Hmm, I think that's stretching the SW trinity a little, but interesting points. Frankly, most fantasy/sci-fi epics have their tanks and healers and damage dealers. Look at Gimli and Legolas... they can fit ideally into two of those spots.
Do you say that because Legolas can't defend himself or because Gimli isn't capable of dishing out death quite handily? Because neither is true.
There's no fantasy OR sci-fi epic that I've ever seen or heard of that has the Holy Trinity dynamic.
A tank is a tank regardless if he has a healer with him or not. A tank's overarching purpose is to draw attention to himself in order to ensure the safety of his comrades. A tank is able to protect his allies by resisting and defending the attacks from his enemies. Tell me, did Qui-Gon Jinn draw attention to himself in order to ensure his friends' safety? Yes. Did Qui-Gon Jinn protect his friends by resisting and defending the attacks from Darth Maul? Yes. Therefore, Qui-Gon Jinn acted as a tank.
Lightsaber dueling has multiple forms to accomodate one's situation. For example, if a Jedi is trying to protect someone, they will use Form III, Soresu, which focuses on all out defense to survive. This form represents a tank in MMORPG's. You say that if Qui-Gon were a tank, then he shouldn't be able to deal a lot of damage to his opponents, but you forget that: A.) Qui-Gon is a character of heroic status, therefore his power will be elevated compared to the rest. B.) Qui-Gon can choose to switch forms, depending on the situation he is facing.
You know what's completely unrealistic in terms of fantasy? Not being able to directly heal an ally or not being able to taunt an enemy without getting close to him.
I didn't say Gimli couldn't deal damage as well as draw attention to himself, he actually fits both roles, and examples can be found throughout the movies. Stealth has somewhat of a point there, but again, this is fantasy, it's written this way on purpose, it's called variety of characters. Of course Legolas can defend himself, but the thing is, he's known as a ranged damage dealer if you're to use MMO lingo. The fact that they can do both of those things makes GW2's system even more appealing (where characters can also heal), because so can any profession in the game. TOR can't say the same, which is why I won't be trying it until it's free to play. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a specific class dynamic anymore.
Considering each class story has 200 hours and there are a total of 8 stories, you would need to play 1600 hours before completing all the class stories in the game. This is without considering any updates that the game will most definitely have. Then you have PvP, repeatable content (Operations, generic quests, and Flashpoints), mini-games, crew skills, and your companions' stories, and I don't think you will have to worry about sitting around doing nothing.
I'm really not sure that in that 200 hours, you're counting dialog that people will start to skip because it's long winded instructions on menial tasks, but if it's actual story that makes your character more interesting, that's a good amount of time, I'll grant you that.
Take away the voice acting and "choices" that every class experiences from one NPC, and you'll come up with a lot fewer hours.
idk, the whole I can play every role movment bores me. where every class can fit every role, and everything is aoe skills that we spam using no real awarness since its all aoe and does the work for you.
like rift, you just sit there most of the time in a healer role spamming dmg abilities that also aoe heal. or dcuo where your heals auto heal the lowest member so you dont have to react .
You will be sought out because of your skill, not because you picked "paladin" and started cramming points into a defense tree. You like what you like, I like change.
As for healers reacting, stepping out of the fire and watching red bars go up and down is the most dumbed down form of reaction there is in MMOs. Even tanks work harder. And yes, I've been both.
I like change aswell but some change isnt better becouse its change. Gw2 is pretty much take care of yourself and aoe skills from what i gather. although i havent played it and the actual game information is lacking greatly. but the novalty of mindless aoe skills wears off pretty fast
Take away the voice acting and "choices" that every class experiences from one NPC, and you'll come up with a lot fewer hours.
Okay, but why would you? I could see some getting annoyed by the VO's and dialogue, but I personally felt it made the experience a lot more immersive and never did I skip one line.
Well personally I've been reading about the games, watching videos and even from the skill videos released over the past year, you don't see many of these so called super AOEs. For one thing, they're not going to heal everyone for large amounts and most of the skills I've seen are not ground target abilities. Some of them are, and I like the concept, but I doubt they're as powerful as single target skills or cooperation (and knowing ANet's focus on balance, probably can't be spammed). Sure, we don't know for sure until we get a copy in our hands, but the game is not just an AOE fest. Neither is TOR for that matter. As for the rest, I don't feel that having to heal myself instead of relying on someone else is really a bad thing, but it'll take some adjustment.
