My opinion, you can call it a wake up call

dubyahite · November 2011

Originally posted by Morgaur
Comment on the original post.

This is exactly what I told my friends after the last beta. Its exactly the same as WoW, just reskinned. Everything is identical. Someone above here somewhere wrote "im going to play this as long as I played Rift, about a month". My accurate words lol. Maybe its just me, im old and tired of the same old same old

Anyway its worth the cash for a month of entertainment.

Im going to play in the next beta if I bother to start the game

Everything is identical? I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that statement is.

Seriously? Have you even played the game?

It may be derivitive but identical? That's just false. I feel sorry for your friends if they rely on you for video game reviews.

UrzaElent · November 2011

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen

Please, my above points are valid: you simply need to look at this from an unbiased view. "The customer is always right", IS not a bulletproof concept, but if the potential customer says a game is bad, this is not a good sign. There are only so many starstruck Beta Testers and investigative gamers in the world: casuals are the key to success, and that is economic fact.

Sincerely,

Zillen

Well, considering this game is going to have 2.5 to 3 million units sold at launch AND has been receiving a very positive response from its beta testers, I'd say odds are pretty good that Bioware's formula is going to be pretty successful, despite your contention that something can only be improved upon and refined once (which is bullshit, btw).

That being said, the longevity of this game will be determined on what Bioware does post launch.

Never said that a formula or strategy couldn't be refined more than once. Did you see me write that? Of course you didn't. It wasn't there.

I think we can all agree, though, that there is a reason that WoW is losing subscribers, and that Titan is being developed, and that MMOs are emerging that are beginning to take on semblances of originality (if such things exist in this industry anymore). It is because even Blizzard is recognising that its marketing equation, however intricate and regularly-renovated, cannot last indefinitely.

The World of Warcraft Business Plan IS a business plan, and like an oil well that was once a vast source of wealth, this flow is beginning to stem. EA, despite Bioware's involvement, IS ultimately EA Games - it is in charge, and it is after some serious profit to outweigh its production costs. Bioware may be known for its creativity, but it's EA-Bioware now: it ultimately isn't the one steering, and if you believe that this game will sacrifice profit for the sake of creativity, than you are sorely mistaken.

I never said it could not be innovated upon multiple times. But the spell that WoW has blanketed the industry in...is finally...out of mana.

PS: Love how you only linked my conclusion, instead of drawing attention to my overall case.

And ArenaNet is owned by NCsoft, and guess what, I'd trust EA any day of the week over NCsoft. Oh and btw, we all know just how innovative and creative those south korean games are. Gezz, ever wonder why all those GW xpacs looked just like the rest of the stuff coming out of Korea. Just look at who owns the company their business plan.

Since GW2 is the only thing out there right now that can remotely compete with SWTOR, and that in and of itself is just a pipe dream, I wouldnt be so fast to point out which devs work for this company or that cause NCsoft/ArenaNet has nothing on EA, Bioware or Blizzard. Maybe if and when they can actually put together a game that doesnt fade away to the fringes just as soon as it is released they can say they can compete with the real movers of the industry.

As for your comment about WoWs spell finally slowing down, better to slow down after 6 years at the summit than to spend that same amount of time still dreaming about even seeing the mountain.

Note: This post goes out to my two repliers, however I will utilise the quote of the first.

Firstly, and to the first replier,

I would say that the primary reason for NCSoft's lesser place in the market would be for the precise reasons that I am interpreting in your reply: gamers from Western culture simply are less comfortable in their reception of games in Asia. However, I would like to point out that my main criticisms of SW:TOR revolve around the way it has been promoted, and the game's use of what I consider to be severely-aged concepts, NOT THOSE BEHIND ITS CREATION so much.

I once again refer to the Skinner Box experiment - please google it. This science, will made by an intelligent and respectful man, is the core concept behind the addictive and grind-happy nature of MMOs today. It is the master-equation that WoW built its subscriber numbers on, and it's stagnancy is becoming apparent.

Please do not make this into an argument about the designers, developers and funders of these games - I have great respect for those at Blizzard, Bioware and NCSoft equally. It is the marketing techniques and concepts they are basing their game's on that I dislike.

Which lead's me neatly onto the second replier: I apologise. I probably did word that a bit confusingly - it happens with long forum posts of mine. Just to clarify - I am not predicting the failure of SW:TOR, or the success of GW2. For all I know, Guild Wars 2 could become the bomb of the year, and all that SW:TOR has to offer may not be completely apparent to me until I HAVE played it. However, my concerns lie exclusively with the abuse of World of Warcraft's success path.

