As long as players continue to kowtow to game designers that do not push the limits of what these games could do, we'll continue to get the same thing over and over again. If there is one thing Skyrim tells us, you can take something and make it better. I've played many SCRPG's in the past and nothing even comes close to Skyrim. Why can't these big gaming companies do the same for MMORPG's. Some of us players are not actually asking for to much really, just make the worlds seem alive and give us more to do other than just play whack-the-mole. SW:ToR is all about whack-the-mole. There is no skill you get in the classes that have anything to do other than combat related skills. Nothing. It is all about combat. The saddest thing of all they built their game around this combat and the combat is lackluster garbage. Tab target and mash a couple of keys. We have that all ready in games like Aion, Warhammer, Rift and WoW...why must we do that all over again? Because the developers of this particular game played it safe and decided to go the WoW route. That is a real shame and I for one will not spend one red cent on a game like that.
LOL, but you'll spend it on Pandas. Anyway, the good thing is that no one is asking you to spend a red penny on this game. There will be enough people who will to make this an extremely successful game.
WoW is as is, the game launched 7 years ago...I am talking about new games...there is no reason for a new game not to be better. Sadly, that is not the case with SW:ToR - WoW in my opinion is the superior game because WoW offers more choices to do what the player wishes to do(for a thempark game that is) you're not stuck to such a rail as you are in SW:ToR.
If they had stopped developing WoW seven years ago after launch and hadn't made literally hundreds of millions of dollar on it to develop it further, then there may be a point... in reality they have been developing WoW and trying to improve WoW to keep it current and evolving and ahead of the themepark pack for the past seven years. That fact alone invalidates any of those arguments as meaningless...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Why even get all bend out of shape at this posters, alot of them that are supposting the OP has been anti-TOR from the get go as well as the OP himself. So why is this a suprise that they would flock here and continue their bashing, they hate on the combat, but yet when a game that came out (DCUO) with a different combat mechanic. It had to go f2p because of lack of support from the playerbase. A couple of games are coming out with this same mechanic that people are so excited about, but yet they fail to support the games that would go out and try to change things up. The truth is people ask for shit, just for the sake of asking, they do not have anything to lose but a little bit of time. Devs and publishers on the other hand have a hell of alot more on the line, because when they stray from the norm for the sake of innovation, they are putting their faith in the so called loyal playerbase. I for one I am glad that Bioware played it safe, that insures them a steady healthy playerbase despite what the bashers say. And guess what these same people we will see them in TOR 3-6 months from release, because believe it or not people do not like to feel left out.
WoW is as is, the game launched 7 years ago...I am talking about new games...there is no reason for a new game not to be better. Sadly, that is not the case with SW:ToR - WoW in my opinion is the superior game because WoW offers more choices to do what the player wishes to do(for a thempark game that is) you're not stuck to such a rail as you are in SW:ToR.
Do you continuously ignore what I say in fear of being wrong?
Why even get all bend out of shape at this posters, alot of them that are supposting the OP has been anti-TOR from the get go as well as the OP himself. So why is this a suprise that they would flock here and continue their bashing, they hate on the combat, but yet when a game that came out (DCUO) with a different combat mechanic. It had to go f2p because of lack of support from the playerbase. A couple of games are coming out with this same mechanic that people are so excited about, but yet they fail to support the games that would go out and try to change things up. The truth is people ask for shit, just for the sake of asking, they do not have anything to lose but a little bit of time. Devs and publishers on the other hand have a hell of alot more on the line, because when they stray from the norm for the sake of innovation, they are putting their faith in the so called loyal playerbase. I for one I am glad that Bioware played it safe, that insures them a steady healthy playerbase despite what the bashers say. And guess what these same people we will see them in TOR 3-6 months from release, because believe it or not people do not like to feel left out.
Won't see me in SW:ToR, just like you never saw me in AIon, Warhammer, or Rift nor any other poorly made clone of WoW - ever. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
Why even get all bend out of shape at this posters, alot of them that are supposting the OP has been anti-TOR from the get go as well as the OP himself. So why is this a suprise that they would flock here and continue their bashing, they hate on the combat, but yet when a game that came out (DCUO) with a different combat mechanic. It had to go f2p because of lack of support from the playerbase. A couple of games are coming out with this same mechanic that people are so excited about, but yet they fail to support the games that would go out and try to change things up. The truth is people ask for shit, just for the sake of asking, they do not have anything to lose but a little bit of time. Devs and publishers on the other hand have a hell of alot more on the line, because when they stray from the norm for the sake of innovation, they are putting their faith in the so called loyal playerbase. I for one I am glad that Bioware played it safe, that insures them a steady healthy playerbase despite what the bashers say. And guess what these same people we will see them in TOR 3-6 months from release, because believe it or not people do not like to feel left out.
