And this is where you somehow just don't get it. Have you played MMO's pre-WoW? I am asking seriously.
Yet again, this is why MMORPG's and console games are different genre's. One is meant for fast paced fun and gratification, one isn't. MMORPG's are different from console gaming for the fact you can take it at your own pace, and everything takes longer because there are no set paths (Or shouldn't be anyways).
But even taking it at your own pace in today's Hamster wheel MMO's you get to cap in a month,...because they are so linear and instanced.
I tried a lot of MMORPGs pre-WOW (basically everything except UO and EQ.) They were big empty wastes of time.
This definitely isn't a console vs. MMORPG thing. Most PC games provide gameplay for your dollar. Early MMORPGs were pretty empty.
Getting to cap is irrelevant because there's so much more left to do. But you're fixated on leveling.
Empty wastes of time TO YOU. To others it isn't. Some find it time to relax and take in the scenery, explore a bit off the beaten path and discover things, and allow for player interaction.
Most MMO's now are so fast paced people barely glance at one another let alone talk. Unless of course it's for "end game" (<---still the dumbest term used in MMO's. Shouldn't even exist) content. Many players complain their isn't enough content in MMO's, yet, they skip most of it racing to cap, or because they are skipping content with instant travel.
And how much more is there to do outside of PvP or Raiding at cap. Oh wait, I know..make an alt too. Could depend on the game in question, but this is usually all there is.
Even WoW have zones that are completely empty and rarely used. All that space and no one really occuping them.
This sounds more like a personal issue than the MMO it self.
I am not talking about a use case here, and ignoring the rather inappropriate 'incapability' comment, im talking about reality, go spend some time in wow and analyse the behaviour first hand. Im serious, its fascinating to watch when you are not involved. People DO NOT socialise with people they are teaming up with in queued instances, in fact far from that there is often hostility. Hostile behaviour in a game that people are meant to be enjoying?
Sure but why does that matter? You said you could find groups faster with friends/socializing, and I pointed out you can still do that even in games with a queue.
Although the "hostility" comment is pretty far-fetched. Out of the hundreds of queued instances I've run, only like 1% of them involve the hostility you're talking about (which is honestly the same 1% of jerk players you experienced in non-queued instances, tbh.) And with the queueing system, kicking and replacing a jerk player is fast and easy.
its not 1%, its more in the region of 50+%. They even added a function to kick players which we did not need that in the first 3 years of the game, they needed it after they introduced queueing. lol kicking players is fast and easy, reflect on why WOW had to introduce such a thing to such a degree. Normally you would try to get on with people, now we dont care, we boot em.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Only thing I wouldn't be too happy about would be the 2 side PvP.. but meh! thats how most games do it.. And it was the same for the New School Option, so not really up for consideration.
I find it far more interesting if there are an uneven number of sides (3 like DAoC) or if the factions are are player guilds and alliances. It makes the balance a whole lot more dynamic.
1 ) 362 votes. 65% old school, 22% new style = 3 to 1 in favor of old school.
2 ) Think about this !...How many mmo have released with a long time play population. Let me name the POPULAR ones that have a long standing player base. Understand some are just too old to play anymore.
WoW, EQ1, EQ2, UO, LOTRO, SWG, EvE, FF11, GW1, maybe one or two more. What makes games like this long time play ? They are old school mmo's where you play as a community. Friends, guilds, chance to meet others. They are living breathing by the people itself, not fast-fake-me out instanced group content.
3 ) Here is a quick fact. Some would argue bull crap. I say it's a fact.
Vanguard...Thats right Vanguard. Many know its bad history ( released to early, broken, never fixed, sold to stagnated SOE, never really fixed, blah blah blah ).
BUT this is Important.....Its what the population of what mmo players were expecting. They were hoping for a living breathing world of community. A large world of do-what-you like, go-where-you-feel type game. Filled with rich deep dungeons and a harder life with something to reach for....Of course we ended up with a mess...but thats not the point !
To this day people are trying there hardest to see if the game is fixed, many come back only to find " no, nothing yet ". I'll admit that people have been giving up as of the last year...but that's not the point !
The point is, players would have really like this game.
All the above are facts, now here is my opinion, REMEMBER it's just my opinion.
SWTOR will only be a fad. A fad that will last about a year only because its StarWars. Voice Acting will get old very quickly. All the fake-me-out instanced community group events will get very old quickly....At the end of the day you will feel lonely, later everyone will find it a boring mmo.