Bioware's founders have specifically stated the company's intent to keep true to the "WoW rules" which Blizzard built its blockbuster on, and my complaints revolve solely around the overuse of the WoW Equation. I do believe that good ideas can be innovated upon and refined far beyond their original form, and multiple times.

However, I have no desire to see companies and developers continuing to utilise an aged, outdated and addiction-rewarding strategy as the core concept of their products. I believe we have the technology and resources to make something more innovative - we just need to break out of a purely economic reward-over-risk mindset.

I find it quite funny - that is, the amount of people who complain that WoW clones are rampant, and that no games provide new gameplay in this industry. Innovation will not happen until we close our wallets, take a good hard think and purge the unnecessary concepts of yesteryears out of our systems.

I hear trolls? I say: why are you paying the people you claim to despise?

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.

Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.

Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

dubyahite · November 2011

<-------- GW2 forum is that way.

synn · November 2011

Originally posted by felyx

PvP... I mean really? I know Wow devs already making a hutball like pvp for the next expansion basically stealing the idea, but you cant blame them more than you can blame SWTOR devs stealing pretty much every good idea from Wow... There are a few new ideas that can entertain you for a couple of weeks, after that it will get boring just like Wow bgs do. That PvP planet or whatnot might be a nice addition but again, I dont think thats enough.

okay i pretty much stopped reading after i hit this paragraph. Coming from someone that claims to have been playing MMOs for 10+ years then turn around and saying stealing every good idea from wow...really??? Now i gotta admit I haven't played wow since BC so blizzard may have actually have come up with their own ideas I know from before that though every thing that made up wow could be found in various MMOs. WoW to me is nothing more then a "greatest hits" MMO. nothing against them for finding something that not only worked, but worked damn well!!!!

Anyways, alot of gamers are expecting MMOs that are completely original. The problem is that somethng like that is a huge financial risk. If you had to put your money up to make a game would you rather invest in a game that offered some originality but still follows the same basic recipe that most popular games follow or would you risk it in something completely original with the hopes that gamers will like the completed product. Gamers like to complain about originality but when a dev tries to add some originaltiy and fails....they flood forums about the game being a pos and they should have done this or that etc...

Guileplayer · November 2011

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.

Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.

Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

Good post. Imo guild wars 2 looks like shit. and i think it will be the biggest let down in video game history. But you don't see me go over to GW 2 boards and create a topic lol.

UrzaElent · November 2011

Originally posted by Guileplayer

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Sigh. Here we go again

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

It's the OP's own words, 'bored gamers like us'. Yes, people who used to enjoy themepark MMO's but are now unable to enjoy that type of gameplay anymore I consider to have themselves burnt out on that type of gameplay, they've become jaded, bored, tired.

And yes, a large portion of those MMO gamers that are constantly craving for something new and innovative are exactly like that: they used to enjoy certain MMO gameplay, after playing it thousands of hours they have lost the ability to enjoy that type of gameplay. That doesn't mean that that type of gameplay isn't good anymore, after all, they've enjoyed it for years and thousands of hours. It's just that they themselves have changed, so that for them it just doesn't work anymore.

They are the ones that have changed, so that gameplay styles that used to be perfectly acceptable and immensely enjoyable for them before, now isn't anymore. However, not all MMO gamers have become burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay like them, others can still enjoy it immensely.

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

Yo maverick how much you want to bet that these same people are the ones who will complain when those other games come out? i feel bad for them, i really do because they can't find a game they "like."

Amen. Anymore I wonder why they even come to sites like this since they most likely dont find any type of game enjoyable. The only thing I keep coming up with is that they have no other action left to take other than to try to make everyone else as unhappy as they are and to bring their issues here.

dubyahite · November 2011

Originally posted by Guileplayer

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.

Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.

Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

Good post. Imo guild wars 2 looks like shit. and i think it will be the biggest let down in video game history. But you don't see me go over to GW 2 boards and create a topic lol.

This a thousand times! I have very little interest in GW2 for various reasons which I won't go into but I have never once gone over to their boards and started huffing and puffing about how terrible the game is.

<----Again....GW2 forums are that way.

Vesavius · November 2011

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

Because I don't need your approval on where I post, and no where in the forum rules does it state that you have to be in love with a game to post on it's forum.

I enjoy talking about games, both good and bad. Why do you think we should devote 100% of our energies to uncritically praising a single game?

And... why so mad?

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

There you go again... grouping, lableing and dismissing.

Anything to stop actual recognition that critical posters are all coming from a different place and might, just might, a valid point of view and that the game isn't perfect.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't the issue and the game itself is. Just a thought.