Won't see me in SW:ToR, just like you never saw me in AIon, Warhammer, or Rift nor any other poorly made clone of WoW - ever. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
There were people that played EQ that said the same thing about WoW, and guess were they ended up. I won't waste my time on this, because I will be happily blasting my way through TOR, and you'll be happily doing whatever it is you do. I played WoW also it was good game until Cata, and everything in it now is just a rehash so it is what it is.
Why even get all bend out of shape at this posters, alot of them that are supposting the OP has been anti-TOR from the get go as well as the OP himself. So why is this a suprise that they would flock here and continue their bashing, they hate on the combat, but yet when a game that came out (DCUO) with a different combat mechanic. It had to go f2p because of lack of support from the playerbase. A couple of games are coming out with this same mechanic that people are so excited about, but yet they fail to support the games that would go out and try to change things up. The truth is people ask for shit, just for the sake of asking, they do not have anything to lose but a little bit of time. Devs and publishers on the other hand have a hell of alot more on the line, because when they stray from the norm for the sake of innovation, they are putting their faith in the so called loyal playerbase. I for one I am glad that Bioware played it safe, that insures them a steady healthy playerbase despite what the bashers say. And guess what these same people we will see them in TOR 3-6 months from release, because believe it or not people do not like to feel left out.
Won't see me in SW:ToR, just like you never saw me in AIon, Warhammer, or Rift nor any other poorly made clone of WoW - ever. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
Why do you put so much of your time and energy into posting on the swtor forum? If the game isn't for you fine but there are likely many games in the games lists with forums that you don't like. why not post on those as well? It's odd.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I enjoyed my time in SWTOR for the most part. My two main concerns are the solo combat game and total lack of difficulty/strategy and I agree that linear path leveling is the devil. The starter worlds a far too small and walled in. I even found the second planet Dromund Kaas to be too walled in, although it did seem bigger.
As far as solo combat goes, I did like that the Imperial Agent felt like there were some tactics involved rather than hope the mob falls dead before I do. I think the game should require you to pay actual attention to the mob and the abilities he's using during the fight. This diablo style solo combat has to end one day (twitch combat sucks as well, I'm not suggesting that either).
Overall, I still have high hopes for the game as I think they have a solid foundation, it's just not up to the level of a game that's been out for years. Hopefully, they will be able to add/change things somewhat quickly after release.
Also, Elikal, I can't help but notice how much you compare SWTOR to Skyrim. I believe such a comparison would best be left unused since both games are vastly different in their design philosophies, their technical capabilities, their business models, and their target audiences. It just seems like you have unrealistic expectations in regards to what TOR sells itself off as. Simply put, don't let Skyrim, a single-player sandbox-style game, influence the way you view SWTOR and other MMO's in general since they will never be the same. It just isn't a valid and credible analogy.
Some Skyim examples.
- I was in a tavern, and tossed over a vase accidentally, and the daughter of the inn keeper yelled at me "Hey, watch it!"
- I was walking in a city with shield and 1handed sword, and a guard I passed by said "I too prefer one handed weapon. Always the best choice!"
- I dropped my tash stuff in the streets since I felt I carried too much, and a guard yelled at me "Don't drop you trash here, or else!"
- Guards partrol the city, in the night with torches. If you pass by them they look at you!
- When I enter a Jarls court or a tavern, the NPCs always stand somewhere else, always doing something else. In MMOs, when I enter a palance or a tavern, all NPCs always stand at the same place.
- When I did something in the city, the NPCs talk about it.
- a blackmith works at his various workbenches, makes a lunch break, have conversations with friends on the way, then goes back to work, then to his house for dinner than to bed.
Why can this not exist in a MMO at least to *some* degree? Why are all NPCs like nailed to the group puppets even now in a 2012 MMO? I mean, I know a MMO can't copy single player game mechanics 100%. But a bit more than this 10 year old MMO concept should be possible these days. At least some fake city life. A few things going on around me in a city. But this was just SO bad. Sorry, I loved a lot other things, but these dead cities really annoyed me.
That and the awful plastic textures.
These shoulderpads are supposed to be metal, but don't LOOK like metal: (And the shirt at the neck looks like drawn on the skin! Even the most flimsy shirt has *some* thickness and doesn't cling to the skin like that! It looks like a 10 year old 3d mesh!)
Also, Elikal, I can't help but notice how much you compare SWTOR to Skyrim. I believe such a comparison would best be left unused since both games are vastly different in their design philosophies, their technical capabilities, their business models, and their target audiences. It just seems like you have unrealistic expectations in regards to what TOR sells itself off as. Simply put, don't let Skyrim, a single-player sandbox-style game, influence the way you view SWTOR and other MMO's in general since they will never be the same. It just isn't a valid and credible analogy.
Some Skyim examples.
- I was in a tavern, and tossed over a vase accidentally, and the daughter of the inn keeper yelled at me "Hey, watch it!"
- I was walking in a city with shield and 1handed sword, and a guard I passed by said "I too prefer one handed weapon. Always the best choice!"
- I dropped my tash stuff in the streets since I felt I carried too much, and a guard yelled at me "Don't drop you trash here, or else!"
- Guards partrol the city, in the night with torches. If you pass by them they look at you!
- When I enter a Jarls court or a tavern, the NPCs always stand somewhere else, always doing something else. In MMOs, when I enter a palance or a tavern, all NPCs always stand at the same place.
- When I did something in the city, the NPCs talk about it.
- a blackmith works at his various workbenches, makes a lunch break, have conversations with friends on the way, then goes back to work, then to his house for dinner than to bed.
Why can this not exist in a MMO at least to *some* degree? Why are all NPCs like nailed to the group puppets even now in a 2012 MMO?
Are you honestly asking why you don't see the kind of immersion in mmorpgs that exist in a single player rpg? Seriously? Like, you truly don't know the answer to that question?
Love the myriad excuses people ahve made in this thread to the OP's astute and valid observations.
Pride is a hard-to-swallow pill, after all.
Maybe you should learn to accept different opinions and that not everyone will see it as you do.
"This game lacks some features but I am okay with that" is a difference of opinion.
"The tutorial level is pathetically small in scale because it's the tutorial" is settling for low standards established by companies of the past that did not know better.
"This game never advertised to be revolutionary" from the same person who said "This game will revolutionise the genre" is not a difference of opinion; it's plain foolish, or schizophrenic or both. (And don't ask me to point out who these posters are; against my better judgement, I trust in your intelligence to read your fellow posters' posts and ascertain for yourself. Not a hard task considering there are loads of these types of people who contradict themselves willy-nilly to suit their own warped fanboy fancies.)
Maybe you should learn a better way to process your thoughts and come to conclusions that make an aiota of sense
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Maybe you should learn a better way to process your thoughts and come to conclusions that make an aiota of sense
Good advice. You better get to it fast, you still have a long way to go
As for the arguments, they're just too silly to even give credit. Some people enjoy themepark MMO gameplay and will enjoy SWTOR, some people prefer sandbox MMO's or have themselves burnt out on themepark MMO's and burnt out their ability to have fun in them and those people won't enjoy SWTOR, different individual requirements for gaming fun for different people, that's all there is to it.
Some people can accept that simple truth, others feel that if they are unable to enjoy an MMORPG, everybody should be exactly as they themselves and also be unable to enjoy that MMORPG. Lack of empathy or inability to understand other viewpoints and opinions not their own, is my guess.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"The tutorial level is pathetically small in scale because it's the tutorial" is settling for low standards established by companies of the past that did not know better.
Actually it's intentionally small to accomodate players who have neither sprint skills nor mounts.
There are ways to do this without shoehorning the player and making the world feel claustrophobic. It's the oldest trick in the book - that applies to virtually everything in the world: make something appear one way, different from what it really is.
It's small to make it easily navigable for people who haven't a clue where they're supposed to be going or what they're supposed to be doing.
Again, see above.
They know quite well what they're doing.
The rest of your post, except for this line has been a littany of excuses. This line is what is a difference of opinion. Obviously, you're okay with what is mediocre, uninspired and safe by my standards. But I'm happily willing to concede that those are my standards and don't have to apply to anyone else. It's only the starting zone, after all - it will make no difference in the long run. It's a drop in the ocean.
(Unfortunately though, it creates discontent among people like me, or Seasoned gaming vets like the OP who love the IP and are expecting something exceptional right off the gate which isn't an unreasonable expectation in my opinion.)
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
They're reasons. You call them excuses because you don't like them. For this game it works fine.
Works both ways. All I have seen here is you excusing the developers for how they have executed their game. Instead of saying, "It could have been better", you say, "It could have been worse" or "It is fine" when clearly it isn't - if there are dissenters among your staunchest fans (OP, for instance). This is when a reason is an excuse in my eyes.
As a matter of fact one of the most common complaints about the starter areas in beta was too much running. Molstly from people who didn't take advantage of the fast travel options. Clearly it's unreasonable to make games for seasoned gaming vets exclusively because there are so few of them and they're never satisfied.
Again, I disagree. A balance can and has been achieved inprevious games: WoW, and AoC come to mind. My feelings about the game world have been essentially identical whether it was the first time I played or the tenth (although my feeling about the levelling experience definitely varied betweent he first and the tenth time).
Also, I am not sure what to make of your former point. You say that people thought that they had to run too often which would support your claim of the world being large. Then you cite the quick travel opportunities. So here is a failing on the part of the players and not some confirmation of the world being vast.
On a related point: given the presence of these convenient ways to travel, it's unfortunate BW did not take it one step further. But you will probably say that that is fne. Again, this brings me back to the first point I make in this post. You're obviously comfortable with settling; so what if we call it different things?
I also doubt you've explored the starter areas exhaustively because they are quite large and some strange things are hidden there off the beaten path if you know where to look.
I'll admit, I haven't. But the presence of easter eggs will not change my impression unfortunately. Are they charming? Sure (I'm assuming they are). But so were the little puzzles in RIFT and in no shape or form did they make the world feel expansive and open.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
There's hundreds of "reviews" on the internet now, from character levels 1-20 approx. Most of these "reviews" end up telling what kind of a game TOR is, in great detail, also the "reviewer" and some readers make decisions whether they will play the game or not based on all that. All that is very hard for me to understand, it's like we're back to the times where people give their judgement on a mmorpg based on the noob levels VS. the game being something where you supposedly spend 90+% of the played time on max level doing whatever you do at max level.
I'm not sure what to make of that, personally I've been trying to find now after the NDA lift a lot of information on higher level stuff and class abilities and such to make up my mind about what class to play and what kind of content to expect, but ALL I see are these lvl20 "reviews" - how people dont feel like being in a mmo, I dont think I ever did anything mmo-like in any mmorpg when I was lvl20 maybe hit 1 dungeon - and quite honestly they are starting to annoy me just because I cant find any information about the game beyond everyone's impressions of the game after they finished Elwynn Forest and there was not enough raids and world bosses or open world PvP objectives at lvl15.
I understand everyone is in a hurry to pass their judgement now after the NDA lift, but seriously fluff butterflies and not enough NPC's that walk around in cities are the least interesting bits to propably most people looking to play a mmorpg with thousands of other people perhaps a long time. I do love my butterflies and back and forth walking NPC's in Skyrim, and I damn well have earned them for running around alone in a singleplayer game which also could be a bit bigger tbh (best singleplayer game propably in 5 years for me though, hats off for Skyrim, fus-ro-dah!).
I played beta too. The world does seem dead. Most NPC's just stand there like cardboard cutouts. Mobs are so static that you can fight them with one hand while snacking on something.
I didn't feel like i was in a star wars universe. That's the major negative for me.
There's hundreds of "reviews" on the internet now, from character levels 1-20 approx. Most of these "reviews" end up telling what kind of a game TOR is, in great detail, also the "reviewer" and some readers make decisions whether they will play the game or not based on all that. All that is very hard for me to understand, it's like we're back to the times where people give their judgement on a mmorpg based on the noob levels VS. the game being something where you supposedly spend 90+% of the played time on max level doing whatever you do at max level.
I'm not sure what to make of that, personally I've been trying to find now after the NDA lift a lot of information on higher level stuff and class abilities and such to make up my mind about what class to play and what kind of content to expect, but ALL I see are these lvl20 "reviews" - how people dont feel like being in a mmo, I dont think I ever did anything mmo-like in any mmorpg when I was lvl20 maybe hit 1 dungeon - and quite honestly they are starting to annoy me just because I cant find any information about the game beyond everyone's impressions of the game after they finished Elwynn Forest and there was not enough raids and world bosses or open world PvP objectives at lvl15.
I understand everyone is in a hurry to pass their judgement now after the NDA lift, but seriously fluff butterflies and not enough NPC's that walk around in cities are the least interesting bits to propably most people looking to play a mmorpg with thousands of other people perhaps a long time. I do love my butterflies and back and forth walking NPC's in Skyrim, and I damn well have earned them for running around alone in a singleplayer game which also could be a bit bigger tbh (best singleplayer game propably in 5 years for me though, hats off for Skyrim, fus-ro-dah!).
Most of theses previewers got about 3 days to level up a character so they won't get uber far into the game, least not the high level stuff. 20 is generally if you stuck to 1 character and did it for a while.
Now with that said they have another test coming up and they decided NOT to delete the characters, which mean some of us will get further then 20, which means the next set of previews will be based off of mid level content. Seeing as we can combine the time we spent on day 1-3 with days 4-7, giving a compare and contrast to how the game played those last 3 days with how it plays these days. Give it to about the end of the week, you'll start seeing previews pop up for later content as well.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Back on the first page the Poster gave a lengthy review and a post (or two) down presented screenshots of his characters. Now, my question....you only played to level 5? Screenshots are from the "starter" world which is pretty small and the characters are minimally equipped at that time. Perhaps you should have played to at least level 30 and then posted a review. While some of your concerns may have merit, I think that much of it is pure speculation on something you have not really experienced or perhaps a definate bias against the game for whatever reason. Hey, if you don't like the game that is fine. However, do not try to represent that the points made were coming from a high level of knowledge.
There's hundreds of "reviews" on the internet now, from character levels 1-20 approx. Most of these "reviews" end up telling what kind of a game TOR is, in great detail, also the "reviewer" and some readers make decisions whether they will play the game or not based on all that. All that is very hard for me to understand, it's like we're back to the times where people give their judgement on a mmorpg based on the noob levels VS. the game being something where you supposedly spend 90+% of the played time on max level doing whatever you do at max level.
I'm not sure what to make of that, personally I've been trying to find now after the NDA lift a lot of information on higher level stuff and class abilities and such to make up my mind about what class to play and what kind of content to expect, but ALL I see are these lvl20 "reviews" - how people dont feel like being in a mmo, I dont think I ever did anything mmo-like in any mmorpg when I was lvl20 maybe hit 1 dungeon - and quite honestly they are starting to annoy me just because I cant find any information about the game beyond everyone's impressions of the game after they finished Elwynn Forest and there was not enough raids and world bosses or open world PvP objectives at lvl15.
I understand everyone is in a hurry to pass their judgement now after the NDA lift, but seriously fluff butterflies and not enough NPC's that walk around in cities are the least interesting bits to propably most people looking to play a mmorpg with thousands of other people perhaps a long time. I do love my butterflies and back and forth walking NPC's in Skyrim, and I damn well have earned them for running around alone in a singleplayer game which also could be a bit bigger tbh (best singleplayer game propably in 5 years for me though, hats off for Skyrim, fus-ro-dah!).
a) I never pretended it was a review, hence calling it "beta reflections".
b) I said quite clear I played only 5 days and only the early level.
So people get what I said this was. A brief insight.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Back on the first page the Poster gave a lengthy review and a post (or two) down presented screenshots of his characters. Now, my question....you only played to level 5? Screenshots are from the "starter" world which is pretty small and the characters are minimally equipped at that time. Perhaps you should have played to at least level 30 and then posted a review. While some of your concerns may have merit, I think that much of it is pure speculation on something you have not really experienced or perhaps a definate bias against the game for whatever reason. Hey, if you don't like the game that is fine. However, do not try to represent that the points made were coming from a high level of knowledge.
I played into late teens up to 20, but not playing on my own computer, I only had my friend sent a few screenshots, and it was only the earliest level screenshots he had kept.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Wait a minute, you get to play this game for 2 days recently and come to all those conclusions? That seems more than a little over the top for me. Could it possibly be that your previously admitted bias against this game is not making you look for problems where they don't exist OR are making you exxagerate the problems you do see?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There's hundreds of "reviews" on the internet now, from character levels 1-20 approx. Most of these "reviews" end up telling what kind of a game TOR is, in great detail, also the "reviewer" and some readers make decisions whether they will play the game or not based on all that. All that is very hard for me to understand, it's like we're back to the times where people give their judgement on a mmorpg based on the noob levels VS. the game being something where you supposedly spend 90+% of the played time on max level doing whatever you do at max level.
I'm not sure what to make of that, personally I've been trying to find now after the NDA lift a lot of information on higher level stuff and class abilities and such to make up my mind about what class to play and what kind of content to expect, but ALL I see are these lvl20 "reviews" - how people dont feel like being in a mmo, I dont think I ever did anything mmo-like in any mmorpg when I was lvl20 maybe hit 1 dungeon - and quite honestly they are starting to annoy me just because I cant find any information about the game beyond everyone's impressions of the game after they finished Elwynn Forest and there was not enough raids and world bosses or open world PvP objectives at lvl15.
I understand everyone is in a hurry to pass their judgement now after the NDA lift, but seriously fluff butterflies and not enough NPC's that walk around in cities are the least interesting bits to propably most people looking to play a mmorpg with thousands of other people perhaps a long time. I do love my butterflies and back and forth walking NPC's in Skyrim, and I damn well have earned them for running around alone in a singleplayer game which also could be a bit bigger tbh (best singleplayer game propably in 5 years for me though, hats off for Skyrim, fus-ro-dah!).
Most of theses previewers got about 3 days to level up a character so they won't get uber far into the game, least not the high level stuff. 20 is generally if you stuck to 1 character and did it for a while.
Now with that said they have another test coming up and they decided NOT to delete the characters, which mean some of us will get further then 20, which means the next set of previews will be based off of mid level content. Seeing as we can combine the time we spent on day 1-3 with days 4-7, giving a compare and contrast to how the game played those last 3 days with how it plays these days. Give it to about the end of the week, you'll start seeing previews pop up for later content as well.
Yeah, I do hope there's something end-gameish incoming. Maybe you should make a thread about it since you seem to be well on the map of things I've seen a few comments about lvl40+ something, I suppose the bits are from long time testers but nothing solid really...
I can understand #1. Even World of Warcraft makes some NPCs move around and do stuff. Like the little orc peons that occasionally goto sleep and you have to do a quest to wake them up. Hopefully not all the cities in TOR have NPCs that just stand in one spot. I played Dark Age of Camelot though, so I'm used to 90% of all NPCs standing in one spot, but that was 2001. Surely a 2011 MMORPG will have something better right? Still, what brings to life an MMORPG are its players mostly. Skyrim is an exception - it brings its world to life with its computer controlled characters and graphics like being able to see leaves falling out of trees and blowing in the wind.
#3 isn't a good thing if true. MMORPGs are supposed to give the feeling that thousands of other players are out there in the world somewhere and you're also supposed to see player activity everywhere.
The fact of the matter is that this (#3) is where MMORPGs have come. It will take maybe another 5 or 10 years for them to change and that's if they even do. Give up on MMORPGs for a while and go find something else to do like me and stop paying money to the ones that do this. Vote with your wallet.
I'm still going to give TOR a shot just because I believe programmers put some hard work into making it, but I have learned from World of Warcraft that I should uninstall and unsubscribe after a certain point while I wait for the MMORPG of my dreams to come out even if it may never. It's better to play games you do like, like skyrim.
Comments
WoW is as is, the game launched 7 years ago...I am talking about new games...there is no reason for a new game not to be better. Sadly, that is not the case with SW:ToR - WoW in my opinion is the superior game because WoW offers more choices to do what the player wishes to do(for a thempark game that is) you're not stuck to such a rail as you are in SW:ToR.
If they had stopped developing WoW seven years ago after launch and hadn't made literally hundreds of millions of dollar on it to develop it further, then there may be a point... in reality they have been developing WoW and trying to improve WoW to keep it current and evolving and ahead of the themepark pack for the past seven years. That fact alone invalidates any of those arguments as meaningless...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Why even get all bend out of shape at this posters, alot of them that are supposting the OP has been anti-TOR from the get go as well as the OP himself. So why is this a suprise that they would flock here and continue their bashing, they hate on the combat, but yet when a game that came out (DCUO) with a different combat mechanic. It had to go f2p because of lack of support from the playerbase. A couple of games are coming out with this same mechanic that people are so excited about, but yet they fail to support the games that would go out and try to change things up. The truth is people ask for shit, just for the sake of asking, they do not have anything to lose but a little bit of time. Devs and publishers on the other hand have a hell of alot more on the line, because when they stray from the norm for the sake of innovation, they are putting their faith in the so called loyal playerbase. I for one I am glad that Bioware played it safe, that insures them a steady healthy playerbase despite what the bashers say. And guess what these same people we will see them in TOR 3-6 months from release, because believe it or not people do not like to feel left out.
Do you continuously ignore what I say in fear of being wrong?
Won't see me in SW:ToR, just like you never saw me in AIon, Warhammer, or Rift nor any other poorly made clone of WoW - ever. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
There were people that played EQ that said the same thing about WoW, and guess were they ended up. I won't waste my time on this, because I will be happily blasting my way through TOR, and you'll be happily doing whatever it is you do. I played WoW also it was good game until Cata, and everything in it now is just a rehash so it is what it is.
Why do you put so much of your time and energy into posting on the swtor forum? If the game isn't for you fine but there are likely many games in the games lists with forums that you don't like. why not post on those as well? It's odd.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I enjoyed my time in SWTOR for the most part. My two main concerns are the solo combat game and total lack of difficulty/strategy and I agree that linear path leveling is the devil. The starter worlds a far too small and walled in. I even found the second planet Dromund Kaas to be too walled in, although it did seem bigger.
As far as solo combat goes, I did like that the Imperial Agent felt like there were some tactics involved rather than hope the mob falls dead before I do. I think the game should require you to pay actual attention to the mob and the abilities he's using during the fight. This diablo style solo combat has to end one day (twitch combat sucks as well, I'm not suggesting that either).
Overall, I still have high hopes for the game as I think they have a solid foundation, it's just not up to the level of a game that's been out for years. Hopefully, they will be able to add/change things somewhat quickly after release.
Some Skyim examples.
- I was in a tavern, and tossed over a vase accidentally, and the daughter of the inn keeper yelled at me "Hey, watch it!"
- I was walking in a city with shield and 1handed sword, and a guard I passed by said "I too prefer one handed weapon. Always the best choice!"
- I dropped my tash stuff in the streets since I felt I carried too much, and a guard yelled at me "Don't drop you trash here, or else!"
- Guards partrol the city, in the night with torches. If you pass by them they look at you!
- When I enter a Jarls court or a tavern, the NPCs always stand somewhere else, always doing something else. In MMOs, when I enter a palance or a tavern, all NPCs always stand at the same place.
- When I did something in the city, the NPCs talk about it.
- a blackmith works at his various workbenches, makes a lunch break, have conversations with friends on the way, then goes back to work, then to his house for dinner than to bed.
Why can this not exist in a MMO at least to *some* degree? Why are all NPCs like nailed to the group puppets even now in a 2012 MMO? I mean, I know a MMO can't copy single player game mechanics 100%. But a bit more than this 10 year old MMO concept should be possible these days. At least some fake city life. A few things going on around me in a city. But this was just SO bad. Sorry, I loved a lot other things, but these dead cities really annoyed me.
That and the awful plastic textures.
These shoulderpads are supposed to be metal, but don't LOOK like metal: (And the shirt at the neck looks like drawn on the skin! Even the most flimsy shirt has *some* thickness and doesn't cling to the skin like that! It looks like a 10 year old 3d mesh!)
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/04e79c98-347f-4134-a31e-beaf4fc728a2
This cloak is supposed to be cloth, but it doesn't look like cloth:
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/f1d09561-c770-4573-8d9f-b854b1a2084a
Star Trek payamas?
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/e591f125-17b8-4ddc-9a55-dad36a5d7edd
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Are you honestly asking why you don't see the kind of immersion in mmorpgs that exist in a single player rpg? Seriously? Like, you truly don't know the answer to that question?
"This game lacks some features but I am okay with that" is a difference of opinion.
"The tutorial level is pathetically small in scale because it's the tutorial" is settling for low standards established by companies of the past that did not know better.
"This game never advertised to be revolutionary" from the same person who said "This game will revolutionise the genre" is not a difference of opinion; it's plain foolish, or schizophrenic or both. (And don't ask me to point out who these posters are; against my better judgement, I trust in your intelligence to read your fellow posters' posts and ascertain for yourself. Not a hard task considering there are loads of these types of people who contradict themselves willy-nilly to suit their own warped fanboy fancies.)
Maybe you should learn a better way to process your thoughts and come to conclusions that make an aiota of sense
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
Good advice. You better get to it fast, you still have a long way to go
As for the arguments, they're just too silly to even give credit. Some people enjoy themepark MMO gameplay and will enjoy SWTOR, some people prefer sandbox MMO's or have themselves burnt out on themepark MMO's and burnt out their ability to have fun in them and those people won't enjoy SWTOR, different individual requirements for gaming fun for different people, that's all there is to it.
Some people can accept that simple truth, others feel that if they are unable to enjoy an MMORPG, everybody should be exactly as they themselves and also be unable to enjoy that MMORPG. Lack of empathy or inability to understand other viewpoints and opinions not their own, is my guess.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
There's hundreds of "reviews" on the internet now, from character levels 1-20 approx. Most of these "reviews" end up telling what kind of a game TOR is, in great detail, also the "reviewer" and some readers make decisions whether they will play the game or not based on all that. All that is very hard for me to understand, it's like we're back to the times where people give their judgement on a mmorpg based on the noob levels VS. the game being something where you supposedly spend 90+% of the played time on max level doing whatever you do at max level.