Take away the voice acting and "choices" that every class experiences from one NPC, and you'll come up with a lot fewer hours.
Okay, but why would you? I could see some getting annoyed by the VO's and dialogue, but I personally felt it made the experience a lot more immersive and never did I skip one line.
Oh I wouldn't skip them the first time through, or the first couple times maybe, but I meant after you've experienced certain planets a number of times. I enjoy voice acting so I might listen, but there will be times you're likely going to say (like I already am in Skyrim on my third character) "blah blah yeah let's just get the quest and go, I know what you're going to say already". It's up to the individual obviously.
It's not a matter of impatience or not caring about the story, but a story is never as new or exciting as the first time.
Oh I wouldn't skip them the first time through, or the first couple times maybe, but I meant after you've experienced certain planets a number of times. I enjoy voice acting so I might listen, but there will be times you're going to say (like I already am in Skyrim on my third character) "blah blah yeah let's just get the quest and go, I know what you're going to say already".
It's not a matter of impatience or not caring about the story, but a story is never as new or exciting as the first time.
But they're unique 200 hours to each class. Different class stories don't share the same class quests.
i'm not saying that its bad but A net is using the terms gamebreaking, inovating, dynamic and have clearly said that they wanted to focus less on looking at health bars and more time watching the fight (which is a good thing) but most of the world boss vids i see are very similar to rift in which everyone is essentially solo hitting the thing at the same time while just healing anyone who gets close and no real tactical skill, similar to rifts dynamic events, lol dynamic.
TOR can't say the same, which is why I won't be trying it until it's free to play.
Honestly? Enjoy waiting a couple of years if (and that's one big IF) it goes F2P at all.
I can wait. I don't feel that I'm missing anything. There will be plenty of other games that don't nickel and dime me to hold my attention. DC and Sony are huge names, but did their game even last a year before it introduced a F2P model (a model, which, by the way is not necessarily a bad thing and can be quite profitable).
Oh I wouldn't skip them the first time through, or the first couple times maybe, but I meant after you've experienced certain planets a number of times. I enjoy voice acting so I might listen, but there will be times you're going to say (like I already am in Skyrim on my third character) "blah blah yeah let's just get the quest and go, I know what you're going to say already".
It's not a matter of impatience or not caring about the story, but a story is never as new or exciting as the first time.
But they're unique 200 hours to each class. Different class stories don't share the same class quests.
Ok, so the 200 hours are "class" quests and not a big net containing all the VO work for each playthrough. Was just making sure since I didn't play the beta. Thanks.
I can wait. I don't feel that I'm missing anything. There will be plenty of other games that don't nickel and dime me to hold my attention. DC and Sony are huge names, but did their game even last a year before it introduced a F2P model (a model, which, by the way is not necessarily a bad thing and can be quite profitable).
Huge names that showed no signs whatsoever that they would come up with a successful game.
i'm not saying that its bad but A net is using the terms gamebreaking, inovating, dynamic and have clearly said that they wanted to focus less on looking at health bars and more time watching the fight (which is a good thing) but most of the world boss vids i see are very similar to rift in which everyone is essentially solo hitting the thing at the same time while just healing anyone who gets close and no real tactical skill, similar to rifts dynamic events, lol dynamic.
I'm not an avid follower, but Guild Wars 2 combat looks more active than most other MMO's and with cross-profession combos, I could see organized groups being miles ahead in terms of efficiency.
I can wait. I don't feel that I'm missing anything. There will be plenty of other games that don't nickel and dime me to hold my attention. DC and Sony are huge names, but did their game even last a year before it introduced a F2P model (a model, which, by the way is not necessarily a bad thing and can be quite profitable).
Huge names that showed no signs whatsoever that they would come up with a successful game.
I didn't actually think that in the time I played it, DCUO was a terrible game. In fact, I expected to think it was lame. But it's more twitch than I think a lot of MMO players were ready to accept.. plus like Star Wars, it may not attract a lot of fans that don't care about the IP.