UrzaElent · November 2011

Originally posted by Guileplayer

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.

Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.

Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

Good post. Imo guild wars 2 looks like shit. and i think it will be the biggest let down in video game history. But you don't see me go over to GW 2 boards and create a topic lol.

Yea, no joke huh? That never really made any sense to me either. Why post in a games forums if you really hate that game other than to cause a flaming shit storm? I really did my research on GW2 for no other reason than that I am always trying something new and I always want to give it a fair shake. Once I found out that it wasnt my cup of tea I moved on. I didnt spend every waking hour of the day trolololo'ing away in their games forums.

GMan3 · November 2011

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Sigh. Here we go again

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

It's the OP's own words, 'bored gamers like us'. Yes, people who used to enjoy themepark MMO's but are now unable to enjoy that type of gameplay anymore I consider to have themselves burnt out on that type of gameplay, they've become jaded, bored, tired.

And yes, a large portion of those MMO gamers that are constantly craving for something new and innovative are exactly like that: they used to enjoy certain MMO gameplay, after playing it thousands of hours they have lost the ability to enjoy that type of gameplay. That doesn't mean that that type of gameplay isn't good anymore, after all, they've enjoyed it for years and thousands of hours. It's just that they themselves have changed, so that for them it just doesn't work anymore.

They are the ones that have changed, so that gameplay styles that used to be perfectly acceptable and immensely enjoyable for them before, now isn't anymore. However, not all MMO gamers have become burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay like them, others can still enjoy it immensely.

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

Well said. Very Well said Mav.

Vesavius · November 2011

Originally posted by Guileplayer

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Sigh. Here we go again

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much... /snip

Yo maverick how much you want to bet that these same people are the ones who will complain when those other games come out? i feel bad for them, i really do because they can't find a game they "like."

'Yo' Guile, I am playing a themepark game I like currently, and have a lot of love for other themepark games that i simply don't have time for. Not sure really what your feeling bad about... there are plenty of games out there for me.

But... yes, I agree. If GW2 is a bad game when it finally gets here I OFC will be critical about it. I am not so entrenched or unobjective towards any game that I wouldn't be. I supported SWtOR untilI actually spent a month in beta with it.

helliwan · November 2011

Dude what Exactly were you expecting ? I mean yes we are in 2011 but what does that have to with any mmorpg coming out during 2011 and after 2011 ? dude it is not with an all fan attitude that i posted on your thread it just your opinion is flawed in so many ways. You still compare potatoes with oranges and saying that Watchout people dont play SWTOR it is bad.

1st of all i'd love it if people could stop using WOW has their mantle of wisdom and trying to use that title as a way to make their arguments look strong.

Some of us stand behind stunning graphic excellent games content, But WOW in those aspect have non, but actually what they did was having so much colors to attract people eyes, like having them watch a cartoon, and then the wow story the one that is already set in stone and you just have to run from town to town, do quest solo dungeons or have someone carry you in a dungeon then later resolo them by yourself. WoW did his time thats fine, now it is time for other mmorpgs from different companies to rise up and in order for them to rise it is only if some people would stop thinking that everything they do in a e game is similar to wow or the game company copied wow, and just give the game its place his chance to actually give you its secret, but playing to hit the max lvl doesnt actually mean you actually enjoyed the game,

GW2, SWTOR,TERAonline, ARCHAGE, Rift and WOW have all something in common they are all mmorpgs, they follow the same rythm, they are from same Gaming Fruit basket, and they are all ready for you to bite on them, but it is up to you how you gonna bite on them will it be by telling yourself that everything is apple because you've had so many apple juice during your time in WOW or will you take it all back and relearn to accept that other fruits exist and they can taste as good as the Apple of wOw.

blood87 · November 2011

if you have played MMOs a good many years before and like me spend a bit too much time on them i don't think this game is made for you or me.

Same goes for Rift, it is a bit more casual "get your friends in and have some fun" game that like Everquest, WoW etc is a good gateway for people to get in to the genre.

The problem is when you have played enough and know what you like and dislike you are in for a new breed of MMOs, niche games.

Now it happened to me and see it with my little brother that played WoW for several years, he knows more what he wants and since alot of people want different things, the games you should look for are the ones with less subscribers, like i said a niche games.

i also think its the future of MMOs since we get more broader playerbase games that focus on one vision will get more viable in the market.

