MMO's will be New style from here on out NO MATTER WHAT !
Box sales were big for Rift, and box sales will be big for SWTOR also. How I see it is Rift was somewhat of a short fad, but box sales were up regardless. SWTOR will be big because its starwars. Sure many people will like it.....But I hope because of high box sales will not cause all mmos to follow in new style.
Of 215 votes :
Old School 63.7
New Style 23.3
Just let me see the poll 13.0
With taking out "just let me see the poll" we have 3 : 1 in favor of Old Style.
But :
1) Developers will not see this poll.
2) Developers will make games according to box sales of other games.
3) If your here on mmorpg.com, I would guess your a Pro-MMO player and not some 6 year old. So we may not be the majority like we used to be....The 6 year olds took over.
So us that like Old style may be screwed !!!
this is actually a bad poll question as it leads the audience towards the old school answer, old school, if done well? ofcourse most people will pick that. it would have been better to have more detailed questions becouse "done well" means many things. you can get 51% of people to agree on a problem but you can never get 51% to agree on the solution.
Yes, and also as I mentioned before: this forum is full of a completely inaccurate ratio of oldschool refugees. (The happy MMORPG players aren't on a forum complaining: they're out playing MMORPGs!)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
MMO's will be New style from here on out NO MATTER WHAT !
Box sales were big for Rift, and box sales will be big for SWTOR also. How I see it is Rift was somewhat of a short fad, but box sales were up regardless. SWTOR will be big because its starwars. Sure many people will like it.....But I hope because of high box sales will not cause all mmos to follow in new style.
Of 215 votes :
Old School 63.7
New Style 23.3
Just let me see the poll 13.0
With taking out "just let me see the poll" we have 3 : 1 in favor of Old Style.
But :
1) Developers will not see this poll.
2) Developers will make games according to box sales of other games.
3) If your here on mmorpg.com, I would guess your a Pro-MMO player and not some 6 year old. So we may not be the majority like we used to be....The 6 year olds took over.
So us that like Old style may be screwed !!!
this is actually a bad poll question as it leads the audience towards the old school answer, old school, if done well? ofcourse most people will pick that. it would have been better to have more detailed questions becouse "done well" means many things. you can get 51% of people to agree on a problem but you can never get 51% to agree on the solution.
Yes, and also as I mentioned before: this forum is full of a completely inaccurate ratio of oldschool refugees. (The happy MMORPG players aren't on a forum complaining: they're out playing MMORPGs!)
I'm a happy mmorpg player lol. just waiting for my game to launch,
I picked old school. I usually like to play games that offer a lot of freedom. It is nice to have story there if you want it though, but more to guide me through and adventure as opposed to telling me who my character is. I like to make my own backstory.
For the most part though, I enjoy games that let me go out into the world and discover it and myself at my own pace. I get bored very easily, so killing 10 or 20 of something over and over gets old very quickly. I have done faction grinds in themepark games because I wanted the rewards, but at the end I wanted to slit my wrists.
Fill players' time with quality, meaningful gameplay? They'll stay.
Freedom to choose solo vs. grouping? They'll stay.
Freedom to choose easy vs. hard, and rewarded accordingly? They'll stay.
(Inconveniences are terrrible for gameplay. Challenge is great for gameplay. The point of new MMORPGs is to strip out the inconveniences while leaving the challenge.)
Also were there any early MMORPGs which actually had deep rich dungeons? The dungeons in modern MMORPGs give me bosses so rich that they're minigames unto themselves. The dungeons in old MMORPGs (AC and AO and DAOC) were just mazy corridors with elite mobs. Not even close to what I'd call rich.
Blah blah blah blah. Axehilt, go peddle your pro-WoW style, want everything handed to me, make it a console RPG garbage elsewhere. New sure must be what is wanted since it is buried in this poll.
No one is saying they find inconveinience fun. It's only inconveinient to those who don't like to think or work a bit for rewards (Which is also a form of fun and gratification that most new gamers can't seem to grasp). Yet again...this is what seperates MMORPG's from console gaming. You want rewarded and to feel 1337 quickly, go play console games, or stick to WoW.
How does waiting for hours around for players to fill a group THINKING or WORK? Waiting for your DP to wear off, again how is that THINKING or WORK?
SEE HOW THAT WORKS? Do you need me to go on?
Time, if you got it, you can play it!
How about an MMO where you can't get to cap in less than a month and sit in capitals cities HAVING to wait for groups because that is all their is for you to do. Your finding things I didn't even mention to complain about...congratulations!
Problem is, MMORPG's were meant to take time, hence why they had monthly fees (Plus continuous updates). But players now don't want to dedicate time in this rat race society, so they rather whine to have them changed into RPG console games. And want everythign NOW NOW NOW.
If i was in college or unempolyed again, yes, I would have all the time in the world to play.
Your gener does as much whining as the next, you guys can't even agree on one game or a common ground. Everytime a new game is being developed you guys rejoice. As soon as more and more info comes out about it, all you need is that one thing to set you off. It's never good enough becuase it's not old school enough.
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Slowdoves
Originally posted by Vorthanion
I see polls like this and it makes me boggle. One of the biggest gripes on this board is about slow, non-twitch combat and yet old school games were the kings of slow combat with little interaction and 5 to 30 minute fights. Sometimes I think you old schoolers not only wear rose tinted glasses, but you're not even sure what it is you really want out of an MMO other than making sure game mechanics force everyone to play your way.
This material is considered highly classified information.
Where's security?
His comments are idiotic, because MMORPG's were in their infancy when we played them, so of course they were slow and crude. As if we had a choice then. But even so, I would STILL take the "feel" (Actual possibility of immersion) of the older MMO's over the non-immersive give me everything now because I got to cap in a month MMO's today.
It's hardly idiotic! Seeing someone state the obvious is so hard to absorb isn't it?
Let's see:
If it's too slow it's not fast enough! But wait if it's too fast it's not slow enough.
If it takes to long it's too grindy! But if it's not grindy then it's too short.
You are right, seeing how many of those games then were the 1st of it's kind, but now, you have the option to choose to play some of them still.