Sony just has kind of a record for uh... yeah... screwing up a little. Then again, like I said, the game is reportedly doing better than it was when it was still on a sub plan. I even paid for a month to get extra character slots with no intention of paying out every month, and I'm sure some other people followed suit.
No problem. The original article placed graphics on number 1, which is the most stupid thing you can imagine for any game (except crysis 2 or maybe bf3). You can't take that seriously from a self-proclaimed pvp player.
A tank is a tank regardless if he has a healer with him or not. A tank's overarching purpose is to draw attention to himself in order to ensure the safety of his comrades. A tank is able to protect his allies by resisting and defending the attacks from his enemies. Tell me, did Qui-Gon Jinn draw attention to himself in order to ensure his friends' safety? Yes. Did Qui-Gon Jinn protect his friends by resisting and defending the attacks from Darth Maul? Yes. Therefore, Qui-Gon Jinn acted as a tank.
Lightsaber dueling has multiple forms to accomodate one's situation. For example, if a Jedi is trying to protect someone, they will use Form III, Soresu, which focuses on all out defense to survive. This form represents a tank in MMORPG's. You say that if Qui-Gon were a tank, then he shouldn't be able to deal a lot of damage to his opponents, but you forget that: A.) Qui-Gon is a character of heroic status, therefore his power will be elevated compared to the rest. B.) Qui-Gon can choose to switch forms, depending on the situation he is facing.
You know what's completely unrealistic in terms of fantasy? Not being able to directly heal an ally or not being able to taunt an enemy without getting close to him.
No, you are confusing things.
Tanking in the Holy Trinity has very specific mechanics and directly relates to the other roles. When a tank solos content, it isn't fair to say he's acting as a tank, because he isn't. He's doing the damage and everything else as well. Tanking requires keeping bad guys off allies, true, but it also requires allies that can do something in the combat (damage or healing) and can't defend themselves. This means the tank has to be tremendously tougher than the other members of the party, but those members have to be able to contribute to the combat in a meaningful way.
Was Qui-Gon tanking? Not in a Holy Trinity sense, and any other sense is besides the point. (Jedi are tanks in an older sense in that they can stop a lot of damage, deal a lot of damage, have magic and generally can do everything) It is a cop-op to toss that hero card out. Stormtroopers can take and deal damage (both to a lesser degreee of course). It's not some special thing because Qui-Gon is a hero. And of course, in these games, all PCs are heroes, so that really doesn't get you anywhere.
By trying to jam everything into a Holy Trinity lens, you incorrectly label and understand what is going on. Qui-Gon running a delaying action and interference becomes him just "tanking", and it loses that actual context and complexities of what is going on, what he is doing, and why he is doing it. It also quickly runs into problems when you try to use that lens everywhere. When he fought Maul, was he tanking? DPSing? Healing? Which role? The answer is NONE, because that role division doesn't make any dang sense in Star Wars.
It's like looking at ancient warefare and trying to jam things into a tank-healer-dps perspective. But you don't understand a damn thing about it if you call a phalanx the tank, archers DPS, and Cavalry DPS too. You make the same mistake using that in Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or any other work of fiction outside of MMOs, because remotely realistic combat doesn't divide roles into tanks, healers, and DPS on the battlefield. The Holy Trinity has both unrealistic (in terms of reality and fictional reality) specializations and unrealistic degree of specialization (healers shooting bullets that couldn't hurt paper bag).
Oh and I guess you are ignoring Form II for defense in melee combat, particular against other Lightsaber users? Form III was focused against blasters. And if you only have Tank-Healer-DPS roles, then why are there 7 Lightsaber forms? Shouldn't there only be 3? Of course, you are trying to jam a complex toolbox of forms into a narrowminded, simplistic, and unrealistic system that has 3 bizarre combat roles.