But i won't lie to you im a sucker and buy all these "big" games in hope that it's "my game", anyone want the drinking cup from my Final Fantasy XIV collection box..... hehe

jethroe · November 2011

I 'm sorry to hear that most people are at the end of one spectrum or the other but for the folks that are bashing TOR vs (insert mmo here). Lets take a look back at these "other mmo's" and have a look see. Most of these older mmo's are not entirly the same game they where when you started playing them no? We are talking about a style of game that evolves as time goes on to its player base. To say that this is what TOR is and this is what its going to be forever and it sucks and yada yada yada is failing to look to the future. What I see when i look at TOR is an amazingly done BW game, and i have played a few BW games, and holds true to the style that id expect from a BW game. Now what I like and you like are totally different things altogeather in most cases. But when a thread comes down to this or that new game vs this or that old game I mean cmon. Evolution is the name of mmo's none of them stay the same way through their life they are constantly evolving and changing just remember a beta test is just that an unfinished product that is being tested so that it can be improved. Now here entger 2 types of people 1. the person who puts forward mindfull info, observations, and improvments to the dev's to help mold the game in the fasion they would like and 2. the person who goes around whining about it and nothing gets done. So to close please think about the games relize before hand that this game is not SET IN STONE and can be changed and will be changing all the time, you can help add to it to make it a more fuller enjoyable game or you can go play somthing else but dev's dont read minds so you will get what the people that put the time into writing dev's and offering advice like.

Talin · November 2011

The OPs main complaint were the graphics of SWTOR; that should be enough to reveal the lack of depth in what they perceive to be a quality game.

Gameplay and immersion > graphics any day of the week for me.

UrzaElent · November 2011

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

Because I don't need your approval on where I post, and no where in the forum rules does it state that you have to be in love with a game to post on it's forum.

I enjoy talking about games, both good and bad. Why do you think we should devote 100% of our energies to uncritically praising a single game?

And... why so mad?

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

There you go again... grouping, lableing and dismissing.

Anything to stop actual recognition that critical posters are all coming from a different place and might, just might, a valid point of view and that the game isn't perfect.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't the issue and the game itself is. Just a thought.

And if and when that game sells millions of copies, breaks records and goes on for many good years then what? What will be the issue then? I could really care less what "critical posters" on this site are saying cause they are nothing more than OPINIONS, not fact. Hey, you might not know this but every gamer doesnt think like you or share you OPINIONS.

While we're at it, alot of these OPINIONS are mostly made by posters that clearly lable themselves as burnt out and jaded so how you can call that grouping, lableing or dismissive when they labled themselves that first is beyond me.

kparton · November 2011

Hmm, you mentioned wow FOURTEEN times in your OP.

LOL

Zillen · November 2011

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen
Please, my above points are valid: you simply need to look at this from an unbiased view. "The customer is always right", IS not a bulletproof concept, but if the potential customer says a game is bad, this is not a good sign. There are only so many starstruck Beta Testers and investigative gamers in the world: casuals are the key to success, and that is economic fact.
Sincerely,
Zillen

Well, considering this game is going to have 2.5 to 3 million units sold at launch AND has been receiving a very positive response from its beta testers, I'd say odds are pretty good that Bioware's formula is going to be pretty successful, despite your contention that something can only be improved upon and refined once (which is bullshit, btw).
That being said, the longevity of this game will be determined on what Bioware does post launch.

Never said that a formula or strategy couldn't be refined more than once. Did you see me write that? Of course you didn't. It wasn't there.
I think we can all agree, though, that there is a reason that WoW is losing subscribers, and that Titan is being developed, and that MMOs are emerging that are beginning to take on semblances of originality (if such things exist in this industry anymore). It is because even Blizzard is recognising that its marketing equation, however intricate and regularly-renovated, cannot last indefinitely.
The World of Warcraft Business Plan IS a business plan, and like an oil well that was once a vast source of wealth, this flow is beginning to stem. EA, despite Bioware's involvement, IS ultimately EA Games - it is in charge, and it is after some serious profit to outweigh its production costs. Bioware may be known for its creativity, but it's EA-Bioware now: it ultimately isn't the one steering, and if you believe that this game will sacrifice profit for the sake of creativity, than you are sorely mistaken.
I never said it could not be innovated upon multiple times. But the spell that WoW has blanketed the industry in...is finally...out of mana.
PS: Love how you only linked my conclusion, instead of drawing attention to my overall case.

And ArenaNet is owned by NCsoft, and guess what, I'd trust EA any day of the week over NCsoft. Oh and btw, we all know just how innovative and creative those south korean games are. Gezz, ever wonder why all those GW xpacs looked just like the rest of the stuff coming out of Korea. Just look at who owns the company their business plan.
Since GW2 is the only thing out there right now that can remotely compete with SWTOR, and that in and of itself is just a pipe dream, I wouldnt be so fast to point out which devs work for this company or that cause NCsoft/ArenaNet has nothing on EA, Bioware or Blizzard. Maybe if and when they can actually put together a game that doesnt fade away to the fringes just as soon as it is released they can say they can compete with the real movers of the industry.
As for your comment about WoWs spell finally slowing down, better to slow down after 6 years at the summit than to spend that same amount of time still dreaming about even seeing the mountain.

Note: This post goes out to my two repliers, however I will utilise the quote of the first.
Firstly, and to the first replier,
I would say that the primary reason for NCSoft's lesser place in the market would be for the precise reasons that I am interpreting in your reply: gamers from Western culture simply are less comfortable in their reception of games in Asia. However, I would like to point out that my main criticisms of SW:TOR revolve around the way it has been promoted, and the game's use of what I consider to be severely-aged concepts, NOT THOSE BEHIND ITS CREATION so much.
I once again refer to the Skinner Box experiment - please google it. This science, will made by an intelligent and respectful man, is the core concept behind the addictive and grind-happy nature of MMOs today. It is the master-equation that WoW built its subscriber numbers on, and it's stagnancy is becoming apparent.
Please do not make this into an argument about the designers, developers and funders of these games - I have great respect for those at Blizzard, Bioware and NCSoft equally. It is the marketing techniques and concepts they are basing their game's on that I dislike.
Which lead's me neatly onto the second replier: I apologise. I probably did word that a bit confusingly - it happens with long forum posts of mine. Just to clarify - I am not predicting the failure of SW:TOR, or the success of GW2. For all I know, Guild Wars 2 could become the bomb of the year, and all that SW:TOR has to offer may not be completely apparent to me until I HAVE played it. However, my concerns lie exclusively with the abuse of World of Warcraft's success path.
Bioware's founders have specifically stated the company's intent to keep true to the "WoW rules" which Blizzard built its blockbuster on, and my complaints revolve solely around the overuse of the WoW Equation. I do believe that good ideas can be innovated upon and refined far beyond their original form, and multiple times.
However, I have no desire to see companies and developers continuing to utilise an aged, outdated and addiction-rewarding strategy as the core concept of their products. I believe we have the technology and resources to make something more innovative - we just need to break out of a purely economic reward-over-risk mindset.
I find it quite funny - that is, the amount of people who complain that WoW clones are rampant, and that no games provide new gameplay in this industry. Innovation will not happen until we close our wallets, take a good hard think and purge the unnecessary concepts of yesteryears out of our systems.
I hear trolls? I say: why are you paying the people you claim to despise?

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.
Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.
Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

Jesus Christ, mate. Calm the fuck down.

Let's just settle this: you don't give a shit about other people's opinions or mine? That's great, because if that's your attitude on an online forum, then I don't care about yours either.

MY BEEF (not that you asked of course, or failed to mention a single constructive feedback point outside "all innovation is bullshit and every game that says it does so is lying") is with people like you. People that make no attempt to actually deconstruct and evaluate other people's rational views with an at least partially agenda-free thought process. In your entire post, you have red-flagged the troll alert so many times - it is so fucking hypocritical.

1. You said I should get a life. So original.

2. You made it out like I was a fanboy, and responded to some obscure emotional rant of mine that didn't happen. "Deal with it and move on? Jaded and unhappy people?" What context are you placing my words in?

3. You did not make one single point as to why you liked SW:TOR or why innovation is false in the MMO Industry. You simply raged at me and "people like me" and posted the name of a Russian Physiologist which basically looks at the same concept that I mentioned before. And I never said that you didn't already know about Skinner's Box. You do? Really? Do you want a medal or something? Good for you! Let's assume there are people out there who don't, for a change.

I never said that Guild Wars 2 would be innovative or creative, and I never once mentioned TERA or Archage in my posts. I said that some MMOs emerging recently have the potential to stimulate new creativity in the industry. Now stop bloody posting nonsensical rants on forums - if you're going to share your opinions as if you know what you're talking about, please back it up with valuable information.

Sincerely,
Zillen

Distopia · November 2011

Sorry i missed the memo that it was time to argue over opinions again. Looks like it's time to find something else to read about. Live and let live peeps....

MMO.Maverick · November 2011

Originally posted by vesavius

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

Because I don't need your approval on where I post, and no where in the forum rules does it state that you have to be in love with a game to post on it's forum.

I enjoy talking about games, both good and bad. Why do you think we should devote 100% of our energies to uncritically praising a single game?

