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If a triple A MMO was to launch without PvE...
Neverdyne
Member Posts: 167
That is, no quests or any PvE that does not relate with RvR conflict, instead offering a complete, quality RvR experience with things like:
Meaningful and persistent open world PvP.
Three faction design, DAoC style, with an emphasis on your faction gaining territorial domiance and resources by conquest.
Player created buildings, siege engines, barricades, etc., along with NPC towns, castles, and faction main cities.
Destructible environments (think Battlefield 3), where even someone casting a fireball could potentically burn a door, or someone could slash a window open. Siege engines could be used to destroy buildings, creating an ever changing battlefield.
Meaningful crafting systems, and player based economy.
A modern combat system with things like dodging, blocking, etc.
No full loot. And a system put in place to prevent griefing.
Faction NPCs that fight alongside players like soldiers, generals, kings.
Conquering other faction's capitals after long campaigns similar to WAR's idea.
Open FFA arenas and non-instanced tournaments in colliseums.
Political systems with wich players can make their faction ally with other NPC sub-factions and cultures.
With complete quality voice-overs, and a rich lore.
And finally but most importantly, quality. An incredible graphics engine, lag free, relatively balanced classes, solid customizable UI, and all the features you would expect from an AAA million dollar MMO.
Do you think it would succeed in today's market?
Comments
No. Too many people like PVE content. Whether it be a little or a lot.
I self identify as a monkey.
It would be the most expensive MMO to fail.
Even if a game has awesome PvP it needs some PvE to balance it out.
PvE is like pop music, its what the scrubs like, -scrubs get it.
PvP is like Hard Rock, its what the hardcore like, -but do not get.
I guess it comes down to tab target games, they need little to no skill to play, you just lock on and magical fire balls turn in mid flight to seek out the target, you then get 1.5 sec to think about your next move ala rotation or priority oh wow, its like playing the piano but only using one button and only hitting one key note every 1.5 sec, -retarded yes, we will all look back in 20 years and go jesus H. Christ what the fuck where we doing back then, where as FPS with 20ms reaction time, well, thats another story.
tl;dr PvE = Casuals who like rotations and do not want to get hit, so they can stand still and feel epic doing there priority rotation and watch the damage meters, only to do it all again next week only a little tiny itchy bitcy faster, cus they gone one item better that was +2 in extra pew pew.
ld;dr tl;dr Casuals killed the game
You are talking about classes but will there be levels? I mean does this game have any sort of character progression?
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
OP...
You answered your own question when you said no PVE content.It wouldn't be a AAA title unless it was a COMPLETE game.This is exactly how i rate games i look for all the things that should in there and are left out,then i know a developer is putting out AA or AAA quality.
I think people seriously do not understand what "role playing game" means.It does not mean let's go raiding or RvR conflict and the furthest thing it is distant from is playing for loot.
Can you see for example the Black knight or brave sir Roibin or his faithfull assistant Patsy running around the globe looking for loot..lol.They are ROLE playing,and their quest is to seek out the Holy Grail.Here is the kicker,they won't be receiving any XP for that quest becuase that was ,still is and always be a retarded idea.You knw owhat happens on their quest?They fight Rabbits..KILLER rabbits and stop by and visit some scantily clad young fair maidens holed up in a castle.
That is Role playing and that is questing and that is AAA quality entertainment,not this rubbish we see in most games...now bring me a .....SHRUBBERY !
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'd play it...
and if it actually worked as you described, it would probably be succesful. Though you described an awful tall order to fill.
I'd play it.
The biggest fundamental problem is ensuring there is something that can be accomplished by one player, alone, with no enemy available. If it is possible to accomplish this without PvE, then it is a complete game in my book. However, if all gameplay requires multiple players on each side to accomplish, then you've made a game where it's possible that no one can have any fun or entertainment.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
God forbid people have different tastes. And please don't lump all games into your clearly narrow view of PvE and PvP. There is a lot of good PvE and a lot of bad PvP. You can be just as much as a 'scrub' in PvP and just as 'hardcore' in PvE.
Stop blaming casuals for everything.
PvP needs to be a part of an MMO, not the focus. If its the focus, it ends up losing to games that have significantly better combat systems that are PvP focused (ie FPS games).
MMO games are inheriently weak combat games, because of the restrictions a large playerbase puts on developers. You can't prop them up on their PvP combat and hope to succeed.
Personally my taste is with hardcore pvp ever since i started playing mmorpgs 7 years ago with lineage2. That kind of game would be my dream game one that i can actually stick with for more than 2 years like i did for lineage2. Every game that has PvE brings in the general population of casual gamers that tend to complain and be carebears. (generally speaking)
For the past years there hasnt been a hardcore pvp or even a 100% pvp game that was extremely well designed and has what the pvp community wants. The huge pvp community that exists is spread out in tons of f2p mmorpgs and games like eve, OR still playing the old pvp games that are ever so great.
If a gaming company could design a 100% pvp game and do it well, hype it up, advertise like a breast and bring that pvp community together into a game. It would be the biggest gank, trashtalk fest, fun filled competitive pvp mmorpg ever. It would be amazing. I've been waiting for a long time for an excellent pvp game that i can stick with and enjoy. It just simply doesnt exist atm.
Currently playing Rift, Crimcraft Bleedout, league of legends, and sc2
-Demised
The PvE content would exist, it just wouldn't be the directed story type of content. There would be a world and there would be non-combat activities, but mostly related to building an economy and crafting. I'm not sure if that would be enough though...you are very right that people like the whole faction based, directed story type of content.
** edit **
I think the quality of the game would be a bigger factor than whether it was based on PvP or not. If a game like Eve/DaoC (but fantasy based) launched with the polish that Eve/DaoC has today instead of how they originally launched, it would do very well.
The second biggest factor is the whole griefing thing - whether real or perceived. If your less aggressive players are relatively safe, they'll keep playing and supplying the stuff that your more aggressive players need for the war efforts.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Got to agree it is not that pve or pvp is good or badm even if it would work alone, but that one s just more popular. People like having the abbility to fallow a story, do things that feel like they are affecting the world, over trying to kill another player or such things. Some people like pvp style content, but it is not a huge group of people that is also vary vocal at all. casuals merely shift the concet from a idea of spending hours in a instance orr area to smaller amou nts of time to accomadate the hardeer time constrants they have. These are also the people that have the money to spend money on the game, such as those having jobs or other responcibiliies that do not allow for ass many hours of unimpeaded time online.
Also no matter how well made or designed a game is if it deos not have a large playerbase to warrant such a project it will nevver get off the floor in most companies. Right now the pve only and pvp/pve crowd are larger then the pvp only as well as the pve/pvp crowds combined. IF the crowd that is looking for a solely pvp game ever get the upper hand n players you might see it come about, but i doubt it will happen for awhile, as people hate playing with othher people they do not know, as well as do not like having their gaming experince left to the whims of another players choices. THigns like player vs player combat is vary much player driven as such f you prefer one style of another of the thigns offered you may not be able to play it when you wish. Yet in a pve game you would have your desired entertaiment at your beck and call, which is as many gamers and players want it. ALso even wiht a system to limit griefing you would never get rrid of it, even in games with such thigns it happens and contnues just at a much lower rate.
Yes, it could succeed.
Example - Planetside and the upcoming Planetside 2. It's a subject of debate as to whether the game really qualified as being an MMORPG, but that's a different subject entirely. What is not up for debate was whether the first game was a success or not, offering players solely pvp content. It unquestionably did succeed. Changes that the Devs made with Core Combat are a part of what killed the game, but the intial premise of the game and its release was rock solid.
Now, could another game like you describe succeed? I'd say, sure. If someone were to launch a GOOD version of Warhammer 40,000 with a mostly complete offering of races and classes and cross faction battle environments and objectives, sure. That would be a complete winner without any PvE attached. You know this in your heart to be true, Luke.
Likewise, I have the sneaking suspicion that a Battletech PvP MMO would succeed very easily with limited or even no PvE content, for many of the same reasons of the other examples.
Genuine hooks for these sorts of games to succeed would require diverse factions, a wide array of fighting formats (whether it's ground slogging troops, mobile armored vehicles, or mecha, etc.) as well as "that extra crazy something" in the from of psychic powers to cyberware or nanotechnology that allows for superhuman capability.
Players have proven in the past to eat that stuff up. All without PvE.
Isn't a MMO without PVE just a MMOFPS with a storyline?
PvP is the number one cause of MMO failure. MOST games release with PvE only and PvP is tacked on later. Eventually the PvP balancing game destroys the PvE game... Then you're left with a select few fanboy PvPers and the PvE group hates the game and leaves... Game dies.
WoW -> Released w/o any real PvP and people loved it... number one MMO (as far as number of players) ever made. They added Battlegrounds, people still loved it because they were somewhat complex and not about balance, but about objectives... Then they added Arenas, game went to shit. Every class watered down to be just like every other class and "balanced" for 1v1 and 2v2 combat situations.
WAR -> Released WITH PvP, game just epic failed right at the start. PvE was meh and people didn't stick around because of it.
Everquest 2 -> Released with no PvP if I recall, game wasn't bad and lots enjoyed it. Now they have battlegrounds and "balanced" pvp bullshit and game is going F2P which = fail (if you want to argue that point please show me a game that wasn't losing subs and popularity that went F2P)
I'm sure others can pull out many... MANY more examples. PvP kills MMORPG's. PvP douchebags who keep fighting for it need to GTFO and go play LoL, HON, Dota, CS, TF2... or any of the other PvP focussed games. Stop trying to force PvP into a game style where it simply won't fit! I have yet to see a smash hit MMORPG with a high focus on PvP.
You'd log on, have all classes available max level and entry green gear decked out be default, you'd have three talent trees that cost nothing to spec, you'd have a number of options for each build, there would be no : PvE, go and kill 10 rabbits ect just solid game mechanics and gameplay, the engine would run smooth with next gen gfx, wonderfully done and bug free.
End game would be points or achivements that would earn you a blue set and eventually a purple set, there would be one town for each faction where you could craft, you'd have slaves to gather raw material, log out and slave is still collectiong iron ore and dumping in your house until you get back.
With only instanced battlegrounds : of epic size scale/numbers: smaller ones, medium ones, 1v1, 2v2.... 250 vs 250 ect. siege warfare, youd build walls and turrests, games would take weeks to finish or years even, oh and NO FLYING-MOUNTS -save flying machines that are prone to fall out from the sky and might be able to drop a bomb on target should it ever reach over the battle field or explode on the way.
Just take WoW : Two cites : Org and SW two large beautiful cities to chat and chill out/craft/mess with skills/talents ect, slaves go out and gater raw materials for crafting, you see them run of into the distance and they come back in a few hours with lots of crap depending on how good you train you slave's or how many you own, while you are in the battle ground you'd get 1/2 less of regents due to Master being away in war, thus slave sleep under a tree allot, + billion epic warzones you teleport into.
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
No. Too many people like PVE content. Whether it be a little or a lot.
The PvE content would exist, it just wouldn't be the directed story type of content. There would be a world and there would be non-combat activities, but mostly related to building an economy and crafting. I'm not sure if that would be enough though...you are very right that people like the whole faction based, directed story type of content.
** edit **
I think the quality of the game would be a bigger factor than whether it was based on PvP or not. If a game like Eve/DaoC (but fantasy based) launched with the polish that Eve/DaoC has today instead of how they originally launched, it would do very well.
The second biggest factor is the whole griefing thing - whether real or perceived. If your less aggressive players are relatively safe, they'll keep playing and supplying the stuff that your more aggressive players need for the war efforts.
Originally posted by Elricmerren
The issue is the op said wiithout pve content, meaning you have no quests, or such in it with yoru progression being only thru pvp based actives and such over the norm of pve questing and instances.
From the OP:
That is, no quests or any PvE that does not relate with RvR conflict
There is PvE content, it just supports the RvR/PvP content. Some of the other stuff listed (like crafting) would be impossible without some PvE content. At the very minimum, gathering materials and then turning them into stuff.
The PvE content would be totally unscripted, unless it supports the PvP. It would possibly include PvP by default. For instance, a quest to gather X amount of iron, because your faction or your guild is short on iron for arrow heads. Doing so might require going to places with opposing faction players, but would not include NPCs you'd have to kill a certain number of, even if it included aggressive mobs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That sounds exactly like some console shooters I have...all of which have deathmatch...
It's sound good and all but all of the things you will have to implement to fix the inherent issues with a PVP only MMO will result in the usual PVE MMO with PVP elements we have today...
Pure PVP have too many issues that you simply cannot overcome in a large scale enviorment like an MMO.
First to make PVP viable either your world has too be very small or you have to force players to play at specific points of intrest. Both of wich will drasticaly reduce the end playable size of the world and limit the content, and if you want to avoid POI's at the end they will naturaly form around major hubs just like WoW's world PVP when the honor system was just intreduced was pretty much solely focused around SS-TM raids with the occasional planed Xroads raid before BG's came out.
Second thing is how are you going to deal with player deaths? if you dont make a game that you could die or kill some one else in seconds then the game just becomes a very passive and long brawl, and at the end most people dont wnat to play a game in which they either die every couple of min and have to respawn or the fights drag for such a long time they can have kids which will have kids train their grandchildren to be world class assassins and send them to kill the other player IRL before the manage to kill them in game.
Destructible Enviorments sounds cool and all but how are you going to make it work in a persistant world? at the end if you make every thing or atleast every meaningfull thing destructible it will mean that after some time every asset in the game that you worked hard to implement will be destroyed, and if destruction will be just a graphical asspect i.e battle damage than at the end after a period of time every thing will be showing battle damage so you might as well just have implemented it that way instead of spending time into making all the art assests and the engine for simulating this. Destruction can only work in instances where every thing resets or in cases in which it can be easily "repaired" in both cases its is again very counter productive to what you want from your "dream MMO".
Crafting and player driven economies are nice, but in a theme park MMO they are very hard to control, heck in any MMO that has any type of item loot systems imo crafting is somthing that is very hard to implement unless it's aimed at specific char development.
I agree that the combat systems of today's MMO's needs to evolve but if you build a completly "skill based" combat system or even a "skill dependant" one it will have big issues with the MMO crowd.
1) It is not what the usual and even the hard core MMO/RPG players are looking for
2) It will make the game very performance dependant which will mean that latency and frame rate will play just as much role in your overall perfromance as skill
3) It is somthing which is very hard from a player perspective to keep up during long playing sessions and MMO's are games which are inherently designed to be played for multiple hours at any given time. Wild Star from the few videos i've seen implemented the best hybrid system i've seen so far it is still a button based mmo but you have dodging and blocking skills which give you bonuses when used - you can still down oponents just by playing the usual WoW/EQ style or you can spice it up a bit and be more efficient at killing stuff which will result in xp bonuses and presumablity a lower downtime between fights.
Faction NPC's at the end will not only fight along side you but will be the meat in that MLT of yours at the end youll have to fill up the world with enough stuff to kill in order to allow players to play at any time regarldess of server population, faction balance etc` which will basicaly result in a PVE game with open PVP. The same way that any objective at the end will result in PVE content with PVP elements when the players will be willing to play the "metagame" i.e kill the king or capture the keep will have to work the same way weather there are other players involved or not so at the end you are still playing a PVE game where some other player can just jump in an try to kill you.
And just how exactly open FFA arenas could work? WoW "Tried' it but no one was intrested enough alltough i sure had loads of fun times in the Dire Maul arena when people still remebered where ferallas was... And can you even immagine the cluster fuck it will be and how much grief it will result in if just any one could jump in and start swinging? and if you limit that ability than whats the diffrence between that and an instancedd arena with an "observer" functionality?
Political system ok, how exactly are you going to make that work? faction griding? are those systems wil be player driven? or purly NPC? how are you going to account for player balance issues or the fact that no one would want to play that meta game for example?
At the end i think if you look deep enough the only solution for each underline problem of a pure PVP game is either e a MOBA game and FPS, or a PVE-MMO. You simply cannot create a consistant exprience if you do not put in all the PVE elements that you have today in order to give the game enough meat to enable long play sessions. The game needs to be forgivving and casual enough to enable those lengthty sessions. And just about every other thing to make that MMO viable to any one, even the most hardcore permadeath courpserun loving massochistic maniac will need a game that they can just log in and have a csual exprience once in a while. At the end the best thing any one can make is make a very good game which enough content and elements to satisfy players from both ends and both extremes of the PVP-PVE spectrum. And honestly the only real way to do it is to separte those things sufficiently enough to allow players to complelty seperate those experiences if they whish too while allowing enough content to slip trough the barrier to enable them to taste the other side in order to give them a test of that exprience with out forcing it down their throat.
Not a chance in Hell...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
No. Completely cutting out PvE would pretty much doom that game to failure or to life as a niche title.
That is not pve if it is not player vs enviroment content, what you discribe is gathering not pve. If a quest has you go to an area where you deal with non player groups then you have pve content in the form of non pvp based conflict, THis would not be a sole pvp game but a pvp game with pve tacked on to it to give more playing options when the population is low in a area. Also what most like in pve is the story and items as wel as fact of a quest in play that is at their own pace and choice. That is would be another issue for it that those pve/pvper whhich are the majority of the players that play mmos would find it worthless like pvper's feel abotu tacked on pvp.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Making every class identical with different names for abilities would be what would happen to their beloved pvp game. So many games ruined due to pvp "balancing".
I don't understand why or how the hardcore PvP crowd has found their way to MMO's, especially considering that they have such a large portion of the console market.
......it wouldn't be considered triple A.
My .02
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil