The reason games are going f2p is due to stupidity and arrogance from the companys/devs. People would gladly pay 15 bucks a month for a game that was worth 15 bucks a month. what i seen now a days is some idiot dev who comes out and pitches this big spiel about thier game and and thier idiotic vision of the game and then they ask for feedback and dont listen to the feedback and then thier game dies and thier forced to go to f2p or shut the doors.
franchises suffer from this the most they get greedy and rely on the name of the franchise and i have yet to see a franchise mmo really be succesful.
F2P has nothing to due with economy its just company arrogance/idiot devs/ stupidity. Ive seen it all swg matrix you name run into the ground lotro is going to be next. What can u do other then quit? Dcuo only got off thier butts when everyone left the game now theyre making more content now then most games 4 years in live lol
Heres how to make money i challenge any game company or dev prove me wrong
Listen to the bleeping customers (biggest de (
No lifetime subs at launch
keep servers/hardware up to date
create content as much as you can while people are subscribed not after theyve left
Dont redisgn the wheel 24/7 or insane drastic changes then try to explain why after the fact
These are the main reasons f2p is becoming the norm.
I find this to be an odd but typical attitude toward the F2P model. While I generally despise the model, I seriously disagree with most of what you have said here.
Many games launch as F2P - they are not conversions. They are not attempts to save a floundering game. They realize that many people do not want to pay a monthly subscription. The MMO market has changed - increased numbers from both B2P PC/Mac/console gamers as well as the sheer number of people on the internet.
It is a predatory model that often presents the company with a greater profit than if they had attempted to go with a P2P model. Several games have made the jump to a hybrid system to increase profit and revenue stream.
The MMO market is crowded. Lol, one could joke that it is Massively crowded. With 5 games, even with a smaller market - you're going to get a larger chunk of that market. Increase the market, but take it to 50 games? Take it to 100 games? Take it to hundreds of games... you're competing for a smaller piece of that pie.
Games launch these days with numbers that destroy numbers back in the early days...but they are considered a failure these days.
They are businesses. In the end, they want a sustained profit. They're going to go with what model gives them the best chance for that given the current market.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
F2P...Throw that $65 in it when you start and you wont need to pay anymore for a while. In two months you would have to pay $30 towards your P2P, so in two months throw that in your F2P.
Spend $15 a month on your F2P and you'll have it made.
If you spend more than that on f2p games your mommy should take the cc away from you.
People that have played WOW for a year could have spent all of that money on a f2p and bought practicly everything they would ever need in a f2p and never have to pay again
It just people with elitist attitudes that complain. They think they are the greatest gamers and cant handle it when someone else has something they dont have.
Nonsense.
First of all, the idea that it's kids "running up mommy's credit card" is vacuous. There are plenty of adults, 18+, who spend copious amounts of money.
Your example of how much is spent is rather pointless. Of course you don't have to spend that much on F2P MMOs. That's a non-argument. F2P/Cash Shops are designed and function around the idea that people do spend, and in many cases, spend a lot.
You're also accounting only for one-time purchases. You're leaving out another very significant part of the eqation..
Consumables and temporary items.
Consumables, in any context, are items that will be used and have to be replaced.
XP pots? Consumables
Higher potency HP/MP charms or potions or trinkets? Consumables
Items required to talk in General or Global Chat (like what Perfect World has, or at least had when I was trying it)? Consumable.
Temporary inventory space? Consumable
And so on.. and so on... and so on...
Those are items that players will have to buy repeatedly over time as they're used up. And the developers do their best to encourage that behavior by making the leveling curve as slow and tedious as they can without xp potions, by making MP and HP as difficult to maintain as they can without buying HP/MP potions, to make inventory as limited as possible without buying temporary, or even permanent inventory space. To make travel as slow as possible without buying a temporary, or even permanent faster mount.
The one time items - clothing, items and such items with a higher cost are just part of it and, I dare say, are not the bread and butter.
The people who claim to spend the least and scoff at those who spend the most always seem to forget one thing... The ones not spending any money are not the developers' target market. If you are not spending anything in the cash shop, you are not putting any money in the developers' pockets and you are taking up space and bandwidth on their network. The only purpose you serve is to be someone else to help make the game look more populated.
The spenders are the ones they're targeting. These games are designed around one very key fact that has been proven over and over again over the past decade with RMT... Even with RMT via third-party companies being prohibited and a bannable offense (which it still is in most cases, mind you - including F2P MMOs), there are people who are perfectly willing to spend 10s, 100s even thousands of dollars - more than they would ever spend on a box fee and monthly sub - on leveling, characters, items, gold, etc... just to beat the leveling curve, get what they want faster or get ahead of others.
THOSE are these developers' target markets. The spenders. You could say "well, it's the individual's fault for spending that much money" and you would be right where personal accountability is concerned.
That doesn't make it any less F'd up that these developers are designing their games from the ground up to encourage and profit - substantially - from that kind of behavior.
I would much rather see a developer put their effort into fighting RMT than greedily embracing it... which is all Cash Shops boil down to in the end: Sanctioned RMT.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
Heh, think he meant a subtle insult there?
Afterall, the games in a casino have games where the odds favor the house taking your money. There is often even a little liquid relaxation to open one's pockets... shiny lights. Etc, etc, etc...
...yep, a very good comparison - F2P games are as EVIL as Casinos.
They might be fun to walk through, look around, etc... just don't sit down at any of the tables or machines to play.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
Heh, think he meant a subtle insult there?
Afterall, the games in a casino have games where the odds favor the house taking your money. There is often even a little liquid relaxation to open one's pockets... shiny lights. Etc, etc, etc...
...yep, a very good comparison - F2P games are as EVIL as Casinos.
They might be fun to walk through, look around, etc... just don't sit down at any of the tables or machines to play.
Indeed!
The "liquid relaxation" in a F2P sense would be fast levels at the beginning, lots of gifts being thrown at you for the first several levels, freebies galore.
Just enough to give you a taste of what it's like to play with the benefit of those things, so that when the freebies stop coming and the leveling curve slows down and the game becomes slower and more tedious... you'll be much more willing to open the wallet, pull out the CC and resupply yourself with all those nitfy items they've so conveniently made available in the Cash Shop for you.
I swear it's like seeing a huge, unavoidable mud puddle in the middle of a sidewalk, with a guy standing right there with a long board - which he just happens to be carrying with him. He's asking people for $1 to walk across the board so they don't get their shoes/clothes dirty.
Oh sure you could walk around the block to avoid it, but it would be so much easier to just give the guy a buck and walk across it.
You're kind of in a hurry. But that's not his problem... He's just offering a service.
And after all, it's only a dollar.
So, you pull a $1 bill out of your wallet, telling yourself that it's a donation for the man's kindness in standing there helping people out . 'course, you don't realize he put the mud puddle there in the first place and replenishes it as necessary with a hose and pile of dirt he has hidden just around a corner and out of sight.
Funny enough, when you get to the other side, you see another guy standing there, also holding a long board, also asking for $1...
F2P is the ultimate sham job.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
looks to me the author has played a hand ful of pay to wins and ASSUMES it's all like that. I've played a shit ton of f2p and found hardly any pay to win ones. shit allods gave up charging for charms. eden eternal mainly sells comestic and DDO and LOTRO are doing better ten every.
@kyleran and the author and everyone else - stop with this stigma bullshit. If everyone goes f2p then it's not gunna be pay 2 win, polish will come back into effect and so will content. if anything polish and content would be pushed hard because of the fact that you can jump in a play. Kyleran for the fact that u pay the sub and SC doesn't make sense to me. just buy what u need when u need it. If you aren't a lunatic then u CAN and WILL pay less then a sub.
for the subject of f2p being a drug and it's not really free. I'm tired of this excuse. If i can log in and play that's free to play. I've played tons of free to plays, never paid a dime and got to end games with no problems. Otherwise u have to pay for a month so you can play an MMO for maybe about a week before u get tired if it's a bad MMO. That's 15 bucks a month for a week or so of a game. For the fact that i have to pay for an MMO in general is absolute crap. I don't have to pay monthly for my xbox games. even if their online that one time payment lets me play tons of game thru xbox live.
i've never met more stubborn, ignorant people like i have at MMORPG sites over this f2p shit. get over it already you don't like don't play them anymore. like I said if every developer goes f2p then all your points are mute cause then it's right where we are now. polish and cotent.
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
True that. But business is business <shrug>. If they can make a good living by providing a service that others are willing to pay for, then more power to them. I tend to stay away from those types of games, because in all but rare cases, if the focus is on making money, rather than making the game fun (and making money because of that), the games tend to be not so much fun, as a second job.
more likely you can't track not because you spending habits, you guys forget..
You're overthinking this WAY too much. Here, lemme help:
Someone's wallet before they paid their rent, car note, food bill, child support, clothes, etc:
They're only supposed to spend THIS much on gaming after they take out for their bills:
Players see this:
..and moronically spend THIS much:
then..
Then they're all like:
Not the game's fault someone is a moron and doesn't budget.
Question... is the game designed to make this more likely? Has it been designed in a way to take advantage of this situation?
Think of a con artist... they con people. The con artist gets arrested... is what you provided a probable defense for said con artist?
They are con games. They are scams.
Some people will not be conned. Some people will not be scammed.
Does that change that it is a con or a scam?
Based on what you said there at the end - odds are you'd never be on a jury in any criminal case involving any sort of scam.
It's not Madoff's fault that all those people were morons...am I right? /sigh
The failure in your analogy about Madoff is that he lied to people to get them to give him money. In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you. You can see everything that is in the cash shop right up front so you know exactly what you're getting into.
A better analogy is: you walk into Best Buy (it's free to walk in there = F2P), you see a bunch of video/computer games you want, all priced resonably, you buy 100 of those games over the course of say, 6 months. Even at the low price of $10 per game, you just spent $1000 in 6 months. You realize how much you've spent and are now angry at Best Buy for luring you in and making it so tempting to buy those games. You claim Best Buy is evil for selling games that are so good at such a reasonable price.
This is the true problem: People not taking responsibility for themselves and then claiming they got ripped off somehow because they weren't bright enough to budget for what they want. Or, on the other hand, not going into Best Buy (= not playing the game), and not having the temptation in the first place. Either way it comes down to YOU and YOUR choices.
As for the con artist idea put out by another poster: It takes two to tango. The con artist can't operate without the sucker allowing himself to be duped.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
Heh, think he meant a subtle insult there?
Afterall, the games in a casino have games where the odds favor the house taking your money. There is often even a little liquid relaxation to open one's pockets... shiny lights. Etc, etc, etc...
...yep, a very good comparison - F2P games are as EVIL as Casinos.
They might be fun to walk through, look around, etc... just don't sit down at any of the tables or machines to play.
Unless thats what you consider to be entertaining, and you don't mind spending money on it. I look at these games as a hobby. If I'm entertained, I have no objection what so ever to spending money to support my hobby. If I'm not entertained, I'll move on to a game that does keep my interest. I've been in WoW since late beta (with some vacatins off and on) for almost 7 years now. But the new MoP expansion with the "talent" 2.0 system looks like its going to be a game breaker.
The worst part is some games that are F2P still have items for purchase outside the full subscription. So now you pay the full sub plus that +2 tome to raise your attributes. Or...kick in for the instant rez to bail you out when you die. Spoils to those with the fat wallets.
Give me 100% pay to play with no options outside the original sub and a level playing field please.
"I can't afford a sparkle pony so no one should be able to have one." It's interesting how many people know what's good for everyone else.
F2P is good for the game company bottom line, which means that plenty of people who say they never spend money in-game are fooling themselves (even if they can't fool others).
Monthly 900$ ((12 months x 15$ fee/month) x 5 years)
Expansion 1 50$
Expansion 2 50$
Expansion 3 50$
Total 1100$
Your concerned about money, then keep an eye on the B2P pay style......cheapest in the long run, if you can find a title that suits you.
for example, with me it was GW1 (but the game suits me, maybe it's not for everybody)
Prophecies 54$
Factions 49$
Nightfall 54$
EyeNorth 44$
---------------
Total 201$
+ 61$ <--- extra wants, not needs, costumes and the like.....
Grand Total 262$ (over 6 years)
Neither Subscriptions or Cash Shops suit my personality.
I don't want a subscription, because I want the option to play or not to play at my own whim and at the speed I want to. I don't have 10+ hours a day to waste on video games so I shouldn't have to pay the same as someone who does.
I don't want cash shops because I want to be able to obtain everything ingame myself.
This is why I play Entropia Universe and why it has suited my own preferences so well.
My own cost history is much better than either option you have presented.
(in almost 4 years playing)
First 6 months completely free with a steady but challenging progression.
Then started to deposit when I realized the true potential of the game and had gained a trust in the systems.
<3000$ deposited
3300$ withdrawn legitimatly and legaly to my own bank acount.
= ive got out $300+ more than what I put in.
+ If i cashed out right now I would have another 2-4000$
I budget monthly, but if I dont want to put in I dont have to.
I am comfortable with the knowledge that what I do put in, can be played with, lost or invested. And that what is left over or won from investments I can always pull back out of the game without going through any shady 3rd party credit card theives.
There is no way im paying for a new subscription game that I might not like.
There is no way im starting a f2p game /w a cash shop requiring me to purchase stuff for progression.
I have not seen any game advertized that I believe can give me the challenge and sense of accompleshment of what I am playing, so there isn't any point in me looking.
IMO both popular models f2p/cash shop and subscription are flawed.
Basic economics. If F2P did not make MORE money that P2P, it would go away.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you.
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
[Mod Edit]
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Well if i can not buy a ferrari i sure as heck will buy a pixelsteed.
Actually as long as the base access to the game is free they can call it free without "lying"...
But yes i have a income and i have worked damm hard at it, so if i want to buy me a advantage i sure as heck will do it.
I don't mind if you want to buy your in game advantage. What I would have a problem with is you buying that advantage and then saying the devs are "evil" or "greedy" because they provided you with the opportunity to buy that advantage.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you.
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
[Mod Edit]
Lying - to create a false or misleading impression.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you.
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Once again...
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Lying...to create a false or misleading impression.
Where is the false or misleading impression? A game says it is Free to Play. You download it and play it for free. You notice a cash shop. You look into it and find XP boosts, weapons, armor, pots, and some cosmetic items and travel items. With those things, the game is a little easier to play, and/or your character looks "cooler". Without those things, the game is a little harder to play, and/or your character doesn't look quite as cool. Even if you go the harder, uncool route, you are still able to play the game for free. How does that make Free to Play a false or misleading impression?
It's my opinion that those who are so vehemently against F2P have no problem creating a false or misleading impression about the Free to Play concept. Hence the idea of Pay to Win, which is what many opponents of F2P love to call it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you.
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Once again...
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Lying...to create a false or misleading impression.
Where is the false or misleading impression? A game says it is Free to Play. You download it and play it for free. You notice a cash shop. You look into it and find XP boosts, weapons, armor, pots, and some cosmetic items and travel items. With those things, the game is a little easier to play, and/or your character looks "cooler". Without those things, the game is a little harder to play, and/or your character doesn't look quite as cool. Even if you go the harder, uncool route, you are still able to play the game for free. How does that make Free to Play a false or misleading impression?
It's my opinion that those who are so vehemently against F2P have no problem creating a false or misleading impression about the Free to Play concept. Hence the idea of Pay to Win, which is what many opponents of F2P love to call it.
You call the game Free to Play...gives the impression that it is Free to Play. You're not caling the game Free to Play with a Cash Shop. You're calling it Free to Play. Thus, you create the impression that the game is free to play.
The person gets into the game...they see that it is partially free to play. Again, the game was billed as Free to Play...not Partially Free to Play.
It is very much a case of lying and creating that false/misleading impression.
B2P... the impression is that you are buying the game and you can play it. There is nothing more to it. It is not Partially B2P. There is not the long hard path where you just B2P or the easier path where you B2P and hit up the cash shop. It is B2P. There may be additional content down the road...and you buy that so you can play that. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
P2P...the impression is that you have bought the game and you are paying the sub so you can play it and any updates. Generally speaking, there is nothing more to it. It is not Partially P2P. There is not the long hard path where you just P2P or the easier path where you P2P and hit up the cash shop. It is P2P. There may be additional content down the road...and that may be part of your subscription or like having to buy the game in the first place, you have to buy it. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
F2P... meh, seriously? I'm not sure how it is even a topic of discussion.
I get that big companies see it as producing a better revenue stream than B2P/P2P. I get that new companies see it as their only option to get their game out there.
Does not change what it is...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you.
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Once again...
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
Lying...to create a false or misleading impression.
Where is the false or misleading impression? A game says it is Free to Play. You download it and play it for free. You notice a cash shop. You look into it and find XP boosts, weapons, armor, pots, and some cosmetic items and travel items. With those things, the game is a little easier to play, and/or your character looks "cooler". Without those things, the game is a little harder to play, and/or your character doesn't look quite as cool. Even if you go the harder, uncool route, you are still able to play the game for free. How does that make Free to Play a false or misleading impression?
It's my opinion that those who are so vehemently against F2P have no problem creating a false or misleading impression about the Free to Play concept. Hence the idea of Pay to Win, which is what many opponents of F2P love to call it.
You call the game Free to Play...gives the impression that it is Free to Play. You're not caling the game Free to Play with a Cash Shop. You're calling it Free to Play. Thus, you create the impression that the game is free to play.
The person gets into the game...they see that it is partially free to play. Again, the game was billed as Free to Play...not Partially Free to Play.
It is very much a case of lying and creating that false/misleading impression.
B2P... the impression is that you are buying the game and you can play it. There is nothing more to it. It is not Partially B2P. There is not the long hard path where you just B2P or the easier path where you B2P and hit up the cash shop. It is B2P. There may be additional content down the road...and you buy that so you can play that. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
P2P...the impression is that you have bought the game and you are paying the sub so you can play it and any updates. Generally speaking, there is nothing more to it. It is not Partially P2P. There is not the long hard path where you just P2P or the easier path where you P2P and hit up the cash shop. It is P2P. There may be additional content down the road...and that may be part of your subscription or like having to buy the game in the first place, you have to buy it. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
F2P... meh, seriously? I'm not sure how it is even a topic of discussion.
I get that big companies see it as producing a better revenue stream than B2P/P2P. I get that new companies see it as their only option to get their game out there.
Does not change what it is...
It's not partially free to play, it is free to play. There is the way the game is intended to be played - the "long hard way". Then there is the quicker "I can't handle my character being less than max level" way in the cash shop. Also, most P2P and B2P games have that as well. You can go in there cash shops and buy XP boosts, pots, etc. that make the game a little easier to play. How is that any different?
So, no, they are not lying, as much as you'd like to make believe that they are.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Comments
I find this to be an odd but typical attitude toward the F2P model. While I generally despise the model, I seriously disagree with most of what you have said here.
Many games launch as F2P - they are not conversions. They are not attempts to save a floundering game. They realize that many people do not want to pay a monthly subscription. The MMO market has changed - increased numbers from both B2P PC/Mac/console gamers as well as the sheer number of people on the internet.
It is a predatory model that often presents the company with a greater profit than if they had attempted to go with a P2P model. Several games have made the jump to a hybrid system to increase profit and revenue stream.
The MMO market is crowded. Lol, one could joke that it is Massively crowded. With 5 games, even with a smaller market - you're going to get a larger chunk of that market. Increase the market, but take it to 50 games? Take it to 100 games? Take it to hundreds of games... you're competing for a smaller piece of that pie.
Games launch these days with numbers that destroy numbers back in the early days...but they are considered a failure these days.
They are businesses. In the end, they want a sustained profit. They're going to go with what model gives them the best chance for that given the current market.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Nonsense.
First of all, the idea that it's kids "running up mommy's credit card" is vacuous. There are plenty of adults, 18+, who spend copious amounts of money.
Your example of how much is spent is rather pointless. Of course you don't have to spend that much on F2P MMOs. That's a non-argument. F2P/Cash Shops are designed and function around the idea that people do spend, and in many cases, spend a lot.
You're also accounting only for one-time purchases. You're leaving out another very significant part of the eqation..
Consumables and temporary items.
Consumables, in any context, are items that will be used and have to be replaced.
XP pots? Consumables
Higher potency HP/MP charms or potions or trinkets? Consumables
Items required to talk in General or Global Chat (like what Perfect World has, or at least had when I was trying it)? Consumable.
Temporary inventory space? Consumable
And so on.. and so on... and so on...
Those are items that players will have to buy repeatedly over time as they're used up. And the developers do their best to encourage that behavior by making the leveling curve as slow and tedious as they can without xp potions, by making MP and HP as difficult to maintain as they can without buying HP/MP potions, to make inventory as limited as possible without buying temporary, or even permanent inventory space. To make travel as slow as possible without buying a temporary, or even permanent faster mount.
The one time items - clothing, items and such items with a higher cost are just part of it and, I dare say, are not the bread and butter.
The people who claim to spend the least and scoff at those who spend the most always seem to forget one thing... The ones not spending any money are not the developers' target market. If you are not spending anything in the cash shop, you are not putting any money in the developers' pockets and you are taking up space and bandwidth on their network. The only purpose you serve is to be someone else to help make the game look more populated.
The spenders are the ones they're targeting. These games are designed around one very key fact that has been proven over and over again over the past decade with RMT... Even with RMT via third-party companies being prohibited and a bannable offense (which it still is in most cases, mind you - including F2P MMOs), there are people who are perfectly willing to spend 10s, 100s even thousands of dollars - more than they would ever spend on a box fee and monthly sub - on leveling, characters, items, gold, etc... just to beat the leveling curve, get what they want faster or get ahead of others.
THOSE are these developers' target markets. The spenders. You could say "well, it's the individual's fault for spending that much money" and you would be right where personal accountability is concerned.
That doesn't make it any less F'd up that these developers are designing their games from the ground up to encourage and profit - substantially - from that kind of behavior.
I would much rather see a developer put their effort into fighting RMT than greedily embracing it... which is all Cash Shops boil down to in the end: Sanctioned RMT.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Most F2P games are only pay-to-win if you actually want to win. If you just want to log a few casual hours here and don't care about looking all uber running around your faction capital in your maxxed out armor on your super rare mount, there's nothing wrong with F2P at all.
F2P devs are no more evil than casino owners.
That's not exactly a very flattering comparison lol.
A very accurate one, however.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Heh, think he meant a subtle insult there?
Afterall, the games in a casino have games where the odds favor the house taking your money. There is often even a little liquid relaxation to open one's pockets... shiny lights. Etc, etc, etc...
...yep, a very good comparison - F2P games are as EVIL as Casinos.
They might be fun to walk through, look around, etc... just don't sit down at any of the tables or machines to play.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Indeed!
The "liquid relaxation" in a F2P sense would be fast levels at the beginning, lots of gifts being thrown at you for the first several levels, freebies galore.
Just enough to give you a taste of what it's like to play with the benefit of those things, so that when the freebies stop coming and the leveling curve slows down and the game becomes slower and more tedious... you'll be much more willing to open the wallet, pull out the CC and resupply yourself with all those nitfy items they've so conveniently made available in the Cash Shop for you.
I swear it's like seeing a huge, unavoidable mud puddle in the middle of a sidewalk, with a guy standing right there with a long board - which he just happens to be carrying with him. He's asking people for $1 to walk across the board so they don't get their shoes/clothes dirty.
Oh sure you could walk around the block to avoid it, but it would be so much easier to just give the guy a buck and walk across it.
You're kind of in a hurry. But that's not his problem... He's just offering a service.
And after all, it's only a dollar.
So, you pull a $1 bill out of your wallet, telling yourself that it's a donation for the man's kindness in standing there helping people out . 'course, you don't realize he put the mud puddle there in the first place and replenishes it as necessary with a hose and pile of dirt he has hidden just around a corner and out of sight.
Funny enough, when you get to the other side, you see another guy standing there, also holding a long board, also asking for $1...
F2P is the ultimate sham job.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
looks to me the author has played a hand ful of pay to wins and ASSUMES it's all like that. I've played a shit ton of f2p and found hardly any pay to win ones. shit allods gave up charging for charms. eden eternal mainly sells comestic and DDO and LOTRO are doing better ten every.
@kyleran and the author and everyone else - stop with this stigma bullshit. If everyone goes f2p then it's not gunna be pay 2 win, polish will come back into effect and so will content. if anything polish and content would be pushed hard because of the fact that you can jump in a play. Kyleran for the fact that u pay the sub and SC doesn't make sense to me. just buy what u need when u need it. If you aren't a lunatic then u CAN and WILL pay less then a sub.
for the subject of f2p being a drug and it's not really free. I'm tired of this excuse. If i can log in and play that's free to play. I've played tons of free to plays, never paid a dime and got to end games with no problems. Otherwise u have to pay for a month so you can play an MMO for maybe about a week before u get tired if it's a bad MMO. That's 15 bucks a month for a week or so of a game. For the fact that i have to pay for an MMO in general is absolute crap. I don't have to pay monthly for my xbox games. even if their online that one time payment lets me play tons of game thru xbox live.
i've never met more stubborn, ignorant people like i have at MMORPG sites over this f2p shit. get over it already you don't like don't play them anymore. like I said if every developer goes f2p then all your points are mute cause then it's right where we are now. polish and cotent.
True that. But business is business <shrug>. If they can make a good living by providing a service that others are willing to pay for, then more power to them. I tend to stay away from those types of games, because in all but rare cases, if the focus is on making money, rather than making the game fun (and making money because of that), the games tend to be not so much fun, as a second job.
The failure in your analogy about Madoff is that he lied to people to get them to give him money. In F2P with Cash Shop games, the devs aren't lying to you. You can see everything that is in the cash shop right up front so you know exactly what you're getting into.
A better analogy is: you walk into Best Buy (it's free to walk in there = F2P), you see a bunch of video/computer games you want, all priced resonably, you buy 100 of those games over the course of say, 6 months. Even at the low price of $10 per game, you just spent $1000 in 6 months. You realize how much you've spent and are now angry at Best Buy for luring you in and making it so tempting to buy those games. You claim Best Buy is evil for selling games that are so good at such a reasonable price.
This is the true problem: People not taking responsibility for themselves and then claiming they got ripped off somehow because they weren't bright enough to budget for what they want. Or, on the other hand, not going into Best Buy (= not playing the game), and not having the temptation in the first place. Either way it comes down to YOU and YOUR choices.
As for the con artist idea put out by another poster: It takes two to tango. The con artist can't operate without the sucker allowing himself to be duped.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Unless thats what you consider to be entertaining, and you don't mind spending money on it. I look at these games as a hobby. If I'm entertained, I have no objection what so ever to spending money to support my hobby. If I'm not entertained, I'll move on to a game that does keep my interest. I've been in WoW since late beta (with some vacatins off and on) for almost 7 years now. But the new MoP expansion with the "talent" 2.0 system looks like its going to be a game breaker.
The worst part is some games that are F2P still have items for purchase outside the full subscription. So now you pay the full sub plus that +2 tome to raise your attributes. Or...kick in for the instant rez to bail you out when you die. Spoils to those with the fat wallets.
Give me 100% pay to play with no options outside the original sub and a level playing field please.
"I can't afford a sparkle pony so no one should be able to have one." It's interesting how many people know what's good for everyone else.
F2P is good for the game company bottom line, which means that plenty of people who say they never spend money in-game are fooling themselves (even if they can't fool others).
No offense, but I kind of had to laugh at that.
In "Free to Play" with "Cash Shop"... the dev's aren't lying to you.
Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Well if i can not buy a ferrari i sure as heck will buy a pixelsteed.
Actually as long as the base access to the game is free they can call it free without "lying"...
But yes i have a income and i have worked damm hard at it, so if i want to buy me a advantage i sure as heck will do it.
This have been a good conversation
Neither Subscriptions or Cash Shops suit my personality.
I don't want a subscription, because I want the option to play or not to play at my own whim and at the speed I want to. I don't have 10+ hours a day to waste on video games so I shouldn't have to pay the same as someone who does.
I don't want cash shops because I want to be able to obtain everything ingame myself.
This is why I play Entropia Universe and why it has suited my own preferences so well.
My own cost history is much better than either option you have presented.
(in almost 4 years playing)
First 6 months completely free with a steady but challenging progression.
Then started to deposit when I realized the true potential of the game and had gained a trust in the systems.
<3000$ deposited
3300$ withdrawn legitimatly and legaly to my own bank acount.
= ive got out $300+ more than what I put in.
+ If i cashed out right now I would have another 2-4000$
I budget monthly, but if I dont want to put in I dont have to.
I am comfortable with the knowledge that what I do put in, can be played with, lost or invested. And that what is left over or won from investments I can always pull back out of the game without going through any shady 3rd party credit card theives.
There is no way im paying for a new subscription game that I might not like.
There is no way im starting a f2p game /w a cash shop requiring me to purchase stuff for progression.
I have not seen any game advertized that I believe can give me the challenge and sense of accompleshment of what I am playing, so there isn't any point in me looking.
IMO both popular models f2p/cash shop and subscription are flawed.
narfi
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
Basic economics. If F2P did not make MORE money that P2P, it would go away.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Apparently you don't understand the concept of Free to Play. It's free to PLAY the game. That doesn't mean that everything in the game must be free. So, if you can play the game for free, but there is a cash shop that has unnecessary items in it, then you don't have to pay to play it. Hence, Free to Play.
[Mod Edit]
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
I don't mind if you want to buy your in game advantage. What I would have a problem with is you buying that advantage and then saying the devs are "evil" or "greedy" because they provided you with the opportunity to buy that advantage.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Hey guys, lets avoid baiting
. Thanks!
Lying - to create a false or misleading impression.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Where is the false or misleading impression? A game says it is Free to Play. You download it and play it for free. You notice a cash shop. You look into it and find XP boosts, weapons, armor, pots, and some cosmetic items and travel items. With those things, the game is a little easier to play, and/or your character looks "cooler". Without those things, the game is a little harder to play, and/or your character doesn't look quite as cool. Even if you go the harder, uncool route, you are still able to play the game for free. How does that make Free to Play a false or misleading impression?
It's my opinion that those who are so vehemently against F2P have no problem creating a false or misleading impression about the Free to Play concept. Hence the idea of Pay to Win, which is what many opponents of F2P love to call it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Then can you please edit the orignal baiting post?
"Free...Cash Shop.
Once again...
Free...Cash Shop."
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
You call the game Free to Play...gives the impression that it is Free to Play. You're not caling the game Free to Play with a Cash Shop. You're calling it Free to Play. Thus, you create the impression that the game is free to play.
The person gets into the game...they see that it is partially free to play. Again, the game was billed as Free to Play...not Partially Free to Play.
It is very much a case of lying and creating that false/misleading impression.
B2P... the impression is that you are buying the game and you can play it. There is nothing more to it. It is not Partially B2P. There is not the long hard path where you just B2P or the easier path where you B2P and hit up the cash shop. It is B2P. There may be additional content down the road...and you buy that so you can play that. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
P2P...the impression is that you have bought the game and you are paying the sub so you can play it and any updates. Generally speaking, there is nothing more to it. It is not Partially P2P. There is not the long hard path where you just P2P or the easier path where you P2P and hit up the cash shop. It is P2P. There may be additional content down the road...and that may be part of your subscription or like having to buy the game in the first place, you have to buy it. They may sell complete fluff - but that does not affect your path - there is one path.
F2P... meh, seriously? I'm not sure how it is even a topic of discussion.
I get that big companies see it as producing a better revenue stream than B2P/P2P. I get that new companies see it as their only option to get their game out there.
Does not change what it is...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
That was not baiting. That was short emphasis.
[Mod Edit]
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It's not partially free to play, it is free to play. There is the way the game is intended to be played - the "long hard way". Then there is the quicker "I can't handle my character being less than max level" way in the cash shop. Also, most P2P and B2P games have that as well. You can go in there cash shops and buy XP boosts, pots, etc. that make the game a little easier to play. How is that any different?
So, no, they are not lying, as much as you'd like to make believe that they are.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!