I just don't get people like you, who spend most of their posts on games they dislike instead of talking about games they like. There's a lot of games and MMO's I dislike or am indifferent about, but when I do I am not one of those people who constantly visits forums and threads of TERA, DCUO, WAR etc to post about how the game is so bad and that I don't like it and so on and so on. That's why I can't figure out people who are like that, it almost seems to be that they like trashtalking and bashing games they dislike or are meh about more than that they like talking about games they enjoy or are interested and passionate about. Sort of a boredom relieve, talking about the games they love is less exciting and fun than trashtalking the games they dislike, a lighter version of the emotion that motivates trolls, namely the excitement of the conflict.

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

There you go again... grouping, lableing and dismissing.

Anything to stop actual recognition that critical posters are all coming from a different place and might, just might, a valid point of view and that the game isn't perfect.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't the issue and the game itself is. Just a thought.

Shrug. I said 'a lot of', I didn't say all, so if you consider that grouping and labeling, be my guest. It applies to the OP, and it applies to a lot of the thempark critics, heck, a lot of them posted it themselves in their own words the exact thing I was saying about them. So if a number of those people are saying it about themselves how they've become burnt out on stuff or are unable to enjoy certain MMO's or gameplay aspects anymore where in the past they used to, then why can't I say it as well? It's certainly one of the common themes among jaded, burnt out MMO gamers, most of them didn't hate/dislike certain themepark MMO gameplay from the beginning, nope, that happened after years of playing them.

If you are unable to understand that, well, that's your issue then.

And as for your last sentence, maybe, just maybe it is indeed themselves that are the issue and not the game. Just a thought.

You might not enjoy SWTOR and hope that it fails, but that doesn't mean that your wish/hope/viewpoint is representative for all of the MMO playerbase or the majority of it.

Well, we'll only find out after launch now, will we? If a large portion of gamers enjoys the game enough to stick around, then that's an obvious token that it offers gameplay that is enjoyable and fun to that majority of MMO gamers even if jaded, burnt out MMO gamers aren't able to enjoy themselves anymore with that style of gameplay.

In itself it wouldn't be an odd conclusion, after all the vast majority of MMO gamers are still playing themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years after years, which says enough about people enjoying that type of gameplay.

dubyahite · November 2011

Originally posted by kparton
Hmm, you mentioned wow FOURTEEN times in your OP.

LOL

Good catch! HAHA!

So many people have such a complex about WoW. Its the weirdest thing. I left wow after BC, came back in WotLK for a bit, didn't like what I saw and left again. Here's the thing though, I HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK.

People that don't like WoW seriously need to get over it. It has no bearing on your life. Let go.

UrzaElent · November 2011

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by Zillen

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zillen

Please, my above points are valid: you simply need to look at this from an unbiased view. "The customer is always right", IS not a bulletproof concept, but if the potential customer says a game is bad, this is not a good sign. There are only so many starstruck Beta Testers and investigative gamers in the world: casuals are the key to success, and that is economic fact.

Sincerely,

Zillen

Well, considering this game is going to have 2.5 to 3 million units sold at launch AND has been receiving a very positive response from its beta testers, I'd say odds are pretty good that Bioware's formula is going to be pretty successful, despite your contention that something can only be improved upon and refined once (which is bullshit, btw).

That being said, the longevity of this game will be determined on what Bioware does post launch.

Never said that a formula or strategy couldn't be refined more than once. Did you see me write that? Of course you didn't. It wasn't there.

I think we can all agree, though, that there is a reason that WoW is losing subscribers, and that Titan is being developed, and that MMOs are emerging that are beginning to take on semblances of originality (if such things exist in this industry anymore). It is because even Blizzard is recognising that its marketing equation, however intricate and regularly-renovated, cannot last indefinitely.

The World of Warcraft Business Plan IS a business plan, and like an oil well that was once a vast source of wealth, this flow is beginning to stem. EA, despite Bioware's involvement, IS ultimately EA Games - it is in charge, and it is after some serious profit to outweigh its production costs. Bioware may be known for its creativity, but it's EA-Bioware now: it ultimately isn't the one steering, and if you believe that this game will sacrifice profit for the sake of creativity, than you are sorely mistaken.

I never said it could not be innovated upon multiple times. But the spell that WoW has blanketed the industry in...is finally...out of mana.

PS: Love how you only linked my conclusion, instead of drawing attention to my overall case.

And ArenaNet is owned by NCsoft, and guess what, I'd trust EA any day of the week over NCsoft. Oh and btw, we all know just how innovative and creative those south korean games are. Gezz, ever wonder why all those GW xpacs looked just like the rest of the stuff coming out of Korea. Just look at who owns the company their business plan.

Since GW2 is the only thing out there right now that can remotely compete with SWTOR, and that in and of itself is just a pipe dream, I wouldnt be so fast to point out which devs work for this company or that cause NCsoft/ArenaNet has nothing on EA, Bioware or Blizzard. Maybe if and when they can actually put together a game that doesnt fade away to the fringes just as soon as it is released they can say they can compete with the real movers of the industry.

As for your comment about WoWs spell finally slowing down, better to slow down after 6 years at the summit than to spend that same amount of time still dreaming about even seeing the mountain.

Note: This post goes out to my two repliers, however I will utilise the quote of the first.

Firstly, and to the first replier,

I would say that the primary reason for NCSoft's lesser place in the market would be for the precise reasons that I am interpreting in your reply: gamers from Western culture simply are less comfortable in their reception of games in Asia. However, I would like to point out that my main criticisms of SW:TOR revolve around the way it has been promoted, and the game's use of what I consider to be severely-aged concepts, NOT THOSE BEHIND ITS CREATION so much.

I once again refer to the Skinner Box experiment - please google it. This science, will made by an intelligent and respectful man, is the core concept behind the addictive and grind-happy nature of MMOs today. It is the master-equation that WoW built its subscriber numbers on, and it's stagnancy is becoming apparent.

Please do not make this into an argument about the designers, developers and funders of these games - I have great respect for those at Blizzard, Bioware and NCSoft equally. It is the marketing techniques and concepts they are basing their game's on that I dislike.

Which lead's me neatly onto the second replier: I apologise. I probably did word that a bit confusingly - it happens with long forum posts of mine. Just to clarify - I am not predicting the failure of SW:TOR, or the success of GW2. For all I know, Guild Wars 2 could become the bomb of the year, and all that SW:TOR has to offer may not be completely apparent to me until I HAVE played it. However, my concerns lie exclusively with the abuse of World of Warcraft's success path.

Bioware's founders have specifically stated the company's intent to keep true to the "WoW rules" which Blizzard built its blockbuster on, and my complaints revolve solely around the overuse of the WoW Equation. I do believe that good ideas can be innovated upon and refined far beyond their original form, and multiple times.

However, I have no desire to see companies and developers continuing to utilise an aged, outdated and addiction-rewarding strategy as the core concept of their products. I believe we have the technology and resources to make something more innovative - we just need to break out of a purely economic reward-over-risk mindset.

I find it quite funny - that is, the amount of people who complain that WoW clones are rampant, and that no games provide new gameplay in this industry. Innovation will not happen until we close our wallets, take a good hard think and purge the unnecessary concepts of yesteryears out of our systems.

I hear trolls? I say: why are you paying the people you claim to despise?

First of all, I dont have to google about skinners box, I already know all about it. Liked how you thought I would have to google it to know what it was. Here's one for you though, try Pavlov's dogs. See, I already know what I am getting with SWTOR. Why? Cause Bioware has been pretty clear cut about what their game is and where they hope to take it. And that is exactly what I am looking for. Unlike you and many other people on this site, I could really care less what you like or dont like. Every gamer has the right to play what and how they choose too. You dont care for SWTOR? Thats just fine. I cant stand GW2. Dont like it? Oh freaking well. Deal with it and move on. You and the other jaded and unhappy guys out here that have to try and shove your OPINIONS around like they are fact and then try to force them onto others really need to get a life though.

Getting back to Pavlov now. Here's my biggest beef with GW2, Archage, Tera and whatever other game most people rant about being soooooo much more innovative and creative than SWTOR as loud as they can whenever someone even dares to mention SWTOR. There's NOTHING to back it up. N O T H I N G. None of those games are any more or less innovative than SWTOR. The key difference is every single time you read about them, and people like you make these sham post, thats exactly what you get, "innovative" and "creative". Repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat it enough and sooner or later some people will automatically connect one with the other even when there is nothing there.

Saddly, for alot of the people on this site thats all thats needed. Post enough SWTOR hating trash, show a little biased and clearly over hyped video here or review there along with the words "innovative" and "creative" and just like Pavlov's dogs they'll start drooling even when there is nothing there to drool over.

Jesus Christ, mate. Calm the fuck down.

Let's just settle this: you don't give a shit about other people's opinions or mine? That's great, because if that's your attitude on an online forum, then I don't care about yours either.

MY BEEF (not that you asked of course, or failed to mention a single constructive feedback point outside "all innovation is bullshit and every game that says it does so is lying") is with people like you. People that make no attempt to actually deconstruct and evaluate other people's rational views with an at least partially agenda-free thought process. In your entire post, you have red-flagged the troll alert so many times - it is so fucking hypocritical.

1. You said I should get a life. So original.

2. You made it out like I was a fanboy, and responded to some obscure emotional rant of mine that didn't happen. "Deal with it and move on? Jaded and unhappy people?" What context are you placing my words in?

3. You did not make one single point as to why you liked SW:TOR or why innovation is false in the MMO Industry. You simply raged at me and "people like me" and posted the name of a Russian Physiologist which basically looks at the same concept that I mentioned before. And I never said that you didn't already know about Skinner's Box. You do? Really? Do you want a medal or something? Good for you! Let's assume there are people out there who don't, for a change.

I never said that Guild Wars 2 would be innovative or creative, and I never once mentioned TERA or Archage in my posts. I said that some MMOs emerging recently have the potential to stimulate new creativity in the industry. Now stop bloody posting nonsensical rants on forums - if you're going to share your opinions as if you know what you're talking about, please back it up with valuable information.

Sincerely,

Zillen

LMAO, wow, I was being civil but if you really want to go down this road thats fine by me "mate".

First of all if anyone is ranting here its you pal, so why dont you just take you own damn advice and chill out or stfu, ok?

And yea, guess what, you seem like most of the little shits on this site that once they find someone they cant force their opinions on in a civil debate they start going off the wall about how everyone ELSE needs to chill out when they, themselves are the ones going all Norman Bates on the forums.

At least you got something partly right though. I dont give a flying fuck about your opinions or anyone elses. WHY? Cause un like you I can fucking realize that everyone has the right to their own opinions, thats just peachy with me, just not the right to try to shove it down someone elses throat.

So why dont you take my advice and get a life cause your whole "I'm a online badass that is gonna "settle" this forum issue" with some random guy you wouldnt even know if I walked right by your fail ass on the street thing is low even for your type.

Sincerely,

Urza Elent

Vesavius · November 2011

Originally posted by UrzaElent

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by vesavius

So your dismissing any that are in any way dissatified with derivative and unimaginative game design on any level 'burn outs'?

Thats a handy way to rationalise every negative view on the game I guess... stops you from actually having to consider their views on any deeper level at least.

I personally don't think not liking aspects of this game automatically labels a poster as a 'burn out'. I personally think that they can still be deep in love with themeparks as a concept and just find SWtOR an ugly and boring game.

Why the hell are you even on these forums, if you dislike SWTOR so much? Don't you have better things to do with your time, like for example spend it on games you actually DO like? Man, some people...

Because I don't need your approval on where I post, and no where in the forum rules does it state that you have to be in love with a game to post on it's forum.

I enjoy talking about games, both good and bad. Why do you think we should devote 100% of our energies to uncritically praising a single game?

And... why so mad?

In short, a lot of opinions of the burnt out, jaded group doesn't say anything about the execution of the gameplay features, it can still be extremely well done for themepark gameplay, but more about their current stance towards such gameplay and their lack of being able to enjoy it anymore.

There you go again... grouping, lableing and dismissing.

Anything to stop actual recognition that critical posters are all coming from a different place and might, just might, a valid point of view and that the game isn't perfect.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't the issue and the game itself is. Just a thought.

And if and when that game sells millions of copies, breaks records and goes on for many good years then what? What will be the issue then?

Eh? What does that have to do with what is being said here?

Some people will love SWtOR, no doubt, and it WILL do very well for around 4-6 months (IMO)... but what does that have to do with my point about not dismising other posters as 'burn outs' just because they are critical of elements of this particular game?

I could really care less what "critical posters" on this site are saying cause they are nothing more than OPINIONS, not fact.

OK, noted.

{mod edit}

While we're at it, alot of these OPINIONS are mostly made by posters that clearly lable themselves as burnt out and jaded so how you can call that grouping, lableing or dismissive when they labled themselves that first is beyond me.

Because you and others using this 'burnt out' blanket argument are including gamers who DON'T put themselves in that category under your generalised group labels and you and others are using that label to dismiss anyone out of hand that has a negative view on the game.

{mod edit}

diegoe · November 2011

The tires really hear some criticism of the TOR, these people are the same asnever could read a book or watch a whole movie, uff would say of a book has many pages and is on track, I can skip all the chapters and read the latest saberlpages to the end, these criticisms are absurd claim "but if the paper has more than a thousand years, that is outdated, there is no novelty," the important thing inthe game and reading the content and enjoy it.

jethroe · November 2011

Well they will DIP you (disinformation protocal) they will say reasuring words like inovative and creative. If you hear these words perticularly in repetition it means they are going to kill you.

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