Problem is, MMORPG's were meant to take time, hence why they had monthly fees (Plus continuous updates). But players now don't want to dedicate time in this rat race society, so they rather whine to have them changed into RPG console games. And want everythign NOW NOW NOW.
If i was in college or unempolyed again, yes, I would have all the time in the world to play.
Your gener does as much whining as the next, you guys can't even agree on one game or a common ground. Everytime a new game is being developed you guys rejoice. As soon as more and more info comes out about it, all you need is that one thing to set you off. It's never good enough becuase it's not old school enough.
Er, to be fair no generation will ever agree on one game. Why would you expect that? People are different.
But one thing nearly everyone want is dense content -- for our playtime to frequently be chock-full of interesting things to do. If that's called "NOW NOW NOW", so be it, it's what we want.
And there's no real reason it should be any other way. If a developer knew how to create a neverending stream of new (and interesting) content, they would do it in a heartbeat! That's exactly what players want.
What players don't want, and the odd direction Goat seems to support, is stepping in the opposite direction: intentionally adding timesinks where they're not needed.
As always, players want gameplay and gameplay is measured by how interesting the decisions are. The genre seeks to slice off the fat so that it's lean and composed of the most interesting decisions, but some players are mysteriously obsessed over the fat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Problem is, MMORPG's were meant to take time, hence why they had monthly fees (Plus continuous updates). But players now don't want to dedicate time in this rat race society, so they rather whine to have them changed into RPG console games. And want everythign NOW NOW NOW.
If i was in college or unempolyed again, yes, I would have all the time in the world to play.
Your gener does as much whining as the next, you guys can't even agree on one game or a common ground. Everytime a new game is being developed you guys rejoice. As soon as more and more info comes out about it, all you need is that one thing to set you off. It's never good enough becuase it's not old school enough.
Er, to be fair no generation will ever agree on one game. Why would you expect that? People are different.
But one thing nearly everyone want is dense content -- for our playtime to frequently be chock-full of interesting things to do. If that's called "NOW NOW NOW", so be it, it's what we want.
And there's no real reason it should be any other way. If a developer knew how to create a neverending stream of new (and interesting) content, they would do it in a heartbeat! That's exactly what players want.
What players don't want, and the odd direction Goat seems to support, is stepping in the opposite direction: intentionally adding timesinks where they're not needed.
As always, players want gameplay and gameplay is measured by how interesting the decisions are. The genre seeks to slice off the fat so that it's lean and composed of the most interesting decisions, but some players are mysteriously obsessed over the fat.
I'm not expecting them to all, just an observation a trend I keep seeing on these boards. The MMORPG market is much bigger than it was before, it's pretty obvious people get pulled in more directions now. There were so few MMORPG then so it makes sense that it was a much tighter group and community. The MMO generation simply exploded.
I like to play a main game with the old-school feel along with big demands and some games on the side for quick 10-30 min fixes.
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It's getting to the point that many mmo players DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. I'm not picking on anyone here.
It's been a long time since we had a leaving breathing world, full of people playing together, having a community, getting together to do open world quest, hand picked teams to do dungeons, the danger of getting their, helping strangers with a hard quest later to become friends. GUILDS that work ! Sure few games have end game content where some of this comes together. But most quit a game before reaching this point.
Important :
People become board because they are alone. You have kill ten rats quest both in old school and new style mmo's. But it's much more fun killing ten hard rats with a bunch of people.
An epic night for me is a well oiled group working togeather....Not a Fake-me-out fast half hour dungeon finder instanced cave they called a dungeon where no one talks....I'm sure most all of you feel nothing at the end of the night the way mmo's are made now !
I say players DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER because we only have old mmos like EQ, Vanilla WoW, DAOC and EQ2 to compare it to. A new mmo with a do what you like feel would be welcome by teenagers and up, but I guess the 6 year olds would not like it....And as it stands the market is made for the 6 year olds. This creates a problem because now everyone gets board after 30 days, 6-60 blind crippled or crazy !
EQ made me that way, the stress, enjoyment , struggle and friends that got me to lvl 60 in 2000 on my wizard were worth it. The many many battles, groups, and trains in KC . The hell levels , the epic weapon quests, the boat ride from Butcher Block to North Freeport . Camping the AC for jboots, the Epic 14 hour corpse runs in the plains. The ability to crowd control 5 mobs in KC while the group dealt to the main 6th mob with my bard........
I miss it
But truely i miss the open game play of EQ, where your direction in the game was controled by your decisions and not directed by the Dev's.
The reason why the new school is succeeding more and more and you are seeing less elements of Hardcore game design in MMORPG's are two reasons. This precious commodity called time and Balance.
I played SWG I quit it I didn't need the second job I would much rather spend time with my friends also after playing KOTOR SWG just stopped being fun. Played vanilla WoW and I loved that up till 60 when it became a raid/grind fest on the neverending loot treadmill to stay relevant in that game, so after awhile and getting busier in real life quit that. Played City of Heroes and left that because of lack of anything to do at Endgame at the time most fun I've had probably leveling and getting to endgame was that game though. Played LoTRO and got to endgame and once again it was a gear grind to stay relevant and complete stuff or go level an alt, since I id not see myself sticking with it for a long time left that too. I had other things to do with my time!
Hardcore game design survives in single player games because your not competing with anyone your not trying to stay relevant or be balanced with anyone else. Right now in MMORPG's you are and that's why SWTOR is coming out with the most casual friendly game design yet. They are targeting the masses because they want to make money and for a first MMO why would a developer want to risk one of the world's most lucrative IP's and mess it up by trying to be two things. I would love to see some sort of fusion of the genres but then you risk having hardcore gamers complain that one guy got the same loot as them by playing "easy mode".
Devs don't want to deal with that and don't care so for everyone its now just easy mode until someone comes up with a new and incredibly innovative architecture that melds the two perfectly or hardcore gamers accept that there will be an easy mode on their games that bring the same riches and rewards as the hardcore way.
The masses have spoken and their voice is louder and since I am one of them I say long live new style MMORPGs a game that I can play when I have time, or I can play for hours and a game that I can put down and not fall so far behind I need to hire someone to play for me. That's the kind of game I love and I am glad it's coming out in SWTOR.
