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Elikals beta reflections
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Yeah, I bet you all wanted to hear my impressions, didn't you, possums!
Anywho. Since now we have a NDA drop, I can say a bit open what I could not before. While I am not in beta myself, I had the chance to play beta on a friends computer 5 days altogether. 3 days half a year ago and 2 days recently.
I played Imperial Agent and Jedi Consular mostly, and tinkered a bit with Trooper.
Now one thing first: I was VERY much impressed with the game and loved it. But, that does not make me blind to some glaring issued I see with the game.
Now personally, I liked the combat of both characters. I know, it isn't something to write home about as huge revelation. It is a bit a shame they did not dare to make a bit more unconventional combat, like GW2 tries to, or even like AoC. Especially Lightsaber combat in this classic MMO combat style feels a bit too less actiony. When I think of games with LS combat I think of Jedi Academy. Still, I didn't really mind a lot, and to me, it felt good and ok.
What really enjoyed me the most was the story. Of course. I thought the moral choices and consequences are tough, something to really make you think a long time! At least they did to me. I wanted to play my Agent as strong Imperial loyalist, but I tell you my faith was heavily tested. I can't for the love of the Maker imagine how ANYONE would skip those dialogues! The dialogues were good, deep and interesting and nothing to forget. Though I must admit the Jedi story was a bit too forseeable and stereotype, at least the beginning of it. I was quite surprised to enjoy Trooper much more than I had expected. I had chosen Trooper and Agent, because I was sure I would NOT want to play them, and I was all certain to play Jedi. After my beta experience I was almost 180° converted, finding Jedi a bit too lame but Trooper and Agent very cool, especially story-wise but also in terms of combat. You really feel like a sneaky Agent or a heavy Trooper in combat. Well, as far as MMO combat allows. ^^
There are however three big flaws, I could not elaborate before the NDA drop, and I really dislike them.
(1) Cities and villages feel SO DEAD. Sorry, but this was just a real downer for me. NPCs are all standing like fixed to the ground, there was virtually no city life at all. I dunno, but I think everyone who currently plays Skyrim can imagine how you can make a place alife. Visit a Skyrim tavern, say in Whiterun and it's ever changing ongoings, and compare it to the sterile stagnant cantinas in SWTOR. Or Coruscant... shoot was that lame. A few NPCs made Coruscant feel so damn empty. Just compare it to how busy the Coruscant streets are in the movies. I just felt that was a HUGE letdown, how dead all cities feel. I really hope Bioware reworks those later on. Also in general the "animated world", or rather lack of it. Again, just take Skyrim. There are butterflies and bees, wolves hunting deer, guards pacing down and talking to you, NPCs reacting to you, and then see the world in SWTOR. Sure, it looks nice and fine, but I kinda lack the love for detail. Many mobs just stand there like glued, waiting for you to enter their aggro radius. The mobs were not doing anything, like patrol or do any "life" or what. They are just placed there immobile and waiting. All not very animated and alife.
(2) Linear world-tunnel. While sure the worlds open up, I again had this tunnel-feeling. I know from looking into my friend's high level char how big later worlds are. But early on, it is quite a lot of railroading, and I did not really feel like exploring a vast open planet up to level 20 or so. I had a bit an AION deja vu, being send from quest hub to quest hub. I would expect from a 2012 triple A MMO a bit more open world ongoings. Like to come to a place and discover whats going on. Again, take Skyrim, where I just can go anywhere, and the game adapts to ME, not I have to adapt to the games preset paths! I know this hasn't really been done in any MMO yet, with mobs having fixed levels, but in SWTOR's small early planets I never could shake the feeling of being confined. One thing I loved about SWG was, it was vast space on planets which was "useless". Just open world. SWTOR is more the EQ2-style model, where the entire world is full of mobs for quests. It just doesn't so much feel like worlds in this way, but thats more an issue with MMOs these days generally. I rather want my MMO worlds where not every part has a purpose for quests.
(3) While I was very well entertained... I never really had the feeling to be in a MMO. I mean, yes in beta there were maybe not to many people. I saw people running around. But all in all, I spent a LOT of time alone in my story quest. And since the focus of it was so much "my personal hero story", it was very difficult to even WANT to group. When I am THE super Agent of the Empire or THE chosen Jedi... how can I meaningfully group? I mean, the group exerience was ok, but I never saw people so much totally ignoring each other as in SWTOR, and heck, even LOTRO was bad in that account, and I think that is the price for "story", because LOTRO also was story/solo-heavy. It was more than playing a single player game with multiplayer elements. I know some may not feel that way, but at least I felt very isolated in SWTOR, and the many dialogues and instances didn't help either.
There are also some minor points, like the not so cool clothing/armor, which just looks a few tads too cartoony and could need some serious texture. Cloth does have a fabric, you know. Unless you wear a plastic bag. And in SWTOR clothing and armour just look like plastic. Even metal doesn't much look like metal, and the same issue I have with most textures. They look... plasticy. I'd REALLY wish they had gone for a BIT more rough/mature/realistic texture design. From a distance it looks good, but closer, those textures are just mostly artificial and sterile to me.
Now I am much on the fence. I greatly enjoyed the gameplay experience. But I can see flaws, and those will come more to my mind when I play longer, as is the nature of things. I still have a hard time to belief I am going to stay in SWTOR longer than, say, half a year. I sure will play 2-3 class stories through. But SWTOR is WAY too less a living, breathing world and way too much a set up theater stage with tons of plastic to "believe in".
EDIT: Oh, another thing I came to realize was this: I felt SWTOR playing was "exhausting" me, in the sense, that after 3+ hours I felt I had taken in SO MUCH story information, heard to many names, was witness of so many events, I needed a break. I think it may be difficult to play SWTOR for a longer time, in contrast to WOW/EQ2 or whatever, where I could easily play 8+ hours. The tons of info I get while playing just had sort of "filled my hard disc", so I can imagine after 3 hours heavy of story I guess many people will just need a break to stomach it all.
EDIT2: Funny sidenote, but visually I felt a lot like playing SWG2, which for me was a cool thing. 
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
i haven't played yet either, though I did get an invite to an upcoming beta. But we have some of the same fear/concerns. Particularly in regards to story. If a game is very heavy on story and I miss a few days, are my gaming friends going to outlevel me and then be in a different place in the story arc? This is what happened to me in LOTRO. I was either ahead of everyone else or behind everyone, just depended that week. That's the real disadvantage of having heavy story with chain quests.
As far as npc's just standing, rooted to one area. Yeah...I think when you play a game like Skyrim which is a single player game, you are going to see a lot of things that may not translate to mmo due to resource demands. But I've seen mmo's with insects and butterflies so it is possible to make a more alive world.
I'm fully expecting this to be a single player/co op KOTOR, but I hope I'm wrong. I hope I can really get into my character and roleplay like I used to in SWG. Some of my old SWG friends have contacted me. I'm excited for us to be together again, though I'm sure it probably wont be the same. But maybe...
Thanks for this write up.
I think it greatly illustrates what to expect from SWTOR.
I myself found out , i can not play theme park MMO anymore. I got RIFT free copy, i still have it lying around not activated.
And i think RIFT is a great theme park, made by company that really knows and invests all in quality.
SWTOR is same gameplay , i dont care for anymore.
And as for Bioware "story" ,
I started not to care for their writting anymore. Especially after playing games like Witcher , with far more mature and real themes.
Bioware started spinning their "recepy" way to often,for it not to become boring - and it starting to show.
I am glad I did not fall for this game.
Infact I am leaving mmorpgs forever , and will now play only virtual worlds.
Well...and GW2 , and D3 ...