I'm not sure what to make of that, personally I've been trying to find now after the NDA lift a lot of information on higher level stuff and class abilities and such to make up my mind about what class to play and what kind of content to expect, but ALL I see are these lvl20 "reviews" - how people dont feel like being in a mmo, I dont think I ever did anything mmo-like in any mmorpg when I was lvl20 maybe hit 1 dungeon - and quite honestly they are starting to annoy me just because I cant find any information about the game beyond everyone's impressions of the game after they finished Elwynn Forest and there was not enough raids and world bosses or open world PvP objectives at lvl15.
I understand everyone is in a hurry to pass their judgement now after the NDA lift, but seriously fluff butterflies and not enough NPC's that walk around in cities are the least interesting bits to propably most people looking to play a mmorpg with thousands of other people perhaps a long time. I do love my butterflies and back and forth walking NPC's in Skyrim, and I damn well have earned them for running around alone in a singleplayer game which also could be a bit bigger tbh (best singleplayer game propably in 5 years for me though, hats off for Skyrim, fus-ro-dah!).
I played beta too. The world does seem dead. Most NPC's just stand there like cardboard cutouts. Mobs are so static that you can fight them with one hand while snacking on something.
I didn't feel like i was in a star wars universe. That's the major negative for me.
Most of theses previewers got about 3 days to level up a character so they won't get uber far into the game, least not the high level stuff. 20 is generally if you stuck to 1 character and did it for a while.
Now with that said they have another test coming up and they decided NOT to delete the characters, which mean some of us will get further then 20, which means the next set of previews will be based off of mid level content. Seeing as we can combine the time we spent on day 1-3 with days 4-7, giving a compare and contrast to how the game played those last 3 days with how it plays these days. Give it to about the end of the week, you'll start seeing previews pop up for later content as well.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Back on the first page the Poster gave a lengthy review and a post (or two) down presented screenshots of his characters. Now, my question....you only played to level 5? Screenshots are from the "starter" world which is pretty small and the characters are minimally equipped at that time. Perhaps you should have played to at least level 30 and then posted a review. While some of your concerns may have merit, I think that much of it is pure speculation on something you have not really experienced or perhaps a definate bias against the game for whatever reason. Hey, if you don't like the game that is fine. However, do not try to represent that the points made were coming from a high level of knowledge.
Let's party like it is 1863!
a) I never pretended it was a review, hence calling it "beta reflections".
b) I said quite clear I played only 5 days and only the early level.
So people get what I said this was. A brief insight.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I played into late teens up to 20, but not playing on my own computer, I only had my friend sent a few screenshots, and it was only the earliest level screenshots he had kept.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Wait a minute, you get to play this game for 2 days recently and come to all those conclusions? That seems more than a little over the top for me. Could it possibly be that your previously admitted bias against this game is not making you look for problems where they don't exist OR are making you exxagerate the problems you do see?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Yeah, I do hope there's something end-gameish incoming. Maybe you should make a thread about it since you seem to be well on the map of things
I've seen a few comments about lvl40+ something, I suppose the bits are from long time testers but nothing solid really...
I can understand #1. Even World of Warcraft makes some NPCs move around and do stuff. Like the little orc peons that occasionally goto sleep and you have to do a quest to wake them up. Hopefully not all the cities in TOR have NPCs that just stand in one spot. I played Dark Age of Camelot though, so I'm used to 90% of all NPCs standing in one spot, but that was 2001. Surely a 2011 MMORPG will have something better right? Still, what brings to life an MMORPG are its players mostly. Skyrim is an exception - it brings its world to life with its computer controlled characters and graphics like being able to see leaves falling out of trees and blowing in the wind.
#3 isn't a good thing if true. MMORPGs are supposed to give the feeling that thousands of other players are out there in the world somewhere and you're also supposed to see player activity everywhere.
The fact of the matter is that this (#3) is where MMORPGs have come. It will take maybe another 5 or 10 years for them to change and that's if they even do. Give up on MMORPGs for a while and go find something else to do like me and stop paying money to the ones that do this. Vote with your wallet.
I'm still going to give TOR a shot just because I believe programmers put some hard work into making it, but I have learned from World of Warcraft that I should uninstall and unsubscribe after a certain point while I wait for the MMORPG of my dreams to come out even if it may never. It's better to play games you do like, like skyrim.