Fill players' time with quality, meaningful gameplay? They'll stay.
Freedom to choose solo vs. grouping? They'll stay.
Freedom to choose easy vs. hard, and rewarded accordingly? They'll stay.
(Inconveniences are terrrible for gameplay. Challenge is great for gameplay. The point of new MMORPGs is to strip out the inconveniences while leaving the challenge.)
Also were there any early MMORPGs which actually had deep rich dungeons? The dungeons in modern MMORPGs give me bosses so rich that they're minigames unto themselves. The dungeons in old MMORPGs (AC and AO and DAOC) were just mazy corridors with elite mobs. Not even close to what I'd call rich.
Blah blah blah blah. Axehilt, go peddle your pro-WoW style, want everything handed to me, make it a console RPG garbage elsewhere. New sure must be what is wanted since it is buried in this poll.
No one is saying they find inconveinience fun. It's only inconveinient to those who don't like to think or work a bit for rewards (Which is also a form of fun and gratification that most new gamers can't seem to grasp). Yet again...this is what seperates MMORPG's from console gaming. You want rewarded and to feel 1337 quickly, go play console games, or stick to WoW.
How does waiting for hours around for players to fill a group THINKING or WORK? Waiting for your DP to wear off, again how is that THINKING or WORK?
SEE HOW THAT WORKS? Do you need me to go on?
Time, if you got it, you can play it!
How about an MMO where you can't get to cap in less than a month and sit in capitals cities HAVING to wait for groups because that is all their is for you to do. Your finding things I didn't even mention to complain about...congratulations!
Problem is, MMORPG's were meant to take time, hence why they had monthly fees (Plus continuous updates). But players now don't want to dedicate time in this rat race society, so they rather whine to have them changed into RPG console games. And want everythign NOW NOW NOW.
If i was in college or unempolyed again, yes, I would have all the time in the world to play.
Your gener does as much whining as the next, you guys can't even agree on one game or a common ground. Everytime a new game is being developed you guys rejoice. As soon as more and more info comes out about it, all you need is that one thing to set you off. It's never good enough becuase it's not old school enough.
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Slowdoves
Originally posted by Vorthanion
I see polls like this and it makes me boggle. One of the biggest gripes on this board is about slow, non-twitch combat and yet old school games were the kings of slow combat with little interaction and 5 to 30 minute fights. Sometimes I think you old schoolers not only wear rose tinted glasses, but you're not even sure what it is you really want out of an MMO other than making sure game mechanics force everyone to play your way.
This material is considered highly classified information.
Where's security?
His comments are idiotic, because MMORPG's were in their infancy when we played them, so of course they were slow and crude. As if we had a choice then. But even so, I would STILL take the "feel" (Actual possibility of immersion) of the older MMO's over the non-immersive give me everything now because I got to cap in a month MMO's today.
It's hardly idiotic! Seeing someone state the obvious is so hard to absorb isn't it?
Let's see:
If it's too slow it's not fast enough! But wait if it's too fast it's not slow enough.
If it takes to long it's too grindy! But if it's not grindy then it's too short.
You are right, seeing how many of those games then were the 1st of it's kind, but now, you have the option to choose to play some of them still.
I am employed and I still played MMO's. I say played because their isn't anything worth playing currently (quit Allods 3+ months ago) IMO. But when I did play, I had a job, a daughter, amongst other things. I know they take time, and I am in no hurry to cap out so I can sit in capital cities whining for more content like everyone else. That is what sets console gaming and MMORPG's apart. One is made for instant gratification, the other not so much, or to an extent...when they first started.
Now they have become nothing more than console style RPG's that HAPPEN to have massive multi-player. Funneled, heavily instanced, too much instant travel...and just cookie cutters of each other with no new innovation or creativity. Same crap, different wrapper.
As an old schooler myself...I'll tell ya, I went back to EQ1 about 4 months ago, even managed to get my account back up I haven't played in 7 years! Anyways, I had a lot of fun....for about a month. Yes, the nostalgia set in a bit...but the community was actually just as it was when I left. People were helpful and friendly, answered question, and even gave you some low level starting items. And despite the horrid graphics and dull combat system...just got me immersed so much more than that nostalgia.
But let's be serious though...would you pay $15 a month to play an Atari 2600 after having had a PS3 and/or XBox 360? Yeah, that's what I thought...well neither would I. Sure, EQ is still surprisingly fun for being 13 years old and 17 expansions deep, but again for the terrible graphics and super dull combat (Hit attack and stare until one or the other dies) at a monthly rate, you'd have to be wearing a foam helmet and a drool bib. Unless of course you haven't deviated from EQ since you started playing it. Which....when I think about it, may be why the community was still helpful and friendly hah.
And today's MMO's aren't worth a monthly fee either..because they lack SO much that set MMORPG's apart from other genre's. few I have found to be entertaining were F2P. But eventually you realize you either barely progress or can't unless you buy from them, Or spend well more than you would with a monthly fee to be able to keep up with everyone else (Not getting curb stomped all the time or left out of groups because your "gear" isn't high enough tier or whatever other BS). So..playing nothing buy Skyrim (A lot of what I wish MMO's had), PAYDAY: The Heist, and Stronghold Kingdoms. Waiting and hoping for something that will more than likely never return.
But would love to see a an MMO with today's combat, graphics and UI's with yesterday's communities, death penatly, open world...and with a bit more challenging...hopefully in an innovative way. Following one due out by an Indie company with a lot of passion...but that only takes you so far.
I think i'd prefer oldschool but with emphasis on PVE cooperation instead of PVE competition. Speaking as a ridiculously competitive person, i'd prefer that aspect to be kept to the PVP side. Fighting other PVE guilds for world spawns and nonsense that requires the 24/7 approach no longer interests me.
How about 'Something different'? I didn't vote at all, because the two options are so diametrically opposed. We've had old-school EQ/UO/AC/SWG games and we've had new-school WoW/Rift/EQ2/Vang/LotRO games. Let's see something original. using new mechanics with new ways to play. Let's see a game break the Tank/Healer/DPS/CC paradigm without trying to go the Tank-Mage route. Let's see personality traits that reflect the way the character is played, choices and decisions that matter. Let's have some long term consequences. Anything, any genre, as long as it is new.
Glad to see anyone write in a couple of lines what many cant in a wall of text. I agree with everything you wrote and there is nothing more to add. Im waiting for the next mmo that brings that to the table, im hoping GW2 can bring it, if not all some of it, but if it doesnt, well, ill just keep on waiting.
That's my gameplay philosophy as well. I like gameplay where I get to judge the 'tipping point' of a situation. You spend the early part of the encounter assessing the situation and setting things up and then you use our main attack in just the right time to devastate the opponent. Sadly too many MMORPG fights are simple grind fights where it's just a matter of attrition.
This is also why I am such an opponent of too much repetition in MMORPGs. If you have to repeat the same fight multiple types, you are just going through the motions since you have solved the fight already and are just doing a memorized 'dance'. To keep me challenged the game needs to switch things up on a regular basis so I get the chance to figure out new tactics and approach the problem from a different angle. These do not have to be complicated things but can add lots of depth to the game. eg. having to fight two healers who support and heal each other can really shake up how you approach simple fights.
Damn, yes! Why do the NPCs never heal eachother? Or spread out so one can attack you from behind? Why are these simple tactics not coded in but we have to have ever increasing numbers instead?
I've always wanted to hear one NPC yell out "Heal Me!" and then see the cleric standing back a way cast a heal at him. This is a simple code, it's used all the time, but can't be used here? (i.e. "send")
And along the same lines, why do we never hear the MOB boss "send" "Archers, get that healer!"? This is how I'd rather see the game become harder, not through advanced level grind and BIG NUMBERS. AI and tactics.
WoW has a few examples of NPCs healing each other though they are mostly scripted events. One set of standard world mobs who exhibited this behaviour were Kurzen's Medicine Men. I first encountered them on a character that did not have stuns or spell interrupts so they were fiendlishly difficult to kill in pairs. No matter which one I targeted the other one would heal it and I was forced to run away or die.
One of my favourite raid fights in WoW was the Faction Champions. It can be an incredibly difficult fight but it was such a different experience that I always admired the design.
What I am looking in games are challenges that take me out of my comfort zone and force me to rethink my strategies and tactics. Grindy, repetetive content has the effect of entrenching me in the comfort zone and does not stimulate me intellectually.
The first time you travel there, the problem (finding a safe path) is interesting. Subsequent times, it's less interesting. After the 5th time, it's way less interesting. You've solved that problem. You're ready for the next one.
You were probably better off immediately being at the next new location, traveling a new path with those same exact types of challenges.
And the travel time itself certainly isn't gameplay. It's just delay. You only need as much as is absolutely necessary to accomplish the design goal (which is setting the feel for the surrounding area and giving the player a chance to breath between combat) Because apart from those goals it's certainly not adding challenge to gameplay.
I don't think MMORPGs should only be lobby PVP games. I don't even PVP in MMORPGs. I think MMORPGs should be a wealth of content to explore and experience -- much like how Skyrim entertains players, despite its weak combat.
I don't think MMORPGs should be a constant re-run of repetitive experience, which is apparently what you think it should be.
Indeed you are right, if you are in a linear, non dynamic themepark lobby mmo. Having to actually get from A to B manually all the time is pointless if the point between is worthless/non dynamic. But in an open world game with dynamic content, with potential player killers, with players fighting over territory and trying to control trade routes... no it wont get boring at all. You haven't "solved the problem" because you are merely interacting with and exploring a dynamic environment.
The purpose of exploration, trade routes and all the other gamut of elements that are completely removed by being able to instantly warp everywhere is not "delay", nor are the time sink mechanisms. Nor are they there just to give "people a breather between combat" (a frankly amazing comment from someone who proclaims not to think all mmorpgs are just lobby pvp games).
"Okay clan x, let's lock down the route into The Golden Citadel. That should throw a spanner in the works of clan y who are making gold by trading along it. Oh hang on wait, they just keep teleporting there anyway lets not bother and go do some baddlefields instead."
The trouble with some gamers nowadays seems to be that all they see is getting from A to B, they never see the potential of what is inbetween those points. Aside from taking a breather from combat...
Your last line is somewhat odd given the fact that I am a proponent of dynamic and non repetitive mechanics. I just happen to believe that travel and the game world offers alot more than simply getting to the next raid point.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Indeed you are right, if you are in a linear, non dynamic themepark lobby mmo. Having to actually get from A to B manually all the time is pointless if the point between is worthless/non dynamic. But in an open world game with dynamic content, with potential player killers, with players fighting over territory and trying to control trade routes... no it wont get boring at all. You haven't "solved the problem" because you are merely interacting with and exploring a dynamic environment.
The trouble with some gamers nowadays seems to be that all they see is getting from A to B, they never see the potential of what is inbetween those points. Aside from taking a breather from combat...
Your last line is somewhat odd given the fact that I am a proponent of dynamic and non repetitive mechanics. I just happen to believe that travel and the game world offers alot more than simply getting to the next raid point.
The actual reality is that the majority of travel in sandboxes is uneventful, time-consuming non-gameplay. Sometimes interspersed with bad gameplay (pirate traps/ganks.)
Honestly apart from the "first trip" to a new location I have literally never experienced good gameplay out of long or repeat travel.
That's why gamers only see A-to-B. Effectively A-to-B is all that exists!
This isn't a "gamers nowadays" thing. I was a gamer long before MMORPGs, and felt MMORPGs had excessive timesinks even back then. There's simply no justification -- except for stretching the game out to make players subscribe longer -- for things to be so diluted by non-gameplay.
The bar decides to charge by the hour, so it waters down the alchohol to make patrons stay longer. You're defending the watered down beer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Think you could really find a nice balance of both. Who is to say SWTOR couldn't pop an expansion that expands the world and adds sandboxey features with more exploration and less linear game play? They probably wouldn't but it could be quite cool. You can build your base themepark then build sandbox tools on top of it because in the end a sandbox is really just a set of tools that allow freedom in the world.
The actual reality is that the majority of travel in sandboxes is uneventful, time-consuming non-gameplay. Sometimes interspersed with bad gameplay (pirate traps/ganks.)
Honestly apart from the "first trip" to a new location I have literally never experienced good gameplay out of long or repeat travel.
That's why gamers only see A-to-B. Effectively A-to-B is all that exists!
This isn't a "gamers nowadays" thing. I was a gamer long before MMORPGs, and felt MMORPGs had excessive timesinks even back then. There's simply no justification -- except for stretching the game out to make players subscribe longer -- for things to be so diluted by non-gameplay.
The bar decides to charge by the hour, so it waters down the alchohol to make patrons stay longer. You're defending the watered down beer.
I typed out a long assed response but then I thought there was pretty much no point looking at your last post, so i'll keep it short and sweet.
A simple point:
Something that takes time is not by extension merely a time sink. If all the mechanic offers is a slower version of something else with no benefits or knock on mechanics whatsoever then it is a time sink. Some people on this site seem to fail to grasp that fundamental point. If the game world offered nothing over and above getting from A to B then you would have a point. Game worlds can and do though, so in essence... you don't.
A simple question:
Does having instant travel to pretty much everywhere within a game world diminish the potential within said game world, are other mechanics impacted upon?
PS: I did wonder how long it would take you to mention the word "gank", even in a topic about travel.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Something that takes time is not by extension merely a time sink. If all the mechanic offers is a slower version of something else with no benefits or knock on mechanics whatsoever then it is a time sink. Some people on this site seem to fail to grasp that fundamental point. If the game world offered nothing over and above getting from A to B then you would have a point. Game worlds can and do though, so in essence... you don't.
The issue really is what a person considers worthwhile 'between A and B' content. You seem to be a PvP fan so for you a chance at a PvP encounter would be worthwhile. Since I find PvP to be largely meaningless, I consider it as non-content for travel purposes. The game world would need interesting dynamic non-PvP content for me to consider the travel time from A to B to be worthwhile. Most games just do not provide that and thus make travel time meaningless.
I typed out a long assed response but then I thought there was pretty much no point looking at your last post, so i'll keep it short and sweet.
A simple point:
Something that takes time is not by extension merely a time sink. If all the mechanic offers is a slower version of something else with no benefits or knock on mechanics whatsoever then it is a time sink. Some people on this site seem to fail to grasp that fundamental point. If the game world offered nothing over and above getting from A to B then you would have a point. Game worlds can and do though, so in essence... you don't.
A simple question:
Does having instant travel to pretty much everywhere within a game world diminish the potential within said game world, are other mechanics impacted upon?
PS: I did wonder how long it would take you to mention the word "gank", even in a topic about travel.
Your "point" seems to be in agreement with my last post. Because the common experience of travel in games is devoid of gameplay, that type of travel is indeed undesireable.
Instant travel to "anywhere" is bad and never what was requested. Instant travel to anywhere I've been before is what's important (with the caveat that the "first trip" travel should either include interesting gameplay or be eliminated.) Players want content, and traveling somewhere the first time (assuming a reasonable density of interesting things happening during the trip) is exactly what players want.
I don't see what "gank's" relevance is here, given that players overwhelmingly feel ganking is pretty lousy gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Something that takes time is not by extension merely a time sink. If all the mechanic offers is a slower version of something else with no benefits or knock on mechanics whatsoever then it is a time sink. Some people on this site seem to fail to grasp that fundamental point. If the game world offered nothing over and above getting from A to B then you would have a point. Game worlds can and do though, so in essence... you don't.
The issue really is what a person considers worthwhile 'between A and B' content. You seem to be a PvP fan so for you a chance at a PvP encounter would be worthwhile. Since I find PvP to be largely meaningless, I consider it as non-content for travel purposes. The game world would need interesting dynamic non-PvP content for me to consider the travel time from A to B to be worthwhile. Most games just do not provide that and thus make travel time meaningless.
If the points in between A and B are meaningless, then there is zero point in the game world existing. All you need is a queuing lobby between instances with a chat box. Which is pretty much the way mmos are going.
If the game world offers nothing then I agree, having to travel through it is pointless and indeed alot of games do make the game world pointless to a greater extent. But the game world can be dynamic and it can offer content to non pvp centric players even if part of that mechanism is pvp driven.
Look at EVE, a great deal of people within the game enjoy systems which are not directly (within the individual players scope) pvp related. Many love it for the economy for example, and yet that economy is driven (to a great extent) by the pvp and the fact that the game enviroment can be controlled etc. So while you feel the pvp is pointless, it is in fact driving a large part of the non pvp content, just as non pvp content indirectly drives pvp.
If you are only interested in pve combat and nothing else, not even the economy and the environment is not dynamic in a pve sense then it will be pointless. But then a raiding lobby mmo is no different to a pvp lobby mmo.
I'd like to make it clear i'm not extolling no fast travel at all btw.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Blah blah blah blah. Axehilt, go peddle your pro-WoW style, want everything handed to me, make it a console RPG garbage elsewhere. New sure must be what is wanted since it is buried in this poll.
No one is saying they find inconveinience fun. It's only inconveinient to those who don't like to think or work a bit for rewards (Which is also a form of fun and gratification that most new gamers can't seem to grasp). Yet again...this is what seperates MMORPG's from console gaming. You want rewarded and to feel 1337 quickly, go play console games, or stick to WoW.
The inconveniences we're talking about are travel time or time-consuming death penalty or manual group-finding.
Are you really going to sit there and argue that travel time requires "thought" or "work"? That's preposterous.
In other words you prefer Frodo port directly to Mt. Doom instead of having to travel there?