My trooper
Chiss Agent:
And Jedi Miraluka:
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Kinda mirrors what I expect as well.
I think EA/BW was very up-front on what SWTOR is and what they were aiming for from the start.
Some people will like it (like myself), some won't.
Now the 4 week wait is the problem.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
All three of your points I totally agree with and more. The worlds are dead, stagnate, souless places. Even in WoW the cities are more alive. Even the world of Azeroth has more life going on than what we saw in this game. Sad. MOBs are the one thing that really just annoyed me the most. They just stand around and wait for you to run up and start the whack-the-mole game on them. ::sigh:: Then when they do engage you the combat was predictable and a sheer yawn fest for me. Playing a game of Space Invaders takes more challenge.
Oh yes! I recally well how frustrating that was in LOTRO. The issue is indeed, as you say, with story, you can't skip it, or you lose something. In games like EQ2 it wasn't much of an issue if you missed an area, because there wasn't much to know.
Also, I blame the WAY too fast levelling. Often in LOTRO when I was away a few days, ALL people I knew had way outlevelled me.
Heck, sorry to bring WOW... but even WOW had more city life! Just compare Stormwind with any SWTOR city. They really did not put enough into their city life.
That remains one of my biggest gripes after playing SWTOR, because you see that all the time. (As compared to lack of playable aliens, which I found not to care so much anymore while playing.)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Thanks for the write up, El.
I didn't play the beta myself but if I'm honest it looks like your three major concerns aren't so major at all and pretty typical for playing a mmorpg for the first few days, and before launch at that.
I share your dislike for guidedness in world design, I abhor it really, but for a starter world I don't care so much. There has to be a place where mmorpg-nooblets can get their bearing before kicking them out into the universe. You'll be past that in a matter of days to enjoy all the big and open planets right?
Cities feeling dead might have to do with beta server population numbers? Did you get to see the space station hub thingies they added a while ago? They added those to accumulate the players from what I've heared.
In regards to the game feeling solo: you also know that personal story will become less of a focus later on; going from 70% to 30%, to 10% of world content or at least that's what they've stated. And we got to read some reports from people having a blast doing heroics and "grouping more than I ever did while leveling in WOW" (Read that one in one of the beta impressions here, not sure which one it was).
My brand new bloggity blog.
The story had the opposite effect on me I found myself playing 8-10 hours straight over the week, with a break here and there to let my blood flow. I was just that engrossed in the game, not once did I feel that the worlds were to linear. I actually found caves and stuff on Drummond Kaas and those areas had nothing to do with my quests. I was just wondering around just to see were stuff lead to. See the problem is people are just following the quests from point A to point B without taking it upon themselves to explore. I do agree with you on the deadness of the cities and camps, hell even in WoW the npcs move around the cities and quest hubs. As far as armor goes I can't complain it could be worst, just be glad it doesn't look as bad as the armor in Rift. But I do feel that they could spruse it up some and bring back the color matching system, the whole clown mix match armor thing just isnt going to do it. I got tired of that in WoW
The starting plantes and levels serve nothing more than a tutorial for new players. Bioware just like other Themepark MMO companies do not make MMOS with assumpion that every players who is going to try their game is very familiar with MMOS. For many it is going to be their first MMORPG.
That is why Bioware tries to ease them into SWTOR at early levels. I have played so many themepark MMOS now that i do not even care for starting planets as i know what is their purpose. People should look at both sides of coins because not every new player is an experinced MMORPG player.
Thats weird, I felt the exact opposite. I get so burned out leveling in any other MMO because it's just straight grinding. I don't care about whats going on in the world, and it feels like time drags. With SWTOR, 3 hours felt like they flew by because I was actually getting interested in the storyline. It's like reading a good book you just can't put down.
I was waiting for your review Elikal.
Seems this is another kleenex-MMO. Great. Feeling really disappointed, as all my fears are confirmed.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
You shouldn't feel disappointed but happy. Think of all the time and attention you've wasted in the past year to a game that wasn't your type of game anyway and that wouldn't provide you the gaming fun you need.
Now that you know for certain that it isn't something for you, you don't have to waste a single minute or shred of attention to it anymore, you can simply forget about the game, ignore it and instead devote your time and attention to a game or games that do have the potential to be fun for you.
When you look at it pragmatically, this would have to be a great relief for you, having all your doubts removed now you can fully move on to other things.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You can't really judge how the community will take shape in beta so saying the worlds are dead is a bit silly, i do however agree with you on the mobs, they are way to static and not interesting at all to fight.
Love the myriad excuses people ahve made in this thread to the OP's astute and valid observations.
Pride is a hard-to-swallow pill, after all.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
What you call excuses is what i call difference of opinion. For example in my reply i wrote about starter planets being nothing more than just a tutorial hence the linear nature. Considering the rate at which you level is quite slow compared to recent MMOS, lvl 1 to 20 still just introduces to the game.
Maybe you should learn to accept different opinions and that not everyone will see it as you do.
I do not think Bioware realy mislead anyone with regards to the type of game they were making. The way you describe it seems to be exactly how I would expect it to be and as for the lifeless cities that has more to do with the number of people playing. Although I admit that having more NPCs that do not stand around is nice but I play a MMORPG for the other players not the NPCs.
So the part that worries me is the storyline and me getting left behind when my friends leap frog ahead of me. I thought though you could join in thier stories unless I am mistaken and go back to your own story line later . This could prove to be a problem when I cannot keep pace with friends.
Nice Post El,
From what I've seen via live streams, I can see your concerns. I chalk it up to low server populations but definitely see where things could have been done better.
For example: Why the load screens when entering a new planet or instanced area?
Why not instead have a troop transport explaining the situation on the ground while you wait in the hold ? Or be left in your spacecraft until the landing CG has been completed?
The bigger cities like Nahl Shaddar (sp) look so Hong Kong/ Blade Runner-esque is there no way to travel the town itself?
I was really hoping for mob owned Night Clubs, Twi'leck restaurants and the like that I could get story from...
In other words, things that make the Star Wars universe breathe outside of the Luke/Anakin/Kotor stories.
I want to smuggle illicit goods/people in my ship's cargo hold and collect bounties.
I want to overhear tell of a retired machinist that designs/builds weapons for the black market in some cantina and beat/bribe where they heard about it out of them.
Then I want to go to the planet he's on, get him to tell me what he knows and follow the breadcrumbs to the guy I can buy/trade/steal some of that gear from.
What I have seen so far doesn't lead me to think that this game has this kind of stuff yet.
I don't know that's the case though and If I'm wrong let me know...
I guess that's my lengthy way of saying that while I want lots of story, I don't want all of it tossed to me. I want to go find as much or more for myself.
Either way, the one thing I do know is that if any company is capable of delivering that quality of experience, it's definitely Bioware. I'll be playing at launch and hoping the game delivers.
Nice write up op, exact same feeling, really surprise that in a 2011/2012 mmo, that the worlds is so dead, compare to a 7 year old game.
For me, a game start from level 1! I dont care if its just starting area, its a very very lame excuse not to do it well.
RIP Orc Choppa
We don't always agree on stuff teala, but yes.
This is just sad. You got people in this thread that has not played the game and is willing to take the OP's opinion as to play or not play. For fucks sake, just get a key and try the game out this coming friday. Atleast you will form an opinion of your own and not have to take someone else's word for it.
I mean, I can give my own opinion on the game and counter what the OP said. I feel that the combat feels alive and does have a jedi outcast feel to it. I never felt for once that the npc's were too light and the world or cities felt empty and dead and like someone else said, the story just made me want to continue to play and never loog off.
Until you try it for yourself, you are doing yourself an injustice and not even are willing to be open minded about the game. The game is not for everyone, that for sure, but atleast play the game and be your own judge.
I won't quote your whole post (Elikal), because that's a lot of post to quote. I will, however, respond.
1) I thought the same thing, until I got off of the starter world. Most of the time when I'm playing an mmo, I get the feeling that I'm on a sound stage, and everything around me is just following a script of some sort. I didn't get that impression with SW:ToR, once I got off the starter world. Perhaps the set was just bigger.
2) The linear game play has never bothered me. In the case of SW:ToR, there's enough variation in the few choices I had (mostly to either kill people or to not kill people) that is was enough. I would prefer a much bigger branching storyline kind of thing, but I'm not sure that's possible given the constraints of time and money available in the world. Perhaps when we have procedural quest generation to the point that it actually tells stories.
3) This didn't really bother me either. In most mmorpg, it's impossible to not realize you're in the game with a bunch of other people, and they are doing exactly what you're doing. SW:ToR isolated me from other stories enough that I didn't feel like I was walking in the shadow of all the other people there. I'm not a huge grouping fan though. I did group with people for the 'heroic' quests and for the instances. It was the old fashioned method of just asking people in chat or who happened to be standing near you. I'd like to see a grouping tool, maybe not at streamlined as the one in WoW, but something. I really liked the auto-grouping in Rift though, so something like that out in the world might be neat.
They definitely need to have something in place for picking out professions. The first profession guy I talked to assigned me that profession, even though I clicked cancel. I had to click all the profession guys and click 'cancel' to get the descriptions into my Codex. I'm not sure why the first one assigned itself to me...perhaps everyone gets that profession. If that's the case, then it should just be there.
I think they need to work on the starter experience as well. It was initially confusing and somewhat chaotic. Your initial experience should be more like Half Life or Bioshock where you're going where the game leads you and then you figure out that little triangles mean missions, etc. A 'Familiarize Yourself With Vendors, Missions and Checkpoints (for fast travel) kind of thing.'
Anyway, I was on the fence, but I expect I will indeed purchase the game and play it. Not going to get the CE though...I'm still not up to spending that much money on one game initially.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Is it not going to be "ok" with you if Elikal continues to discuss the biggest title the mmo genre has seen since the king hit the scene on an internet forum devoted specifically to the mmo genre? Please.
Your dream of having everyone holding hands singing Star Wars lullabies in synchronicity on the SWTOR forums will most likely never see the light of day. In the end you're just gonna tucker yourself out.
Elikal, I have to agree with all of your complaints. While I as well did enjoy the story (the moral decisions that have to be made added greatly to this), the lifelessness, the linearity, and the loneliness of this game are going to be tough to simply just get over. That's not even covering the combat, which for me, does not do the IP any justice whatsoever. Lightsabers and standard theme park mmo combat design do not go hand in hand to say the least.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Isn't it obvious? Some people don't want to try it, they just want confirmation for their dislike, the whole cognitive dissonance mechanic.
? Are you lacking in reading skills or just acting like you didn't understand my post and comments at all?
I absolutely never expected everyone to like the game, in fact I've stated many times that some MMO gamers would definitely not like SWTOR (sandbox lovers, themepark haters, jaded, burnt out MMO drifters etc), so what the fuck are you talking about? Try reading someone else's post next time instead of assuming and kneejerk posting.
I'm going to say it again: it's a good thing if people have concluded for themselves that SWTOR is definitely, absolutely not an MMO they like or want to play, so the pragmatic, sensible among them can now move on to MMO's they think they will be able to enjoy without wasting time and attention anymore to SWTOR with constant doubts whether they should or should not give it a try. Am I effing clear enough for you now?
If someone likes the themepark style of gameplay that SWTOR will have to offer, be ready to have some great fun in SWTOR, if not, stop any flipflopping, make the final decision to forget about SWTOR and move on to an MMO that that person thinks he/she will have fun in. It couldn't be any simpler than that.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."