Isn't a MMO without PVE just a MMOFPS with a storyline?
PvP is the number one cause of MMO failure. MOST games release with PvE only and PvP is tacked on later. Eventually the PvP balancing game destroys the PvE game... Then you're left with a select few fanboy PvPers and the PvE group hates the game and leaves... Game dies.
WoW -> Released w/o any real PvP and people loved it... number one MMO (as far as number of players) ever made. They added Battlegrounds, people still loved it because they were somewhat complex and not about balance, but about objectives... Then they added Arenas, game went to shit. Every class watered down to be just like every other class and "balanced" for 1v1 and 2v2 combat situations.
WAR -> Released WITH PvP, game just epic failed right at the start. PvE was meh and people didn't stick around because of it.
Everquest 2 -> Released with no PvP if I recall, game wasn't bad and lots enjoyed it. Now they have battlegrounds and "balanced" pvp bullshit and game is going F2P which = fail (if you want to argue that point please show me a game that wasn't losing subs and popularity that went F2P)
I'm sure others can pull out many... MANY more examples. PvP kills MMORPG's. PvP douchebags who keep fighting for it need to GTFO and go play LoL, HON, Dota, CS, TF2... or any of the other PvP focussed games. Stop trying to force PvP into a game style where it simply won't fit! I have yet to see a smash hit MMORPG with a high focus on PvP.
So basically bad games do bad, and good games do good. Cause thats what you actually just described. WoW was even more successful w/ PvP... WAR was a bad game, and EQ2 went F2P cause it's an older game and was crushed by WoW. It has absolutely nothing to do with the inclusion of PvP. Pretty amazing how people twist examples to fill the space between there ears with things they want to believe.
There is only one "smash hit" in the whole damn industry. And it has E-sports PvP.
You can't be a AAA mmo without PVE, there's not enough market out there to justify doing a AAA mmo for without pve
Not true. There's plenty of games crafted that include no PVE and are more successful than any MMORPG.
Stepping outside of the current forumla is what's needed.
Care giving an example of this 'more successful than any MMO' which includes no PVE?
Sorry you did ask for it to get fps games that do have alot of players out therre to be put into this. woith cs as well as mw being brought up. Yet to be a true mmo triple A quality game with pvp being central still will see it ass most of the fps'ers out there are not looking for a mmo styled fps pvp game.
Really it comes to with combining the pvp/pve and pvp groups with a fps styles group of players would they get more subs then if they were to go after the large group of pve and pve/pvp players that they know are out there playing. Kinda like choising to fish for the fish you can see, over going deeper and fishing for what might be a huge fish or a boat, while having a family to feed. Which would you go for the sure deal or the possibility of somethign huge yet also posiibiilty nothing.
Care giving an example of this 'more successful than any MMO' which includes no PVE?
Sorry you did ask for it to get fps games that do have alot of players out therre to be put into this. woith cs as well as mw being brought up. Yet to be a true mmo triple A quality game with pvp being central still will see it ass most of the fps'ers out there are not looking for a mmo styled fps pvp game.
Really it comes to with combining the pvp/pve and pvp groups with a fps styles group of players would they get more subs then if they were to go after the large group of pve and pve/pvp players that they know are out there playing. Kinda like choising to fish for the fish you can see, over going deeper and fishing for what might be a huge fish or a boat, while having a family to feed. Which would you go for the sure deal or the possibility of somethign huge yet also posiibiilty nothing.
I read this post 3 times and I still don't get it.
I think the post is presenting Counter Strike and Modern Warfare as examples of a 'No PVE MMO'.
CS and MW isn't an MMO (at least by its current definition).
MW also has a single player campaign.
I think MOBA (DOTA clones like League of Legends) can be presented as another option though.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Care giving an example of this 'more successful than any MMO' which includes no PVE?
Sorry you did ask for it to get fps games that do have alot of players out therre to be put into this. woith cs as well as mw being brought up. Yet to be a true mmo triple A quality game with pvp being central still will see it ass most of the fps'ers out there are not looking for a mmo styled fps pvp game.