1) You do not think that poll is skewed in any way? -It is the consensus of the people who have visited this thread and who actually voted. You can't possibly believe that that poll is representative of the whole MMO community especially when the sales numbers do not favor old-school.
2) WoW, LOTRO and GW1 are not old-school. For example GW1 is all instanced. There hasn't been any succesful old-school MMOs since the "new-school" MMOs were released. Eve is one of the few healthy old-school MMO today and they are constantly trying to re-invent themselves. Some may think they are moving towards the "new-school" more and more.
3) Vanguard is an old-school game. It is probably the most standard MMORPG I have ever played, and that is partly why I thought it was so bland. It had bugs, it was unfinished, it had no population to speak of, but on top of that, it was dull. Just like yours, this is an opinion.
And speaking of opinions, the whole division between old-school and new-school is pretty much arbitrary so it is also an opinion. Not a fact. Ofcourse you can say that World of Warcraft is an old-school MMORPG, but I think a lot of people will disagree with you.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Thats funny how some people give so much weight on popularity, as if it ever was a good way to define the quality of a product.
The fact is, mostly popular products are in fact very medium quality, and popularity always mean better accessibility, it never meant quality. And somehow that's exactly what happen in mmo too.
The fact most people play WOW really doesn't mean Wow is their dream game at all. So do people play WOW because it is the most accessible mmorpg, or because its the game they always dreamed to play? i guess the answer is obvious. So apart from the fact that the best quality of Wow is its accessibility, i really don't think a lot of people want to play the kind of Wow mmo tbh.
The fact is most of the other mmo that really tried to have a better quality gameplay, deeper, more complex, richer. Well they all fail from an accessibility stand point, they are buggy and messy. So nobody play them.
1) You do not think that poll is skewed in any way? -It is the consensus of the people who have visited this thread and who actually voted. You can't possibly believe that that poll is representative of the whole MMO community especially when the sales numbers do not favor old-school.
2) WoW, LOTRO and GW1 are not old-school. For example GW1 is all instanced. There hasn't been any succesful old-school MMOs since the "new-school" MMOs were released. Eve is one of the few healthy old-school MMO today and they are constantly trying to re-invent themselves. Some may think they are moving towards the "new-school" more and more.
3) Vanguard is an old-school game. It is probably the most standard MMORPG I have ever played, and that is partly why I thought it was so bland. It had bugs, it was unfinished, it had no population to speak of, but on top of that, it was dull. Just like yours, this is an opinion.
And speaking of opinions, the whole division between old-school and new-school is pretty much arbitrary so it is also an opinion. Not a fact. Ofcourse you can say that World of Warcraft is an old-school MMORPG, but I think a lot of people will disagree with you.
1) Is the poll skewed in any way ? ..... " yes " a little, but not in the way your thinking. The poll is voted on my mmorpg.com users.
mmorpg.com users are more often than not hard core mmo players. A large part of an mmo player's are the 6 year olds, that don't give a rats butt about this forum. And YES they are the ones that like easy, fast level, screw a community lets just have some quick fun type players...... " hay " I'm 6, I'll be doing something else in 30 days anyway
2) WoW and LOTRO were old school. Like it or not they were. Living breathing community driven. Ok GW2 was not, it's popular because its Online F2P only. Other than that it would have failed, no expansion packs would ever had been made, and it would have died with a sub price.
3) Vanguard is old school, we could agree on that. Bland ?....Well only because of Siegel ( off take of SOE ). And SOE mmo's have a bland way of making mmo's. HOWEVER Vanguard was built with having a forever one million subs playing continuously and for ever, that was another mistake along with releasing to early. This would have been a mistake found later on if the game was successful.
Vanguard was designed to be community driven It appears to be boring because it has no population. It's kind of like going to a party, and no one showing up !
Also I guess you did not read the part that the game was released a mess and that was not the point...The point was players were really anticipating a great community based Old School mmo !
Where do you draw the line on ?....Your confusing old mmo's with old school. I'm not talking about stick figures here, I'm talking about community driven mmo's. It just happens to be only older mmos are old school....Now we have no community in new style.
1 ) 362 votes. 65% old school, 22% new style = 3 to 1 in favor of old school.
2 ) Think about this !...How many mmo have released with a long time play population. Let me name the POPULAR ones that have a long standing player base. Understand some are just too old to play anymore.
WoW, EQ1, EQ2, UO, LOTRO, SWG, EvE, FF11, GW1, maybe one or two more. What makes games like this long time play ? They are old school mmo's where you play as a community. Friends, guilds, chance to meet others. They are living breathing by the people itself, not fast-fake-me out instanced group content.
3 ) Here is a quick fact. Some would argue bull crap. I say it's a fact.
Vanguard...Thats right Vanguard. Many know its bad history ( released to early, broken, never fixed, sold to stagnated SOE, never really fixed, blah blah blah ).
BUT this is Important.....Its what the population of what mmo players were expecting. They were hoping for a living breathing world of community. A large world of do-what-you like, go-where-you-feel type game. Filled with rich deep dungeons and a harder life with something to reach for....Of course we ended up with a mess...but thats not the point !
To this day people are trying there hardest to see if the game is fixed, many come back only to find " no, nothing yet ". I'll admit that people have been giving up as of the last year...but that's not the point !
The point is, players would have really like this game.
All the above are facts, now here is my opinion, REMEMBER it's just my opinion.
SWTOR will only be a fad. A fad that will last about a year only because its StarWars. Voice Acting will get old very quickly. All the fake-me-out instanced community group events will get very old quickly....At the end of the day you will feel lonely, later everyone will find it a boring mmo.
I understand your point although I do not agree with it, first of all Vanguard is a top flight MMO, it may have been messed up at first but now although with a few bugs it is the best and most challenging mmo out there and yet no one plays? Why arent all those people who voted Old School playing Vanguard? Could it be their dreams exceed their reality.
Your assumption that SWTOR will remain stagnent is prob going to be false, with the money behind them , Bioware will continue to improve the game and implement things that players want
its not 1%, its more in the region of 50+%. They even added a function to kick players which we did not need that in the first 3 years of the game, they needed it after they introduced queueing. lol kicking players is fast and easy, reflect on why WOW had to introduce such a thing to such a degree. Normally you would try to get on with people, now we dont care, we boot em.
You see 50%+ hostility, I see 1-2% hostility. Unless you're making that up, it sounds like you're doing something to piss off your groups, who you then perceive as being hostile.
AFKing is the main reason people get kicked, which happens in maybe 10-20% of random groups. But there's usually not hostility with AFK kicking. Someone just had some RL issue come up, you let them go, and you get a replacement.
Kicking would've actually be useful pre-queue, since there was about an equal amount (1-2%) of jerks who would ninja gear. When a jerk knows they can be kicked for being a jerk, they think twice.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I picked new style because I prefer a good story, superior graphics, and player created content generally sucks ass. I'll leave that in the hands of the experts.
I will say, however, that I'd love to play a game that can combine both elements.
If there was a MMO where only dev quality content was produced by the players, then that would be a great mechanism in game. I would say for every 1 good amatuer though, you will end up with a bunch of shit from others. Seeing as a person pays not only for the box, but a sub as well, content better have been made by the company. Pizz on sandboxes.
As far as things like boat rides, medding, and other various time sinks....pizz on that. The first time you go to a new area you should have to hike it out. After that, it is simply a waste of time. I like games that have activated teleport spires. Once you reach them, you can always use that one. Also fog of war....once you been to an area it should be mapped.
Older games also enforced player interaction. Pizz on that as well. Give incentives to things, but dont force it. That is one of the major changes that I really like about newer MMOs. I dont wanna take some tool into our group because it is 3AM, and was forced to do a random selection of folks online.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
New story that doesn't affect you much (gear choices) or at all....cross server LFG insta travel dungeon tools that group you with people that probably no one would want to group with if people actually made groups and you were on a single server where rep. mattered....Narrow railed quest hubs, with small zones and scenery that you cant get to or explore...1-2 starting areas, instead of each race having their own starting area or multiple starting areas for a race, that have their own feel...Instances everywhere, and besides in cities (where people sit using LFG tool or scenario tool) you forget you play with more than 6/12 people...
Isn't making things cheap/limited and railed grand! I'll take Old School!
its not 1%, its more in the region of 50+%. They even added a function to kick players which we did not need that in the first 3 years of the game, they needed it after they introduced queueing. lol kicking players is fast and easy, reflect on why WOW had to introduce such a thing to such a degree. Normally you would try to get on with people, now we dont care, we boot em.
You see 50%+ hostility, I see 1-2% hostility. Unless you're making that up, it sounds like you're doing something to piss off your groups, who you then perceive as being hostile.
AFKing is the main reason people get kicked, which happens in maybe 10-20% of random groups. But there's usually not hostility with AFK kicking. Someone just had some RL issue come up, you let them go, and you get a replacement.
Kicking would've actually be useful pre-queue, since there was about an equal amount (1-2%) of jerks who would ninja gear. When a jerk knows they can be kicked for being a jerk, they think twice.
your starting to wander into personal insults yet again, The behaviour i am actually referring to funnily enough. Hostility was not towards myself, I enjoy meeting new people, and am pretty laid back and enjoyed runs wether they were good or bad. So personal insulting asside, It is a higher percent, the game is renowned for it. and the fact is, blizzard had to introduce a tool to kick people when they never needed it for the first couple years. - what changed? Lets say rude,angy,obnoxious - if you think only 1 or 2 runs in 100 pug runs had this type of anti-social behaviour then you are not well informed.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
if you think only 1 or 2 runs in 100 pug runs had this type of anti-social behaviour then you are not well informed.
Well informed? I'm not relying on heresay evidence here. This is personal experience over literally hundreds of PUG runs.
There is one thing Dungeon Finder groups are renowned for, but it's not hostility. Quite the opposite: it's silence. Seriously 95% of PUG runs are a fast efficient run followed by 2-3 of the members saying "thanks all!" at the end (as the first thing they say to each other.)
Anecdotal evidence can be unrealiable, but this is literally hundreds of dungeon finder runs I'm talking about so both the bad eggs and good ones average themselves out
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
lol well im talknig about well known game issues.. RE runs, well I probably have done about 3000 or so, and I guestimate there was maybe 10 afks in that time. Anyway, enough of anocdotal evidence, if you think there isnt a problem with anti social behaviour then fine.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
if you think only 1 or 2 runs in 100 pug runs had this type of anti-social behaviour then you are not well informed.
Well informed? I'm not relying on heresay evidence here. This is personal experience over literally hundreds of PUG runs.
There is one thing Dungeon Finder groups are renowned for, but it's not hostility. Quite the opposite: it's silence. Seriously 95% of PUG runs are a fast efficient run followed by 2-3 of the members saying "thanks all!" at the end (as the first thing they say to each other.)
Anecdotal evidence can be unrealiable, but this is literally hundreds of dungeon finder runs I'm talking about so both the bad eggs and good ones average themselves out
Hundreds is not a viable number for statistical analysis, nor is the experience of a single person. Further there are multiple obfuscating factors it doesn't sound like you controlled for. I have no opinion on WoW PUG runs seeing as I played the free trial, bought the game, and then never used it after I bought it because the crafting blew. But from the perspective of statistical analysis your example is not viable. It sounds to be like you are both providing anecdotal evidence and he is also hinting at some sort of statistical analysis but since he refuses to link it it doesn't count.
I would agree. If he thinks there are no anti social problems with wow in general fine, I don't need to try and persuade anyone here
edit even going by axes experience, runs are fast efficient and in silence, thats not anti-social, but its not social either, I still like the older days where creating a group involved socialising, and it was more about having fun with your friends (or friendly peeps) than burning through instances for no other reason than farming gold.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Specifiy MMORPG PvE decisions that are fresh, non-repetitive and that are always available to replace the time "lost" in the travel timesink. Because unless there are meaningful (repetitive decisions are always meaningless and just timesinks) decisions to substitute the time "lost", then why trade one timesink for another timesink?
Repetitive gameplay is as bad as no gameplay: practically just another timesink.
Repeating a certain form of gameplay over and over again is waste of time, is it not? There needs to be significant variation to be at least somewhat entertaining.
So let's say you were locked in a room for a month with food and a special computer terminal, and this terminal could either (your choice) do absolutely nothing or let you play a game you've played before.
What do you feel will be more entertaining? No gameplay, or repeat gameplay?
It depends on what kind of gameplay. If it is PvP gameplay, then the human-infused variation may be enough to keep me far more entertained than doing nothing. If it is PvE gameplay, specially dungeon/raid related, I would prefer the peace of doing nothing compared to having to do something that is the same as I have done numerous times already.
The only justification for repetitive PvE gameplay is the reward, but that isn't a part of the gameplay itself, but rather a way to force you through the gameplay.
As I see it, what makes repeating gameplay you've already done numerous times "fun" is that you hopefully get something for enduring it. However, I would rather have the time I was forced to endure to reap my reward be composed of traveling + repetitive PvE task than repetitive PvE task alone; reason being that traveling and meanwhile beholding the virtual world surroundings normally adds to immersion.
