money. This, by default, means it's WORSE than $15/month.
-$15/month PayToPlay models are the best, because EVERYONE pays the $15 and EVERYONE is on a level playing field. Other players CANNOT "legally" pay for Gold to advance faster than others with RealWorld money, instead of EARNING it like EVERYONE else who are paying the standard flat $15/month. It's FAIR, and creates a LEVEL playing field. Unlike PayToWin.
PayToWin will NEVER be the new "Standard". It's already going out of style as it is, and the general Western Gamer is waking up. Planetside2 announced their "Free" model, but it's NOT actually a PayToWin model. Planetside2's "Free" model is NOTHING more than a glorified unlimited free trial with a CAP on your rank (I think it's going to be 5?). This means Planetside 2 will ALWAYS have "grunts" to constantly wage War on Planetside 2, but the ONLY way to progress past their extended "Free" trial is to BUY their $15/month FLAT rate subscription model.
Look @ Eve, they tried to add in a PayToWin model, and more than 80% of the subscriber base THREATENED CCP with instant /rageQuit. I think that pretty much outlines how the general gamer feels. Future games WILL learn or they will NOT be supported.
-Faded
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You can't really be that tired, because you have destroyed nothing. You are trying to impose your opinion of FTP games onto others. That will never work. Ask yourself, would I listen to someone if they were talking like I am now?
I keep seeing the ignorant posters call every FTP model PTW. This is completely false. First, what exactly are these people "winning". Faster leveling, less grind, etc. big deal. It does not affect anyone but the individual.
Second, all pure subscription games could also be referred to PTW. You pay a sub, you get to play. You don't pay, you don't play, and if you are not playing, you are not "winning" anything.
People need to get over themselves on this issue. FTP is not going away. Other players don't care if you play their game or not, same as everyone else.
I sub to games if I feel it is worth my entertainment dollar. I have subbed to some games after trying the FTP models, and some I have not. The ones I don't sub to, generally do not get played enough. The obvious conclusion from this is "If you like a game enough, you will pay for it."
To say that sub only games are superior is very ignorant and closed-minded.
The thing I find...funny...about this general discussion is the following:
For years and years and years, so many years - we've built up this hatred for gold farmers, gold sellers, and gold buyers. The "developers" were right there with us - banning those that sold and bought.
Now, the "developers" are the gold sellers. We're supposed to be cool with that - we're supposed to be okay with those that buy.
The "bad guys" are the "good guys"...now, eh?
Obviously there has been the market for those that have more money than time, for those that lack the patience to earn anything in the game as opposed to buying it... the "developers" have been fighting it for so many years...
...so they have changed their view, they've decided to tap that market. Several enterprising "developers" have even gone about increasing that "grind" feel to certain aspects of the game to increase the amount of shopping done in their stores.
They can decrease the costs at the store, increase the grind, and actually make more money on the cumulative effect of all of the micro-transactions. Some say sound business - some say scam... I'm in the latter.
Makes me think of the grocery store, to be honest. We had X price for Y product. They kept X the while slowly reducing Y. As people got used to paying X for Y2, they slowly started to increase X. So now people are paying X2 for Y2... they're paying more for less. Rather than increase X for Y... they've scammed the consumer.
Can't forget that companies are in business to make a profit... MMOs are no different. So, they're going to scam the average consumer.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
But um, it does affect other people. These are MMOs. They are not single player games. It is not a case that Bob is playing an offline copy of TheGame and decides to buy some DLC that Joe does not.
There are economies. They are limited resources. There are a myriad of ways that even something like "faster leveling" will change in the game.
That person will not be there with others that are leveling up that have not partaken of the increased leveling speed. So there will be less groups. There will be less time spent in a level range, so there will be fewer items available on the AH - or - there will be fewer people spending money in the AH.
As the person reaches "endgame" faster, "endgame" will become crowded faster. Depending on the game, that might be a good thing - taking into consideration such things as faction imbalance for PvP, if the game is more of a game lobby - well, then there would be more people to run that instanced content. If the game is not a game lobby, well then you have people fighting over limited resources.
It just boggles my mind that people do not think that what they do in a game affects the game... um, hello? It's one of the reasons that many of us play MMOs...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
the p2w crowd play subscription based mmo's aswell you know, so its about time you got off your high horse. if two games have equal quality and ones is pay to play and the other is buy to play then only an idiot would play the game with a subscription fee.
but by all means keep paying 15 bucks a month for a game that you already paid 50 bucks for and shelled out even morel for expansions. The subscription model was needed back in 1999 when server technology was expensive now its just a scam.
I really wonder at those who just plain "FREAK OUT" when Freemium is talked about.
i play LoTRO and i love it, i am a paying customer (VIP) and i have been known to occasionally buy some items from the Turbine store.
Not once did i feel i was getting an advantage over other players by purchasing something from the Virtual goods store.
I think if old MMO's (DAoC, Vanguard, Anarchy Online) changed to the same idea Turbine uses for there 2 Freemium, then i can see more and more players playing older games and even re-invigorating them.
The Free to Play and Pay to Win mentality needs to be seperated with more rational thought. As long as the developer of those games remember that those items they sell better not give major game advantages, over those who do not buy items, then i dont see this as a big deal.
There are alot of "Eastern" F2P games (Rappelz, Perfect World) that make you pay for weapons armor and other Pay to Win items, those games i strongly advise to stay away from.
But if the single largest advantage you can get from a game Like LoTRO is a bit of a faster leveling curve, why does one care? Why does one get angry if some guy got to level 75 2 days faster then you ? Its another person to help in end game raid, another comrade to assist in RvR/endgame PvP.
I think the "Sky is falling" freakers need to relax a bit and calm down about the drift to Freemium. Its happening, and the one thing you can do is try to sculpt it into an appropriate form of payment.
Lolipops !
It also boggles the mind that people think the "game" is being affected by how fast someone levels, or how they chose to go about it.
Your 'effects' occur whether or not the game is FTP or PTP. If you are referring to pure PTW games, then you are off-topic.
I have yet to encounter a western FTP/Hybrid or pure Sub game, that you actually "Win".
I could care less if someone pays to be highest level in one day. It does not mean I have to do it. It does not effect me. I play the old fashioned way, and someone else buying the 'perceived' advantage dowes not matter. I am not forced to play with them nor am I forced to compete with them.
If you are playing MMOs for how you can affect the game, then you are probably missing the point. They are there for entertainment., fun, escape, etc. In other words, not to be taken too seriously.
Remember, don't let someone elses idea of fun, determine your fun, and vice versa.
Cheers
The problem with free players is they normally tend to be kids. Kids have a different objective when it comes to playing games. They are just looking to whack stuff, cast spells, and do amazing things they can't do in real life. They are not looking to be the best, they don't care if they fail missions, quest, etc. Any game is awesome as a kid, because it sure beats going to school.
So, really, I don't think they are "toxic" or retarded, although in the past I did. I think they are just kids. And at a certain age players stop being awed by cool spells, dying orcs and all the other distractions, and are actually more concerned with accomplishments.
There are two different groups that are conflicting with each other; kids and gamers. When those two mix you have people getting frustrated and annoyed.
I was once in a conversation with another player regarding free access to Freemium / Hybrid games.
Free players are there for three things:
1. Make the game world feel alive by keeping population in it.
2. Gives the PVPers someone to kill. PVP on a dead server is boring.
3. Provides revenue via cash shop item sales to offset the increased operating costs of non-subscribing players. Might even turn a modest profit on top of that.
Man, did I get an unexpected response. "No way. Those are not the real reasons, it's free because they want it to be free"
I couldn't respond. Some are too far disconnected from the reality to see the big picture. I think that's where the toxic part starts coming into play.
you can't win in mmorpg's on your own! so the p2w term is just something thrown about by people who cant stand others having better items than them. you need other people in order to win in mmo's.
It's funny how conditioning can make people accept something as fact. 12 years ago the thought of paying a subscription fee for a game you already paid for was a very sour subject, so get ready to be re-conditioned because the subscription model is a thing of the past.
Really????
Maybe you are forgetting that LOTRO, AOC, DDO, EQ2-Unlimited all have subscription models?
The cash shop is something to earn more revenue from subscribers. I'd love to see how much a non-subscriber spends compared to a subscriber. I guarantee the subscriber is spending a lot more. The cash shop is there for subscribers - who are spending cash every month, rather than the "free" player who sporadically spends - granted 5 dollars from a free player is more revenue than if they still had a strict no sub no play policy. Subscribers are subsidizing free players by not only paying the sub fee, but buying cash shop items are a greater rate.
You're forgetting the free part is nothing more than a glorified, never-ending free trial. Sure, its going to bring in a small amount of revenue, but the bulk is coming from subscribers - long term players.
Sub model a thing of the past? HAHAHA. Hardly. Sub model and cash shop is sadly the future. And thanks to gullible players like you(who don't think about consequences) you encourage companies to invest more resources in the cash shop, rather than gameplay.
There is nothing about Lotro that is pay to win, period. Yep you can get stuff to level a bit faster, big deal, that has nothing to do with pay to win. You can also get those items in game. Most of AoC stuff is innocuous too.
Pay to win is where you have large advantages over other players, more specifically in pvp than pve.
Why are people assuming that Hybrid/Freemium's are the same thing as a pay to win game? As much as I'm not onboard with the ftp model, this article was well written and mostly correct.
I kind of...you know...outlined it there - even how it is different. So um...you know...er...yeah....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Some MUDs charged. Even NWN back on AOL was a P2P model. We're going back over 20 years ago...
As for the sub model being a thing of the past, well - I give you this:
How has celluar service evolved?
It would appear that MMO companies are going backwards, eh?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%