Han, Luke, Leia, Chewbacca...who's the healer? Who's the DPS? Whos' the tank? NO ONE. Because that's not how Star Wars works. If you want to toss "well, they're heroes" card in, then please point me to anyone who ever healed over and over in the middle of a combat in any Star Wars book or movie. Please point me to someone who's only job was tanking (rather than taking a defensive action in a particular short span of time because that was a tactically sound choice right then and there as opposed to that being their sole focus in combat all the time). These people don't exist because the Holy Trinity doesn't work in Star Wars.
Originally posted by Eir_S
I didn't say Gimli couldn't deal damage as well as draw attention to himself, he actually fits both roles, and examples can be found throughout the movies. Stealth has somewhat of a point there, but again, this is fantasy, it's written this way on purpose, it's called variety of characters. Of course Legolas can defend himself, but the thing is, he's known as a ranged damage dealer if you're to use MMO lingo. The fact that they can do both of those things makes GW2's system even more appealing (where characters can also heal), because so can any profession in the game. TOR can't say the same, which is why I won't be trying it until it's free to play. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a specific class dynamic anymore.
You said he was a tank. That's saying he can't deal damage if you know anything about the Holy Trinity. You said Legolas was a DPS, that's saying he can't defend himself. That's how it works in the Holy Trinity. It's NOT how it works in fantasy, it's not how it works in the Lord of the Rings. If they were as you say, they couldn't even begin to have a contest on kills, since Gimli would be stuck dealing a small fraction of the damage that Legolas does. Yet that isn't the case.
And where's the healer? If the Lord of the Rings follows the Holy Trinity, there has to be a healer on the battlefield doing healing in combat. There is none. Nor is there any such thing in combat in Star Wars. So it is absurd to use a combat systme where that's the focus of the job for one person in every four.
Again, you are trying to use a classification system for the Lord of the Rings that just doesn't work. It doesn't work historically either. Or are you going to describe modern or ancient warfare through the same, misguided lens? Is the Cavalry the healers then, the archers? In modern warfare does the combat medic spam magic heals and use a paintball gun? Or is his job just to stabalize injuries so the injuried can live and moved off the battlefield?
And let's be clear, this isn't "MMO" lingo you are using. You're using Holy Trinity lingo. There's a difference, and it is lingo that simply won't work in GW2 as it doesn't work in ANY Fantasy or Sci-Fi movie or novel.
First of all, I specified in the first post I made about this that they could both fit into 2 categories, meaning tank and damage. I never said Gimli was a tank nor that Legolas couldn't defend himself. That's why I specified 2 categories. I wasn't talking about the entire trinity, just aspects of it that famous characters could be slotted into if one were to think about it hard enough. However, I've read fantasy novels where there are mages or shamans or some other kind of light armor wearing character that heals wounds or uses magic to keep their party members safe... while there's usually a big dude with an axe and some kind of quick thief or archer. I mean, it's pretty basic fantasy. I can't remember the name of the series my brother told me about a long time ago, but it was very much like that. The healer was a "cleric" with a giant mace.
As for the rest pertaining to the military, I think you're addressing the wrong person or you think I'm saying something I'm not. I never said anything about the military, I was talking about predetermined roles from a fantasy author's perspective to make a compelling story based on radically different strengths and weaknesses of their characters.
Healing paintball guns? Yeah, I dunno.
Anyway, I never said I agreed that it should be taken so literally in games. I think it makes them less dymanic by default, GW2 seems to meet somewhere in the middle and I think it'll work fine.
First of all, I specified in the first post I made about this that they could both fit into 2 categories, meaning tank and damage. I never said Gimli was a tank nor that Legolas couldn't defend himself. That's why I specified 2 categories. I wasn't talking about the entire trinity, just aspects of it that famous characters could be slotted into if one were to think about it hard enough. However, I've read fantasy novels where there are mages or shamans or some other kind of light armor wearing character that heals wounds or uses magic to keep their party members safe... while there's usually a big dude with an axe and some kind of quick thief or archer. I mean, it's pretty basic fantasy. I can't remember the name of the series my brother told me about a long time ago, but it was very much like that. The healer was a "cleric" with a giant mace.
As for the rest pertaining to the military, I think you're addressing the wrong person or you think I'm saying something I'm not. I never said anything about the military, I was talking about predetermined roles from a fantasy author's perspective to make a compelling story based on radically different strengths and weaknesses of their characters.
Healing paintball guns? Yeah, I dunno.
Anyway, I never said I agreed that it should be taken so literally in games. I think it makes them less dymanic by default, GW2 seems to meet somewhere in the middle and I think it'll work fine.
Not healing paintball guns. I'm referring to the fact that a gun a healer uses would inexplicably be worse than the same gun a dps uses.
And if they are both tanks and dps at the same time then you aren't in a Holy Trinity system and using HT-glasses is just obscuring what is actually going on and will lead to muddled thinking.
Tell me, in those fantasy novels did the cleric WITH THE BIG MACE just sit and heal IN COMBAT? Or did he patch people up AFTER combat and use the big mace during battles? Because healing outside of combat is not the Holy Trinity.
Similarly, "usually a big dude with an axe and some kind of quick thief or archer" well, that already doesn't sound like it fits the Holy Trinity, now does it? Does the wizard spam heals in combat? No. And where's the tank that can't deal damage? Does the axe guy, archer and thief never get attacked because of aggro control? Is the only thing the thief does is DPS? Your list of characters might be standard, but trying to use a Holy Trinity system to describe them is like fitting square pegs into round holes. It ain't gonna work that well.
My comment on the military is just that this is just as absurd as in real life, because you know, authors try to make combat sound realistic. Describe holy trinity combat to someone that doesn't play MMOs and if they know anything at all about the real thing or read plenty of fantasy books, they'll find it quite absurd if they think about it. A guy that only takes damage and can't deal it? A guy that only deals damage and can't take it? Someone spamming heals in combat and the tank taking near lethal wound after near lethal wound while those heals are spammed? It's like a bad joke. The only thing worse is trying to act like this somehow didn't originate in MMOs, because it certainly didn't exist before them.
Heck, from what I understand not even the WoW books have the Holy Trinity mechanic in them. But I admit I haven't read them so I can't be sure.
Frankly I am sick and tired of people walking around forums with Holy Trinity glasses acting like it is everywhere. It isn't.
The whole discussion isn't about the holy trinity.................................... It's about tanking, and it was also about healing others during combat and how these things relate to the movies period.
"It is really tanking and combat healing that is far from the movies, not to mention the looting, but what is the point?"
The whole discussion isn't about the holy trinity.................................... It's about tanking, and it was also about healing others during combat and how these things relate to the movies period.
"It is really tanking and combat healing that is far from the movies, not to mention the looting, but what is the point?"
GO DRACHOSOR! He is referring to books; many of which have become movies. So he is on topic, and btw last time i checkes tanking AND helaing were part of the holy trinity.
GO DRACHOSOR! He is referring to books; many of which have become movies. So he is on topic, and btw last time i checkes tanking AND helaing were part of the holy trinity.
Um.. No, he's completely off. Just because tanks and healers are part of the trinity doesn't mean they can't exist outside it. This whole discussion began when the poster I quoted above said he could not see how tanking, combat healing, or looting would fit into the movies and so I provided him examples as to why these (with the exception of looting) would be reasonable.
Comments
Do you say that because Legolas can't defend himself or because Gimli isn't capable of dishing out death quite handily? Because neither is true.
There's no fantasy OR sci-fi epic that I've ever seen or heard of that has the Holy Trinity dynamic.
A tank is a tank regardless if he has a healer with him or not. A tank's overarching purpose is to draw attention to himself in order to ensure the safety of his comrades. A tank is able to protect his allies by resisting and defending the attacks from his enemies. Tell me, did Qui-Gon Jinn draw attention to himself in order to ensure his friends' safety? Yes. Did Qui-Gon Jinn protect his friends by resisting and defending the attacks from Darth Maul? Yes. Therefore, Qui-Gon Jinn acted as a tank.
Lightsaber dueling has multiple forms to accomodate one's situation. For example, if a Jedi is trying to protect someone, they will use Form III, Soresu, which focuses on all out defense to survive. This form represents a tank in MMORPG's. You say that if Qui-Gon were a tank, then he shouldn't be able to deal a lot of damage to his opponents, but you forget that: A.) Qui-Gon is a character of heroic status, therefore his power will be elevated compared to the rest. B.) Qui-Gon can choose to switch forms, depending on the situation he is facing.
You know what's completely unrealistic in terms of fantasy? Not being able to directly heal an ally or not being able to taunt an enemy without getting close to him.
I didn't say Gimli couldn't deal damage as well as draw attention to himself, he actually fits both roles, and examples can be found throughout the movies. Stealth has somewhat of a point there, but again, this is fantasy, it's written this way on purpose, it's called variety of characters. Of course Legolas can defend himself, but the thing is, he's known as a ranged damage dealer if you're to use MMO lingo. The fact that they can do both of those things makes GW2's system even more appealing (where characters can also heal), because so can any profession in the game. TOR can't say the same, which is why I won't be trying it until it's free to play. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a specific class dynamic anymore.
I'm really not sure that in that 200 hours, you're counting dialog that people will start to skip because it's long winded instructions on menial tasks, but if it's actual story that makes your character more interesting, that's a good amount of time, I'll grant you that.
Take away the voice acting and "choices" that every class experiences from one NPC, and you'll come up with a lot fewer hours.
idk, the whole I can play every role movment bores me. where every class can fit every role, and everything is aoe skills that we spam using no real awarness since its all aoe and does the work for you.
like rift, you just sit there most of the time in a healer role spamming dmg abilities that also aoe heal. or dcuo where your heals auto heal the lowest member so you dont have to react .
Neither of those examples fits GW2, fyi.
You will be sought out because of your skill, not because you picked "paladin" and started cramming points into a defense tree. You like what you like, I like change.
As for healers reacting, stepping out of the fire and watching red bars go up and down is the most dumbed down form of reaction there is in MMOs. Even tanks work harder. And yes, I've been both.
I like change aswell but some change isnt better becouse its change. Gw2 is pretty much take care of yourself and aoe skills from what i gather. although i havent played it and the actual game information is lacking greatly. but the novalty of mindless aoe skills wears off pretty fast
Okay, but why would you? I could see some getting annoyed by the VO's and dialogue, but I personally felt it made the experience a lot more immersive and never did I skip one line.
Well personally I've been reading about the games, watching videos and even from the skill videos released over the past year, you don't see many of these so called super AOEs. For one thing, they're not going to heal everyone for large amounts and most of the skills I've seen are not ground target abilities. Some of them are, and I like the concept, but I doubt they're as powerful as single target skills or cooperation (and knowing ANet's focus on balance, probably can't be spammed). Sure, we don't know for sure until we get a copy in our hands, but the game is not just an AOE fest. Neither is TOR for that matter. As for the rest, I don't feel that having to heal myself instead of relying on someone else is really a bad thing, but it'll take some adjustment.
Oh I wouldn't skip them the first time through, or the first couple times maybe, but I meant after you've experienced certain planets a number of times. I enjoy voice acting so I might listen, but there will be times you're likely going to say (like I already am in Skyrim on my third character) "blah blah yeah let's just get the quest and go, I know what you're going to say already". It's up to the individual obviously.
It's not a matter of impatience or not caring about the story, but a story is never as new or exciting as the first time.
Honestly? Enjoy waiting a couple of years if (and that's one big IF) it goes F2P at all.
But they're unique 200 hours to each class. Different class stories don't share the same class quests.
i'm not saying that its bad but A net is using the terms gamebreaking, inovating, dynamic and have clearly said that they wanted to focus less on looking at health bars and more time watching the fight (which is a good thing) but most of the world boss vids i see are very similar to rift in which everyone is essentially solo hitting the thing at the same time while just healing anyone who gets close and no real tactical skill, similar to rifts dynamic events, lol dynamic.
I can wait. I don't feel that I'm missing anything. There will be plenty of other games that don't nickel and dime me to hold my attention. DC and Sony are huge names, but did their game even last a year before it introduced a F2P model (a model, which, by the way is not necessarily a bad thing and can be quite profitable).
Ok, so the 200 hours are "class" quests and not a big net containing all the VO work for each playthrough. Was just making sure since I didn't play the beta. Thanks.
Huge names that showed no signs whatsoever that they would come up with a successful game.
I'm not an avid follower, but Guild Wars 2 combat looks more active than most other MMO's and with cross-profession combos, I could see organized groups being miles ahead in terms of efficiency.
I didn't actually think that in the time I played it, DCUO was a terrible game. In fact, I expected to think it was lame. But it's more twitch than I think a lot of MMO players were ready to accept.. plus like Star Wars, it may not attract a lot of fans that don't care about the IP.
Sony just has kind of a record for uh... yeah... screwing up a little. Then again, like I said, the game is reportedly doing better than it was when it was still on a sub plan. I even paid for a month to get extra character slots with no intention of paying out every month, and I'm sure some other people followed suit.
Anyway, GW2 thread. Sorry lol
No, you are confusing things.
Tanking in the Holy Trinity has very specific mechanics and directly relates to the other roles. When a tank solos content, it isn't fair to say he's acting as a tank, because he isn't. He's doing the damage and everything else as well. Tanking requires keeping bad guys off allies, true, but it also requires allies that can do something in the combat (damage or healing) and can't defend themselves. This means the tank has to be tremendously tougher than the other members of the party, but those members have to be able to contribute to the combat in a meaningful way.
Was Qui-Gon tanking? Not in a Holy Trinity sense, and any other sense is besides the point. (Jedi are tanks in an older sense in that they can stop a lot of damage, deal a lot of damage, have magic and generally can do everything) It is a cop-op to toss that hero card out. Stormtroopers can take and deal damage (both to a lesser degreee of course). It's not some special thing because Qui-Gon is a hero. And of course, in these games, all PCs are heroes, so that really doesn't get you anywhere.
By trying to jam everything into a Holy Trinity lens, you incorrectly label and understand what is going on. Qui-Gon running a delaying action and interference becomes him just "tanking", and it loses that actual context and complexities of what is going on, what he is doing, and why he is doing it. It also quickly runs into problems when you try to use that lens everywhere. When he fought Maul, was he tanking? DPSing? Healing? Which role? The answer is NONE, because that role division doesn't make any dang sense in Star Wars.
It's like looking at ancient warefare and trying to jam things into a tank-healer-dps perspective. But you don't understand a damn thing about it if you call a phalanx the tank, archers DPS, and Cavalry DPS too. You make the same mistake using that in Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or any other work of fiction outside of MMOs, because remotely realistic combat doesn't divide roles into tanks, healers, and DPS on the battlefield. The Holy Trinity has both unrealistic (in terms of reality and fictional reality) specializations and unrealistic degree of specialization (healers shooting bullets that couldn't hurt paper bag).
Oh and I guess you are ignoring Form II for defense in melee combat, particular against other Lightsaber users? Form III was focused against blasters. And if you only have Tank-Healer-DPS roles, then why are there 7 Lightsaber forms? Shouldn't there only be 3? Of course, you are trying to jam a complex toolbox of forms into a narrowminded, simplistic, and unrealistic system that has 3 bizarre combat roles.
Han, Luke, Leia, Chewbacca...who's the healer? Who's the DPS? Whos' the tank? NO ONE. Because that's not how Star Wars works. If you want to toss "well, they're heroes" card in, then please point me to anyone who ever healed over and over in the middle of a combat in any Star Wars book or movie. Please point me to someone who's only job was tanking (rather than taking a defensive action in a particular short span of time because that was a tactically sound choice right then and there as opposed to that being their sole focus in combat all the time). These people don't exist because the Holy Trinity doesn't work in Star Wars.
You said he was a tank. That's saying he can't deal damage if you know anything about the Holy Trinity. You said Legolas was a DPS, that's saying he can't defend himself. That's how it works in the Holy Trinity. It's NOT how it works in fantasy, it's not how it works in the Lord of the Rings. If they were as you say, they couldn't even begin to have a contest on kills, since Gimli would be stuck dealing a small fraction of the damage that Legolas does. Yet that isn't the case.
And where's the healer? If the Lord of the Rings follows the Holy Trinity, there has to be a healer on the battlefield doing healing in combat. There is none. Nor is there any such thing in combat in Star Wars. So it is absurd to use a combat systme where that's the focus of the job for one person in every four.
Again, you are trying to use a classification system for the Lord of the Rings that just doesn't work. It doesn't work historically either. Or are you going to describe modern or ancient warfare through the same, misguided lens? Is the Cavalry the healers then, the archers? In modern warfare does the combat medic spam magic heals and use a paintball gun? Or is his job just to stabalize injuries so the injuried can live and moved off the battlefield?
And let's be clear, this isn't "MMO" lingo you are using. You're using Holy Trinity lingo. There's a difference, and it is lingo that simply won't work in GW2 as it doesn't work in ANY Fantasy or Sci-Fi movie or novel.
First of all, I specified in the first post I made about this that they could both fit into 2 categories, meaning tank and damage. I never said Gimli was a tank nor that Legolas couldn't defend himself. That's why I specified 2 categories. I wasn't talking about the entire trinity, just aspects of it that famous characters could be slotted into if one were to think about it hard enough. However, I've read fantasy novels where there are mages or shamans or some other kind of light armor wearing character that heals wounds or uses magic to keep their party members safe... while there's usually a big dude with an axe and some kind of quick thief or archer. I mean, it's pretty basic fantasy. I can't remember the name of the series my brother told me about a long time ago, but it was very much like that. The healer was a "cleric" with a giant mace.
As for the rest pertaining to the military, I think you're addressing the wrong person or you think I'm saying something I'm not. I never said anything about the military, I was talking about predetermined roles from a fantasy author's perspective to make a compelling story based on radically different strengths and weaknesses of their characters.
Healing paintball guns? Yeah, I dunno.
Anyway, I never said I agreed that it should be taken so literally in games. I think it makes them less dymanic by default, GW2 seems to meet somewhere in the middle and I think it'll work fine.
Not healing paintball guns. I'm referring to the fact that a gun a healer uses would inexplicably be worse than the same gun a dps uses.
And if they are both tanks and dps at the same time then you aren't in a Holy Trinity system and using HT-glasses is just obscuring what is actually going on and will lead to muddled thinking.
Tell me, in those fantasy novels did the cleric WITH THE BIG MACE just sit and heal IN COMBAT? Or did he patch people up AFTER combat and use the big mace during battles? Because healing outside of combat is not the Holy Trinity.
Similarly, "usually a big dude with an axe and some kind of quick thief or archer" well, that already doesn't sound like it fits the Holy Trinity, now does it? Does the wizard spam heals in combat? No. And where's the tank that can't deal damage? Does the axe guy, archer and thief never get attacked because of aggro control? Is the only thing the thief does is DPS? Your list of characters might be standard, but trying to use a Holy Trinity system to describe them is like fitting square pegs into round holes. It ain't gonna work that well.
My comment on the military is just that this is just as absurd as in real life, because you know, authors try to make combat sound realistic. Describe holy trinity combat to someone that doesn't play MMOs and if they know anything at all about the real thing or read plenty of fantasy books, they'll find it quite absurd if they think about it. A guy that only takes damage and can't deal it? A guy that only deals damage and can't take it? Someone spamming heals in combat and the tank taking near lethal wound after near lethal wound while those heals are spammed? It's like a bad joke. The only thing worse is trying to act like this somehow didn't originate in MMOs, because it certainly didn't exist before them.
Heck, from what I understand not even the WoW books have the Holy Trinity mechanic in them. But I admit I haven't read them so I can't be sure.
Frankly I am sick and tired of people walking around forums with Holy Trinity glasses acting like it is everywhere. It isn't.
The whole discussion isn't about the holy trinity.................................... It's about tanking, and it was also about healing others during combat and how these things relate to the movies period.
"It is really tanking and combat healing that is far from the movies, not to mention the looting, but what is the point?"
GO DRACHOSOR! He is referring to books; many of which have become movies. So he is on topic, and btw last time i checkes tanking AND helaing were part of the holy trinity.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
Um.. No, he's completely off. Just because tanks and healers are part of the trinity doesn't mean they can't exist outside it. This whole discussion began when the poster I quoted above said he could not see how tanking, combat healing, or looting would fit into the movies and so I provided him examples as to why these (with the exception of looting) would be reasonable.