1) Is the poll skewed in any way ? ..... " yes " a little, but not in the way your thinking. The poll is voted on my mmorpg.com users.
mmorpg.com users are more often than not hard core mmo players. A large part of an mmo player's are the 6 year olds, that don't give a rats butt about this forum. And YES they are the ones that like easy, fast level, screw a community lets just have some quick fun type players...... " hay " I'm 6, I'll be doing something else in 30 days anyway
2) WoW and LOTRO were old school. Like it or not they were. Living breathing community driven. Ok GW2 was not, it's popular because its Online F2P only. Other than that it would have failed, no expansion packs would ever had been made, and it would have died with a sub price.
6 year olds who like easy, fast travel and quick fun? -You don't even want to understand other people, do you? You care only about what is fun to you and fuck all the rest, am I right?
GW1 did good only because it was B2P? Thats a "fact" too, is it? -Someone obviously didn't like it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I would agree. If he thinks there are no anti social problems with wow in general fine, I don't need to try and persuade anyone here
edit even going by axes experience, runs are fast efficient and in silence, thats not anti-social, but its not social either, I still like the older days where creating a group involved socialising, and it was more about having fun with your friends (or friendly peeps) than burning through instances for no other reason than farming gold.
We're not talking about WOW in general. We're talking about hostility during instance runs.
And back to my earlier point: if you want that gameplay of doing a dungeon with friends, it still exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
{mod edit} Everyone who's run a significant amount (and 100+ is significant) of Dungeon Finder runs knows his claims of 50% runs involving hostility are nonsense -- so whether or not you pretend to accept my experiences, everyone else in the thread who's used the feature knows it's BS.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If it is PvE gameplay, specially dungeon/raid related, I would prefer the peace of doing nothing compared to having to do something that is the same as I have done numerous times already.
The only justification for repetitive PvE gameplay is the reward, but that isn't a part of the gameplay itself, but rather a way to force you through the gameplay.
As I see it, what makes repeating gameplay you've already done numerous times "fun" is that you hopefully get something for enduring it. However, I would rather have the time I was forced to endure to reap my reward be composed of traveling + repetitive PvE task than repetitive PvE task alone; reason being that traveling and meanwhile beholding the virtual world surroundings normally adds to immersion.
Er, that's very sad. You only experience joy from a fractional part of gaming (reward) while the rest of us enjoy the entire experience (gameplay + reward.)
I suppose from such a sad perspective, you would indeed make that choice. But you probably have recognized that most of the rest of us actually enjoy playing games for fun (and not necessarily reward), so you could understand why I felt it'd be a foregone conclusion that you'd choose repeat gameplay over no gameplay at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am a 40 years old happily married man who loves playing games, and I have 'literally' done 10+ times the runs you have done, and I have no reason to 'bs' . you say only 2 out of a hundred runs have issues with obnoxious,rude,arrogant,elitist,selfish behaviour (all hostile), so why the urgent need for the boot system? The facts speak for themeselves. 2 out of a hundred, cmon get real, everyone knows the social issues in that game now, oh and the boot system was not built for AFK incidently.
2 out of 100 and WOW would be an amazing game to play again.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I am a 40 years old happily married man who loves playing games, and I have 'literally' done 10+ times the runs you have done, and I have no reason to 'bs' . you say only 2 out of a hundred runs have issues with obnoxious,rude,arrogant,elitist,selfish behaviour (all hostile), so why the urgent need for the boot system? The facts speak for themeselves. 2 out of a hundred, cmon get real, everyone knows the social issues in that game now, oh and the boot system was not built for AFK incidently.
2 out of 100 and WOW would be an amazing game to play again.
As I pointed out, the need for a kick system existed before the queue, and is generally a great deterrant to jerk or AFK players. There wasn't an "urgent" need. It wasn't something Blizzard scrambled to implement. They upgraded their grouping system and this feature just happened to coincide.
You'd have to really stretch the definitions of elitist, selfish, and rude to try to say more than half your groups have someone being "hostile". I suppose anyone linking damage meters, saying something remotely non-positive, or rolling need against you are all forms of "hostility" to you? That would go a long way towards explaining the "50%"
The "social issues" people bring up are trade chat and forums. Usually if grouping is criticized (especially by anti-WOW players here) it's that the groups are completely silent until the "thanks" at the end.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Even WoW have zones that are completely empty and rarely used. All that space and no one really occuping them.
This sounds more like a personal issue than the MMO it self.
its not 1%, its more in the region of 50+%. They even added a function to kick players which we did not need that in the first 3 years of the game, they needed it after they introduced queueing. lol kicking players is fast and easy, reflect on why WOW had to introduce such a thing to such a degree. Normally you would try to get on with people, now we dont care, we boot em.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I picked Old School..
Only thing I wouldn't be too happy about would be the 2 side PvP.. but meh! thats how most games do it.. And it was the same for the New School Option, so not really up for consideration.
I find it far more interesting if there are an uneven number of sides (3 like DAoC) or if the factions are are player guilds and alliances. It makes the balance a whole lot more dynamic.
I know, its so AWESOME!
Hello!
Hi!
What build are you running?
Uh, what?
What build are you running? We've tried this dungeon 4 times already and we need more heals.
Oh, I have [BUILD X].
OK, that doesn't look very good. Could you respec to [BUILD Y], pls so we'd get more heals?
No.
Why? We can't go in without more heals.
I said NO! I wanna play what I wanna play just go in already!
I already said we need more heals before we go in!
GO GO GO!
*KICK*
Damn hippies... We still need a healer, guys.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Their is a bottom line here :
1 ) 362 votes. 65% old school, 22% new style = 3 to 1 in favor of old school.
2 ) Think about this !...How many mmo have released with a long time play population. Let me name the POPULAR ones that have a long standing player base. Understand some are just too old to play anymore.
WoW, EQ1, EQ2, UO, LOTRO, SWG, EvE, FF11, GW1, maybe one or two more. What makes games like this long time play ? They are old school mmo's where you play as a community. Friends, guilds, chance to meet others. They are living breathing by the people itself, not fast-fake-me out instanced group content.
3 ) Here is a quick fact. Some would argue bull crap. I say it's a fact.
Vanguard...Thats right Vanguard. Many know its bad history ( released to early, broken, never fixed, sold to stagnated SOE, never really fixed, blah blah blah ).
BUT this is Important.....Its what the population of what mmo players were expecting. They were hoping for a living breathing world of community. A large world of do-what-you like, go-where-you-feel type game. Filled with rich deep dungeons and a harder life with something to reach for....Of course we ended up with a mess...but thats not the point !
To this day people are trying there hardest to see if the game is fixed, many come back only to find " no, nothing yet ". I'll admit that people have been giving up as of the last year...but that's not the point !
The point is, players would have really like this game.
All the above are facts, now here is my opinion, REMEMBER it's just my opinion.
SWTOR will only be a fad. A fad that will last about a year only because its StarWars. Voice Acting will get old very quickly. All the fake-me-out instanced community group events will get very old quickly....At the end of the day you will feel lonely, later everyone will find it a boring mmo.
1) You do not think that poll is skewed in any way? -It is the consensus of the people who have visited this thread and who actually voted. You can't possibly believe that that poll is representative of the whole MMO community especially when the sales numbers do not favor old-school.
2) WoW, LOTRO and GW1 are not old-school. For example GW1 is all instanced. There hasn't been any succesful old-school MMOs since the "new-school" MMOs were released. Eve is one of the few healthy old-school MMO today and they are constantly trying to re-invent themselves. Some may think they are moving towards the "new-school" more and more.
3) Vanguard is an old-school game. It is probably the most standard MMORPG I have ever played, and that is partly why I thought it was so bland. It had bugs, it was unfinished, it had no population to speak of, but on top of that, it was dull. Just like yours, this is an opinion.
And speaking of opinions, the whole division between old-school and new-school is pretty much arbitrary so it is also an opinion. Not a fact. Ofcourse you can say that World of Warcraft is an old-school MMORPG, but I think a lot of people will disagree with you.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Thats funny how some people give so much weight on popularity, as if it ever was a good way to define the quality of a product.
The fact is, mostly popular products are in fact very medium quality, and popularity always mean better accessibility, it never meant quality. And somehow that's exactly what happen in mmo too.
The fact most people play WOW really doesn't mean Wow is their dream game at all. So do people play WOW because it is the most accessible mmorpg, or because its the game they always dreamed to play? i guess the answer is obvious. So apart from the fact that the best quality of Wow is its accessibility, i really don't think a lot of people want to play the kind of Wow mmo tbh.
The fact is most of the other mmo that really tried to have a better quality gameplay, deeper, more complex, richer. Well they all fail from an accessibility stand point, they are buggy and messy. So nobody play them.
1) Is the poll skewed in any way ? ..... " yes " a little, but not in the way your thinking. The poll is voted on my mmorpg.com users.
mmorpg.com users are more often than not hard core mmo players. A large part of an mmo player's are the 6 year olds, that don't give a rats butt about this forum. And YES they are the ones that like easy, fast level, screw a community lets just have some quick fun type players...... " hay " I'm 6, I'll be doing something else in 30 days anyway
2) WoW and LOTRO were old school. Like it or not they were. Living breathing community driven. Ok GW2 was not, it's popular because its Online F2P only. Other than that it would have failed, no expansion packs would ever had been made, and it would have died with a sub price.
3) Vanguard is old school, we could agree on that. Bland ?....Well only because of Siegel ( off take of SOE ). And SOE mmo's have a bland way of making mmo's. HOWEVER Vanguard was built with having a forever one million subs playing continuously and for ever, that was another mistake along with releasing to early. This would have been a mistake found later on if the game was successful.
Vanguard was designed to be community driven It appears to be boring because it has no population. It's kind of like going to a party, and no one showing up !
Also I guess you did not read the part that the game was released a mess and that was not the point...The point was players were really anticipating a great community based Old School mmo !
Where do you draw the line on ?....Your confusing old mmo's with old school. I'm not talking about stick figures here, I'm talking about community driven mmo's. It just happens to be only older mmos are old school....Now we have no community in new style.
I understand your point although I do not agree with it, first of all Vanguard is a top flight MMO, it may have been messed up at first but now although with a few bugs it is the best and most challenging mmo out there and yet no one plays? Why arent all those people who voted Old School playing Vanguard? Could it be their dreams exceed their reality.
Your assumption that SWTOR will remain stagnent is prob going to be false, with the money behind them , Bioware will continue to improve the game and implement things that players want
You see 50%+ hostility, I see 1-2% hostility. Unless you're making that up, it sounds like you're doing something to piss off your groups, who you then perceive as being hostile.
AFKing is the main reason people get kicked, which happens in maybe 10-20% of random groups. But there's usually not hostility with AFK kicking. Someone just had some RL issue come up, you let them go, and you get a replacement.
Kicking would've actually be useful pre-queue, since there was about an equal amount (1-2%) of jerks who would ninja gear. When a jerk knows they can be kicked for being a jerk, they think twice.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If there was a MMO where only dev quality content was produced by the players, then that would be a great mechanism in game. I would say for every 1 good amatuer though, you will end up with a bunch of shit from others. Seeing as a person pays not only for the box, but a sub as well, content better have been made by the company. Pizz on sandboxes.
As far as things like boat rides, medding, and other various time sinks....pizz on that. The first time you go to a new area you should have to hike it out. After that, it is simply a waste of time. I like games that have activated teleport spires. Once you reach them, you can always use that one. Also fog of war....once you been to an area it should be mapped.
Older games also enforced player interaction. Pizz on that as well. Give incentives to things, but dont force it. That is one of the major changes that I really like about newer MMOs. I dont wanna take some tool into our group because it is 3AM, and was forced to do a random selection of folks online.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
New story that doesn't affect you much (gear choices) or at all....cross server LFG insta travel dungeon tools that group you with people that probably no one would want to group with if people actually made groups and you were on a single server where rep. mattered....Narrow railed quest hubs, with small zones and scenery that you cant get to or explore...1-2 starting areas, instead of each race having their own starting area or multiple starting areas for a race, that have their own feel...Instances everywhere, and besides in cities (where people sit using LFG tool or scenario tool) you forget you play with more than 6/12 people...
Isn't making things cheap/limited and railed grand! I'll take Old School!
your starting to wander into personal insults yet again, The behaviour i am actually referring to funnily enough. Hostility was not towards myself, I enjoy meeting new people, and am pretty laid back and enjoyed runs wether they were good or bad. So personal insulting asside, It is a higher percent, the game is renowned for it. and the fact is, blizzard had to introduce a tool to kick people when they never needed it for the first couple years. - what changed? Lets say rude,angy,obnoxious - if you think only 1 or 2 runs in 100 pug runs had this type of anti-social behaviour then you are not well informed.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well informed? I'm not relying on heresay evidence here. This is personal experience over literally hundreds of PUG runs.
There is one thing Dungeon Finder groups are renowned for, but it's not hostility. Quite the opposite: it's silence. Seriously 95% of PUG runs are a fast efficient run followed by 2-3 of the members saying "thanks all!" at the end (as the first thing they say to each other.)
Anecdotal evidence can be unrealiable, but this is literally hundreds of dungeon finder runs I'm talking about so both the bad eggs and good ones average themselves out
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
lol well im talknig about well known game issues.. RE runs, well I probably have done about 3000 or so, and I guestimate there was maybe 10 afks in that time. Anyway, enough of anocdotal evidence, if you think there isnt a problem with anti social behaviour then fine.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Hundreds is not a viable number for statistical analysis, nor is the experience of a single person. Further there are multiple obfuscating factors it doesn't sound like you controlled for. I have no opinion on WoW PUG runs seeing as I played the free trial, bought the game, and then never used it after I bought it because the crafting blew. But from the perspective of statistical analysis your example is not viable. It sounds to be like you are both providing anecdotal evidence and he is also hinting at some sort of statistical analysis but since he refuses to link it it doesn't count.
Anecdata wars, commence!
I would agree. If he thinks there are no anti social problems with wow in general fine, I don't need to try and persuade anyone here
edit even going by axes experience, runs are fast efficient and in silence, thats not anti-social, but its not social either, I still like the older days where creating a group involved socialising, and it was more about having fun with your friends (or friendly peeps) than burning through instances for no other reason than farming gold.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It depends on what kind of gameplay. If it is PvP gameplay, then the human-infused variation may be enough to keep me far more entertained than doing nothing. If it is PvE gameplay, specially dungeon/raid related, I would prefer the peace of doing nothing compared to having to do something that is the same as I have done numerous times already.
The only justification for repetitive PvE gameplay is the reward, but that isn't a part of the gameplay itself, but rather a way to force you through the gameplay.
As I see it, what makes repeating gameplay you've already done numerous times "fun" is that you hopefully get something for enduring it. However, I would rather have the time I was forced to endure to reap my reward be composed of traveling + repetitive PvE task than repetitive PvE task alone; reason being that traveling and meanwhile beholding the virtual world surroundings normally adds to immersion.
6 year olds who like easy, fast travel and quick fun? -You don't even want to understand other people, do you? You care only about what is fun to you and fuck all the rest, am I right?
GW1 did good only because it was B2P? Thats a "fact" too, is it? -Someone obviously didn't like it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
We're not talking about WOW in general. We're talking about hostility during instance runs.
And back to my earlier point: if you want that gameplay of doing a dungeon with friends, it still exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
{mod edit} Everyone who's run a significant amount (and 100+ is significant) of Dungeon Finder runs knows his claims of 50% runs involving hostility are nonsense -- so whether or not you pretend to accept my experiences, everyone else in the thread who's used the feature knows it's BS.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Er, that's very sad. You only experience joy from a fractional part of gaming (reward) while the rest of us enjoy the entire experience (gameplay + reward.)
I suppose from such a sad perspective, you would indeed make that choice. But you probably have recognized that most of the rest of us actually enjoy playing games for fun (and not necessarily reward), so you could understand why I felt it'd be a foregone conclusion that you'd choose repeat gameplay over no gameplay at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am a 40 years old happily married man who loves playing games, and I have 'literally' done 10+ times the runs you have done, and I have no reason to 'bs' . you say only 2 out of a hundred runs have issues with obnoxious,rude,arrogant,elitist,selfish behaviour (all hostile), so why the urgent need for the boot system? The facts speak for themeselves. 2 out of a hundred, cmon get real, everyone knows the social issues in that game now, oh and the boot system was not built for AFK incidently.
2 out of 100 and WOW would be an amazing game to play again.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
story if its a part of the game
e.g. Half Life series and Elder Scrolls series
I hate story where its just, right now you need to sit back and watch this video for a minute, I've payed to play a game not watch a movie.
As I pointed out, the need for a kick system existed before the queue, and is generally a great deterrant to jerk or AFK players. There wasn't an "urgent" need. It wasn't something Blizzard scrambled to implement. They upgraded their grouping system and this feature just happened to coincide.
You'd have to really stretch the definitions of elitist, selfish, and rude to try to say more than half your groups have someone being "hostile". I suppose anyone linking damage meters, saying something remotely non-positive, or rolling need against you are all forms of "hostility" to you? That would go a long way towards explaining the "50%"
The "social issues" people bring up are trade chat and forums. Usually if grouping is criticized (especially by anti-WOW players here) it's that the groups are completely silent until the "thanks" at the end.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver