I find it ironic that the players that made WOW popular, the players of the game that defined casual gameplay and led to the destruction of hardcore mmorpgs, are actually complaining about what their WOW has devolved into.
Seriously, those old "hardcore" WOW players know now how we old mmorpg players felt about the changes their game forced on the market.
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
Their game evolved our genre more than any previous title.
Then, somehow, they managed to start taking three steps backwards for every one step forward. I attribute this to the changes made to the team over the years. Ever since GC entered the picture the game has been on a downward spiral with no hope of ever returning to those glory days.
The saddest part is that he doesn't even realize how much his direction has damaged the game, the IP and the reputation of Blizzard as a whole. He has taken the ignorance is bliss approach from day one and never looked back.
GC's direction = a hard-on for vanilla WoW with Cataclysm bringing about a removal of factionless hub cities, "new" zones all interconnected within the old world, and a return to "difficult" raid content and time consuming dungeon design?
The problem is as all of these things become more accessible .. even if there were hard modes that were as challenging as they used to be and had vastly superior loot, we have to weed through an increasing number of bad players who think they should be able to do everything in the the game just because they logged in that day. As opposed to the specialized raid environments of the past where a group of people got together a dedicated themselves to conquering unique and difficult encounters.
Also the addition of server transfers are a huge reason that wow and other games have reached an almost unrecoverable state of suck. You couldn't guild hop for very long back in the day. There was a community of players and you had to at least in some degree respect that, and them. Now you can do whatever the hell you want and just transfer when everyone hates you. Or roll a new character even because now that it is too easy to level like it is in most games if you get a bad name you just need a couple of weeks to create a new character .. instead of a couple of months.
Accessibility kills what made an MMO an MMO .. and it is not about elitists being able to feel elite. It is about community and a cooperative experience which is deader than Hoffa.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I find it ironic that the players that made WOW popular, the players of the game that defined casual gameplay and led to the destruction of hardcore mmorpgs, are actually complaining about what their WOW has devolved into.
Seriously, those old "hardcore" WOW players know now how we old mmorpg players felt about the changes their game forced on the market.
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
Did it? The market for MMO's is MUCH larger now, than it was seven years ago. A good part of that is the business and invester types wanting a piece of that sweet WoW pie, and attracted by the increased profits to be made. WoW has made MMO's much more main stream, and has thus helped to make many more games available. You may not like most of those, but thats simply the nature of such things.
Blizzard has made *billions* from WoW over the years. They would hardly have been able to do that, if they were not providing a service that millions and millions of gamers wanted. I seriously doubt that we would be seeing the number of present and future games that we are, if not for WoW's impact. For all of its faults (which are legion...) WoW remains a good game up for level cap.
Lets keep in mind that this IS a game, and thus all about entertainment. If you don't like it, find some other game thats more to your liking, or perhaps another hobby.
Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by daeandor
I find it ironic that the players that made WOW popular, the players of the game that defined casual gameplay and led to the destruction of hardcore mmorpgs, are actually complaining about what their WOW has devolved into.
Seriously, those old "hardcore" WOW players know now how we old mmorpg players felt about the changes their game forced on the market.
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
Did it? The market for MMO's is MUCH larger now, than it was seven years ago. A good part of that is the business and invester types wanting a piece of that sweet WoW pie, and attracted by the increased profits to be made. WoW has made MMO's much more main stream, and has thus helped to make many more games available. You may not like most of those, but thats simply the nature of such things. Blizzard has made *billions* from WoW over the years. They would hardly have been able to do that, if they were not providing a service that millions and millions of gamers wanted. I seriously doubt that we would be seeing the number of present and future games that we are, if not for WoW's impact. For all of its faults (which are legion...) WoW remains a good game up for level cap. Lets keep in mind that this IS a game, and thus all about entertainment. If you don't like it, find some other game thats more to your liking, or perhaps another hobby.
He's implying that the mmo genre is dead, but that the massively multiplayer arcade game (or some other not-so-clever concoction of words) genre is alive and thriving.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
..........
He's implying that the mmo genre is dead, but that the massively multiplayer arcade game (or some other not-so-clever concoction of words) genre is alive and thriving.
Exactly back in the good old days I could log on ask for ooc champ check and was set. Nowadays you login find a group:
- TS?
- IDs?
- gogo!
thats not my idea of socializing with other people. I don't want to play in a seperated world doing some jump n run style known as instances. I want a camp and stick their with a group till level up, not worrying about voicetools, ids or other crap such as badges for loot.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I remember back in BC, a lot of guilds took over a week to just down Moroes when they first started raiding, my guild came along and we killed him on the first night, we became instant server celebrities and it really encouraged us to progress through the raids. Nowadays that mentality is gone, all the bosses die on pretty much first contact and everybody is at the same level. It's gotten to a rediculous level of ease, something so impressive as actually killing Arthas in wrath was attained by every single player I saw. I know scores of players who have left the game, many of us moved to EVE Online to play in a world where you earned what you worked for to try and achieve that sense of accomplishment we once felt while raiding BC but seems all nigh unattainable in the World of Warcraft as it exists today.
Sounds a whole lot like an "I'm a better gamer than everyone else, so if it's not just me and a select few beating bosses, then it's too easy" post
"Literate forum goers..." Although what this guy had to say was in one ear and out the other, I /really/ stopped caring as soon as he summarized the people whose voices are heard the most on forums as "literate".
Okay, so when you were 10 and Everquest first came out, you had plenty of time to sit there and gnaw on your desk over hour long corpse retrievals. I get it, you're "hardcore".
Okay, so when you were a teenager, WoW was HARD and took a long time just to organize a raid together (40 man) and then the act of successfully completing it was no small feat. ...I get it, you're "hardcore".
Okay, so now that you're an adult (20s - 30s), you're playing these games, sitting back thinking to yourself: "I liked it better when things were more time consuming - because the amount of TIME you dedicate to accomplishing ONE thing makes you HARDCORE."
But you know what? If you still have that kind of time on your hands, you're either A) Living in your parent's basement. Or Too ugly to have a social life. Or C) A combination of those traits (because social aptitude is important for developing any sort of relationship with REAL people).
Hardcore was great. But guess what? We're not 10 anymore. We're big peoplez now. We have wives (some of us with social skills, anyway). We have kids. We have JOBs. We don't live in our parent's basement. We pay bills, we attend social gatherings with neighbors and/or our kids school functions, etc etc.
And guess what? We're the MAJORITY. And if we want to be able to juggle our LIFE and still enjoy an MMO, it seems as though developers have heard our calls and have catered more to us then the basement dwelling, socially inept 30 year olds who haven't seen what their dong looks like in over 10 years due to the buildup of greesy fat rolls.
So, yeah, good luck on your "I'm Hardcore, I wish everyone was Hardcore" rant. It's falling on deaf ears and has been for almost half a decade now.
I remember back in BC, a lot of guilds took over a week to just down Moroes when they first started raiding, my guild came along and we killed him on the first night, we became instant server celebrities and it really encouraged us to progress through the raids. Nowadays that mentality is gone, all the bosses die on pretty much first contact and everybody is at the same level. It's gotten to a rediculous level of ease, something so impressive as actually killing Arthas in wrath was attained by every single player I saw. I know scores of players who have left the game, many of us moved to EVE Online to play in a world where you earned what you worked for to try and achieve that sense of accomplishment we once felt while raiding BC but seems all nigh unattainable in the World of Warcraft as it exists today.
Sounds a whole lot like an "I'm a better gamer than everyone else, so if it's not just me and a select few beating bosses, then it's too easy" post
You know what ... so be it. Im tired of this silly argument. I personally don't see it that way, but if that is the way you see it, then so be it. The crap we get for raid content these days is TOO EASY. If it is hard for you then so be it. It is too easy for me to the point that these games are about as inspiring as watching paint dry.
Id much rather be in a position where I never see some super hard, epic, heroic boss than what we have now where everything has been killed 2 weeks after it is released. It's nauseating already how easy these games have become.
[Mod Edit]
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
..........
He's implying that the mmo genre is dead, but that the massively multiplayer arcade game (or some other not-so-clever concoction of words) genre is alive and thriving.
Exactly back in the good old days I could log on ask for ooc champ check and was set. Nowadays you login find a group:
- TS?
- IDs?
- gogo!
thats not my idea of socializing with other people. I don't want to play in a seperated world doing some jump n run style known as instances. I want a camp and stick their with a group till level up, not worrying about voicetools, ids or other crap such as badges for loot.
Well, then you are pretty much out of luck. I remember that type of thing in EQ, and some in AC1, but even those have changed with the times. Its not seven years ago, and the gaming population has changed, as have the games that provide services to them. You could try some of the niche games, but the more main stream are focused on what motivates the majority of todays audience. I can't say I'm really all that fond of some of the changes, but thats simply the nature of these things.
I remember back in BC, a lot of guilds took over a week to just down Moroes when they first started raiding, my guild came along and we killed him on the first night, we became instant server celebrities and it really encouraged us to progress through the raids. Nowadays that mentality is gone, all the bosses die on pretty much first contact and everybody is at the same level. It's gotten to a rediculous level of ease, something so impressive as actually killing Arthas in wrath was attained by every single player I saw. I know scores of players who have left the game, many of us moved to EVE Online to play in a world where you earned what you worked for to try and achieve that sense of accomplishment we once felt while raiding BC but seems all nigh unattainable in the World of Warcraft as it exists today.
Sounds a whole lot like an "I'm a better gamer than everyone else, so if it's not just me and a select few beating bosses, then it's too easy" post
You know what ... so be it. Im tired of this silly argument. I personally don't see it that way, but if that is the way you see it, then so be it. The crap we get for raid content these days is TOO EASY. If it is hard for you then so be it. It is too easy for me to the point that these games are about as inspiring as watching paint dry.
Id much rather be in a position where I never see some super hard, epic, heroic boss than what we have now where everything has been killed 2 weeks after it is released. It's nauseating already how easy these games have become.
I've fought the urge to admit that I might be an elitist, but if these bosses are still what you and everyone else would consider hard .. then so be it. Call me an elitist ... you just aren't very good at these games.
So? This is a game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or my lifes ambition. I've never made any pretense of being a professional gamer, nor would I wish to be if I could. There are way too many trade offs involved. Some people are just better at some things than others. But if you are looking for a "challenge" in gaming, perhaps you are looking in the wrong place? You might find a game like Demons Souls more to your liking. I've heard its a serious PITA in terms of challenge.
So? This is a game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or my lifes ambition. I've never made any pretense of being a professional gamer, nor would I wish to be if I could. There are way too many trade offs involved. Some people are just better at some things than others. But if you are looking for a "challenge" in gaming, perhaps you are looking in the wrong place? You might find a game like Demons Souls more to your liking. I've heard its a serious PITA in terms of challenge.
I've never made any pretense of beign professional gamer myself. Games are hobby - true. It is also my hobby, like for most players out there. Very few make a living out of it.
Still most games nowadays are too easy.
Dark Souls is actually lot of fun. Not a PITA definately. Like any other game, I am playing it to have fun.
Still it is not a replacement for mmorpg's. Because it is single player game, with some multiplayer elements.
There can be challanging mmorpg's done. That's what some people are looking for. Specificaly challanging mmorpg.
So I don't understand that some players are dissatisfied that game(s) that once were challanging now are mind-numbingly easy. So easy that f.e. in open world you can literally read newspaper and still kill mobs/do quests at same time.
All this while not beign any peofessional gamer, or not someone who spend 10 h / day playing game in a basement.
Nowadays I have as much time for playing games as average person out there. I do have job, I do have studies at same time, Not to mention many smaller responsibilities.
Still mmorpg's became much too easy. I feel it while I propably I am propably getting "worse" at playing. Since I don't spend as much time as I was in past. Relfexes are also worse than they used to be ,etc
Personally I am speaking mostly about open world and some normal dungeons, as I don't have time anymore to raid.
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I find it ironic that the players that made WOW popular, the players of the game that defined casual gameplay and led to the destruction of hardcore mmorpgs, are actually complaining about what their WOW has devolved into.
Seriously, those old "hardcore" WOW players know now how we old mmorpg players felt about the changes their game forced on the market.
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
Did it? The market for MMO's is MUCH larger now, than it was seven years ago. A good part of that is the business and invester types wanting a piece of that sweet WoW pie, and attracted by the increased profits to be made. WoW has made MMO's much more main stream, and has thus helped to make many more games available. You may not like most of those, but thats simply the nature of such things.
Blizzard has made *billions* from WoW over the years. They would hardly have been able to do that, if they were not providing a service that millions and millions of gamers wanted. I seriously doubt that we would be seeing the number of present and future games that we are, if not for WoW's impact. For all of its faults (which are legion...) WoW remains a good game up for level cap.
Lets keep in mind that this IS a game, and thus all about entertainment. If you don't like it, find some other game thats more to your liking, or perhaps another hobby.
I don't think I was saying it was a bad thing. Just that it was ironic. Back when WOW came out, those of us that played EQ, DAOC, AC, SWG and UO were all upset that WOW was destroying our favorite games, leaching our playerbase away and setting casual standards low. In the end though, look where this article takes us, it brings us full circle to the point when the original WOW "hardcore" are complaining about how the the genre has evolved. A genre they literally made successful with their subscriptions to WoW, and brought about the changes we see today. It says a lot to me.
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
This. When discussing the dumbing down of WOW , most of the focus is on endgame. People seem to forget that the leveling aspect in vanilla wasnt as fast and easy as it is today either. I dont know that I would call it hard, but it was a lot more of a challenge and people had a tendancy to group even doing the single player quests. There was a feeling of accomplishment in vanilla even for us non raiders. Running Wetlands from Dun Moroh to Menethil Harbor so I could take the boat to Darkshore and see where the elves lived. Doing Black Fathoms Deep for the first time. And boy did everyone hate Thermalplug in Gnomer There was something magical about the game at that time. I remember killing and skinning anything that moved in STV to sell leather to get the gold to buy my first mount. Now its a solo player game, mounts are all but given to you and dungeons, well you guys that enjoy raiding know how easy they have become.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
There was nothing satisfying about getting owned by Nefarian NOT because you didn't learn your choreographed 'dance' and doing it perfectly, BUT to lose night after night after night because of gear deprivation. Amazing though, we get about 2/3 of the raid decently geared in T2s and, vwahla, down goes Neff...
Of course, the guy I replyed was talking about hard bosses, not the journey...
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
There was nothing satisfying about getting owned by Nefarian NOT because you didn't learn your choreographed 'dance' and doing it perfectly, BUT to lose night after night after night because of gear deprivation. Amazing though, we get about 2/3 of the raid decently geared in T2s and, vwahla, down goes Neff...
Of course, the guy I replyed was talking about hard bosses, not the journey...
well there wasnt a dance for that fight, but that asside :P getting owned by nefarion over weeks was exactly why the final kill was memorable, it wasnt nerfed, blizz just let people gradually get accustomed to the fight - and all the more rewarding for it. And ofc you geared up, but it wasnt a wham bam thank you mam gear up, it took time, in fact gear levels probably rose in line with skill/experience levels, that balance of reward v effort is long gone.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
There was nothing satisfying about getting owned by Nefarian NOT because you didn't learn your choreographed 'dance' and doing it perfectly, BUT to lose night after night after night because of gear deprivation. Amazing though, we get about 2/3 of the raid decently geared in T2s and, vwahla, down goes Neff...
Of course, the guy I replyed was talking about hard bosses, not the journey...
well there wasnt a dance for that fight, but that asside :P getting owned by nefarion over weeks was exactly why the final kill was memorable, it wasnt nerfed, blizz just let people gradually get accustomed to the fight - and all the more rewarding for it. And ofc you geared up, but it wasnt a wham bam thank you mam gear up, it took time, in fact gear levels probably rose in line with skill/experience levels, that balance of reward v effort is long gone.
Any fight based on the practice of LOS positioning for debuffs, healing-stopping, and target-to-add switching before healers get owned was a 'choreographed dance,' but of course, it is an opinion.
To each it's own though. I raided because I enjoyed the crew, but the fights were retarded. We knew the fight via our second week in there, and there was absolutely zero change we made in strategy from that time until we downed him. The big different was the change in shinies. Call me weird, but that bothered me knowing that this was going to be the pattern for every final boss. Wipe, rest, wipe, rest, wipe, reset, wipe, reset...oh snap! The tank can survive that blow now? Take a healer off of him...
I guess I'm just getting old, but if a new game came out and had us to repeat that process to get the 'high,' I'd have to pass.
Hard core riding just is not an option as much as it once was. why ? because the gamers grew up. It has been my experince that most of the old school hardcore raiders at the time they did this hardcore raiding were mostly teens at the time and as they grew up and they actually had responseablitys there raid time became less and less.
I don't mean just wow players, most of the hard core raiders came from other games that they did there hard core raiding in and when it got boring they went to a new game until they arrived at wow.
Most people I meet in games these days are 20-40 years old which means they no longer have the time to sit there for hours on end just to get a group together and then spend a ton more hours doing the raid.
Just the wave of the future gamers grow up and these days alot of them still want to game. I am 41 and have been activly mmoing since 2000. I have no intentions of quitting anytime soon although when it comes to a choce between my daughter needs dinner or my wife needs help on what ever or I have a raid going the wife and daughter will ALWAYS win.
Comments
GC's direction = a hard-on for vanilla WoW with Cataclysm bringing about a removal of factionless hub cities, "new" zones all interconnected within the old world, and a return to "difficult" raid content and time consuming dungeon design?
I am the very model of a modern WoW Player,
I’ve nothing but contempt for the humble hardcore
I’m anti- drink, I’m anti-smoke, and I’m chastely ecological,
I quote from Hansard and I’m never logical
I’ve learned to speak at conferences, colloquia and seminars
I’ve even sent impassioned pleas to Blizzard's commissars
I never miss a photo op because it’s free publicity
I smile, shake hands, kiss babies and praise everyone’s ethnicity.
[Chorus:]
He is the very model of the modern WoW Player
He’s nothing but contempt for the humble hardcore
There is no universal law, that I must live a life of ease
Nor is there proof the world is fair, nor that I should do as you would please
I know the code of Casuals Law and which instances are optional
I bolster up my Valor Points with fabrications risible
Of moats, and porn, and PVP invisible
Those claims are valid; the Auction House’s a revelation
It says we can, and there’s no taxation
[Chorus:]
The claims are valid, the Auction House a revelation
It says he can and there’s no taxation
You get nowt from Dailys if you can’t show your claim to it
But we never fear de-selection by our faction
We wrote the rules, that’s why they’re lax
And we rely on you to pay the tax
That’s why I think I am invincible
The laws of this great land of ours were written with a lot of thought
So when I violate them, it’s important that I not get caught.
[Chorus:]
The laws of this great land of ours were written with a lot of thought
So when he violates them, it’s important that he not get caught.
My financial pursuits have caused a few to say I’m cynical
I can say I’m not and not be one ounce hypocritical
When wreathes are laid, I cough and clear my phlegm
I’m confident that someone else will pay for them
I serve on 10 factions, none of which do anything
I formulate agendas and debate them with the rest of them
But don’t ask me to implement, I leave that to the rest of them
[Chorus:]
Yes, the casuals will save this troughing riparian,
He is the very model of a modern WoW Player
I’ll guard the health of my Heroics by self-interest most astute:
I realise that you developers find my avarice quite vital
I’ll give back your money if you can prove your title
And spin the tale with arguments convolute
Until my lofty rhetoric and arguments meticulous
Inspire shouts of laughter and the hearty cry, ‘Ridiculous!’
[Chorus:]
Until his lofty rhetoric and arguments meticulous
Inspire shouts of laughter and the hearty cry, ‘Ridiculous!’
I love to say at any chance that everything is relative
And prove it with statistics showing nothing is correlative
About this act I haven’t even moments of remorsefulness
I have the utmost confidence in the casual players resourcefulness
So though we have run quite amok, we readily will go away
If for my worthless time, an extra £60,000 I will pay.
In short, with economy shrunken and democracy gone,
For all my years of graft, my C.V. is just one line long
He was an Modern WoW Player and now he has gone
[Chorus:]
Oh yes, he has gone, but there’s more of the same on the way,
There’s more of the same on the way.
The problem is as all of these things become more accessible .. even if there were hard modes that were as challenging as they used to be and had vastly superior loot, we have to weed through an increasing number of bad players who think they should be able to do everything in the the game just because they logged in that day. As opposed to the specialized raid environments of the past where a group of people got together a dedicated themselves to conquering unique and difficult encounters.
Also the addition of server transfers are a huge reason that wow and other games have reached an almost unrecoverable state of suck. You couldn't guild hop for very long back in the day. There was a community of players and you had to at least in some degree respect that, and them. Now you can do whatever the hell you want and just transfer when everyone hates you. Or roll a new character even because now that it is too easy to level like it is in most games if you get a bad name you just need a couple of weeks to create a new character .. instead of a couple of months.
Accessibility kills what made an MMO an MMO .. and it is not about elitists being able to feel elite. It is about community and a cooperative experience which is deader than Hoffa.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Did it? The market for MMO's is MUCH larger now, than it was seven years ago. A good part of that is the business and invester types wanting a piece of that sweet WoW pie, and attracted by the increased profits to be made. WoW has made MMO's much more main stream, and has thus helped to make many more games available. You may not like most of those, but thats simply the nature of such things.
Blizzard has made *billions* from WoW over the years. They would hardly have been able to do that, if they were not providing a service that millions and millions of gamers wanted. I seriously doubt that we would be seeing the number of present and future games that we are, if not for WoW's impact. For all of its faults (which are legion...) WoW remains a good game up for level cap.
Lets keep in mind that this IS a game, and thus all about entertainment. If you don't like it, find some other game thats more to your liking, or perhaps another hobby.
Oh the irony it serves them right, their game destroyed our genre.
Did it? The market for MMO's is MUCH larger now, than it was seven years ago. A good part of that is the business and invester types wanting a piece of that sweet WoW pie, and attracted by the increased profits to be made. WoW has made MMO's much more main stream, and has thus helped to make many more games available. You may not like most of those, but thats simply the nature of such things.
Blizzard has made *billions* from WoW over the years. They would hardly have been able to do that, if they were not providing a service that millions and millions of gamers wanted. I seriously doubt that we would be seeing the number of present and future games that we are, if not for WoW's impact. For all of its faults (which are legion...) WoW remains a good game up for level cap.
Lets keep in mind that this IS a game, and thus all about entertainment. If you don't like it, find some other game thats more to your liking, or perhaps another hobby.
He's implying that the mmo genre is dead, but that the massively multiplayer arcade game (or some other not-so-clever concoction of words) genre is alive and thriving.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Exactly back in the good old days I could log on ask for ooc champ check and was set. Nowadays you login find a group:
- TS?
- IDs?
- gogo!
thats not my idea of socializing with other people. I don't want to play in a seperated world doing some jump n run style known as instances. I want a camp and stick their with a group till level up, not worrying about voicetools, ids or other crap such as badges for loot.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
EPIC!
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Sounds a whole lot like an "I'm a better gamer than everyone else, so if it's not just me and a select few beating bosses, then it's too easy" post
This is by far my favorite post!
I don't think BadSpock can top this.
You know what ... so be it. Im tired of this silly argument. I personally don't see it that way, but if that is the way you see it, then so be it. The crap we get for raid content these days is TOO EASY. If it is hard for you then so be it. It is too easy for me to the point that these games are about as inspiring as watching paint dry.
Id much rather be in a position where I never see some super hard, epic, heroic boss than what we have now where everything has been killed 2 weeks after it is released. It's nauseating already how easy these games have become.
[Mod Edit]
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well, then you are pretty much out of luck. I remember that type of thing in EQ, and some in AC1, but even those have changed with the times. Its not seven years ago, and the gaming population has changed, as have the games that provide services to them. You could try some of the niche games, but the more main stream are focused on what motivates the majority of todays audience. I can't say I'm really all that fond of some of the changes, but thats simply the nature of these things.
So? This is a game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or my lifes ambition. I've never made any pretense of being a professional gamer, nor would I wish to be if I could. There are way too many trade offs involved. Some people are just better at some things than others. But if you are looking for a "challenge" in gaming, perhaps you are looking in the wrong place? You might find a game like Demons Souls more to your liking. I've heard its a serious PITA in terms of challenge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon%27s_Souls
Not much in raiding myself.
Just comment about difficulty.
I've never made any pretense of beign professional gamer myself. Games are hobby - true. It is also my hobby, like for most players out there. Very few make a living out of it.
Still most games nowadays are too easy.
Dark Souls is actually lot of fun. Not a PITA definately. Like any other game, I am playing it to have fun.
Still it is not a replacement for mmorpg's. Because it is single player game, with some multiplayer elements.
There can be challanging mmorpg's done. That's what some people are looking for. Specificaly challanging mmorpg.
So I don't understand that some players are dissatisfied that game(s) that once were challanging now are mind-numbingly easy. So easy that f.e. in open world you can literally read newspaper and still kill mobs/do quests at same time.
All this while not beign any peofessional gamer, or not someone who spend 10 h / day playing game in a basement.
Nowadays I have as much time for playing games as average person out there. I do have job, I do have studies at same time, Not to mention many smaller responsibilities.
Still mmorpg's became much too easy. I feel it while I propably I am propably getting "worse" at playing. Since I don't spend as much time as I was in past. Relfexes are also worse than they used to be ,etc
Personally I am speaking mostly about open world and some normal dungeons, as I don't have time anymore to raid.
You know what made vanilla WoW 'hard'? Gearing up 40 people fight battles that required X health and Y resist. This coupled with bosses only dropping 1-2 purples. There was nothing the individual players could do his or herself to change the fight. To mindlessly pound a raid dungeon week after week after week going as far as you can, slowly obtaining gear for your group. It's kind of funny how the hardcore group states that they want harder bosses when in fact in Vanilla WoW, you were gaining gear to *gasp* make the fight easier. Of course you are going to celebrate when you downed the 7th boss in Dungeon A after wiping on him for 4 weeks calling it a hard fight. But did you really think you beat because you spammed you 1-3 keys faster? Or was it the fact that you obtained 22-26 pieces of epic gear over that time, significantly increasing the groups survivability and abilities powers?
Of course 'hardcore' raiders will never understand this. When all things are equal gearwise and maxed out, anyone could have walked in the old Wow instances and completed them. Some more quickly than others, but they would get it done.
Time = hardcore to the elitism crowd, nothing more. Seems to me developers understood this with their current release. If a raid group can do the required rotations during a fight 10-15 times straight to beat a raid boss , then they've won the fight. No need to make them grind out for months at a time to obtain the gear so they can do the same thing 50 times straight. If that is what you guys consider hard fights, then the MMORPG genre has had an issues during it's who existance...
I don't think I was saying it was a bad thing. Just that it was ironic. Back when WOW came out, those of us that played EQ, DAOC, AC, SWG and UO were all upset that WOW was destroying our favorite games, leaching our playerbase away and setting casual standards low. In the end though, look where this article takes us, it brings us full circle to the point when the original WOW "hardcore" are complaining about how the the genre has evolved. A genre they literally made successful with their subscriptions to WoW, and brought about the changes we see today. It says a lot to me.
I have to groan when i read this type of comment over and over. good mmorgs are/were about the journey. The journey in vanilla was slow and steady incremental progress. Remember neffy? Everyone is soo skilled these days it seems and they can prove it by not needing weeks to learn to be perfectly coordinated for 4 minutes fights. In fact everyone is so skilled these days it only takes days for 25 people to become perfectly coordinated and performing at a cutting edge level. Journey? meh they say.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This. When discussing the dumbing down of WOW , most of the focus is on endgame. People seem to forget that the leveling aspect in vanilla wasnt as fast and easy as it is today either. I dont know that I would call it hard, but it was a lot more of a challenge and people had a tendancy to group even doing the single player quests. There was a feeling of accomplishment in vanilla even for us non raiders. Running Wetlands from Dun Moroh to Menethil Harbor so I could take the boat to Darkshore and see where the elves lived. Doing Black Fathoms Deep for the first time. And boy did everyone hate Thermalplug in Gnomer
There was something magical about the game at that time. I remember killing and skinning anything that moved in STV to sell leather to get the gold to buy my first mount. Now its a solo player game, mounts are all but given to you and dungeons, well you guys that enjoy raiding know how easy they have become.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
There was nothing satisfying about getting owned by Nefarian NOT because you didn't learn your choreographed 'dance' and doing it perfectly, BUT to lose night after night after night because of gear deprivation. Amazing though, we get about 2/3 of the raid decently geared in T2s and, vwahla, down goes Neff...
Of course, the guy I replyed was talking about hard bosses, not the journey...
well there wasnt a dance for that fight, but that asside :P getting owned by nefarion over weeks was exactly why the final kill was memorable, it wasnt nerfed, blizz just let people gradually get accustomed to the fight - and all the more rewarding for it. And ofc you geared up, but it wasnt a wham bam thank you mam gear up, it took time, in fact gear levels probably rose in line with skill/experience levels, that balance of reward v effort is long gone.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Any fight based on the practice of LOS positioning for debuffs, healing-stopping, and target-to-add switching before healers get owned was a 'choreographed dance,' but of course, it is an opinion.
To each it's own though. I raided because I enjoyed the crew, but the fights were retarded. We knew the fight via our second week in there, and there was absolutely zero change we made in strategy from that time until we downed him. The big different was the change in shinies. Call me weird, but that bothered me knowing that this was going to be the pattern for every final boss. Wipe, rest, wipe, rest, wipe, reset, wipe, reset...oh snap! The tank can survive that blow now? Take a healer off of him...
I guess I'm just getting old, but if a new game came out and had us to repeat that process to get the 'high,' I'd have to pass.
Hard core riding just is not an option as much as it once was. why ? because the gamers grew up. It has been my experince that most of the old school hardcore raiders at the time they did this hardcore raiding were mostly teens at the time and as they grew up and they actually had responseablitys there raid time became less and less.
I don't mean just wow players, most of the hard core raiders came from other games that they did there hard core raiding in and when it got boring they went to a new game until they arrived at wow.
Most people I meet in games these days are 20-40 years old which means they no longer have the time to sit there for hours on end just to get a group together and then spend a ton more hours doing the raid.
Just the wave of the future gamers grow up and these days alot of them still want to game. I am 41 and have been activly mmoing since 2000. I have no intentions of quitting anytime soon although when it comes to a choce between my daughter needs dinner or my wife needs help on what ever or I have a raid going the wife and daughter will ALWAYS win.