- Old school - Completely open world to do what ever you like, make your own fun, not much story. Half content solo, half group. Many starter areas, two factions along with PvP. Deep rich dungeons. Guild making criteria is set very high so you don't have 50 guilds for only 2000 players per server, instead maybe 10 meaningful guilds. Manual travel, such as running, harder to achieve mounts, and VERY FEW fast travel ways, almost to the point of being slow paced and tiring. Each fight is somewhat hard that involves skill. NOT MANY QUEST CHAINS, and you can take all quest at once in your zone so you can really play with random others in your area. No dungeon finder. Yet great graphics and large world. Leveling much slower so you can make friends as your personal story unfolds. ( Understand I'm talking about old school, BUT with better graphics, problems of the past solved )
Life would be harder.
- New style - Very rich story driven, some voice acting done great and fits well into the game. Graphics amazingly high, better than an old school style, but somewhat on rails. Deep rich dungeons, with a dungeon finder. Two factions with PvP. Quest are somewhat chain quest, making it more difficult to play with random others you find in your zone and guilds, but the story behind it makes it enjoyable with a nice reward at the end of the chain. Fast travel hubs so you could get any place fast instead of the time sink of Old school. Mobs are somewhat easy, so you can solo better and feel more powerful. Somewhat fast leveling but end game is rewarding.
Life is easy, but enjoyable.
Well you ruined it right there OP.
In my opinion, no PvP is worth anything at all unless it's Three or More Faction PvP.
e.g. DAoC
Since you called the terms of the poll OP, and since I can support neither option you present, my vote is: None of the Above.
*IF* you modified the "Old School" to be a minimum of three faction PvP along with most other features you list, then my vote would have been: Old School. Other than your two faction PvP I object to, all the other features you list I would want and seek in my favorite MMO.
Your "point" seems to be in agreement with my last post. Because the common experience of travel in games is devoid of gameplay, that type of travel is indeed undesireable.
Instant travel to "anywhere" is bad and never what was requested. Instant travel to anywhere I've been before is what's important (with the caveat that the "first trip" travel should either include interesting gameplay or be eliminated.) Players want content, and traveling somewhere the first time (assuming a reasonable density of interesting things happening during the trip) is exactly what players want.
I don't see what "gank's" relevance is here, given that players overwhelmingly feel ganking is pretty lousy gameplay.
My point is in no way, shape, or form in agreement with any of your posts in this thread. You just seem to fail to grasp what the game world can offer in a mmo and how instant travel would balls it up.
Instant travel anywhere you have been once before.. oh dear. I did wonder why you had failed to answer the simple question I asked but after that chestnut it is no great surprise. In a static world themepark or any of the loby game mmos then yes, that makes sense. But that is not what I am talking about now is it.
It's quite simple really, having instant travel removes potential mechanics, it removes possibilities, it removes the point of the game world.
It is also quite simple that the "second trip" is only boring if the content you pass through is static. If it is dynamic (which it can indeed be) then it is not boring.
Perhaps you could answer the question now: Does having instant travel to pretty much everywhere within a game world diminish the potential within said game world, are other mechanics impacted upon?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
Yes, and also as I mentioned before: this forum is full of a completely inaccurate ratio of oldschool refugees. (The happy MMORPG players aren't on a forum complaining: they're out playing MMORPGs!)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm a happy mmorpg player lol. just waiting for my game to launch,
I picked old school. I usually like to play games that offer a lot of freedom. It is nice to have story there if you want it though, but more to guide me through and adventure as opposed to telling me who my character is. I like to make my own backstory.
For the most part though, I enjoy games that let me go out into the world and discover it and myself at my own pace. I get bored very easily, so killing 10 or 20 of something over and over gets old very quickly. I have done faction grinds in themepark games because I wanted the rewards, but at the end I wanted to slit my wrists.
If i was in college or unempolyed again, yes, I would have all the time in the world to play.
Your gener does as much whining as the next, you guys can't even agree on one game or a common ground. Everytime a new game is being developed you guys rejoice. As soon as more and more info comes out about it, all you need is that one thing to set you off. It's never good enough becuase it's not old school enough.
It's hardly idiotic! Seeing someone state the obvious is so hard to absorb isn't it?
Let's see:
If it's too slow it's not fast enough! But wait if it's too fast it's not slow enough.
If it takes to long it's too grindy! But if it's not grindy then it's too short.
You are right, seeing how many of those games then were the 1st of it's kind, but now, you have the option to choose to play some of them still.
Old school with optional good storyline and quests please
Er, to be fair no generation will ever agree on one game. Why would you expect that? People are different.
But one thing nearly everyone want is dense content -- for our playtime to frequently be chock-full of interesting things to do. If that's called "NOW NOW NOW", so be it, it's what we want.
And there's no real reason it should be any other way. If a developer knew how to create a neverending stream of new (and interesting) content, they would do it in a heartbeat! That's exactly what players want.
What players don't want, and the odd direction Goat seems to support, is stepping in the opposite direction: intentionally adding timesinks where they're not needed.
As always, players want gameplay and gameplay is measured by how interesting the decisions are. The genre seeks to slice off the fat so that it's lean and composed of the most interesting decisions, but some players are mysteriously obsessed over the fat.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm not expecting them to all, just an observation a trend I keep seeing on these boards. The MMORPG market is much bigger than it was before, it's pretty obvious people get pulled in more directions now. There were so few MMORPG then so it makes sense that it was a much tighter group and community. The MMO generation simply exploded.
I like to play a main game with the old-school feel along with big demands and some games on the side for quick 10-30 min fixes.
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It's getting to the point that many mmo players DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. I'm not picking on anyone here.
It's been a long time since we had a leaving breathing world, full of people playing together, having a community, getting together to do open world quest, hand picked teams to do dungeons, the danger of getting their, helping strangers with a hard quest later to become friends. GUILDS that work ! Sure few games have end game content where some of this comes together. But most quit a game before reaching this point.
Important :
People become board because they are alone. You have kill ten rats quest both in old school and new style mmo's. But it's much more fun killing ten hard rats with a bunch of people.
An epic night for me is a well oiled group working togeather....Not a Fake-me-out fast half hour dungeon finder instanced cave they called a dungeon where no one talks....I'm sure most all of you feel nothing at the end of the night the way mmo's are made now !
I say players DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER because we only have old mmos like EQ, Vanilla WoW, DAOC and EQ2 to compare it to. A new mmo with a do what you like feel would be welcome by teenagers and up, but I guess the 6 year olds would not like it....And as it stands the market is made for the 6 year olds. This creates a problem because now everyone gets board after 30 days, 6-60 blind crippled or crazy !
A community is not made with :
- Dungeon of Battle ground finder
- Rifts
- Flash points
- Chain quest
I'm old school.
EQ made me that way, the stress, enjoyment , struggle and friends that got me to lvl 60 in 2000 on my wizard were worth it. The many many battles, groups, and trains in KC . The hell levels , the epic weapon quests, the boat ride from Butcher Block to North Freeport . Camping the AC for jboots, the Epic 14 hour corpse runs in the plains. The ability to crowd control 5 mobs in KC while the group dealt to the main 6th mob with my bard........
I miss it
But truely i miss the open game play of EQ, where your direction in the game was controled by your decisions and not directed by the Dev's.
The reason why the new school is succeeding more and more and you are seeing less elements of Hardcore game design in MMORPG's are two reasons. This precious commodity called time and Balance.
I played SWG I quit it I didn't need the second job I would much rather spend time with my friends also after playing KOTOR SWG just stopped being fun. Played vanilla WoW and I loved that up till 60 when it became a raid/grind fest on the neverending loot treadmill to stay relevant in that game, so after awhile and getting busier in real life quit that. Played City of Heroes and left that because of lack of anything to do at Endgame at the time most fun I've had probably leveling and getting to endgame was that game though. Played LoTRO and got to endgame and once again it was a gear grind to stay relevant and complete stuff or go level an alt, since I id not see myself sticking with it for a long time left that too. I had other things to do with my time!
Hardcore game design survives in single player games because your not competing with anyone your not trying to stay relevant or be balanced with anyone else. Right now in MMORPG's you are and that's why SWTOR is coming out with the most casual friendly game design yet. They are targeting the masses because they want to make money and for a first MMO why would a developer want to risk one of the world's most lucrative IP's and mess it up by trying to be two things. I would love to see some sort of fusion of the genres but then you risk having hardcore gamers complain that one guy got the same loot as them by playing "easy mode".
Devs don't want to deal with that and don't care so for everyone its now just easy mode until someone comes up with a new and incredibly innovative architecture that melds the two perfectly or hardcore gamers accept that there will be an easy mode on their games that bring the same riches and rewards as the hardcore way.
The masses have spoken and their voice is louder and since I am one of them I say long live new style MMORPGs a game that I can play when I have time, or I can play for hours and a game that I can put down and not fall so far behind I need to hire someone to play for me. That's the kind of game I love and I am glad it's coming out in SWTOR.
I am employed and I still played MMO's. I say played because their isn't anything worth playing currently (quit Allods 3+ months ago) IMO. But when I did play, I had a job, a daughter, amongst other things. I know they take time, and I am in no hurry to cap out so I can sit in capital cities whining for more content like everyone else. That is what sets console gaming and MMORPG's apart. One is made for instant gratification, the other not so much, or to an extent...when they first started.
Now they have become nothing more than console style RPG's that HAPPEN to have massive multi-player. Funneled, heavily instanced, too much instant travel...and just cookie cutters of each other with no new innovation or creativity. Same crap, different wrapper.
As an old schooler myself...I'll tell ya, I went back to EQ1 about 4 months ago, even managed to get my account back up I haven't played in 7 years! Anyways, I had a lot of fun....for about a month. Yes, the nostalgia set in a bit...but the community was actually just as it was when I left. People were helpful and friendly, answered question, and even gave you some low level starting items. And despite the horrid graphics and dull combat system...just got me immersed so much more than that nostalgia.
But let's be serious though...would you pay $15 a month to play an Atari 2600 after having had a PS3 and/or XBox 360? Yeah, that's what I thought...well neither would I. Sure, EQ is still surprisingly fun for being 13 years old and 17 expansions deep, but again for the terrible graphics and super dull combat (Hit attack and stare until one or the other dies) at a monthly rate, you'd have to be wearing a foam helmet and a drool bib. Unless of course you haven't deviated from EQ since you started playing it. Which....when I think about it, may be why the community was still helpful and friendly hah.
And today's MMO's aren't worth a monthly fee either..because they lack SO much that set MMORPG's apart from other genre's. few I have found to be entertaining were F2P. But eventually you realize you either barely progress or can't unless you buy from them, Or spend well more than you would with a monthly fee to be able to keep up with everyone else (Not getting curb stomped all the time or left out of groups because your "gear" isn't high enough tier or whatever other BS). So..playing nothing buy Skyrim (A lot of what I wish MMO's had), PAYDAY: The Heist, and Stronghold Kingdoms. Waiting and hoping for something that will more than likely never return.
But would love to see a an MMO with today's combat, graphics and UI's with yesterday's communities, death penatly, open world...and with a bit more challenging...hopefully in an innovative way. Following one due out by an Indie company with a lot of passion...but that only takes you so far.
I think i'd prefer oldschool but with emphasis on PVE cooperation instead of PVE competition. Speaking as a ridiculously competitive person, i'd prefer that aspect to be kept to the PVP side. Fighting other PVE guilds for world spawns and nonsense that requires the 24/7 approach no longer interests me.
Glad to see anyone write in a couple of lines what many cant in a wall of text. I agree with everything you wrote and there is nothing more to add. Im waiting for the next mmo that brings that to the table, im hoping GW2 can bring it, if not all some of it, but if it doesnt, well, ill just keep on waiting.
WoW has a few examples of NPCs healing each other though they are mostly scripted events. One set of standard world mobs who exhibited this behaviour were Kurzen's Medicine Men. I first encountered them on a character that did not have stuns or spell interrupts so they were fiendlishly difficult to kill in pairs. No matter which one I targeted the other one would heal it and I was forced to run away or die.
One of my favourite raid fights in WoW was the Faction Champions. It can be an incredibly difficult fight but it was such a different experience that I always admired the design.
What I am looking in games are challenges that take me out of my comfort zone and force me to rethink my strategies and tactics. Grindy, repetetive content has the effect of entrenching me in the comfort zone and does not stimulate me intellectually.
Indeed you are right, if you are in a linear, non dynamic themepark lobby mmo. Having to actually get from A to B manually all the time is pointless if the point between is worthless/non dynamic. But in an open world game with dynamic content, with potential player killers, with players fighting over territory and trying to control trade routes... no it wont get boring at all. You haven't "solved the problem" because you are merely interacting with and exploring a dynamic environment.
The purpose of exploration, trade routes and all the other gamut of elements that are completely removed by being able to instantly warp everywhere is not "delay", nor are the time sink mechanisms. Nor are they there just to give "people a breather between combat" (a frankly amazing comment from someone who proclaims not to think all mmorpgs are just lobby pvp games).
"Okay clan x, let's lock down the route into The Golden Citadel. That should throw a spanner in the works of clan y who are making gold by trading along it. Oh hang on wait, they just keep teleporting there anyway lets not bother and go do some baddlefields instead."
The trouble with some gamers nowadays seems to be that all they see is getting from A to B, they never see the potential of what is inbetween those points. Aside from taking a breather from combat...
Your last line is somewhat odd given the fact that I am a proponent of dynamic and non repetitive mechanics. I just happen to believe that travel and the game world offers alot more than simply getting to the next raid point.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The actual reality is that the majority of travel in sandboxes is uneventful, time-consuming non-gameplay. Sometimes interspersed with bad gameplay (pirate traps/ganks.)
Honestly apart from the "first trip" to a new location I have literally never experienced good gameplay out of long or repeat travel.
That's why gamers only see A-to-B. Effectively A-to-B is all that exists!
This isn't a "gamers nowadays" thing. I was a gamer long before MMORPGs, and felt MMORPGs had excessive timesinks even back then. There's simply no justification -- except for stretching the game out to make players subscribe longer -- for things to be so diluted by non-gameplay.
The bar decides to charge by the hour, so it waters down the alchohol to make patrons stay longer. You're defending the watered down beer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Think you could really find a nice balance of both. Who is to say SWTOR couldn't pop an expansion that expands the world and adds sandboxey features with more exploration and less linear game play? They probably wouldn't but it could be quite cool. You can build your base themepark then build sandbox tools on top of it because in the end a sandbox is really just a set of tools that allow freedom in the world.
I typed out a long assed response but then I thought there was pretty much no point looking at your last post, so i'll keep it short and sweet.
A simple point:
Something that takes time is not by extension merely a time sink. If all the mechanic offers is a slower version of something else with no benefits or knock on mechanics whatsoever then it is a time sink. Some people on this site seem to fail to grasp that fundamental point. If the game world offered nothing over and above getting from A to B then you would have a point. Game worlds can and do though, so in essence... you don't.
A simple question:
Does having instant travel to pretty much everywhere within a game world diminish the potential within said game world, are other mechanics impacted upon?
PS: I did wonder how long it would take you to mention the word "gank", even in a topic about travel.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The issue really is what a person considers worthwhile 'between A and B' content. You seem to be a PvP fan so for you a chance at a PvP encounter would be worthwhile. Since I find PvP to be largely meaningless, I consider it as non-content for travel purposes. The game world would need interesting dynamic non-PvP content for me to consider the travel time from A to B to be worthwhile. Most games just do not provide that and thus make travel time meaningless.
Your "point" seems to be in agreement with my last post. Because the common experience of travel in games is devoid of gameplay, that type of travel is indeed undesireable.
Instant travel to "anywhere" is bad and never what was requested. Instant travel to anywhere I've been before is what's important (with the caveat that the "first trip" travel should either include interesting gameplay or be eliminated.) Players want content, and traveling somewhere the first time (assuming a reasonable density of interesting things happening during the trip) is exactly what players want.
I don't see what "gank's" relevance is here, given that players overwhelmingly feel ganking is pretty lousy gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If the points in between A and B are meaningless, then there is zero point in the game world existing. All you need is a queuing lobby between instances with a chat box. Which is pretty much the way mmos are going.
If the game world offers nothing then I agree, having to travel through it is pointless and indeed alot of games do make the game world pointless to a greater extent. But the game world can be dynamic and it can offer content to non pvp centric players even if part of that mechanism is pvp driven.
Look at EVE, a great deal of people within the game enjoy systems which are not directly (within the individual players scope) pvp related. Many love it for the economy for example, and yet that economy is driven (to a great extent) by the pvp and the fact that the game enviroment can be controlled etc. So while you feel the pvp is pointless, it is in fact driving a large part of the non pvp content, just as non pvp content indirectly drives pvp.
If you are only interested in pve combat and nothing else, not even the economy and the environment is not dynamic in a pve sense then it will be pointless. But then a raiding lobby mmo is no different to a pvp lobby mmo.
I'd like to make it clear i'm not extolling no fast travel at all btw.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
In other words you prefer Frodo port directly to Mt. Doom instead of having to travel there?
Well you ruined it right there OP.
In my opinion, no PvP is worth anything at all unless it's Three or More Faction PvP.
e.g. DAoC
Since you called the terms of the poll OP, and since I can support neither option you present, my vote is: None of the Above.
*IF* you modified the "Old School" to be a minimum of three faction PvP along with most other features you list, then my vote would have been: Old School. Other than your two faction PvP I object to, all the other features you list I would want and seek in my favorite MMO.
My point is in no way, shape, or form in agreement with any of your posts in this thread. You just seem to fail to grasp what the game world can offer in a mmo and how instant travel would balls it up.
Instant travel anywhere you have been once before.. oh dear. I did wonder why you had failed to answer the simple question I asked but after that chestnut it is no great surprise. In a static world themepark or any of the loby game mmos then yes, that makes sense. But that is not what I am talking about now is it.
It's quite simple really, having instant travel removes potential mechanics, it removes possibilities, it removes the point of the game world.
It is also quite simple that the "second trip" is only boring if the content you pass through is static. If it is dynamic (which it can indeed be) then it is not boring.
Perhaps you could answer the question now: Does having instant travel to pretty much everywhere within a game world diminish the potential within said game world, are other mechanics impacted upon?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."