Really it comes to with combining the pvp/pve and pvp groups with a fps styles group of players would they get more subs then if they were to go after the large group of pve and pve/pvp players that they know are out there playing. Kinda like choising to fish for the fish you can see, over going deeper and fishing for what might be a huge fish or a boat, while having a family to feed. Which would you go for the sure deal or the possibility of somethign huge yet also posiibiilty nothing.
I read this post 3 times and I still don't get it.
I think the post is presenting Counter Strike and Modern Warfare as examples of a 'No PVE MMO'.
CS and MW isn't an MMO (at least by its current definition).
MW also has a single player campaign.
I think MOBA (DOTA clones like League of Legends) can be presented as another option though.
True yet people many play them for their pvp content with some needing to play the pve content to get to that part. So there are those tht do not play those pve parts at all. LoL wouold work as well yet that is not as much a fps which is where you might find more of the base for this style of game wih the vast majority of players of these fps games pllaying them for the pvp aspect over the pve aspect. That should also factor inn to this they created a pve/pvp game that brings in alot of players but it is the pvp players that stay on and keep play with the pvp part getting the most use as well.
I do not believe this can be achievable. The repeatable nature of a MMO will turn any content meaningless after enough repetitions.
"Meaningul PvP" is a hollow term anyway. It doesn't mean anything or it means something different for everyone. In the end all PvP is equally meaningless or meaningful.
While I can't speak for Neverdyne, generally speaking when people make this statement they are asking for PVP designed around the control of territory or resources and the denial of the same to their opponents.
It's the type of PVP I prefer to engage in, while others perfer to fight for personal glory, better gear, (or to loot other people's gear) or stats on a killboard in arena or battleground style combat. (which is still meaningful to those who enjoy it of course)
It is possible IMO to deliver totally meaningless PVP as well, unless the thrill of the gank is something a person enjoys.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I guess we will wait for planetside 2 and see if it can work.
If you dont play it just because of SOE, then you might aswell not play any game, because EA, activison, cryptic, trion, funcom...i could go on like this... are much larger germ bags and some of those are whay...more money hungry and turn out much larger piles of crap than SOE.
tl;dr PvE = Casuals who like rotations and do not want to get hit, so they can stand still and feel epic doing there priority rotation and watch the damage meters, only to do it all again next week only a little tiny itchy bitcy faster, cus they gone one item better that was +2 in extra pew pew.
ld;dr tl;dr Casuals killed the game
And PVP in MMOs is ruled, 99.99% of the times, by these two laws:
1) The biggest zerg wins
2) The guy who has been grinding longer for gear wins.
Like if PVP in MMOs had much to do with skill.
And it's actually PVPers who killed the genre. We used to live in virtual worlds. Now we live in excel sheets.
tl;dr PvE = Casuals who like rotations and do not want to get hit, so they can stand still and feel epic doing there priority rotation and watch the damage meters, only to do it all again next week only a little tiny itchy bitcy faster, cus they gone one item better that was +2 in extra pew pew.
ld;dr tl;dr Casuals killed the game
And PVP in MMOs is ruled, 99.99% of the times, by these two laws:
1) The biggest zerg wins
2) The guy who has been grinding longer for gear wins.
Like if PVP in MMOs had much to do with skill.
And it's actually PVPers who killed the genre. We used to live in virtual worlds. Now we live in excel sheets.
That is, no quests or any PvE that does not relate with RvR conflict, instead offering a complete, quality RvR experience with things like:
Meaningful and persistent open world PvP.
Three faction design, DAoC style, with an emphasis on your faction gaining territorial domiance and resources by conquest.
Player created buildings, siege engines, barricades, etc., along with NPC towns, castles, and faction main cities.
Destructible environments (think Battlefield 3), where even someone casting a fireball could potentically burn a door, or someone could slash a window open. Siege engines could be used to destroy buildings, creating an ever changing battlefield.
Meaningful crafting systems, and player based economy.
A modern combat system with things like dodging, blocking, etc.
No full loot. And a system put in place to prevent griefing.
Faction NPCs that fight alongside players like soldiers, generals, kings.
Conquering other faction's capitals after long campaigns similar to WAR's idea.
Open FFA arenas and non-instanced tournaments in colliseums.
Political systems with wich players can make their faction ally with other NPC sub-factions and cultures.
With complete quality voice-overs, and a rich lore.
And finally but most importantly, quality. An incredible graphics engine, lag free, relatively balanced classes, solid customizable UI, and all the features you would expect from an AAA million dollar MMO.
Do you think it would succeed in today's market?
No PvP is a niche market.
PvE is what people enjoy when they talk of MMORPG's. Proof is in the pudding. I still believe that the first developer to come along and create a AAA PvE sandbox world that is based on Exploration and skill based character classes will rule the genre.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Comments
So basically bad games do bad, and good games do good. Cause thats what you actually just described. WoW was even more successful w/ PvP... WAR was a bad game, and EQ2 went F2P cause it's an older game and was crushed by WoW. It has absolutely nothing to do with the inclusion of PvP. Pretty amazing how people twist examples to fill the space between there ears with things they want to believe.
There is only one "smash hit" in the whole damn industry. And it has E-sports PvP.
You can't be a AAA mmo without PVE, there's not enough market out there to justify doing a AAA mmo for without pve
Not true. There's plenty of games crafted that include no PVE and are more successful than any MMORPG.
Stepping outside of the current forumla is what's needed.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
PvP all the time ?
I dont oppose a nice PvP event once in a while, but all the time is simply too much.
Care giving an example of this 'more successful than any MMO' which includes no PVE?
Counterstrike Source
Sorry you did ask for it to get fps games that do have alot of players out therre to be put into this. woith cs as well as mw being brought up. Yet to be a true mmo triple A quality game with pvp being central still will see it ass most of the fps'ers out there are not looking for a mmo styled fps pvp game.
Really it comes to with combining the pvp/pve and pvp groups with a fps styles group of players would they get more subs then if they were to go after the large group of pve and pve/pvp players that they know are out there playing. Kinda like choising to fish for the fish you can see, over going deeper and fishing for what might be a huge fish or a boat, while having a family to feed. Which would you go for the sure deal or the possibility of somethign huge yet also posiibiilty nothing.
I read this post 3 times and I still don't get it.
I think the post is presenting Counter Strike and Modern Warfare as examples of a 'No PVE MMO'.
CS and MW isn't an MMO (at least by its current definition).
MW also has a single player campaign.
I think MOBA (DOTA clones like League of Legends) can be presented as another option though.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
True yet people many play them for their pvp content with some needing to play the pve content to get to that part. So there are those tht do not play those pve parts at all. LoL wouold work as well yet that is not as much a fps which is where you might find more of the base for this style of game wih the vast majority of players of these fps games pllaying them for the pvp aspect over the pve aspect. That should also factor inn to this they created a pve/pvp game that brings in alot of players but it is the pvp players that stay on and keep play with the pvp part getting the most use as well.
While I can't speak for Neverdyne, generally speaking when people make this statement they are asking for PVP designed around the control of territory or resources and the denial of the same to their opponents.
It's the type of PVP I prefer to engage in, while others perfer to fight for personal glory, better gear, (or to loot other people's gear) or stats on a killboard in arena or battleground style combat. (which is still meaningful to those who enjoy it of course)
It is possible IMO to deliver totally meaningless PVP as well, unless the thrill of the gank is something a person enjoys.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Coutner Strike as was said is a good one. Unreal tourny. Connect 4. Lawn darts. Literally thousands of games.
It can be brought to the MMO format successfully. Thinking otherwise is foolish.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I guess we will wait for planetside 2 and see if it can work.
If you dont play it just because of SOE, then you might aswell not play any game, because EA, activison, cryptic, trion, funcom...i could go on like this... are much larger germ bags and some of those are whay...more money hungry and turn out much larger piles of crap than SOE.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
And PVP in MMOs is ruled, 99.99% of the times, by these two laws:
1) The biggest zerg wins
2) The guy who has been grinding longer for gear wins.
Like if PVP in MMOs had much to do with skill.
And it's actually PVPers who killed the genre. We used to live in virtual worlds. Now we live in excel sheets.
what this guys says......spot on.
No PvP is a niche market.
PvE is what people enjoy when they talk of MMORPG's. Proof is in the pudding. I still believe that the first developer to come along and create a AAA PvE sandbox world that is based on Exploration and skill based character classes will rule the genre.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.